Newbie 1027: Trick or Treat! [Game Over]

[Neruz]

*Ninjas KittyMo*

Hah! I've replaced Huntman, but KittyMo hasn't told you yet because she's

too slow!

^ Yeah, that. ~ KittyMo

[Neruz]

Heh.

I shall now have to go back and re-read this mess, if someone could provide a quick recap in case i miss anything, that would be useful.

[Neruz]

It's nice to see you guys avoided giant walls o' text until page 9 >.<

[Neruz]

Alrighty, i've reread most of the prior stuff, although i did skim over a few of the larger posts and i really have to ask: Why didn't you lynch park? He is, by far, the scummiest person in the game, with andrew coming in a sort of middling second, but the only reason andrew is looking scummy is because he seems to be siding with park on and off. Park's game starts off a bit odd, although nothing particulary outstanding. He makes a couple of rediculous points about there being a high chance of the IC or SE's being scum (Hint: It's random), but then we get this post:

@ Thor - Why would you ask me something like "Why don't you vote Mothrax?"? Did you? Did Anyone? With what reason except for his jump on the popular wagon?

Let me break it down for you.
You say you are town.
You say I am town and am voting you for 2 reasons;
1. Because I am not scum
2. Because obviously one hlaf of the scum team will be either an IC or an SE and I know it's not me.

You're an SE.
I'm an IC.
You think/know we're both town.
Who does that leave as the obvious scum? The other SE. Mothrax. Why, by your logic, are you not voting him? He has to be scum, right?

Ahh.. i get you now. How foolish of me to push on that my-logic but not do it myself.
Yeah. I think that might just be it.

@@Vote: Mothrax

He seems like a decent choice option for me who has an opinion that at least ONE of the more-experienced people are scum.
@ Andrew - You replaced in for a Newbie who apparently didnt even know that the game started.

Ho-lee

shit.

Thor points out an apparant flaw in his logic and rather than fight for his view,

he cedes that Thor was right and he should have been voting Mothrax all along.

Could he be any more passive? This entire post reeks of being afraid to draw attention, it stinks badly. He doesn't even go on to justify his vote on Mothrax until the next post,

after

making it, and the justifications themselves appear to bring pretty much nothing new to the table as well as containing this gem:

A popular bandwagon...won't make much difference when I join in.

It's a popular bandwagon!

Might as well hop on!

He then backpedals hard and carefully goes out of his way to say that he was all wrong before (without actually retracting anything of importance) and that he deserves a second chance.

Once the heat drops off him for reasons that continue to elude me, he starts trying to push Maniamax off him rather than actually scumhunting; his posts against Mania are purely defensive and serve no purpose other than to try and get Mania to remove his vote, despite claiming to need a chance to do some real scumhunting

he does not do any scumhunting at all.

Then he goes V\LA (it happens), but comes back with this:

More importantly, Guderian overtook me in gaining popularity from the town's top-death-list. That can't be good can it?

._.

Also note that the rest of the post is still purely defensive.

After that, the heat is pretty much off park, everyone is on Guderian and i really don't see why. He made a couple of ovbious newb mistakes, but nothing even remotely worth the kind of attention he's getting. But hot damn is that good for park, and he shows it, by basically turning completely passive. He sits on Mothrax despite outright stating that his scum signal on him is getting weaker and weaker. In fact park has declined to state anything new for quite some time now despite some extremely interesting and enlightening discussion. The interesting thing is that he seems to be pretty sure that Guderian is town, apparantly he's the only person to recognise this.

And then, all of a sudden, the hammer. And this, this this this this this:

He claimed Townie, so its not really a harm for the town if it were a mislynch.
The game needs to progress and there seems less and less room for Guderian to survive this town today...so why not it be me to send him away?

Good. God.

He just hammered someone he was pretty sure was town, because 'it's not really a harm for the town if it's a mislynch' and 'the game needs to progress'. I have never seen a more passive hammer, i didn't even think it was possible to be

that

passive when hammering, but park has proved me wrong. This in itself is pretty damning, but as soon as day starts we see this:

First of all, series of unfortunate events occured...
1) My hammer on Guderian led to yet another mislynch on Day 1.
Observations taken: Chkflip blames me for hammering although he was hellbent on lynching Guderian himself. Bazz thinks we had to take more time on lynching although he went for unpopular players in this game. [Popular=People Try To Kill Them].

2) Charlie [I actually would like to address this player as Mothrax, but anyways] died on Night 1. Similar suggestions to what Thor said can be drawn from this.
Observations: No one really went for Mothrax during Day 1. He didnt post much but enough to earn my vote on him. Interesting to see why anyone would kill this guy (am I parroting someone here?)

@ Huntman : Cya "confirmed" Town.
@ Chkflip : I dont regret lynching Guderian. However just because i threw the last vote on him doesnt mean that it is me who KILLED him. You all contributed 1/5 of his lynch. Yeah, my vote was kinda crucial to the Day's end wasn't it? But the Day's end was not the reason i gave my vote. It was to lynch Guderian because you guys (andrew, Thor, Hunt, Chk) convinced me of his possibility. If there was ONE person in this game who shud feel guilt from Guderian's lynch, its Andrew. Not me.

"A series of unfortunate events"? "My hammer led to a mislynch"? Could you possibly try harder to dissipate responsibility for that truely shitty hammer? I mean

really

.


Also note what we see from park's other posts today: He's not advancing anything of his own, and he claims he was "75%" sure that Gude was scum when he hammered. I'm sorry,

WHAT?

:

He claimed Townie, so its not really a harm for the town if it were a mislynch.
The game needs to progress and there seems less and less room for Guderian to survive this town today...so why not it be me to send him away?

THIS IS NOT 75% SURE.

Bazz says it well here:

@Park - With another week left before the deadline, and a number of players having yet to fully comment on the cases against Gude, Chk and Thor, that hammer is the most anti-town thing I've seen all game.

And i completely agree.

VOTE: @@parknourie for being blatantly ovbious scum who somehow managed to avoid the lynch d1, but i'll be

damned

if he let him escape.

[Neruz]

@neruz, i dont like you. remember that your replacee huntman basically thought mr guderian was suspicious (so did i) and he thought gud was very suspisious indeed. now, you cant just come in here as a replacement, forget everything ur replacee did.

I absolutely can and will. Huntman presumably had his own reasons for thinking Gude was suspcious, judging by his vote and posts he was sucked up into the bandwagon. But Huntman's reasons are not my reasons, i cannot and will not read his mind and then play the game the same way he would. I can only play the game the way i will, and i am doing just that, and i cannot see any reason why Gude was lynched over park.

@Huntman

- what are your thoughts on andrew's playstyle in this game as compared to his other games?

Huntman's not here anymore. Only us Neruzes.


I'm not seeing any buddying from chkflip here. He brought his own points to the table which all seem valid to me and i must say i find it

very

interesting that his chief antagonist is andrew, who not only happens to be my second suspect but is also apparantly

very

much against my acting on my own and drawing my own conclusions against park instead of pretending to be Huntman and doing whatever it is Huntman was doing.

lets have an example

person A: IM THE COP
mod: person A has been replaced by Person B
person B: sup, im L1 right, ok im a townie.
everyone: LUL WUT

Yes because counterclaiming your own role claim is

exactly the same

as different people drawing different conclusions.[/sarcasm]

firsty, as some dude said earlier, scum justify hammers etc, he just hammered.

Indeed they do, scum often justify hammers to try and draw flak from a mislynch away from them.

Interesting how park did exactly that.

@EVERYBODY

A quick question; is being the hammer on town scummy - yes/no? (if you feel the need to add reasons I'm fine hearing them.

Depends. Often the simple fact of the matter is that a town player ends up looking scummy. Hammering in and of itself is neither a town or a scum tell, it's

how

you hammer which determines if it's towny or scummy. Town and scum react differently to mislynches; scum usually try and push the blame for the hammer off them by looking like they're not responsible, they also often set themselves up so that it doesn't look like it's their fault because they know it will be a mislynch. Town, on the other hand, tend to be surprised at a mislynch, but justified in doing so because townies do not lynch people if they do not feel that the person is justified in being lynched. Therefore town have no need to try and avoid responsibility for the hammer and they have no way of preparing for a mislynch.

So, to recap; hammering in and of itself is not scummy. Hammering

in certain ways

is

scummy.

[Neruz]

@Everyone

- What do you make of my suspicions of Thor and andrew? Whilst I have voted Thor, andrew comes in at a close second. I suspect that at least one of them is scum, if not both of them together (looking back, a scumparing between the two looks feasible). The cases the two of them have presented are poor (which has been proven by Gude's town flip), and whilst they could just be bad players, I suspect that, in fact, they are scum pushing for mislynches.

I'm right with you on andrew, and while i can see where you're coming from with Thor, i'm not sure i

completely

agree, i still think park is scummier and a better lynch but i will cede you that Thor

is

looking less town with each passing post.

This line in particular is worrying:

I was fully expecting a well reasoned case from you, only one that you hadn't quite put down on the thread yet, which is why I asked you for your reasoning.

Didn't you call my Gud case yesterday terrible? Why would you expect a well reasoned case now?

So we have park openly lying, andrew being primarily incomprehensible and Thor admitting his case is poorly reasoned. If i didn't know for certain we had 2 scum, i might consider 3 scum at this point. Unfortunately this is not the case, so i know at least one of these 3 are town, which is annoying, because whichever one that is is playing a

really

bad game.

I still, however, maintain that park is the scummiest of the lot. While Thor and andrew are both presenting some rather solid scumtells, park's hammer on D1 eclipses anything they've done so far.


I also find it interesting that despite jumping on me for my initial attack on park, andrew has since decided to ignore me altogether and has instead attempted to tunnel on chkflip. I find this interesting because chkflip did basically agree with me about park, i don't see buddying in his vote and it

is

possible for townies to agree with each other. However, his vote following mine does leave him open to buddying accusations, and that combined with the fact that there is more content from him makes him a much easier target than me. This is concerning, because it looks like, from my perspective at any rate, that andrew is chainsawing what he percieves to be the easy lynch.

[Neruz]

@Thor

You're going to have to provide some sort of corroborating evidence that Bazz thought your case on Gude was poorly reasoned; i don't particulary enjoy the idea of reading back again XD

I may have jumped the gun a bit. I will admit that you did catch my eye a couple of times on D1.

[Neruz]

excuse me sir, where did i 'jump' on you for your initial attack on park? i was merely making a point that mr huntman had completely 180 degree views from you.

In your post following mine, you jumped me. Maybe we have different definitions of 'jumping', but that post came off as you jumping on me from my point of view.

remember thor accusing park at the start of day 1? your case is similar to his.

That would probably be

because park is scummy.

then, chkflip, its not an 'easy' target to accuse of buddying. HE IS BUDDYING. and as someone said, he is 'trying hard to not seem like buddying'

I disagree, there is a difference between buddying and agreeing with someone. chkflip agrees with me, i do not think he is buddying with me.

-does not repeat anything you posted. ( so wow, theres 2 completely different cases on park) he wants to not seem like copying you, so he doesnt post up points that you posts

That's how you develop your own case. If he'd repeated what i had posted and then voted park,

that

would be buddying. Instead he noted my points and that he agreed with them and brought his own points to the table, which is how townies work with each other.

If every time two townies agree on something, it's 'buddying', then lynching anyone is pretty much impossible.

p.s. english is not my first language, stop insulting me of being 'incomprehensible'

I'm not insulting you, i'm stating a fact. Half of what you post is completely incomprehensible, which in mafia; a game primarily about

communication

, is kind of an issue.

Are you jumping the gun, or do you think I look scummy?

I may have jumped the gun with that specific accusation, but yes i think you look scummier than a town player should. Had park not made his terrible, terrible d1 hammer i would probably be gunning for you at the moment instead of him.

Why do I need to provide corroborating evidence? All I did was ask if you were trying to misunderstand me, not if you did or did not accept my take on events. Again, when you read that commentary what part of it made you go "Thor is claiming he makes bad cases"? Now that you've read my simplified version do you still believe this? (I'm guessing not, since now you want evidence on BAZZ, but I sort of like to be a bit pedantic at times)

Because i have clearly made an error somewhere and would like to know where. Due to the nature of the game i ovbiously can't just blindly trust what someone says, i interpreted that exchange as Bazz accusing you of having a poorly reasoned case and you agreeing with him, apparantly i was mistaken and you were instead being slightly sarcastic in relation to D1's case, unfortunately i must have missed Bazz calling your d1 case poorly reasoned as well, so if he did some proof would be nice so i can find out where i made the error.

[Neruz]

Oh god i'm getting Bazz mixed up with chkflip. Aagh.

Given the nature of D1 based on what i've read back, i would be more inclined to think that Bazz is town who didn't see why Gude was getting lynched, same as me. Although to be honest were i scum in that position i wouldn't want anything to do with the Gude lynch because seriously, it's just a plain terrible lynch.

He called my case terrible Day 1 and suggested I was scummy for it.
He called my case terrible Day 2 and suggested I was scummy for it

because he fully expected better reasoned cases from me

Him calling my cases bad Day 1 was perfectly fine and, at worst, might indicate he was scum defending Gud a bit for town credit, but could just as easily be town with an accurate assessment of the case. Him calling my case bad on Day 2 because he expected good reasoning out of me suggested he was either lying then or had been lying Day 1. Sarcastic or not I certainly never agreed that my case was bad.

mmm, I'm not so sure about this. I mean, if it was the end of the game or he knew outside the game that you consistantly made poor cases it would be an odd turn of phrase, but otherwise i think you're putting too much weight on that. It usually takes more than one instance of poor judgement to establish a pattern and given that you are the IC it seems perfectly reasonable to expect a well-reasoned case.

What do you think about his switch in attitude from 'either Thor or anderw is scum' to 'Thor and andrew are scum' after I claimed a town read on andrew?

I'm not seeing where he declared that either you or andrew were scum. You, andrew, hunt and chk have been his top suspects all game, at the moment he appears to have narrowed it down to you and andrew, with a stay on hunt\me until i've posted more, so his conclusion that you two are scum doesn't seem outside his original suspicions.

[Neruz]

Andrew, you may have said you 'merely stated', but that is

not

how it came across at the time.

Yes, i did read your post. I disagree with you, chk is not buddying, he merely agrees with me.

no shit, so all his points has got nothing to do with yours. if i wanted to vote park now, i would have to make up some random shit instead of just pointing out the points that are already made. i think all the points about park are out there, so how the heck can i find some more cases against park if i want to bandwagon? answer = no i cant. there we go= the next person who hops on without 1000 new reasons is buddying. is that ur definition?

See, this is the kind of rediculous crap that doesn't make any sense. No, you do not have to come up with new reasons to avoid buddying, it helps but sometimes literally all you can do is say that you agree.

The trick to determining buddying is to look for unexpected changes. If two players have been pushing another player for awhile and then both agree that the other player is scummy, that probably isn't buddying. If a third player who has previously not been paying much attention to the argument suddenly chimes in that he agrees to, that

is

buddying.

and urimplying that im purposely scerwing up the game by making u guys cant communicate?

No, i'm stating that about a third to one half of your posts are largely incomprehensible,

regardless of whether you have a legitimate reason or not.

Having a reason for being incomprehensible does not in any way change the reality of the fact that your english is terrible and often ambiguous if not outright unreadable. This is not an insult, it's reality.

someone Has to hammer, and a 2 week day is better than a 3 week day. 3 weeks day give headaches with a lot of cases etc

No, it is not. Several players were still scumhunting and a conclusion had not in any way been met. park had concluded in his prior post that he thought Gude was town, he then suddenly did a 180 and hammered Gude and now claims he thought Gude was 75% scum,

blatantly contradicting himself.

It's not the hammer which is scummy, it's how he did it. Are you even reading my posts? Because it sounds like you're strawmanning at the moment.

no shit, that is why u READ the thread instead of doing what chkflip did on day 1, put park on the 'hot seat'

Hey you know what, i'm human, i make mistakes, i had to read ~16 pages of game i had not previously been involved with so it should come as no surprised that i missed some stuff. Bite me.

[Neruz]

You're starting to get the wine out there Thor, might want to avoid that.

[Neruz]

Just making sure you knew you were standing on dangerous ground with some of those statements.

[Neruz]

Invoking WIFOM is

always

dangerous, not the least of which because it gets everyone on edge. The instant you start saying things like "Scum wouldn't d X, A did X, therefore A isn't scum" you open up a can of worms. Sometimes you have to open up the can, and inevitably the wine enters the game at some point, but it's still dangerous. I know some people on MS seem to react incredibly poorly and treat directly invoking WIFOM as a huge scumtell, personally i feel differently, but i do recognise the danger of falling into trying to outguess meta.

[Neruz]

*Eyebrow*

You're the IC, so you know full well what you did. Don't try that nonsense on me.

[Neruz]

Ugh, i don't feel like having this conversation again, especially not over something so minor. I know you know how to play the game properly so unless you want to keep pushing this i'm alright with dropping it. I've had it up to here with the damn WIFOM argument.

[Neruz]

I don't think it is really scummy, if i did i would have said so, rather i just thought i'd warn you that it looked like you were starting to head into WIFOM territory or inviting others to do so, which is dangerous although sometimes neccessary.

Do you really think andrewscum is going to put so much of his rep on the line to shove through a mislynch?
Do you really think both members of the scumteam would blatantly do it while simultaneously declaring town reads on each other?

why did you drop it so fast neruz when you could have easily posted this up?

Because that would have started the WIFOM argument, an argument i have seen and participated in many times before and don't feel like persuing at the moment, especially not over something so minor as this.

[Neruz]

Based on what evidence?

[Neruz]

It certainly has a rich aroma about it.

All i can really say is that i disagree. It is far more likely that park isn't very good scum and thought he saw an easy lynch without pausing to really

think

about it. It happens all the time, even to the best players. Certainly if you're not paying too much attention to D1 it seems like Gude was a safe lynch, it's only when you look closer at what is actually going on that it becomes apparant that it's not.

I think, given the odds it's more likely he got impatient and slipped than it is he is town, because i honestly cannot see any town motives behind that hammer. It

might

be justifiable, except for the fact that in his very prior post he said that he thought Gude was town, he even implied in his hammering post that he was expecting a mislynch with his "it's not really a harm for the town" line which is not only wrong but terribly passive.

Even that might possibly be attributed to just being dumb, but his claim that he was 75% sure that Gude was scum

directly

contradicts those posts. Given that contradiction and the circumstances surrounding the hammer i simply cannot see any town justification for that maneuver whatsoever. park is an SE, he knows how to play, i cannot possibly see how he could, as town, make that hammer the way he did and then contradict himself later in an attempt to justify said hammer.

So, to recap, i quite disagree.

[Neruz]

He doesn't need to know how to play well to know that as town there was no reason to hammer Gude. Plus, judging by the topics he's posted in, he's played in 9 games other than this. And like i said, while i cannot see any reason a town player would make that hammer, i

can

see a reason for a scum player to make it, even if it is a bad hammer.

As for the night kill, i'm not going to start speculating on the reasons behind it, that is pure undiluted WIFOM and i'll not touch that until lylo. In my experience more games have been lost from trying to outguess the night kill than any other means.

[Neruz]

You won't consider NKs till lylo and then it's okay? You're silly.

No, i won't consider

wine

until lylo, and then only if i have to.

I cannot see a reason town players would ever self-vote, but they do that too. I feel a little bit like you're scumhunting via Wiki too much and not considering some other levels of the game. You do realize your case as currently presented hinges on park being stupidscum but you don't seem to be willing to consider the fact he's simply stupidtown. (and park, apologies in advance for the choice in word, my preferred method would be 'unoptimally playing town/scum, but I think the excess words would detract from the thrust of the commentary.)

Because the evidence does not support stupid town. Like i said before, the hammer might be justafiable under stupid town, but the contradiction is not. Town, stupid or not, do not contradict themselves like that. Contradictions are signs of lying, and town do not lie (except in rare and exceptional circumstances.)

Given the situation; everything i've said before and the fact that park really isn't very active at all which

does

come off as a little lurky, i think the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of park scum, not park town.

You're acting like you somehow think i never considered the idea that park might be town, which is rediculous, i

started

from that position.

[Neruz]

I will give you this though; while i remain open to the possibility that park is town, since ovbiously i cannot be certain until he flips, it would require some very extraordinary evidence to convince me that lynching today right now is not a good idea.

[Neruz]

lynching him today*, not lynching today right now

Bit of a wordo there, sorry.

[Neruz]

Ugh, Thor, i am fully well aware that the WIFOM starts when you get into a 'i know he knows' loop. Stating "Scum wouldn't d X, A did X, therefore A isn't scum" is not in itself WIFOM, but it invites WIFOM because the next ovbious step in the statement is "But what if that's what he wants me to think."

It's that second step you need to avoid unless abslutely neccessary.

As for the NK; Mothrax\Charlie is a safe kill. The only thing of importance he did D1 was to put park at L-1 and poked him a little, i can absolutely see park endorsing that NK due to fear that Mothrax would evolve his case into something more solid and persue park, alternately park could have endorsed it because it's a safe kill, or we could have an elaborate plan involving bussing.

Any of those and more are possible, i have witnessed and taken part in some truely impressive gambits built around NK choices, but for everyone of those i've seen a dozen where the NK choices were quite straightforward, so for now i'll go with the statistically most probable result; Charlie was killed because he was a safe kill. Mothrax had expressed no real solid opinions prior to the game and Charlie had only just replaced in, he was a null player. Were i scum i probably would have made the same kill as it's completely risk free and no solid conclusions beyond that can really be drawn from it.


On a related note Thor; i'm getting a very strong gut feeling that you're trying to get me to say something you can use against me, possibly to distract the town from park. This concerns me, doubly so because i'm having quite a hard time reading you.

You believe that park is town; a conclusion that goes against the odds and ovbious scumtells. Why are you discounting the ovbious scumtells so easily? It's not like park's scumtells are an aberration in an otherwise solid town play; they're the first and only solid alignment tells he's given us. If park was otherwise presenting a strong town image i could understand second guessing the scumtells, but he isn't, so i find your play concerning.

[Neruz]

Eww, the caffeine must be wearing off, my grammar and sentance structure is terrible.

[Neruz]

ARE terrible. Christ.

[Neruz]

And yet I've already called him town and the focus of our discussion has been about another player's alignment. He's being nervous. If you consider that a town tell then more power to you.

Not nervous, paranoid
I'm having difficulty getting a solid read off you which is making me disquiet, primarily because it's not uncommon for scum to engage in discussions about 'tricky' subjects in an attempt to manufacture a case. As you

are

my third scum suspect at the moment (although tbh i'm not entirely sure andrew is actually scum and not just annoying), this makes me weary of a chainsaw.

Why do you think chkflip is town?

I havn't seen anything from him that suggests he is scum. I might have missed something, but so far none of his posts have pinged my scumdar.

Neruz wasnt really on my radar before (or should i say Huntman) but now, after replacing the previous player, Neruz does almost everything to undo what Huntman did before.
I'll have my eyes on him.

I'm torn as to whether that is garden variaty idiocy or an attempt to manufacture a 'scum tell'.

[Neruz]

@Neruz - I'm making a case on my own, I don't see anything scummy about that.

Your and andrew's focus on my completely ignoring what Huntman did is, as i said, either garden variaty idiocy or a really transparent attempt to make me look scummy. I'm really hoping it's the idiocy, because if not i somehow managed to overestimate you.

[Neruz]

NIKARNNNOOOOORRRRRRRR!

[Neruz]

Your ability to appear around me is uncanny.

[Neruz]

How could a replacement possibly have the same reads as his predecessor? Replacements are different people, which means they form their own opinions, it's just the reality of the game.

[Neruz]

I'm tired leave me alone :C

[Neruz]

What you mean the case where you said that Bazz was Gude's scumbuddy? That seems like a reasonable and well-thought out case against Bazz.

[Neruz]

Yes. Yes i was.

[Neruz]

Well Thor, considering you're probably my no.1 choice for Park's scumbuddy, you can guess who i think is the wrong one in the equation

The only issue i have with andrew is his complete inability to type a coherant sentance. Considering he is engaging in social communication via a textual medium, this is somewhat of an important issue.

I've got nothing on Maniamax, i actually had to check the player list to confirm he was even in this game. If something occurs in the future to change my opinion on Park, either him flipping town or something to change my mind, i might turn my attention to Mania, but at the moment he doesn't enter into my equation so unless he does something ovbious i'm comfortable with putting a town label on him for the moment.

[Neruz]

at the moment he doesn't enter into my equation so unless he does something ovbious i'm comfortable with putting a town label on him for the moment.

Dude, if you are town - that is *terrible* please fix the problem immediately.

I think the park wagon is trying to move forward on a case of 'poor play' not a case of scummy play.

Tell you what, if you can name a partner for park that isn't me (because I'm not likely to support that case) I'm willing to take another look at him.
If I do - I demand that in payment you look at Mania and don't just blindly write him off (as TOWN!) because you don't have an opinion of him. Deal?

I'm not blindly writing him off as town, i'm just putting a town sticky on him unless i see a good reason to change it. I saw nothing from Mania when i did my first read-through that suggested he was scum, and i havn't seen anything since to suggest it either. If you want to point to some posts and put up a case on him i'll gladly read through it and see if i revise my opinion, but unless i get some evidence that my current view of the game is incorrect i'm fine with leaving a town sticky on Mania for now.

My other serious candidate for park's scumbuddy is andrew; logically my mind says that he's just, well,

andrew

, but my gut keeps saying scum.

I also remain open to the possibility that chkflip might be the scum partner, although i doubt it, he

is

aligning eerily precisely with my views on the game and while i currently believe that he is a townie who happens to see things in a similar light, the possibility that he is park's scumbuddy and is trying to drum up support with me and distance himself from park

does

exist.

[Neruz]

@chkflip, day1 day1 day1 day1 day1.

For the love of god stop being rediculously obtuse and just link the damn post, or quote it, or do something fucking

useful

for once in your pathetic existance you call a life.

[Neruz]

Are we perhaps being mixed up on semantics? If you called it a 'null' sticky I wouldn't be worried. A town sticky to my mind suggests you have seen actions from him that make you go 'town!' not that you have seen a lack of scum actions. Yes/no? In either case - you don't want a null read going into Day 3 with you or you don't want to have a town read on somebody unless you can point at reasons they are town.

Oh, i see what's happened: I tend to put town stickys on null tells because if i don't think someone is scum then logically that means i think they are town, assuming no third parties of course. No, i don't have a town read on Mania, i don't really have any read on Mania or, rather; Mania has done nothing to draw my attention.

Given that Mania has been replaced by Packbat, i remain open to revising my opinion based on what Packbat does next.

You are familiar with andrew's playstyle? If your gut keeps saying "andrew" then why do you have a potential scum read on him? If you can't answer this then he really isn't a valid fallback.

I'm familiar with idiots. andrew's play

seems

to be more idiot driven than scum driven. I'm not sure what you mean by the potential scum read comment though, i'm torn on andrew, which is fairly normal for people who play like he does.

I suppose - but let's be honest that his initial action of Day 1 was leaping on Park too. If he's scum he's not scum with park.

Nah, it's still possible. Unlikely, but possible, i've seen crazier gambits.

I also don't have a particular case on Mania to show you - my case is one of PoE (process of elimination) I remove possible suspects from various pools and look at what I have left. Not every play makes scumslips, but if enough players make actions that show they are town then the remainder has to be scum. I still would rather prefer a BAZZ lynch today, but with two of you so strongly opposed it's not likely to happen. Meanwhile I am pretty strong against the park lycnh, so what I'm doing is trying to find a player I think is scummy enough to lynch and who can also have multiple players agree upon.

This seems like a really bad way to conduct a scumhunt, especially considering there isn't exactly a dearth of tells from most players in the game. I can't precisely put my finger on why this seems like a bad way to scumhunt, so i could be wrong, but something about it just doesn't seem right.

Hmmm, also, going back and looking at this - if I'm serious about my chkflip=town feeling then I really need to reassess andrew and park. There's no way there was zero scum on that Gud lynch methinks. Andrew as the primary pusher of the wagon tends to get a few more town points - which means I really should re-read park and consider my town read there.

I'd say there's a

reasonable

chance that both scum were on the Gude lynch.

[Neruz]

Well from my PoV i'm already fairly sure i've found one

And that's why i said the chance was reasonable, it's by no means certain that both scum were on the Gude wagon, but i would say, based on my past experience, that the chance is large enough to be worth considering, if not the most likely outcome.

[Neruz]

Did i say i was certain i've found scum? No. I said i was fairly sure. Bad Thor, stop jumping to conclusions.

[Neruz]

The fact that Bazz has come to the realisation that he needs to reconsider his town sticky on Park is a good sign.

[Neruz]

And by Bazz i mean Thor because i am tired.

[Neruz]

Well we'd learn what alignment you are, and your role too.

[Neruz]

Looking at an ISO of park, i also notice that he hasn't really done anything to defend himself, at least not specifically. He has made no attempt to counter any of the points i or chkflip have brought up, in fact all he has done is reiterate that he thinks chkflip is buddying with me. He hasn't tried to explain the contradiction or indeed do anything town at all, instead he's just gone dark in what appears to be the hope that it will slide off him.

Seriously, i would expect a town player in his position to at least attempt to defend himself, not just hide in the shadows and hope it all goes away, which is what he seems to be doing at the moment.

[Neruz]

About bloody time park got to L-1

[Neruz]

Wait, you forgot the @@'s

[Neruz]

It's important to try and be polite and coherant when you're trying to convince someone of something. This is a lesson andrew has apparantly yet to learn.

[Neruz]

Hmmm, that throws me for a loop. I was right about park, but Thor was have been my choice for scumbuddy.
Also, i know you're dead Thor, but how 'bout that egg huh?

Based on the fact that multiple people had Thor pegged as the most likely scumbuddy with Park, i'm with Packbat here; the scum is clearly an idiot; now, who do we have in this game that is a complete idiot?

Ah yes.

@@VOTE: andrew94

[Neruz]

I guess you're too dumb to remember that you were my third pick for Park's scumbuddy.

[Neruz]

Wait, what? How does andrew saying 'thor = town' change anything? What am i missing here.

[Neruz]

andrew94 claimed to be the cop. Presuming he

is

the cop, "thor = town" is his N1 investigation result, announced so that we would have access to it if he was nightkilled (which, after his counterclaim, was something between a 25% and a 17% chance, although I doubt he did the calculation before posting).

I completely forgot about that.

@@UNVOTE: andrew94


Actually from what i see he never claimed cop. He implied it, and chkflip assumed he was the cop, but i don't actually see a cop claim. Nitpickery really.

So chk is the doc, andrew is the cop, do we have an investigation result from last night from andrew?

[Neruz]

Ignore question, just noticed he claimed being rolebl- wait a second.

@@Mod: Can the mafia roleblocker block

and

kill at the same time?

------------

If either of the first two setups are in play, and the situation occurs where the Goon is lynched first, the Roleblocker will still be able to submit both night kills and roleblocks (roleblocking is a function of the Roleblocker; night kills are a function of the scum team as a whole).

-- Kitty

-------------

[Neruz]

for balance reasons, the Roleblocker should also be able to nightkill even if the Goon is dead; see this thread for arguments on the matter

I've seen it both ways, if i had to guess i would

assume

yes, but it costs me nothing to ask KittyMo to clarify and be sure.
Also the word you're after is Faction, not Fraction.

Further pending my taking a second look at Bazz, since it looks like he's the new most likely scum candidate; Packbat is looking very town at the moment.

[Neruz]

It's not that i didn't read the last page, it's that i didn't read your posts. The reason for this should be abundantly clear.

[Neruz]

This is no time to be lazy, Neruz.

ooBAZZoo looks plausible for parknourie's partner, but I'd like to see some more participation before we continue.

It's not really a case of laziness so much as the vast majority of andrew's posts in this thread are largely incomprehensible. I didn't want to get caught up trying to work out what he was saying so i mostly just skimmed and skipped unless the post was obvious. I did actually catch his cop claim, i just forgot about it overnight >.>

Process of elimination suggests the partner is Bazz, and a brief ISO reveals he has defended Park pretty heavily. He even brushed off Park's hammer as antitown, but not scummy (which is rediculous.) Thor hit Park fairly early on and Bazz responded hard with what looks suspiciously like a light chainsaw. When i entered the game and starting bearing down hard on Park, Thor passively agreed with me but then slid off onto chkflip. When chk and i kept pushing Park he continued being undecided and consistantly attempted to waive Park's hammer as not scummy despite all evidence to the contrary, he continued to refuse to join the Park wagon, instead trying to stay 'neutral' to the whole thing and focusing on Thor and chkflip, Thor was easily his most dangerous opponant and there was no real possibility that Thor would be lynched due to the cop claim so the NK makes sense as well.

Bazz has also posted very little, not quite active lurking as he did contribute a little, but certainly it looks like he's trying to post as little as possible to avoid being called out for lurking, but not so much as to draw attention to himself. He also distanced himself from the Gude lynch (one of very few), but didn't actively condemn or push against it.


Pack, in comparison, is extremely vocal and helpful, he came out gunning and had no compunctions whatsoever about hitting Park, his posts before the Park lynch look legitimately town to me and he hasn't taken the oppotunity to try and jump on me, despite the fact that my kerfuffle with the andrew claim did leave a possible opening.

While it is possible Pack\Mania is our scum, neither looks particulary scummy, so i doubt it.


Ovbiously, Bazz is V\LA atm, so i won't be voting him until he gets back and has a chance to respond, but it's not looking good for him from my pov.

[Neruz]

you realise IF bazz aint scum, you guys are gonna be backpedalling like hell

It's comments like this which is why i stopped reading your posts, fyi.

[Neruz]

They're not personal insults (well most of them), i literally have extreme difficulty understanding what it is you are trying to say. Your english is broken and chaotic, obeys no apparant grammar rules and is generally incomprehensible. To add insult to injury, the parts of your posts that

are

readable are often meaningless or appear completely random. Case in point:

read my next post.

I did, but why are you saying that in response to my prior post at 671? Your post at 670 is completely unrelated to mine at 671. There is no connection,

none.

You are extremely difficult to understand, this is not an insult, it is a statement of fact.

[Neruz]

Thankyou for stating the bleeding obvious.

[Neruz]

If Bazz is town, then i'm wrong about Pack.

Duhh.

I'm pretty damn confident Pack is town though, if Park had flipped town Pack might have been a candidate for Thor's scumbuddy, but Pack doesn't fit very well as Park's scumbuddy, Bazz fits much better.

[Neruz]

The he in that sentence is indeed referring to Bazz.


I'm not buying it Bazz, Park was ovbiously

far

more scummy than Thor, if you'd tried to seriously pin up a Park\Thor team i might have believed it but you consistantly pushed for Thor\chkflip and only took a fence sitting position on Park (down from a town position) when it was obvious that he blatantly was

not

town. Both your prime suspects have turned out to be town, the person you were very passive and waffly about turned out to be scum and now you're forced to gun for Packbat because he's the only opening you have.

Give me one good reason why i shouldn't put you to L-1.

[Neruz]

What the hell am i even saying, i had Thor pegged as the most likely candidate for Park's scumbuddy. The hell was i thinking?

[Neruz]

WAIT, ignore prior post, i thought pack was quoting me for some reason...

Wow, ok, that was wierd.

[Neruz]

I'm not buying it Bazz, Park was ovbiously far more scummy than Thor

To you maybe, but not to me. This is a very easy statement to throw out with the benefit of hindsight.

Hindsight my ass, i was pushing the "Park is more scummy than Thor" line the entire day. chkflip and Packbat felt the same way, even Thor admitted Park looked scummy when it became apparant that he wasn't going to get you lynched. You were pretty much the only player who refused to take a solid stance on Park's alignment.

if you'd tried to seriously pin up a Park\Thor team i might have believed it

A Park/Thor team didn't make any sense, and since I had a scumread on Thor, that's who I was voting for.

As Pack said, sure it did. A Park\Thor team made more sense than a Park\Bazz team. If Thor hadn't flipped town i'd be trying to lynch him right now.

you're forced to gun for Packbat because he's the only opening you have

True, but only because, with andrew and chk being confirmed, and you looking pretty town, he's the only viable scum candidate.

No, he's not. You are.

Give me one good reason why i shouldn't put you to L-1.

Regrettably I can't provide you with one. I'm aware I've played a pretty bad game, but as town, not as scum. I realise me simply squarking "I'm town because I'm town" is pointless, but to be honest, if I wasn't me, I'd probably find me the scummiest player too. Whilst its not in my nature to give up, I'm struggling to see a way of convincing the town of my true alignment when the other two unconfirmed players appear reasonably town.

Well, at least you're not trying to flail out of reality.

@@VOTE: ooBAZZoo

That's L-1.

One thing to note: If I were scum along with Park, why would I have been vocal about suspecting a mislynch of Gude D1? Surely either going along with the lynch, or sitting quiet, would have been far more sensible than trying to disband the wagon with the slight possibility of trying to appear town?

Uh, exactly the opposite is the case. You knew Gude would flip town and you knew that in the entire wagon was going to look hideous when he did. By being vocally against the Gude lynch you gain town points and drop suspicion. If you'd just sat quiet and tried to avoid the spotlight you would have drawn attention for lurking, by pushing against the wagon you avoid any backfire from the mislynch and avoid looking like you were trying to avoid suspicion.

It also puts you in a solid position to bus your partner (who was on the wagon) later, it's just a pity he cocked up that hammer so badly and ended up getting lynched a day too early.

[Neruz]

Don't be a dick Bazz

[Neruz]

Huh... this is the one situation i didn't consider.

Andrew and chkflip, targets and results?

[Neruz]

The thing is, the most likely result would have been either a block on you and chkflip dies, or a block on chkflip and you die. The fact that the scum chose to block you and then chose to either no kill or kill someone other than chkflip is...

odd

[Neruz]

No, it's odd because the usual benefit of forcing 4p doesn't exist here. Normally the reason scum forces a 4p game is to ensure there are more people to choose from and thus make the game harder for the town, but we have a 100% confirmed Doctor and a most probably confirmed Cop, so we only really have 2 choices (Packbat and I) and it doesn't matter if it's 4p or 3p, because chkflip is confirmed town. Thus a no kill doesn't make any sense; it's just a delaying tactic, there's no tactical benefit.

[Neruz]

?

[Neruz]

Since when did you think i was scum? Last i remember you thought i was town.

[Neruz]

Speaking of chkflip, where is he anyway.

[Neruz]

To be honest, i agree with you about Pack scum, although for different reasons. From my PoV i see two possibilities; andrew is scum and we're actually in setup 3, or Pack is scum. In order to see andrew as scum i need to accept that he and Park concocted one hell of a gambit, counterclaiming cop against each other like that as well as freeing up the most likely candidate for Park's scumbuddy. I find this series of events to be

highly

unlikely. So that leaves Pack scum. In addition, the kill on Thor suggests that scum thought andrew's inspect was legit, as in andrew's position i would have expected him to NK chk, not Thor.

Looking back on Packbat, i think there is some evidence to support the pack scum theory, although not much:

Upon arriving, he quickly jumped on the Park wagon and forced a claim.
When Park claimed cop, he quickly flipped off Park and onto chkflip. he then made this post:

Wait - rechecking my math, the cop

should not

counterclaim unless the cop is chkflip or the cop has a guilty: the chkflip lynch will reveal park's lie if park is lying, and that means the cop can remain hidden overnight to claim tomorrow.

Suggesting that the cop should not counterclaim Park. It's a bit odd that he decided that the best course of action was to lynch chkflip to determine if Park was lying, instead of lynching Park to determine if Park was lying. Given that Park was looking

way

scummier than chk, and Packbat thought so, this sudden change of direction seems a bit strange from a town PoV, but makes sense from a scum PoV to buy time. Park was going down anyway, but later is always better than sooner.

Then, when andrew CCed, he jumped back on Park. Next day we get this line:

In the "Mafiascum.net" folder on my hard drive is a text file - "temp.txt" - which contains the post I planned to make when dawn broke. It targets Thor665 as parknourie's partner. My only consolation is that our one remaining scum is apparently stupider than I am.

Now, i'll be honest, i'm not sure if this is scummy or not. But Pack

is

drawing attention to the fact that he was

totally

planning on lynching Thor which, of course, cannot be verified in any way. I'm reasonably sure that there's a special name for when the scum draw attention to the night kill and go "oh noes that was so unexpected!" in an attempt to show they didn't do it, but if not i can see why scum would want to make this point, but i can't really see a town reason for wanting to make it.

The next three posts from Pack are interesting. He first concludes the voting patterns oppose a Neruz-park team and that for me to bus park at that stage was a very poor scum play (and he'd be right too), two posts later however he's changed his mind and i'm no longer town.

It's also worth noting that i'm not finding a whole lot of content in Packbat's posts, he never does any real analysis of other players and he doesn't seem to add any points of his own.


It's really not much to go on, but given the alternitive is the aforementioned andrew bus, which i really don't think is likely at all, Pack would seem to be the most likely choice.

[Neruz]

Hm, going to try for the andrew lynch eh Pack?

[Neruz]

andrew, my town read on you was always stronger than my town read on Pack. For you to be scum would require you and park to have concocted a seriously crazy gambit when there was absolutely no reason whatsoever to do so, which i find highly unlikely.

Also, i personally think we should try for an NL again.

[Neruz]

Pack: If andrew was so obvious why didn't you go after him yesterday, instead of going after Bazz?

[Neruz]

Pack: If andrew was so obvious why didn't you go after him yesterday, instead of going after Bazz?

I assumed he was confirmed town and didn't check the posting history.

Now

we have a player list which corresponds exactly to the player list voting for parknourie at lynch and we're at MyLo, which means a bus is mathematically proven. Integrate all the evidence. (Including last night's lack-of-nightkill - seriously, who doesn't kill the super-confirmed confirmed Doctor in a game with no other confirmed town?)

What? You were

right there

when andrew made his claim.

And

you said that you had read back and caught up on the game by that point. How did you manage to miss andrew's posting history but see Park's posting history? Selective blindness?

[Neruz]

Your post implies that you just assumed andrew was confirmed town and that you didn't read back in the thread. But you were right there when andrew made his cop claim and you previously read back through the thread when you first entered the game. How did you conclude that andrew was confirmed town and how did you manage to read back through the thread and see the park was scummy, but completely miss that andrew was scummy but still notice that "From the start, andrew/park was the obvious team."

You can't have it both ways Pack. You either didn't read back, or you did, and you had no less information than everyone else in relation to andrew's alignment, so how did you reach the conclusion that he was confirmed town?

[Neruz]

@@VOTE: Packbat

You're contradicting yourself Pack, you said, and i quote: "parknourie/andrew94 was the most obvious scumteam in the history of scumteams", yet when i asked why you didn't try pushing that connection D3 you claimed that you assumed he was town and didn't check his posting history. When i asked why you thought he was town and didn't check his posting history, you claimed that you assumed his counterclaim confirmed him as town.

Except that you read back through the past history of the game

before

he made that claim. Your third post was one where you drew a few connections between andrew and park and you concluded from your prior read of the game that park was scum. So you somehow managed to catch up and notice that park was acting scummy, but not notice that andrew was acting scummy,

despite them being the most obvious scum team in the history of scum teams.

If you'd replaced in after the park\andrew counterclaim, i could believe you. But you came in

before

that. So tell me Pack, how did you conclude that andrew was town and thus not read his posting history

based on a claim he hadn't made yet.

[Neruz]

andrew is arguably a viable option for voting, but only if Packbat was looking incredibly town, which he really isn't because his attack on andrew

stinks

of opportunism.

[Neruz]

It's kind of sad that the best argument you can bring against me is one against Huntman,

I

could bring a better argument to the table against me than that.

[Neruz]

Uh, game's over. Either we just mislynched town and lost, or we lynched scum and won.

I'm town, soo...

[Neruz]

I must doff my hat to andrew then, he was definitely my choice for scumbuddy after Thor, but that counterclaim came outta nowhere. I did not expect that kind of gambit in a newbie game.

It does, however, remind me that i really do need to lynch people with obfuscating postinf styles, i let andrew get away with way too much because his posting style convinced me he was just an idiot.

[Neruz]

Yeah, that'll teach me to let people go easily for bad posting habits.

[Neruz]

I seriously don't see how Gude was so scummy, if i'd been here from day 1 i probably would have been going after you or possibly Thor.

[Neruz]

Like i said before, i let andrew get away with way too much because i discounted scum tells as idiot tells. T'was an error on my part and i don't think i shall let it happen again.

But yeah, the hammer on Gude? That was dumb.

[Neruz]

Neruz, I think you didnt want to be a dick, so you didnt go after it, and what you perceived to be his random/strange posting. In the end, you end up a better person, even though you lost. I dont fault you for that.

It's actually a side-effect of playing with people i know for too long. When i started seriously playing mafia i used to aggressively take down anyone who made it harder for me to read the game. If i couldn't tell if you were scum or stupid, i'd lynch you unless i had a really good reason not to because it was far too easy to get away with being scum by pretending to be stupid.

As i played with the people on #mafia more though, i got to know them better and was able to tell genuine idiocy from faked idiocy, which meant people being stupid were no longer unreadable, so i stopped lynching people for it. I don't know anyone all that well here, so i need to start lynching people who muddy the waters again.

[Neruz]

To look at it another way, it's the same principle as LaL:

"If i can't read you, i'm going to lynch you."

[Neruz]

It's actually "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

[Neruz]

(Also known as Hanlon's Razor)

[Neruz]

It's actually "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

I don't believe Hanlon's Razor applies to Mafia, where it is

known

that multiple players are acting with malice aforethought.

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Safer to just assume it doesn't.