Newbie 1038: Welcome to the Jungle! (Game Over!)

[DavidParker]

/Confirm.

I'm an SE for this game, which just means I have a bit of experience on here, but unlike Llama I'm not obliged to teach you a thing :p

I've been playing forum mafia for about a year and a half, started on a gaming site for fun which was a big joke really, then came here about 6months ago and played some 10-15 games so far. I'm currently in about 6-8 games so go easy on me at times!

[DavidParker]

/confirm
1. What is the origin of your username?
2. Why did you choose your avatar picture?
3. What time zone are you in?


PS. Mirror, i love your username, really creative. ^^

Why thank you good sir.

1. My username originated one day when I was trying to find a new username to replace my old one (which was Xtremheadblo; pretty retarded if I do say so myself). I eventually came up with Mirror, but sadly it was taken everywhere. Then I thought of MirrorrorriM, but that just didn't seem to pop out enough (I am very picky). So I thought of putting an "I" in between the "Mirror"s (you know cause it kinda looks like a divider/mirror) and then I got my username, MirrorIrorriM!

2. My avatar picture I made after a comic character I once made up named Koiki. I never did anything with it but I had the picture so I decided to use it.

3. I am on the east coast of the U.S. UTC -5 I think

Hi, the game has actually not started yet for one thing, so don't get too excited yet! (Although it is great to get acquainted)

I'm actually really excited to see a group of actual "newbies" who I can

manipulate

teach and have fun playing with!

Also, I will post a response (or lack of response) once the game does begin!

[DavidParker]

Fine. I will not be answering said questions because they are useless and don't get us any closer to a lynch.

/confirm
I forgot about the thread lol

Too busy posting in the scum quicktopic thread instead?

Vote: VOT Productions

[DavidParker]

I think in most of my previous town games I have been lynched on D1 - whereas when I am scum I can usually end-game or win

so if you survive today, we should definitely lynch you tomorrow.

[DavidParker]

Let me answer my own questions as well.

1. Just a random, cool sounding name i thought of a while ago.

2. Found it on google, using it cuz it fits well with my name.

3. GMT+1. Central Europe, so my english can be weird at times.

5. I would guess mafia is harder because you have to make it seem like you're scumhunting as well. But i can't say cuz this is my first game here.


Why will you not answer the questions david? They might not bring us closer to a lynch, but they're there as an ice breaker.

So for now,

Vote: DavidParker

, for not answering my questions.

Those questions are
1) Not even mafia related except for 2 of them.
2) Not game related, but "Mafia discussion"

MD is not useful. RVS is far more useful than posting useless questions. I'm okay with people using questions instead of RVS if they are actually useful but those questions were some of the worst I've ever seen someone start the day with.

[DavidParker]

So why aren't you posting in a way to get reactions/find information/analyse players so you can find a person who is "worthy" of your vote? Wouldn't that be the pro-town thing to do, rather than throwing in the towel, saying "i have no idea, i'll just put a vote on this guy for nor reason, and that's the end of my post"

[DavidParker]

This is a newbie game. Being useless and/or not scum-hunting or behaving "pro-town" is never a scum-tell in newbie games. I was just being snarky. I find it's the best way to make people put in that "more" effort.

[DavidParker]

My personal approach is often sarcastic and snarky. That's a personality trait of mine. I'm glad your using that as a scum-tell though.

[DavidParker]

V/la til monday sorry

[DavidParker]

Back early.

@mod

: Time for replacements? Two haven't confirmed and VOT hasn't posted since confirming!

[DavidParker]

This game is going nowhere, so I'll personally get rid of my Random Vote.

Unvote, Vote tanstalas

Because your not-so-random-vote on me sucks.

Coaching?? REALLY? COACHING??? ON PAGE 1??? Something tells me I would have done the early game "coaching" in a scum quicktopic or through pms if I was in fact scum with him.

(inb4omgus)

[DavidParker]

This game is going nowhere, so I'll personally get rid of my Random Vote.

Unvote, Vote tanstalas

Because your not-so-random-vote on me sucks.

Coaching?? REALLY? COACHING??? ON PAGE 1??? Something tells me I would have done the early game "coaching" in a scum quicktopic or through pms if I was in fact scum with him.

(inb4omgus)

This is a day start in a newbie game, I do not think you have access to a QT yet (QT is only open during night, right?) and I don't think you can PM each other during a day phase in a newbie game, correct?

Or... do you know something I don't?

Really? I'd expect this kind of thing from the newbie players... Scum have always been allowed to talk during confirmation phase.


Here's an example scum quicktopic (From a newbie game), http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/A694kMSEPH6

Note: "You may post here during pre-game",

Also note: The coaching from the SE to the new player that happened in the QUICKTOPIC, not the game thread.


Also, why has no one else commented on my vote on Tanstalas. I especially expected llama to say something being an IC and all.

[DavidParker]

My point:

Tanstalas accuses me of coaching my scum buddy on page 1.
I claim this is ridiculous because it's page 1 and I would have "coached" him during the ~48hour confirmation period you are talking about.

I'm aware daytalk isn't allowed. But there is typically time during pre-game to do necessary coaching. Buildling a case around coaching 2-3 posts into day phase is a ridiculous case and holds zero merit. The fact he is pushing my lynch based on this fault reasoning makes me find him scummy.


If you think your vote is useful where it is, leave it there. I've seen people put at L-1 (Lynch minus one vote, ie: 4 votes) on the first couple pages of day 1.

Generally, just make it known if you put someone at L-1 or L-2 if you do so early in the game. There is nothing wrong with doing it.

[DavidParker]

That is unlikely to happen mirror.

It is basically the mafia revealing who they are to be lynched on days to come.

[DavidParker]

I prefer the pine wagon the the Luna wagon.

Vote: Pinewolf

Luna hasn't struck me as particularly scummy.

[DavidParker]

Pine seems like OBV. scum at this point.

VOT's lurking/lack of existence is a bit scummy, but hard to comment on at this point until we see more from him.

[DavidParker]

Short list of things I can see town "maybe" doing, but scum "definitely" doing.

1. Saying to "not look into posts too much" because they are just for fun. (127, How are we supposed to know which posts are "Just for fun"?)
2. Deciding to go after the easy target (VOT), for lurking(127). Sure lurking can be a scum tell, but pushing a case on him this early isn't going to help us much.You even vote him because you "didn't understand" a post of his. Not because you found the post scummy.
3. Saying earlier how you're not sure "who is scummy" (101) and that your reads "are just hunches" (ie: an explanation for when said player flips town, you can just say "oh it was just a hunch")
4. Stating that either you or Luna will be lynched since you're both at L-2(120). You realize this is early into day 1. There's every chance neither wagon will go through, and as a result of these wagons another, scummier wagon will kick off. (I'm actually unsure as whether or not this post is more likely to come from newbie scum or newbie town, but i'm leaning scum). Basically you are trying to force people to choose between two wagons when that is not the case (although as said, one wagon is on yourself, so I feel as if scum might try push the other wagon and a different wagon altogether). This point in itself could do with some discussion. THe reason I find it partly scummy is because you brought it up. IT's as if you are saying "i realize these are the two wagons, one needs to happen, but because I realize it, it shouldn't be me, but please remind me why I am scummy so I can make you think I'm not scummy and reply, so that you vote for the other guy" [That is the vibe I get from your post]. To be honest, I can see newbie-town making a post like this as well though, but the main thing making it scummy is the way you "shrugged off" the case on you as being worthless at the end of your post.
5. Reluctance to put Luna at L-1.(122) Why not do some scum hunting? If you don't think Luna is scummy enough to be put at L-1, who is scummy enough to earn your vote??? All you are doing is slowly easing us into the idea that you will eventually vote Luna.


Other notes: the buddying to mirror I can see coming from newbie town as well as newbie scum, and don't find it too strong a tell.


Final note: I can see llama being a potential scum-buddy to Pine (Hi llama, I did notice you buddying me, but that won't stop me going after you), he mentioned how both Pine and mirror were scummy in a post of his, then pushed a case on mirror and semi-ignored Pine (commented on his grammatical "mistake" but that's it). Now, I found this fishy simply because mirror has been obv-town to me. And even Llama's case on him seems quite forced.

Also, I have to agree that due to recent "circumstantial" evidence that Brent is likely town, but that can change depending on how some of my "stronger" reads flip.


PREVIEW EDIT: Thanks for pointing out half I what I just said Mirror . Hurry up and vote for Pine now!

[DavidParker]

I'd rather lynch someone day one because they have contributed and acted, but done so in a scummy way, than because they haven't contributed or acted at all. You get more information from lynching someone who has put down their thoughts and I find it's just as likely (if not more likely) to flip scum.

Lynching someone for "lurking" or not contributing gets us where? Day 2 lynches/discussion will largely be as a result of the flip(town or scum) of the person who gets lynched on day 1 (and to a lesser extent the night kill), so an information lynch (on someone who is scummy) is more desired than a lynch on someone for lurking/not doing enough. They can be dealt with at a later time.

[DavidParker]

So, who's your scum buddy?

[DavidParker]

Pine why are you ignoring my question, that's scummy!


I don't want a claim yet from anyone this early into a game. Even if they are at L-1. Not until we are near a hammer should a claim occur. But hey, it's not always about what I want.


Disclaimer: I do not usually abide by this guidelines myself so feel free to act/claim as you see necessary because I am a huge hypocrite.


HAHA, Preview Edit: Thanks for answering my question Pine


Claim = State your role. (ie: In your case you would say, "I am a mafia goon" or "I am a mafia roleblocker", depending on which one you are)

[DavidParker]

I have to admit, Mirror's sense of humour is somewhat lacking.

[DavidParker]

@King: Listen to the mod please!

Also, I like your observations. I did leave them there to be observed, but you've won some town points for commenting on them.

[DavidParker]

I make fun of people too, so it's okay.

I find your last post scummy because you have not produced any original ideas, just copied the reads+reasoning of other players.

[DavidParker]

I'd rather lynch someone day one because they have contributed and acted, but done so in a scummy way, than because they haven't contributed or acted at all. You get more information from lynching someone who has put down their thoughts and I find it's just as likely (if not more likely) to flip scum.

Lynching someone for "lurking" or not contributing gets us where? Day 2 lynches/discussion will largely be as a result of the flip(town or scum) of the person who gets lynched on day 1 (and to a lesser extent the night kill), so an information lynch (on someone who is scummy) is more desired than a lynch on someone for lurking/not doing enough. They can be dealt with at a later time.

I know this will probably end up looking bad in my case but, I've read a couple of games and some SCUM tend to lurk when they can.

And addressing the other game of mine you guys were talking about. It started the first day of San Diego Comicon, and it the biggest comic book convention in the world right now(if you didn't know) so yeah I kinda got distracted. The whole event lasts 5 days.

After that I got stranded on the side of the highway in the the desert for 8 hours so yeah I was not really in the mood to finish playing a game of mafia after that.

Not trying to make excuses just trying to get you to understand where I'm coming from.

Yes scum tend to lurk. But there is legitimate town reasons to unintentionally (and sometimes intentionally) lurk. It's a slight scum-tell but it's so unreliable. And if we don't lynch scum when we lynch a non-contributer/lurker, where are we then? The same place as day 1. Nowhere. Wagon analysis isn't that useful because it was effectively a policy lynch. We need to make cases on people who are providing content, figure out why they are or aren't scummy and lynch based on that in early days. Day 1 lynches will usually be quite random, but because it's fairly random we want it to have maximize effect on days to come to benefit town, ie: an information lynch. While hitting scum is ideal, we have to make sure we are getting useful information from the lynch itself.

While some might not agree, i'd rather lynch someone who I'm 50% sure is scum but has been actively involved in wagons/day activities/had their own wagon go up and down throughout the day than someone who I'm 60% sure is scum on day 1 but has been lurking all day and not posted anything or been involved in any useful wagons.

[DavidParker]

I'm still pretty sure Pine is scum.

All his posts just aren't thought through using town logic.

Recent posts:

I really got nothing to add to all this. I agree with the suspicion of DP, he's at the top my mafia list atm. With mirror not far behind.

Oh cool. You just said the 2 people who were pushing your lynch the hardest are the two scummiest people in the game and are likely scum buddies. I would classify that as "flailing" around and getting a bit desperate. (It's a bit silly to bring up site meta, but that's just something that doesn't really occur, blatant support of scum buddies etc, although meta alone isn't really reason to explain why it's silly). It's silly because it's a huge OMGUS. You just stated the two people who are the scummiest are the two going after you and your reasoning is because the way we are pushing so hard for your lynch is scummy... Umm okay. That's silly.

It then gets better with your "non-town-like" posts:

VOT is lurking, stays number 3 on list.

Then your number 3 is a lurker who has done nothing. Firstly, your calling out the people going after you as scummy, then you throw down the "hey the lurker guy is scum!", which is just a typical deflection move that scum use on day 1 when they are under pressure. They want to try start another wagon or get people to notice someone else scummy sot hey highlight someone who has done something that's a slight scum tell (ie: lurking) and try push a case. But really, pushing this case doesn't help town. If you think VOT is scummy you would pressure him to post more and post more content, and ask him questions. Voting him and calling him a lurker does NOTHING. That is not pro-town behaviour.


Here's my favorite part:

And king seems pro town, making a bunch of good posts with solid cases and good reasoning.

I'm sorry. I actually chuckled to myself. I was actually going to respond to King's post and just tear it to peaces but I can see he's trying. (And I think he's probably town but due to different reasons to you, I just get a newbie town vibe from him). King's huge wall post was useless. What good points did he make or solid cases???
ALL king did was quote mass posts and explain what happened in a post by post format. That's useless. He just repeated what was in all the posts and posted nothing of substantial worth. Maybe there was 1 or 2 good points in the huge wall, but overall it was generally useless (apologies for the harsh words king, i know you seem new but that's just my impression of your post)
Seriously, go re-read his wall (173) and tell me how much of that was anything new or actual thought out opinions. It was just a commentary of what people said. Useless. Yet, you claimed he's town because of it.

Essentially, your posts don't show town-like thought and reasoning. Your town read on king is entirely off because he hasn't done anything in terms of useful scum hunting with solid reasoning and good cases. He posted a huge wall of "blah". If anything, I find him slightly town because he's making an effort and has done some newbie-town tells. But often, you'll find newbie-scums who play in these games by making mass wall posts responding and commenting on everything (kinda like king did) as their way of "scum-hunting" and seeming "pro-town". As it stands, I don't think king is scum but that's subject to change. I also partly think he's town, because I'm pretty sure you're scum and this just gives me the impression of scum buddying to town by calling his posts useful and solid reasoning etc etc.

I got nothing on tanstalus and Llama, except that they seem to know what they're doing

So i'm guessing one of these two is your scum buddy.





Now, addressing other people:

@Lunatic: (171 re: lurking), you're right. There is incentive for scum to lurk. Scum can easily lurk day 1 and avoid a lynch. I'm actually okay with this to a certain extent on day 1. I think it's slightly "dirty" play for scum, and not how I play scum simply because I'd rather actively try manipulate people, but that's just me. Lurking does take out the fun. I really look at lurking as a scum tell when you get down to LYLO. Also, it's better to just try pressure lurkers early on via questioning them + pressuring them to post more. As it is, we only have 1 lurker and we are still relatively early into day 1 so I'm not phased at all by VOT's lack of contribution. If he's lurker scum, I will figure it out soon enough in due time. I'm busy figuring out the rest of you for now

@King: i'd rather you actually analysed rather than commentated and posted huge walls of nothing (as stated in my above case on Pine). You point stuff out and make little comments, but don't actually look at what it means or look at incentives for these actions/posts and try come to conclusions of whether that person is scum.

@Brent: Do you really think Pine has explained himself as best he could? Sure he has explained himself and responded to accusations. But then he went out and made baseless accusations and statements that just aren't centered around town-logic/thought process.

Oh and I'm glad you read up on my doctor game Brent! Makes me feel happy someone saw that, and makes me find you more pro-town for actively looking for meta-resources. If you think Pine+llama are scum, why not vote for the bigger and more likely wagon, Pine?


@Pine: Oh dear, you just keep offering me more and more bait. You now suggest Brent and I are scum buddies? So basically anyone who attacks you is a likely scum buddy with me because I'm attacking you (the most), and if two people are attacking you they are scum buddies.. That's some poorly thought out reasoning.


Final point: I think it's more likely tanst is scum with Pine than Llama at this point. Tanst has stated how he's "slowly warming to pine being town" which seems silly from an experienced player. Pine has done nothing to show himself as being more town than before. All he has done is post more and respond to more accusations, but he hasn't done it well.

And here is the icing on the cake for this scum duo: Tanst "subtle" role fishing/speculation on llama. (I almost didn't bring it up but decided to bring it to attention, it wasn't strong, but it's definitely there)

People have different outlooks when it comes to lurking, if you are actually referring to lurking and not flaking, in it by itself I do not think is justification for lynching someone, however if they only pop on once in awhile, say something noone really cares about or just parrots what other people say I would be down for a lynch, especially if they are being active in other games - however I agree with DP that this would only be from D2 onwards.

The only downside to this is they may be trying to lay low as they have a cop/doctor role and are trying not to make themselves noticeable - for me this is when I will meta someone.

however Llama is to me seeming awfully quiet compared to when I played with him in SSBB. I will have to meta some of his games and see what is up.

This is bad. Bad anti-town posting. If you think llama might be a PR, keep it to your fucking self. I almost didn't bring it up, but chances are it was noticed by all including scum if you aren't scum. I know it's not really role fishing, but it is definitely suggesting that you believe llama to maybe be a PR.



TL;DR: Go read it. There's no cheats here.

Sorry for the long posts, I rarely do such long posts :/

[DavidParker]

I made this a separate post as it was a "preview edit" (I did partially respond to the preview edit, simply because I saw pine suggest me +brent were scum buddies and had to laugh at his most recent "flail"):

@Pine: Just what questions do you want me to asnwer? I'll go re-read through quickly but I'm not quite sure what you want explaining.

[DavidParker]

If we go by your logic it's suspicious how you defend DP in this last post. It could mean you and him are scum buddies. Same logic as with your case about me and Llama. And also let's not forget about that early post #24 of his. It's the same deal. I would also like if you point me to this game you're talking about.
Let the man speak on his own already. He doesn't need you and mirror answering my questions and accusations meant for him. It enables him to lurk around without having to answer anything. When i'll want you answering a question of mine i'll make sure it's a question for you, and not for DP.

I'm sorry but this is just another scummy statement of Pine's. I agree Brent did "defend" me to a certain extent, (he posted a case on llama+pine being scum, and suggested I was town, that's defending to a certain extent, but he didn't "fight my battle for me") but the best part of this: Pine telling brent to let me answer the questions and accusations myself. What questions? I just read back through your last couple posts, you aren't questioning me at all, you don't even make any accusations, just say "Oh I don't agree that DP is town for aggressively pushing a lynch as part of a personality thing, in fact I think he's scum", that's all you've said, There's nothing to respond to.


Once again, you then repeat: "Question for DP" in your post.

WHERE ARE THESE QUESTIONS!?!?!? In fact, you've stated me as your most likely scum candidate, but your recent posts just ignore me and just included a little line at the end saying "oh i think DP is scum". Stop flailing.



Sidenote: I'd fully support a push on Pine's wagon at this point, leading to a claim, and a subsequent hammer with the way he has acted recently. A scum flip is almost certain.

[DavidParker]

Brent, what are your thoughts on the pine case (largely seen in my huge wall and the few posts after it) as compared to the llama case?

[DavidParker]

Also, what is everyone's opinions on Tanstalas' "role speculation" that I brought up? Do you find it valid?

[DavidParker]

I prefer to avoid using "out of game" information such as that to scum hunt. I have actually done a V/LA in a game of mine while posting in another game in the past simply because I was busy but could keep up with one game but not another that required more attention.

Meh, it wasn't really an accusation towards King's wall post, he admits it himself, it's just a long post of his thoughts and the happenings. He doesn't really delve further. It wasn't "bad" it just wasn't the "scum-hunting masterpiece" that Pine made it to be.

Trust me when I say "scum tells" constantly change with site meta, individual player meta, and just general game setup and strategy. If you think through how scum would act and what they would do, your guess as to what could be a scum tell is probably as good as mine, although you will see some "commonly accepted" scum-tells on the site, however, scum obviously know about them so scum tells can become quite meaningless, and you really just have to look at player intent and behaviour.

[DavidParker]

Pushy towards you? I've just been ignoring you mostly because I'm pretty sure you are town.

I'm confident enough in my scum read on Pine that I am happy to push it. I'm also happy enough with the way my playstyle comes through that even if Pine flips town that won't necessarily backfire on me although it's quite probable it will.


@Pine:

i have only accused you of trying to push for a lynch too much

Exactly. That's all you've accused me of. How is that even scummy? If you thought someone was scummy, surely you would push for their lynch. That's how this game works. You figure out or try to figure out who scum are and try get them lynched. That's what I'm doing. And you are saying me scum-hunting is a scum-tell. That's where I see your biggest slip to be. I agree I can be self-centered and overly confident, but that's my way of pushing my case and trying to show others how scummy you have been (and to further my case on you, as rude/aggressive behaviour is more likely to get a reaction from you so I can confirm my scum-read; something that has happened)

As for your questions and "requests" for explanations, I have no desire to get into some distracting "back and forth" with you. Especially now since you are treating this whole thing as a joke ("I am terribly sorry, like really very very sorry to be a newbie. I have no idea what town logic or what scum logic would be. Please explain that thoroughly with examples or poor newbie me will have no clue what you’re talking about." ).

Furthering a back and forth argument between the two of us will distract town and not benefit us in later scum hunting.


@Llama: What do you think of the merit behind the role-speculation I commented on with regard to Tanst's post?

[DavidParker]

Random Topic of Thought/Lesson for the Day

:

Something of recent from newer players has caught my attention. Scum-buddy speculation: People are jumping to the conclusion that someone who is scum will or is most likely to state that their scum buddy is town. From past experience and current site meta, You'll actually notice it's slightly more common to see scum go after their scum buddy (to some extent, ie: bussing) or to distance themselves from their scum buddy and claim a "neutral/unsure" read on them. Everyone seems to be jumping to this idea that two people in complete agreement and calling each other town = likely scum buddies. You'll find more often than not, that one is town and the other is scum, and the scum is merely buddying up to the other player, but they aren't scum buddies.

With that said. I'm not off to sleep (it's fricking 5 am, this game is too addictive) and I have work all day so will report back in 18ish hours

[DavidParker]

Preview edit: response to come laterrrrrrrrr. night.

[DavidParker]

He contridicted himself in a single post and you only think he's slightly scummy? That seems extrordinarily scummy to me. I mean the contradiction, not your not thinking he's scummy.

There's no "blatant" contradiction.

It says "fishing/

SPECULATION

", there is definitely some hinting that llama may have a PR because of the way he is lurking or that he might be scum because of it. It's not rolefishing, because he isn't asking about roles or trying to force a PR to claim, but it is role speculation, something which doesn't benefit town.

I simply included the "fishing" part because role-fishing is a generally accepted scum-tell and the "speculation" is in a simlilar category to it.

I fail to see how a "major" contradiction is present in my post.

As for my defense, I'll respond to major concerns later, just got home from work and heading out to dinner. I'm actually quite surprised that the people who were previously on my side are now voting me, and those who were previously perfectly happy with my accusations/cases are now the ones who find Pine scummier to me (see: tanst). It has made me re-think a few things.

I'll say for now, I don't like how mirror uses his "votes". it's not so much as scummy, but just non-sensical. You vote me to get a response? Why don't you just ask for a response to these accusations. Whether I have 2 votes on me or 1 vote isn't going to change my response. Just ask for one. If you don't find me scummy you shouldnt be voting for me. If you think Pine+llama are scum you should be voting for one of them. I'll give you all the responses/answers to questions you won't if you just ask or accuse me of something. If you find me scummy, then go ahead and vote for me, but your post doesn't seem to imply that you find me scummier than Pine or Llama.

@king: I know exactly how you read that. Me ignoring Pine and his accusations to some extent. I can provide you plenty of evidence from other games where 2 players have become the center of attention via back-and-forth arguments on day 1 and all it did was create a huge distraction. A few times both players were town between the big arguments (generally one of the two people arguing gets lynched), and occasionally one of the two was scum. But regardless, huge back-and-forth arguments between two players that aren't going anywhere have no benefit for town. I'll gladly link you to multiple games if you want me to make the effort and go dig up some of my recent games.

Also, if you didn't notice some of his questions and comments were actually a "joke". I didn't just make them into a joke and claim they were worthless, he actually made them joke responses. Sure, some of his accusations and parts of his response were serious, but a lot of it was just sarcasm and joking questions.

[DavidParker]

Mirror is seeming "scummier" but I had such a strong town read on him earlier I'm deciding to ignore it somewhat.

I have nothing to put against you as of your last post.

For now, V/LA til i'm sober and I've had more than 2 hours sleep in a night.

[DavidParker]

Hey guys just opened all my current games to do my quick-skim of the newest posts, and while I haven't got any content to post yet, I would like to state that Pine is at L-1, so no "accidental" hammers.

[DavidParker]

meh, ATE is common from newbie towns.

Unvote, vote: tanstalas

As much as i think not lynhing someone who has claimed VT isn't very pro-town, as long as we are lynching scum i am happy. AT the moment i am more convinced of tanst scum than pine scum. Although I still find pine quite scummy and a "possible" buddy for tanst.

[DavidParker]

meh, ATE is common from newbie towns.

I agree, that is why I was said "ugh"

I was pretty convinced Pine was scum, however his latest post struck me as a townie who has just given up as we have pushed him pretty hard and he has just given up.

I need to re-read this game

Unvote:

This is exactly why I unvoted. The "emotional" tells Llama mentioned I saw. I saw them earlier but I found his other scum tells a lot stronger. The way he finally claimed and "gave up" made him jump up in townieness.


Also, feel free to post a case and I will respond to it, or quote one, but I'm not sure what you quite expect me to respond to at this point, seeing as there is 16 pages a lot of which is people saying stuff at me and some of it is people accusing me, I don't think you want me responding to every little bit of accusation or discussion regarding my behaviour. So please be more specific with what you want me to respond to.

[DavidParker]

Because I said a single ATE made me "instantly" think otherwise?!!? I said I had been seeing some of the "emotional town tells' llama had been seeing but thought his scummy behaviour stood out more. I was getting a slightly more convinced of his "towniness" as he responded more and more, but I didn't let it show because I was waiting for that moment when he "gives up" as scum and town do it differently. If I let show I think he might be town, (if hes scum) he thinks hes sitll in with a chance and doesnt give up or keeps responding and using the same town-tells. But, if I keep forcing my case down his throat even if I start to doubt it somewhat, he eventually gives up and has to claim and then I can determine whether by the way he gave up I found him more town or scum.


And, I'd rather not drown the game in huge wall posts that don't accomplish much King. That's not my style. I hate wall posts. I'm not going to respond to everything (not to mention that would help kill our replacement's sanity )

So please, go ahead and attack me for ignoring stuff and not defending myself, but I've made it clear I will address specific concerns if you bring them up, I'm not going to respond to every little post (as your style seems to do earlier, which I stated was useless and I still believe it is) regarding me or every little accusation.


Preview Edit:oh hi mirror

[DavidParker]

I consider role fishing to be just that: "fishing" for PR's or even VT claims, as in actively trying to find out people's roles. This benefits scum for obvious reasons, finding PRs or making it easier to hunt PR's (by getting VT claims)

Role speculation is saying "i think so and so may have this role because of this", it's definitely anti-town as it doesn't benefit town to have your speculation into who is a likely PR public. If you notice someone breadcrumb cop, do you tell everyone?? Hell no. I personally hope the scum just don't notice it.


I'm not quoting anyone with those words in quotes, but merely emphasizing them to some extent, since I was too lazy to italicize them. I used them to emphasize the ambiguity of the situation, ie: you can twist my post to show how I contradicted myself, but the key points of my posts don't contradict themselves, but it could easily be twisted to seem scummy.


Pine never asked me any questions, and hardly even accused me of anything or posted a case on me. DESPITE THIS, he was saying I was ignoring him and ignoring his questions (lolwutquestions).

Llama buddies me earlier, if you didn't notice it oh well. I don't expect it to be a tell in his case, as town or scum llama would do it. I'm too lazy to dig it up since it's irrelevant anyways.

I had an early strong-town read on mirror. If he's scum he definitely knows what he's doing and using it to manipulate town by acting like this is one of his "first games". Even as a first game town he is actively involved and playing a strong game, I'll be very impressed if he is scum from his early game play. I still feel he is probably town, but less convinced than before.

Saying the case was forced was mostly because of the tone of it and just the impression I got from it not being genuine. That's just my interpretation and totally ambiguous so not something to be explained as everyone reads the tone of posts differently.

[DavidParker]

You're making mountains out of molehills on your case.

[DavidParker]

I've actually completely forgotten about Lunatic's being in this game which makes me think he could be scum lurking while we are all going after each other. Would love to hear more from you lunatic.

Time for a prod, mod?

[DavidParker]

If your case on llama was entirely based on pine being scum (a bad premise to use to find scum on day 1 to begin with), why were you even making a llama case?? Cases dependent on a scum flip should wait UNTIL THE FLIP HAS OCCURRED. There was no reason to even start a llama case until you saw pine flip scum. So pine is now "considered town", do you think he's town? Think for yourself please.

@Mirror: For starters, king is having a go at me for ignoring someone else's questions. Most of which were joke points some of which were serious. I just filtered it all since it was largely a big wall post and I'm easily bored. Apparently, ignoring questions that are presented in a way that's annoying to respond to is now a HUGE scum tell. I'm also not sure what his obsession over small facts like me stating how llama was buddying me is. Sure, llama buddied me in one post, buddying happens all the time from people of different and similar alignments. I was merely observing it, and did so in a somewhat sarcastic way. Yet, he's using me being "lazy" as a scum tell now as well? Really?? Look, i'll go waste my time finding a quote which won't help us find scum or add anything to this game whatsoever. Buddying:

DP and Brent are both town.

Yay! Fun! Now there's the buddying, how did that help you!??!?! or me??!?! or anyone!??! oh. wait.

As for the case on mirror, the early game case on him had no merit whatsoever, recent cases have been stronger and I can see why llama believes him to be scum even if I don't agree with it at this point. The way Pine retaliated to mirror's case on him was what was forced. To me it was like this, Pine gets attacked and called scummy so decides he has to retaliate and go after the person who attacked him so he just made up any old case he could find (hence the case was forced), that was my interpretation of the early game (page 5-7ish) attacks on pine/mirror etc. Pine's reasoning for voting mirror were just bleh.

[DavidParker]

You shouldn't take meta into account so much. If you think my actions are scummy then vote for me. Who cares what my meta says, I fully know what my meta is so can play around it at will or play to it at will in order to manipulate you and whoever. If you think my actions are scummy and I am scum, then vote for me irregardless of my "meta".

[DavidParker]

What makes

intentionally

ignoring questions a scum tell? Is it not just anti-town?

The "i'm too lazy defence", once again how is that scummY?


Btw, this is number 5 (in terms of ignoring those questions)

[DavidParker]

Wooosh. Everything I've said has just gone right over your head.

Are you colorblind in real life as well?

[DavidParker]

Cool, everyone plays anti-town at some point or another.

You tunneling on me and ignoring the lurker and not scum-hunting anywhere else all while asking useless questions (okay they're not all useless but some definitely are) is anti-town. At least I have the balls to admit to the anti-town characteristics of my play-style.

[DavidParker]

Hint: Explanation mark implies sarcasm.

so if you survive today, we should definitely lynch you tomorrow.

Almost guaranteed scum slip. How did no one catch this before??

Once again it's your mafia playing ability that astounds me. Your inability to read sarcasm is quite epic. You also took this quote ENTIRELY out of context, without context there is no meaning. So please, misrepresent me even more. I'm guessing your slot is scum since you've jumped straight onto my easy wagon when in all my other games with you, you say how I'm "probably town" despite how I play, but here you come right out and say you think I'm scum.

[DavidParker]

I consider myself quite good at reading sarcasm as well. Obviously you guys fail at it.

Pine, despite the fact I still think you're scum I actually really enjoy being in this game with you because you have brought a lot of life and you actually have a personality and seem to be enjoying the game (and you use sarcasm and understand it as well)

But yeah, you are still probably scum and need to die. :/

[DavidParker]

I'm still leaning slightly scum at this point, just not convinced enough to have my vote on him.

[DavidParker]

haha i didn't even realize i said that or i probably woulda flipped a cow and abused king, i just assumed i didnt state that i still found pine scummy when i unvoted him.

nice catch :p

[DavidParker]

I can understand King's being "convinced" i am scum. It happens to the best of us. Then confirmation bias sets in and you see everything they do as having scum intent, and see scum reasoning for it. I've been in the same position and tunneled someone to hell because I was convinced they were scum, attacked them, then every response to my attacks I saw as scummy (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=275). It gets to a point (ie: now) where I see no reason to respond to him because I'm not going to convince him other wise, maybe other people will or my interactions with other people will change his view, but interactions between the two of us is just going to be a big distraction.

There is a strong case on Luna, but I'm not going to vote him yet. As I prefer my vote on tanst at the moment. I'll let it be known that as of right now I find it quite likely that 2/3 of Singer/Luna/Tanst are scum, and if that's not the case it's because Pine is scum, he still seems scummy to me, but people are slowly convincing me with their "pine = obv town" pitches :/

[DavidParker]

because that makes so much sense?

[DavidParker]

Because you suggesting that llama is quite possibly a PR because of his "lurking" wasn't scummy at all of you?? right...

[DavidParker]

As i've been saying singer is probably scum, first thing tanst has got right!

[DavidParker]

Unvote, Vote: Singer

[DavidParker]

because that makes so much sense?

I would've rather you answer my question that come up with snarky remarks, DP.

Tanstalas, thank you for being so obliging, as incriminating as it was toward you.

DP, King is one of the most towny players in this game, IMO. I'm not really sure why you feel the need to be so condescending toward him.

So what about the Luna case do you agree with? What makes Tans a better lynch?

.. These questions have simple obvious answers.

I agree with the same somewhat-scummy things other people have pointed out. But luna has lurked a lot today, and wouldn't be a great information-lynch.

As for tanst, I found him scummier than luna hence he is a better lynch and lynching him is a better "information" lynch. It's the same reason a VOT wagon was a horrible idea earlier.


Anyways, so I'm lynched today, I flip town (

Vanilla town

to be precise, I may as well claim since I'm at L-1 according to my count), then you guys go into tomorrow with one of your obv-town players dead (probably brent or something), then who is scum?

[DavidParker]

Huh? People had mentioned there was me AND luna on 3 votes, so I just assumed your vote put me at L-1 tanst.

[DavidParker]

David has claimed VT and has now just made another pretty blatant mistake involving tanstalas, we should lynch him. We will lose very little if he is town and gain much if he turns out to be scum, which is much more likely.

Preemptive speculation about scumbuddies:
tanstalas: He voted for someone nobody else was voting for at the time with rather shallow reasoning, possibly as an attempt to pull a bit of heat off of DP. DP immediatly sheeped him.
Mirror: Despite my town tell on him he still seemed to copy many of DP's votes and stuff earlier so I must include him as a possibility.
Lunatic (now Uite): lunatic claimed DP was townie, is very scummy just by himself, and DP seems to have tried not to bring any attention to him, attempting to start another wagon on someone else instead of just trying to strengthen the case on lunatic (Which would have been much easier). This one is most likely in my opinion, although it could be someone else entirely.

Speculating over scum buddies is a bad idea until you have seen a scum flip (in fact it hurts town, generally, and just helps mafia know who to kill at night), and it's just pointless until you've seen a flip anyways.

[DavidParker]

Vote: Lunatic

Already claimed and stated what would result from my lynch. But I suppose there are worse lynches.

[DavidParker]

Vote: Uite

My mistake.

[DavidParker]

My reason for voting for you is because you are the replacement for Lunatic.

Translation: "should be done in a couple hours" = "gonna go do something else then come back in a few hours and hammer but make it seem like I thought the decision over and it's not just to save my own scum-ass"

[DavidParker]

Do you notice me ever saying I thought lunatic was town?

[DavidParker]

singer, why have you not cast a vote?

I've been voting for Luna/Uite almost the whole time I've replaced in. I only unvoted to vote for a deadline extension. Why is that any less a legitimate vote than voting for DP or Uite?

You didnt need to unvote to ask for an extension, that is what this is all about.

We need a votecount

@DP - Why is lunatic/Uite scum? Is he your top pick? Second pick?

meh he's my 2nd/3rd top scum-read. But i feel he is a good information lynch none-the-less and a good result for day 1.

[DavidParker]

Because no-one was joining in with the tanst wagon or thought it had any merit. Singer/tanst/Luna are my top 3 scum-reads at this point so I didn't mind moving my vote to singer.

[DavidParker]

Because no-one was joining in with the tanst wagon or thought it had any merit. Singer/tanst/Luna are my top 3 scum-reads at this point so I didn't mind

moving my vote to singer

.

Uite

(L-2): LlamaFluff,

DavidParker

, SingerSigner

Again, I must say, keeping your lies straight is hard when you are scum. AMIRITE?

i don't get it. what lies. I voted singer, then moved my vote to luna/uite at a later point. Luna=Uite.

They're my top 3 scum-reads, but i do see some combonations that are unlikely depending on a scum flip on one. And If one flip scum that would change my read on the others as well.

[DavidParker]

BrentM:

Solid player. He had a slow start, but after that he really pulled it together. He's not shy giving his opinions, and he's done some good detective work on DP and Llama. Pro-town.

lol, it's sad that this line is one of the main reasons I am switching my vote. For some reason it feels like it was put out there to keep me from switching. Seems a little forced.

unvote, vote Uite

I chuckled.

I guess it's my turn to say that Brent is pro-town to avoid you changing your vote back?

[DavidParker]

No surprise uite votes me here now that he won't be labeled as scum for hammering me , in fact his only option is to label me as scum.

I found tanst's early role speculation fishy or at least very anti-town, the vibe im getting from a lot of his posts seems forced and scummy and I prefer to scum-hunt based on the tone of posts than the specific content itself in general (at least on day 1 when there's not much to go off), singer subbed into the spot of an active lurker and hasn't done much to improve the slot, has been very wishy-washy and just seems to be trying a bit to hard to please people (or at least the people labeled as pro-town), and I've made it clear why I'm voting for Luna (Uite), I don't think uite done much that's been overly scummy but he definitely hasn't struck me as town.

[DavidParker]

I'm fine to have Pine stay, at this point he isn't going to be the lynch for today, it's either myself or uite, so while not having his input is somewhat of an inconvenience, i'd prefer him tto stay as a replacement won't be that quick anyways.

[DavidParker]

Only been two (I replaced into both)

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15219
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=14792

Quite a bit of difference to my hyper-aggressive/reckless town play in most newbie games :/

[DavidParker]

Im going to say that the claim from DP makes him slightly more likely town then scum after looking at those older games of his, replacement meta does vary though, and I will vote him without hesitation over no lynch. Going to look at some VCs with my reads plugged in to see if I can get anything off of them. Mirror still bugs me to death, and will likely look into him tonight, maybe tans too depending on what information I can find.

What is a VC?

Also what happened with Brent? He just disappeared, I am assuming because of the holidays, just a heads up would have been nice, he just left us with the head scratching "btw, Uite, did you claim?" post and then gone..

This is going to get interesting in the last few days I think, you are willing to switch to DP and I am willing to switch to Uite. His post #477 is rubbing me the wrong way especially with how his preprocessor played, I do not like over-the-top reactions, from new players I can understand it, from someone like Uite not so much. Also:

I apologise for the behaviour of my predecessor. I found his presence to be somewhat

grating

. I can assure you that my conduct will be an improvement over his.

If you ever played with DDDP you know that he (well, actually Amished) has a theory of when someone replaces into a game and criticizes how the person he replaced into played the game then that person is likely scum - actually funny story, isn't that one of the reasons we busted you as scum in that second game you quoted DP?

Anyhow those above two points with everything else that has happened this game with Luna/Uite is making my finger itch.

I got busted because there was a cop in the game who investigated me night 1 when us scum were cruising into day 2

The "scum-tell" was actually brought up, but I just shot it down haha. I believe it has some merit for players who aren't aware of it, but like most scum tells once people know about it, it becomes much less of a tell. Myself as town would criticize the person I subbed into as much as myself as scum would. It's more a personality trait than a scum-tell, although I can see how it is a scum tell for some people.

[DavidParker]

Also, I don't understand why uite is not voting for me. Seems like some kind of deflection that isn't very townish.

[DavidParker]

Also, I don't understand why uite is not voting for me. Seems like some kind of deflection that isn't very townish.

Him voting you would be OMGUS. Which is exactly why I don't vote Llama even though he won't quit calling me scummy even when I fully explain myself. He even at one point admitted that I wasn't scum, but still persists with the accusation.

As for Uite I don't like him being the lynch for today. He doesn't mark me as scummy and everyone is just interpreting everything he says as being scum because of his predecessor (not necessarily bad in its own right).

Also the reason I took my vote off DP was so BrentM wouldn't go crazy and lynch him early. Since DP is at L-3,

VOTE: DavidParker

I still think DP is the best lynch for today with Pine being second. However, if either Pine or DP is scum it would probably mean the other is innocent; on account of how hard DP pushed Pine.

What's wrong with OMGUS?? And who says it is. There's a thing called survival! It's just logical at/near deadline if there are 2 major wagons (player X and player Y) that they vote one another. Whether you are town or scum it makes sense, unless you have some way of being 100% certain the other player is town.

[DavidParker]

i won't.

[DavidParker]

NOOOOOOOO. Llama didn't get any scum until D2.

DP...well, he had his suspicions, but he had nothing to back it up, so I wasn't worried.

I'm just glad noone listed to Llama and DP when they were alive, they had the scum team nailed down since D1

You guys were pretty obvious :/

Once the Pine wagon fizzled and I realized he was town it was the only option left. Convincing newbies to vote accordingly is rather hard though :/

You even made it more obvious with the last day lurking. Town-experienced players lurking in LYLO definitely would not happen.

[DavidParker]

The problem was towards the end of day 1 I was figuring out who scum was, but everyone just interpreted that as vote hopping and trying to save myself, so it actually helped me get lynched more than anything...

[DavidParker]

I felt so sure singer was scum towards end of day phase, that I just couldn't help bandwagoning her when tanst voted her, then that just backfired on me, got a bunch more people on my back, and I was forced into voting you to try save myself when I didn't even want you lynched, and I think that was fairly obvious (making me look even scummier, voting someone I didn't feel strongly was scum, and you seemed to be doing the same on me). Brent was super-super obvious town. King seemed town. And I had mirror pinned as town from his early play (although he kinda started playing more scummy).

[DavidParker]

I'm very surprised tanst didn't get lynched on the last day when he first voted.. THen played it off as "drunk posting".

[DavidParker]

It's not that I didn't believe him to be drunk, but randomly voting someone as town in lylo because you are drunk still doesn't make sense, it's still a scum tell. And yes i have drunk posted before.