Newbie 1081: Showdown in Newbtown (Game Over, Mafia win)

[h3ll0]

Vote h3ll0

Good-bye.

You're lame.

Votes lynchking

, who wouldn't?

[h3ll0]

1. What's your Mafia experience?
2. What's your favorite band?
3. What role/alignment do you prefer?
4. Do you find it harder finding scum, or convincing other people that you've found scum (the latter assuming you correctly identified someone as scum)?

1. I played 3 games on another site before, which ended in 2 town lost and 1 mafia lost. This is my second game here, the first was in newbie 64 where I won.

2. No favourites at the moment.

3. I never played as a power role before, so I don't know.

4. Definitely convincing the other people.

[h3ll0]

I just got out of a game with you and I know it isn't your playstyle to lurk. In fact, you provided a significant portion of the early game content - where are you?

I was unemployed then.

Just because you have a question doesn't mean it needs pressure to be answered faster. You shouldn't vote for someone for the sole purpose of asking a question.

It is kind of weird how you feel this way, considering that you were advocating on how townies should be using their votes freely on D1.

Sarah, obviously it's early in the day and making a choice based on three pages of info is difficult, but - if you had to place a hammering vote right now - where would it be? On a lurker? No lynch?
Everyone else is free to answer this, also.
Personally, I'd peel off a lurker over anyone else posting in this topic at the moment.

Probably. But it is still too early to actually lynch lurkers.

[h3ll0]

I advocated using your vote as a tool. You're not using it as a tool if your putting it on someone without an almost decent reason outside of RVS. I advocate using your vote to pressure - but when there is no real delay in a response, is pressure needed?

Fair enough. While the pressure was probably unnecessary, there is nothing wrong with voting purpose of asking a question.

And we both know that of course, but that's not what my question is asking for. It's asking if the deadline were tomorrow and you had the vote that was end-all be-all, what would you pick? I'm not asking you to actually go about that course of action because given the alotted time we have, we are in no rush at the moment.[/quote]
Well, if you put it that way, yeah. I would hammer the lurker.

[h3ll0]

EBMODP

I was the same way, H3ll0. Now I'm workin as well XP It's still no excuse to sign up for a game and then be infrequent at best about giving responses. When can we to expect you to give input aaccording to your schedule as of now?

Of course. But do note that this is, after all, the first weekend of the game. I'm not saying that my lurking is excusable, but that why I posted way less in this game as compared to the last during at the start is because of work.

I advocated using your vote as a tool. You're not using it as a tool if your putting it on someone without an almost decent reason outside of RVS. I advocate using your vote to pressure - but when there is no real delay in a response, is pressure needed?

Fair enough. While the pressure was probably unnecessary, there is nothing wrong with voting purpose of asking a question.

And we both know that of course, but that's not what my question is asking for. It's asking if the deadline were tomorrow and you had the vote that was end-all be-all, what would you pick? I'm not asking you to actually go about that course of action because given the alotted time we have, we are in no rush at the moment.

Well, if you put it that way, yeah. I would hammer the lurker.

[h3ll0]

Vote: lynchking

, more posts/thoughts please.

I'm not liking this. You look like you are imitating Bulvious/Fatso simply to look town.

Unvote, Vote sarahfish89

[h3ll0]

I was? Oh I see what you mean, I guess I was doing this without realising but you did need to post more.
Question: Apart from me, who do you think is the most scummiest at the moment? Same with townie. (other people can answer too)

LOL, the pot calling the kettle black. I call bs on this. While it is true that I needed to post more content, I don't see how is it even relevant in this discussion, especially since I called you out on voting lynchking. I don't buy the fact that you can vote without realising what you just voted for. You are just trying to change the topic, aren't you?

[h3ll0]

Ok, maybe I spoke too soon here

. Imitating can be scummy, but in this case (if it was even imitating, which I doubt) it wasn't really IMO.

Jumpiness noted. What do you mean you spoke too soon?

Imitating is scummy if it has to do with an actual opinion, but imitating techniques for posting and (in this case) getting others to talk isn't.

I beg to differ. In this case, what sarahfish89 did was to "imitate techniques for getting others to talk", all while

not posting

any actual content. This is a clear cut example of what we call active lurking, which is extremely scummy.

The questions was just to see who you thought was scummy and that's what we're meant to be doing, talking and asking questions to find scum. I didn't realise that I had imitated Fatso and Bulvious. I wasn't trying to change the subject away from me, no.

Except that your question is a one-way flow of information. It does not tell us more about you stance on anything, all while digging for information, which as Bulvious said, benefits mafia greatly.

[h3ll0]

First thing first.

From Post #74

Um,

Bulvious

and my posts weren't even in reference to you there...

Is where you answered sarahfish89's question. Dated Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:45 pm, based on my timezone (GMT +8)

From Post #94

Additionally, Fatso, you say I'm the scummiest - fair enough. But why? -snip-

Is where Bulvious questions your answer. Dated Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:48 am

Duration between the two post is about 36 hours, or 1.5 days. Bulvious second reply came in half a day later.


And also, Fatso, it is barely 3 + days since the last vote count. Have patience. Most mods update around twice a week, so it's still on schedule on my count, especially since considering that antihero is not around.


And yes, I know, there is no content in this post, but I'm too distracted by the timing thing to not post this first. Also, awaiting sarahfish89's response

[h3ll0]

Um,

Bulvious

and my posts weren't even in reference to you there...

Is where you answered sarahfish89's question. Dated Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:45 pm, based on my timezone (GMT +8)

How am I answering a question there? I was clarifying a mistake she made.[/quote]
You weren't answering a question? So the "Bulvious" in your post was for show?

[h3ll0]

EBMODP

Um,

Bulvious

and my posts weren't even in reference to you there...

Is where you answered sarahfish89's question. Dated Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:45 pm, based on my timezone (GMT +8)

How am I answering a question there? I was clarifying a mistake she made.

You weren't answering a question? So the "Bulvious" in your post was for show?

[h3ll0]

*Facepalm*

I read it as:

Um, Bulvious.(1)

and my posts weren't even in reference to you there...(2)

Where I though part (1) was your answer to sarahfish89.

Excuse me while I go bang my head against the wall.

I was just asking a question about who people thought were scummy, I don't really see the harm but I guess it be thought as a Mafia member trying to get information to cause confusion.

The harm is that it helps Mafia to choose who best to target for their Night-kill. There is not much point in asking others who they feel is the towniest.

Budding up is scummy and I know that so why would I do it so much is it's scummy, I wouldn't do that if I was their partner and was scum. Also this is only out of the games I've read and you've played and read more than me so I could be different for you.

Budding is a form of asexual reproduction performed by certain plant species, in which a new organism grows on another one.
*shoots myself for being lame and out of topic*
Okay, if you know that buddying is scummy, why would you do it as a townie? Your defence is pretty much WIFOM.

[h3ll0]

I'm still not sold on a lurker lynch at this point of time, seeing that we still got 11 more days to the deadline (which could be extended). Sitting around and agreeing to the policy lynch does not help progress the game either.

Okay, thanks, for some reason I thought I was going to be hated for not being able to scum hunt.

Being bad at scumhunting does not excuse you from doing it though.

[h3ll0]

I'm not entirely sure anyone has been doing much scum-hunting for some time, though. It's mostly been "Let's lurker lynch" - all fine and good, but that's something for the future.

-Snip-

h3ll0, what do you think of the willingness to push a lurker lynch? Doesn't it seem odd that so many people would want to agree to that when it's usually a 50/50 sort of split in the average game? Normally you get SOME people contesting it - but there's none of that in this game. Could it be that two of the scum are the most ardent in pushing the most useless wagon and keeping that on-topic?

Exactly. This "policy lynch' thing has done nothing but distracted all of us from actual scum-hunting. Especially considering that the lurker lynch policy has already been agreed on earlier when you asked your question on who to hammer.

Alnpka is actively lurking - to me, this is significantly worse than someone who is likely to be replaced.

He has provided no original content. The most he's done is accuse Fatso of backing down and being sensetive - accusations that were parroted from other players in this game. He appears to merely be agreeing with people - a good move for scum. He's not hunting at all either, let us not forget that.

Good catch. I want to see Alnpk's reaction to that.

[h3ll0]

I disagree. I think what questioning there has been was directed at a player who could easily fall into a policy lynch of a different nature, or who is actually scum. And the accusation of "Let's lurker lynch" is a bit of an overstatement. Zdenek asked a valid question, and people answered it. While a few players, myself included, agreed that barring conclusive evidence a policy lynch was acceptable, at no point did town settle on a policy lynch. I'd rather you not point fingers at others for not scum hunting and start doing some of your own.

While the question is valid, it is also redundant as the same question has been posted way earlier by Bulvious.

For now... what? Pressure on BS is absolutely warranted. Will she be replaced? Likely. When that happens I'll unvote.

I'd rather that we get a replacement immediately and that we start looking at other people now to move on (even if said person is me).

Bullshit.

Is it not? What have we done since the question has propped up?

Good catch?

I admit, I sort of forgot about fatso's question earlier when posting.

Here we see obvious buddying of Bulvious by h3llo.

If you feel that it is wrong that I share an opinion with Bulvious, so be it.

I've already commented about what I didn't like about BS's first post. I'd even say that I'd lean town on Lynchking because of what I perceive as him making a post that accidentally suggested or could have been misinterpreted as suggesting that we lynch Fatso today with little discussion. I think scum would be more careful to avoid making a post like that.

Quite a fallacy here. Just because Lynchking made a potential scumslip does not make him pro-town.

Anyway, it is doubtful that we'll be lynching the IC today.

Fence-sitting much? Why are you afraid to push a case on StarTransmission simply because he is the IC?

[h3ll0]

I think that he's town because early on he agreed that you were probably town. This is a town-tell because it's a sacrifice for scum to say that they think that someone is town; it means that it will be harder for them to push their lynch. The only things that I haven't liked from him, I've recently pointed out.

I think the reverse is more true. It is easier for scums to declare who they feel is town, as they know who is town.

The question was different. The first one was what would you do if you had to hammer early. Whereas mine was about actually lynching a lurker at the end of the day.

And what difference does that make? People who answered the first question will answer your question in the same exact manner.

I never said pro-town. Misrep. 1.

You said that he has leaning town. How can one be leaning town if his actions are not pro-town in the slightest way?

I am not fence-sitting, but I know from experience that it probably won't happen. Misrep 2.

"Fence-sitting" was probably a bad choice of word. Lack of action is more like the correct phase. But your reply is valid in either case.

[h3ll0]

@mod: Could we have a deadline extension?

[h3ll0]

Their possession of that knowledge does not give them any motivation to do it.

By declaring who is townie, they can avoid making cases on the said player. And when the said player is mislynched, they can just jump and mudsling on the players who made the case. This is good enough motivation, in my opinion.

How was I supposed to predict that? There is no reason to think that someone's willingness to lynch a lurker early in the game implies that they still would be later on.

Either you are not paying attention to the game (1) to realise that no real development occurred between Bulvious question and your question (in other words, no one particularly scummy popped up), or that you are asking questions just for the sake of doing so(2). (1) means that you are playing badly, (2) means that you are active lurking. Which is it?

The fact that I think he is town has to do with the fact that he was being careless, not because he did anything pro-town at all. I'm not saying that it is a strong town-tell.

You mean to say that it is townish behaviour to be careless? This is bullshit. Both town and mafia can and will make mistakes. Lynchking making a mistake does not make him any more town then any other player.

h3ll0 is arguing for the sake of arguing. More rope here.

Seriously? Am I suppose to stay quiet while you make your "case" on me?

[h3ll0]

H3llo, do you agree with Fatso that one of the three mentioned by him (which includes you) might be scum? Who? Why?

I don't agree with what Fatso said. It is also possible that both scums are amongst the three of us, or that none of us are scum. I find it difficult to agree with Fatso, especially since he doesn't/can't back up this point with example. And that what he said is based on real life mafia, which is much too different for him to draw a parallel to.

As I cannot really find a justification for one, no.

Carry on, please.

Is it unjustified to ask for a deadline extension, considering that two players were inactive for almost 2 weeks and that they weren't prodded in a timely manner? And that one of the player is still MIA, while the one who did responded to the prod asked if he should be replaced?

[h3ll0]

Do you think that is what Bulvious was doing?

Perhaps. I'm not ruling out the option yet. That's why I'm not putting Bulvious as 'town' at the moment. To me, he is leaning town for generating plenty of discussions which are beneficial for town.

You are being obtuse. The two questions were different: I was actually advocating for a lurker lynch.

Which was pointless at that point of time. Your attempt to lurker lynch when there was plenty of time left (almost two weeks left) doesn't progress the game.

I am not accusing LynchKing of making a mistake, I am just just saying that he said something that could be interpreted as scummy, and I suspect that scum would have avoided saying it. Could I be wrong about him? Of course. He's essentially posted nothing, but if it came down to lynching him or BS, I'd prefer BS.

What you said, is at best a null-tell. I not seeing how you can call him 'leaning-town'. But it is your opinion, after all.

No, but if you were town, you'd keep scum hunting, but instead you've given that up.

Yeap. You just keep on mudslinging me. You vote me for unsubstantiated reasons, and when that fails, you simply throw everything at me. You accuse startransmission to be scummy and refuse to make a case for it, seeing me as the easier mislynch.

Unvote, Vote Zdenek

I still want more h3ll0 votes.

Then make a better case.

[h3ll0]

Oh really, show me where you pointed out that someone was scummy since I voted you outside of RVS.

Er, Sarahfish? Though, yeah. I really need to go do some more scumhunting.

Notice that Bulvious asks a couple of questions there. Someone who was honestly answering would have responded to them. However, h3ll0's response is:

Exactly. This "policy lynch' thing has done nothing but distracted all of us from actual scum-hunting. Especially considering that the lurker lynch policy has already been agreed on earlier when you asked your question on who to hammer.

He agrees with something that Bulvious said, it's not clear with what, and goes on to reiterate his point from his previous post. It's simply mindless agreement with nothing in particular.

I'm agreeing with this part of Bulvious's post:

I'm not entirely sure anyone has been doing much scum-hunting for some time, though. It's mostly been "Let's lurker lynch" - all fine and good, but that's something for the future.

Which you conveniently left out from your post.

My issues with h3ll0 are recent and easy to find in my ISO, and I would prefer his lynch to st's.

You have an ISO on me? Which post are you referring to? All your points against me are pretty spread out from what I see.

chkflip has put up an interesting case on fatso. Going to do a re-read before commenting.

[h3ll0]

Finally, a concise case on me.

Arguing for the sake of arguing:

h3ll0 went on and on about me asking the question about how people would feel about lynching a lurker at the end of the day, and said that it was the same question as the one Bulvious asked:

If you keep pointing out the same thing over and over again, obviously, I would reply in kind.

Not even he answered the questions in the same manner.

Fair enough. But seriously, what was the point in pushing for a lurker lynch when we were almost 2 weeks from deadline?

Softly attacking Fatso:

Why it is scummy: Scum want to take safe positions, so they will softly attack someone. For instance by pointing out something that they did, but not necessarily calling them scum for it, see how other people react, and then move their vote/attack more aggressively if the conditions seem favorable.

What he did was slightly suspicious, but it wasn't anything near scummy behaviour.

As soon as I voted him, he became purely defensive, and immediately attacked me by misrepresenting things that I said.

Your first case on me was based on the process of elimination. As your what you considered town-tells were, to me, weak and illogical, it was therefore necessary for me to question these ideas.

There is not a single reference to Sarahfish in your ISO since my vote on you. Moreover, you have had nothing to say about workdawg.

I missed the "since my vote on you" part.

The only person I'm finding distinctly scummy at the moment is h3llo, partially because of Zd's case, and partially my own suspicions. It is a little weird that Zd didn't start posting long things until he came under pressure though.
Bulvious's case on alnkpa was interesting too, but it seemed to me that there was some stuff he labeled "fluff" that I wouldn't consider to be fluffy.

Fence-sitting much? This is not the first time you have done sometime like this too. If you find me distinctly scummy, why aren't you voting for me? Further more, this is also the second time you mentioned your suspicions for me. And yet, you have not pointed them out.

Unvote, Vote Bulvious

[h3ll0]

EBMODP:

Whoops.

[/b]Unvote, Vote Fatso[/b]

[h3ll0]

And again...

Unvote, Vote Fatso

[h3ll0]

h3ll0 posted while I was posting. I have to say, his vote really confused me until I saw the other two posts. h3ll0, I can't see why you voted for Fatso, though. Other than possibly his 'fence sitting' if that's even an accurate accusation, I don't see what makes that so scummy.
He makes posts like these #189 and #285 whereby he says some player are scummy, but also town as well.

Some people are conservative with their vote even in D1 (though that's not a great play, he IS new, I've said it multiple times, so is it really a tell for scum or for newness?)

He is conservative with his votes? Like chkflip said, this is inconsistent with his playstyle. He has shown that he is willing to vote for a lurker in multiple situations, yet he isn't able to do so when it comes to a player who is "distinctively scummy".

[h3ll0]

EBMODP:

I really really need to go sleep, and stop posting mess like this...

h3ll0 posted while I was posting. I have to say, his vote really confused me until I saw the other two posts. h3ll0, I can't see why you voted for Fatso, though. Other than possibly his 'fence sitting' if that's even an accurate accusation, I don't see what makes that so scummy.

He makes posts like these #189 and #285 whereby he says some player are scummy, but also town as well.

Some people are conservative with their vote even in D1 (though that's not a great play, he IS new, I've said it multiple times, so is it really a tell for scum or for newness?)

He is conservative with his votes? Like chkflip said, this is inconsistent with his playstyle. He has shown that he is willing to vote for a lurker in multiple situations, yet he isn't able to do so when it comes to a player who is "distinctively scummy".

[h3ll0]

Woops, forgot:

Vote: h3llo

That looks OMGUSy now, I know.

And you have still yet to voice out your suspicions of me.

Nor have you said anything on your fence-sitting. Vote still stands.

[h3ll0]

I've already explained this, and now you are scummily trying to muddy the waters with pointless questions.

Show me where you answered your reasoning for pushing a lurker lynch. I flipped through your ISO and did not find one.

It was suspicious, but not scummy, as if there is some other sort of suspicious behaviour?

The actions he did could also be attributed to newbieness. Or differences in typing style. Hence I wanted to hear his reply before confirming.

and stop scum hunting?

You're missing the point. How many people actually go about scumhunting when they are focused on defending themselves, which I was clearly doing? I don't find my method of questioning your process of elimination to be faulty.

Good, then let's lynch him.

Fine. Lynch me. Who do you think the rest of the town should look at when I flip town?

@Mod: Deadline extension please? Until when we can at least get a lynch, seeing how the thread speed up.

[h3ll0]

[quote="Fatso"]Could you define "fence-sitting" for me? I've heard it before, but I'm not really sure what it means.[quote]
It means to comment on an issue and take a neutral stance on it instead of siding either side.

[h3ll0]

I just noticed this little quote from a couple days ago and it seems interesting to me even though no one else has mentioned it. I have to wonder what would make h3ll0 change his playstyle? Can you elaborate on that at all, h3ll0? Was there something specific that didn't work well in your last game that's making you play differently now?

I'm a very passive player. Even in that game, Newbie 1064, I made a case on the scums only after been nudged by the other players.

UNVOTE: Fatso

I wasn't trying to get

that

personal, again the tard comment was just a rough joke. Sorry if I have offended you.

Calling him a lazy jackass, on the other hand, was because he was double and triple posting instead of copy/pasting his arguments into one post.

I'll tone it down from here on out.

Why the unvote here?

[h3ll0]

@h3ll0

That seemed a bit obvious, really. Fatso asked to replace out, and to begin with he appeared noobtown which chkflip all but conceded prior to his post where he unvoted. More specific answers wouldn't necessarily be bad.

I don't know about you, but how much of Fatso's action can be attributed to newbieness? I can't see how you can simply wipe out everything he did simply by saying "he's new". Second, Why are you answering a question that is clearly directed at chkflip? I admit, I should have ask specifically for him to reply, but isn't it obvious? Seeing how I was asking for his justification?

I'd prefer an Alnpka lynch, but if we need a compromise lynch we need to come to some sort of agreement somewhat quickly. Maybe it's wrong of me to rush people but when some people only make a post a day if that (most do about that) then we definitely need to hold the deadline in mind.

-Snip-

My overall vibe on him: He's either bad town or he's scum, either way I feel like he's not very useful in the game. I'm definitely the most comfortable lynching him.

Looks like Fatso to me. I don't get how you can dismiss Fatso as noobtown (especially since Fatso is the one with 3 games here), while thinking that Alnpka (who is playing his first game here). Furthermore, while Alnpka has used his vote to some effect, Fatso has not. Fatso's replacement, Kard, has also not done anything significant enough to be clear off as town.

[h3ll0]

@h3llo
And yeah. I had no idea it was his third game. But aren't his othdr two games still active? Someone said before that it was his third game but up until that point I had no idea.

Fatso's games have already ended. To be fair, he replaced out of his second game pretty early, but still, you considered him to be more newbie than alnpka after knowing that Fatso had played more games than alnpka?

[h3ll0]

Don't like Zd's last vote in the slightest.

Why? Do you find that jumping on wagons when we are nearing the deadline to be scummy?

I'm not sold on the alpnka wagon, like I said earlier, as the way I see it, what he did was in no way scummier than what Fatso/Kard did. Most of the points that Bulvious put up against alpnka can also be applied for Fatso/Kard.

Right now it looks like Zd and alnpka are tied at L-2 a piece. I've always said I thought Zd was our scum, so I'm obviously not going to move my vote right now. I'll try and compile my case against Zd during work if I get the chance and post it up, otherwise tonight for sure.

There is something about this post that makes me want to

Unvote, Vote Workdawg

. It feels as though you want to sideline the fact that you are the third biggest wagon, if counting the intend to vote.

[h3ll0]

I know this is a little late, but...

I'm not really sure how you got to that, I just looked at the votecount and saw that aln and Zd were both at L-2. I guess if you want to mix it up again that's fine. Do you have a case against me this time, or is my comment just making you uneasy? As far as I can tell, you've never voiced suspicion against me before.

True, I never did voiced suspicions against you prior. I choose to vote for you because I didn't feel that either the case on Alpnka and Zdenek was solid. And to me your post read "we can only vote for Zdenek or Alpnka", which certainly wasn't true.

[h3ll0]

Well... that was unexpected. Why would he have been making up a case against me and pushing it so hard? Crap. I guess I should apologize to the rest of the town for getting that wrong; sorry about that. I thought for sure he was scum and it just doesn't make sense to me.

@h3ll0

- I guess I can sort of see that, but it's pretty fishy to me. It certainly was a convenient time to try and jump on my wagon. That said... ST's case against you was accurate (clarification for shotty: the things he said were true, NOT that I necessarily think you are scum), but as he pointed out himself, the case was really weak.

So what exactly do you think of me? Scum or Town? You obviously enjoy to give open-ended "opinions" which doesn't lock you into a stance.

[h3ll0]

@h3ll0

Do you have anything to say in regards to ST's case against you?

I'm not sure if there is anything that I want to add that I haven't already said during my defence from Zdenek's case. I've already explained my rationale for voting you on Day 1, I agree with him that my case on Zdenek was weak, as it was more or less due to frustration more than logic (AKA it was OMGUS). I still stand by my view that Fatso/Kard is still scummy and I don't see how people call Alpnka scummy, while thinking that Fatso/Kard is town, when the later has done more stuff that is scummy.

[h3ll0]

I guess I didn't explain it very good, my theory was that if he survived N1 he was scum, and I came up with this before N1.

Why do I think he's the strongest player? He's certainly the most active, and he's definitely been putting the most pressure on people. Do you really think scum would let this slip by? I mean, they killed ST of all people, I think it was merely to make everyone look as far away from him as possible, has he didn't have a large amount of interaction with him.

More likely that the mafia suspect ST to be a PR and stuff. Which kinds of made sense as his play wasn't particularly spectacular for an IC.

[h3ll0]

It's a mild slip, but it sure sounds to me like you KNOW that the cop is our only power role in this game. There could still be a doc around, unless you happen to know there isn't...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Mafia do not know how many power roles there are in a basic game. All they know is who is Mafia, and hence who is town.

On the other hand, this lack of knowledge pretty much clears you as town as well.

[h3ll0]

It's a mild slip, but it sure sounds to me like you KNOW that the cop is our only power role in this game. There could still be a doc around, unless you happen to know there isn't...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Mafia do not know how many power roles there are in a basic game. All they know is who is Mafia, and hence who is town.

On the other hand, this lack of knowledge pretty much clears you as town as well.

Scratch that, I just went to check the game setup, and you may be right.

Vote chkflip

[h3ll0]

But bad play could lead to misdirecting town. And that could be quite scummy. But I'm only interpreting.
Concerning chkflip: I’m not really sure whether that "slip" is a real slip. It could be a mistyping or even a not-knowing. Nevertheless it is interesting.

Fence-sitting again? I'm starting to suspect that Bulvious is correct about you. You make a lot of post without much indications of your opinions.

FOS alnkpa

[h3ll0]

18

out of 27 posts he mentions me. 2/3 of his posts mention me, and he only mentions ANY other player less than 1/3 of the time. He's got some serious tunneling issues. But that's not really a big deal.

Not sure what's the point of you saying this if you think "that's not really a big deal".

He asks me to claim when I'm at L-2... but when Zd actually makes it to L-1 he doesn't bother to ask for a claim. Instead he throws out some random speculation that maybe Zd and I are the scumteam? As evidenced above, he never once mentioned Zd's play or any suspicions of him. Then all the sudden Zd and I are the scum team? If it turns out I'm right and Zd does flip scum, he's got his foot further in the door against me. Though it's worth noting that he accuses me of bussing Zd... for 10 days... when I led the wagon against him. I guess that's possible, but it'd be the worst bus in the history of mafia probably.

I'm not sure if this is a scumtell at all. If drmyshottyizsik is mafia, he would know if Zdenek is town or mafia to begin with, making your hypothetical situtation only possible if he is town.

His recently flipy-flopy on chkflip and related. He comments that we are blowing it out of proportion, but then he says he'd hammer chkflip if he doesn't post more. Didn't he chastise me for saying that I'd be willing to lynch a lurker?

Note: this is the second time that a wagon has reached L-1 and he has all of the sudden decided that he would vote for that person. As mentioned above, when Zd was at L-1, he came out of no where with the "Workdawg/Zd scumteam". Now alnpka put chkflip at L-1 and all of the sudden shotty is willing to hammer him if his play doesn't pick up. It's might suspicious if you ask me.

That's true, drmyshottyizsik, please respond to this (other than the OMGUS which isn't a scumtell, if you ask me).

[h3ll0]

You guys should read through the Kard slot. Not just Kard, but the whole slot; you might be surprised to notice that, in every person in that slot, both that person AND WD have been "null/town" without a single discrepency the whole time no matter the situation.

This doesn't sit well with me. Super sorry my case post hasn't come to fruition yet, like I've said before uni has three weeks until it's out and I've got a lot of final projects etc. I implore everyone re-read the Kard slot and even the WD slot.

I agree with you that Fatso/Kard/thunderwielder is pretty scummy. But I don't think we should start to hunt in scumteam until at least one of the scum has been caught and lynched. I'm not really seeing the connection between thunderwielder and Workdawg at the moment to be honest.

[h3ll0]

Al - He's been here for the whole time (not subbing out), and in my opinion he seems town. Even though he’s taken a long time in between posts, and his posts are pretty short, that can be because of the language barrier and the time difference. At least that’s what my gut is telling me to attribute it to.

Really? I'm not seeing any (linguistic) problems with his posts. As a matter of fact, time difference is not a valid excuse for him, as I have seen him online more than once since Bulvious and my most recent accusation to him, yet he has not been responding. Time difference may excuse him from replying immediately, but not from avoiding the issue altogether via lurking.

Shotty – Shotty seems to be tunnelling pretty hard right now and responds very angrily to lots and lots of things. He subbed in for BananaStickers, who I had no read on because she didn’t post ever, but he’s voting and replies seem too irrational and sporadic to be considered Mafia. If it is a ploy, by being loud and obnoxious, it is working on me because I think he’s just a town. I don’t feel Mafia members would act the way he’s been acting, but I could be wrong.

And Star is dead and Zd is dead, so they are off the list.

SO, that leaves me with
In no particular order.
First) Bulvious
After looking through a couple other games with people from this forum in it, I've come to realize that I can't base my conclusions on people's "meta" I think it's called. Which is their previous games and the style in which they play that game, right? (Someone please correct me if I've gotten the word/term wrong)
In the last game, where you were a cop, you talked a lot and in this game you talk a lot. I'm very glad that you are committed to the game, and you appear to know what you’re doing.
My issue with you is how hard you’ve been gunning for Al. Maybe it’s because I’m getting a town read on him, and you’re not, and that’s what’s propelling my suspicions on you.
I think it’s post 313 (this was one of the only post numbers I’ve written down—halfway through reading I thought to myself “Gee, I should really start writing notes!”) but you have a post that is written with emotion and continues to berate Al for not scumhunting enough. Or at least not writing enough information. I guess I’m chalking this up to Al’s language (I’m not harping on it, Al, I just think that there is a distinct difference between first and second languages). It just seems that you expound a lot of energy on Al for not a lot of payoff.
There’s also Star’s case against you. He calls you on wagon jumping, which you defend, and there is hardly more said on the matter. But I think he might have been on to something, in terms of you calling on everyone around you and not putting your foot down on them—instead you settle your attentions on someone who I see to be a newbie.
It is also something to consider, that Star is dead now. It is very very convenient that his last vote was on h3llo and not on you, but there was a case on you before, and he had you in his sights before, so maybe eliminating him is a way to stop him from honing in again.

Two) h3ll0
I don’t have much to back this up other than my gut instinct. I don’t know why, but your posts have struck me as odd. Maybe it’s just because you’re not posting nearly as frequently or as invested as you were in the other game that I reviewed (because you’re working, you say). Bulvious has maintained his “meta” so to speak, and you are seeming to deviate from it.

If you realised, my activity in that game also dipped after Day 1.

It’s also curious to me that, before I’ve even posted my thoughts or suspicions about the game, you have thrown me into the Fatso/Kard slot of suspicious behaviour. Well, it’s not curious, I understand if you have your motivations from before. This is not a OMGUS thing. Reading through the posts before, I think I understand Fatso and Kard’s action. I think Fatso was new and excited and Kard didn’t really contribute, but he clearly waited all he could until casting the vote against Zd.

You replaced into the Fatso/Kard slot. Being replaced/a replacement does not invalidate the accusations on you caused by your predecessor. In addition to Fatso's fence-sitting and Kard's lack of contribution (a bit of pot calling kettle here, I know), the fact that both of them replaced out after been accused of being scummy does not help your position. You obviously, know that though, judging from your last paragraph.

Also, Star has cast his vote on you and died. Again, it could be taken in two ways. Mafia are trying to frame you, or you are trying to make us think the Mafia is framing you. Or maybe the Mafia didn’t even take that into account. I know this is WIFOM, but it is something to think about. Based on my read from what you’ve said, my gut says you’d be more likely to kill Star and frame the others. I really have no basis for this interpretation other than my reading of you or how you’ve played this. I’ve just finished reading the entire 21 pages, so my memory of time and places of who said what is a little vague. Even so, that’s what I think and hopefully this will get this thread back on the road and back into a discussion. Because since I got accepted, nothing’s really been happening.

If anything, StarTransmission's NK will result in me getting suspected as he was last voting me.

And Three)Chkflip
Chkflip strikes me as a little bit of an oddity. I’m not saying you’re a weirdo, Chk, I just don’t think your actions make a lot of sense.
You have been brought up to L -1, and yet you haven’t managed to post your case yet. You’re also playing in a lot of other games right now, but I’d think if your head was this close to the chopping block, you’d devote a little bit more attention to this game. This stalling tactic seems to me as if you know people are on to you, and if you can hold them off until closer to the deadline, and then quickly direct your attention towards Workdawg, you might live until the next night.

I sort of agree with this. Would like Chkflip to post his case as promised ASAP though.

[h3ll0]

Whoops, pressed the wrong (Submit instead of Preview) button.

Al - He's been here for the whole time (not subbing out), and in my opinion he seems town. Even though he’s taken a long time in between posts, and his posts are pretty short, that can be because of the language barrier and the time difference. At least that’s what my gut is telling me to attribute it to.

Really? I'm not seeing any (linguistic) problems with his posts. As a matter of fact, time difference is not a valid excuse for him, as I have seen him online more than once since Bulvious and my most recent accusation to him, yet he has not been responding. Time difference may excuse him from replying immediately, but not from avoiding the issue altogether via lurking.

Two) h3ll0
I don’t have much to back this up other than my gut instinct. I don’t know why, but your posts have struck me as odd. Maybe it’s just because you’re not posting nearly as frequently or as invested as you were in the other game that I reviewed (because you’re working, you say). Bulvious has maintained his “meta” so to speak, and you are seeming to deviate from it.

If you realised, my activity in that game also dipped after Day 1.

It’s also curious to me that, before I’ve even posted my thoughts or suspicions about the game, you have thrown me into the Fatso/Kard slot of suspicious behaviour. Well, it’s not curious, I understand if you have your motivations from before. This is not a OMGUS thing. Reading through the posts before, I think I understand Fatso and Kard’s action. I think Fatso was new and excited and Kard didn’t really contribute, but he clearly waited all he could until casting the vote against Zd.

You replaced into the Fatso/Kard slot. Being replaced/a replacement does not invalidate the accusations on you caused by your predecessor. In addition to Fatso's fence-sitting and Kard's lack of contribution (a bit of pot calling kettle here, I know), the fact that both of them replaced out after been accused of being scummy does not help your position. You obviously, know that though, judging from your last paragraph.

Also, Star has cast his vote on you and died. Again, it could be taken in two ways. Mafia are trying to frame you, or you are trying to make us think the Mafia is framing you. Or maybe the Mafia didn’t even take that into account. I know this is WIFOM, but it is something to think about. Based on my read from what you’ve said, my gut says you’d be more likely to kill Star and frame the others. I really have no basis for this interpretation other than my reading of you or how you’ve played this. I’ve just finished reading the entire 21 pages, so my memory of time and places of who said what is a little vague. Even so, that’s what I think and hopefully this will get this thread back on the road and back into a discussion. Because since I got accepted, nothing’s really been happening.

If anything, StarTransmission's NK will result in me getting suspected as he was last voting me.

And Three)Chkflip
Chkflip strikes me as a little bit of an oddity. I’m not saying you’re a weirdo, Chk, I just don’t think your actions make a lot of sense.
You have been brought up to L -1, and yet you haven’t managed to post your case yet. You’re also playing in a lot of other games right now, but I’d think if your head was this close to the chopping block, you’d devote a little bit more attention to this game. This stalling tactic seems to me as if you know people are on to you, and if you can hold them off until closer to the deadline, and then quickly direct your attention towards Workdawg, you might live until the next night.

I sort of agree with this. Would like Chkflip to post his case as promised ASAP though.

[h3ll0]

I would bump for activity, but I can't do much with the scum not posting.

Wait, what? Who is the scum who is "not posting"?

[h3ll0]

I then read through h3llo's post history, and I now have remembered why I found him to be scummy in the first place.

If you look back through the posts he was one of the first people to vote for Zd, and then retracted in post 286 when Zd finally speaks up and makes a case.

I already said that my vote on him was OMGUS. I mean, what do you expect me to react when someone posts a weakish case on you?

But then he jumps onto voting for Fatso right after that, with hardly a reason. This seems very OMGUS, kind of like his vote for Zd.

Three posts later, Bulvious makes this comment

Actually, yes, I would say so. In the last game, h3ll0 had a case, maintained and pursued that case, althroughout the game. This game... I don't really see that from him. In fact, I can't think (off the top of my head) of a great case he's made this game, or has attempted to make.

in response to Zd's question about h3llo's play style this round of the game. A job shouldn't stop people from making sound, logical arguments.

Ability to make sound, logical argument =/= having enough patience and dedication to create solid cases.

In 189, I think Fatso was just speculating without quotes, making a mistake that I made in my first post of the game. And his second example, coming about a hundred posts later, doesn't represent a contradiction. He says you are scummy. He says Zd made a case against you. And he remarks on the suspicion of Zd because of his hesitance to post long informed responses.

He said he had suspicions on me (in addition to Zdenek's case). Whatever the "suspicions" were, it was never mentioned. To me it was him trying to cover up the fact that he was basically barning Zdenek, was no additional input.

This post says pretty much nothing, except for the obvious fearmongering (I think that's the term) in his second and last sentence. He is trying to make Zd afraid to lynch him by claiming to be town.

At that point, I was resigned to the fact that Zdenek's case on me was solid and basically thought that I would be lynched already.

He doesn't really answer the question about his change of game style, as noted by Bulvious. Instead, he says "I'm a very passive player", and "Even in that game". He's not addressing the change that Bulvious has noted, and hopes to let it slide under the radar.
And then he posts a rather uninformed question, considering the answer should be obvious as Fatso just asked to be subbed out of the game and Chk was being sympathetic and felt bad about a previous comment. I think this obvious nature is represented by someone else in a couple posts after this.

Number 1, I feel that Bulvious's observations of me based on our previous game was not correct.
Number 2, why should anyone unvote a person simply because he feels sympathy? If you post a case that was strong enough that caused the suspect to actually drop out of the game, most likely the suspect is guilty. Why stop and unvote?

He doesn't give reasoning for it other than that, but instead slides onto the Workdawg bandwagon. And then doesn't make any other comments until the beginning of Day Two. Unfortunately for him, Workdawg is still alive, and he has to make a feeble attempt at an accusation and a justification for his vote since now everyone is looking towards Workdawg and who voted for him. He half-heartedly reiterates his previous point, and tries to justify his bandwagoning.
He is also the first one to post after Day Two begins... but now that I look back, it seems everyone was not quick to reply to the beginning of Day Two so nevermind...

I didn't agree with the two wagons that Workdawg pointed out, and felt that what he said was scummy as it had shown the town a false dilema. The fact that the day ended on a weekend didn't help (AKA I didn't have time to post until Day 2).

I don't think he's been doing a lot to contribute to the town, and a lot of his discussion in the beginning stages of the game were spent talking about the lurker lynch policy, which he managed to then lead to a vote against Zd when he was called out on not talking about anything. Then, after that, I still don't see enough contribution or creation of legitimate cases. He spends a lot of time defending himself against Z, and then fails to post offensive cases, in depth ones at least, against anyone.

Yeah, I know that already, I'm not contributing enough. If you want to vote me for that, so be it.

[h3ll0]

Hey shotty's tunnling who he thinks is scum to avoid lylo! What scumz!!

So answer the questions. Who do you think is most likely to be the "scum's" partner?

[h3ll0]

I'm not arguing the contrary. I'm saying that you haven't done either.
And creating solid cases is kind of how this game is played...

I haven't been coming out with logical arguments? Or are you too blinded with the fact that I attacked you replacee which he couldn't/wouldn't reflute?

This is a very different statement. And now it seems to me you're trying to recover from what you said previously, because you didn't provide a substantial case then.

I had more than one reasons to vote him. First was that he was constantly fence-sitting on issues. The second was that he keeps saying that he was suspicious of me, and yet could not provide any examples of what he was suspicious about.

Which again seems really obvious. Especially after Fatso was leaving DUE TO MEDICAL REASONS. Chk had no other information other than this, felt like some of the reasoning for Fatso's leaving was on him, and unvoted him out of condolences for the real world. If he had felt a reason to revote for him afterwards, I'm sure he would have, but it seems like everything had already been resolved from their debate prior to Fatso's leaving.

To be honest, I don't buy Fatso's "Medical Reasons" as valid reasons to drop out of the game. It seems too coincidental that his "medical reasons" popped out immediately after he was subjected to a valid, albeit harsh case.

[h3ll0]

I'm sorry, almost forgot about the game to be honest.

@thunderwielder: What is it that you want me to respond to? Your opinion that there is one scum in the wagon and one not in it? I'm not sure if it is valid, as while it is highly unlikely that both scums will avoid the wagon (ignoring the fact that I know my own alignment), it is also not implausible that both the scums are on the wagon. In fact, I believe that both scums would tend to join the shotty wagon, as it is pretty easy for the mafia to hide in it. Judging from the reactions/interactions between the three players, Workdawg and chkflip are unlikely to be both mafias.

I will re-read the thread later.

[h3ll0]

Nope, I'm definitely not blinded. And a gibe is not a rebuttal.
(look, h3ll0, that's how you answer a question. With a sentence. NOT with another question.)
Show me your logical arguments. Because right now I haven't seen any. QUOTE THEM for me. I think I've provided enough of your non-arguments.

You have your posting style, I have mine. I don't see how it makes me scum in any case.

Well, if you had more than one reason to vote for him, why didn't you state that when you made your case for him. Instead of saying something that wasn't actually anything.

I did state (both) my reasons.

I don't think it was very harsh at all. I think it was a good case calling him out on things that he was doing wrong (from Chk). However, after Chk made his huge case, and Fatso kind of responded half-heartedly, and Chk responded with another big list - Bulvious pointed out that Fatso's actions were more likely newb town, and it seemed like Chk agreed with him.
If your thoughts about Fatso being scum were so strong, why didn't you follow up with them? You could still be pursuing that case. Instead you jumped on the Chk bandwagon - the guy who made a much stronger case against Fatso than you, and are now trying to get him lynched, if my memory of the last vote count serves.
Either way, if you're still feeling so strongly about Fatso and now me being a member of the Mafia, why don't you pursue it and back it up with sound, logical arguments, instead of jumping on whoever you think's going to get lynched the quickest.

I think that the pressure vote on chkflip was justified, as he did made a post that was possible scumslip. In addition, if Fatso/Kard/Thunderwielder is scum, and Chkflip creates a case on him and drops it almost immediately, it could possibly be an act of bussing/ distancing of Fatso/Kard/Thunderwielder.

Still on my re-read.

[h3ll0]

chkflip
- Leaning Scum
- Generates plenty of solid cases, and suspiciously jumps from them in last minute.

Seeker99
- Leaning Scum
- Have the tendency to go for the easier lynch (he voted me immediately, without reading, then jumped to drmyshottyizsik, no notable content.
- Replaced Alpnka who didn't do much either.

thunderwielder
- Neutral
- Played pretty pro-town so far.
- Replaced Kard/Fatso whose actions have been scummy, makes me disinclined to mark him as town.

Workdawg
- Leaning Town

[h3ll0]

I believe that chkflip's gambit makes him more likely to be town than scum to be honest.

And also, in all scenarios, you guys are assuming me to be scum.

@thunderwielder: You are contradicting yourself. If seeker69 is not posting enough, how is he being "playing well"? Similarly, his replacee, alpnka did little to contribute, and generally flew under the radar.

Also:
From post #286

(1)

Fence-sitting much?

This is not the first time you have done sometime like this too. If you find me distinctly scummy, why aren't you voting for me? Further more, this is also the second time

(2)

you mentioned your suspicions for me. And yet, you have not pointed them out.