Newbie 1089: GAME OVER

[Vino91]

Response to Thian^^^

1. Play rugby. Enjoy watching cycling and formula 1. Study engineering.

2. None.

3. Because I'm Town.

4. No.

5. One.

6. No, because I don't believe there's anything to read from such a question.

Answers to your own questions Thian?

VOTE: RICO ACT

[Vino91]

Personally, I believe fake-claiming when you're town is idiotic. I saw this happen in a real life game, when the town were on the verge of winning, where a player fake-claimed cop to get a player voted off because he had a strong tell on that player (he did admittedly do it in the heat of the moment without really thinking.. but still), and ended up getting lynched himself as the real cop was still around. As you can imagine this confused the hell out of the town.

And self-voting goes against the spirit of the game.. end of story. You're blatantly playing against your win condition with no possible benefit to be gained. I believe such actions should get one banned.

[Vino91]

@Kiari:

This is probably a perfect example for the value of random questioning. Effectively, it's lead to you and Thian being in a semi-heated discussion which hopefully will lead to everyone being able to learn more about both of you. I understand you might have a personal issue with random questioning, but for the sake of the game, please just answer the questions without being stupid about it. If you're town then there's nothing to worry about if you answer truthfully, if you're scummy, well then continue doing whatever you want to do and we'll come to our own conclusions. All I'm saying is that it just seems strange the way you're currently putting up such a fight towards these questions and trying to put questions back on Thian.

@McGriddle:

I prefer playing town as I always feel there's less pressure as you don't have to lie about anything.

[Vino91]

@Thian:

Lying about your role, is not good practice. If you can't be truthful the first time about you role, how will anyone trust you later on when it counts? It is a risk that could cost a win. Yes, there will be times for power roles to hide and claim Vanilla Town ((VT for short)). However, in general practice, you want to be open, honest and transparent with all answers.

I almost (almost!) get the feeling you trying to get the power roles to reveal themselves at this early stage of the game, which I believe is incorrect.

[Vino91]

@I Am Innocent:

I'm very suspicious of this little skirmish going on between Kiari and Thian, however, I'm still trying to decide which side of the fence I sit on. Kiari is blatantly avoiding answering simple questions and keeps trying to turn the questions around on Thian, which seems fairly scummy to me. Yet, at the same time, I also feel Thian is doing his very best to make sure we notice this "scummy" behaviour of Kiari without actually putting it in writing himself, which also makes me suspicious of him (Thian, that is).

I was also not impressed with the following reply I got from Thian as I got the feeling he was trying to intimidate me into keeping quiet about my suspicions over him hinting at the power roles to reveal them themselves:

Vino:
That's not the purpose of that post. That purpose of that post was to aknowedge that lying about your role is not good, yet there will be times that you need to. Not to out a power role. The continuation of discussion about them this early is not good Vino. So please don't bring that up right now.

I considered his original comment may just have been badly worded and I questioned to simply gauge his reaction, which I then sensed a fair amount of intimidation in.

What do you think is the scummiest thing so far, I Am Innocent?

[Vino91]

This should also have gone in the above post but I only stumbled upon this thought process after I posted.

Vino91, what is the scummiest thing you have seen in this game so far.

I Am Innocent, this post of yours also gets me a bit suspicious actually, as I don't think it would have taken a rocket scientist to see where my focus was in the game, which leads me to believe you wanted me to give the answer I gave (hence why the question was only aimed at me perhaps?) and perhaps take the attention off you?

[Vino91]

@I Am Innocent:

I'm very suspicious of this little skirmish going on between Kiari and Thian, however,

I'm still trying to decide which side of the fence I sit on

.

Not a big fan of the way you worded that statement.

What the saying means is that I am, as of yet, undecided as to which of the two I'm more willing to back as being more town until I have analysed the situation further.

What attention? Three RVS votes because of my name? Are you kidding me?

They may be random, but its still attention is it not?

Speaking of which, can you explain why you contradict yourself in those two posts:

1) I don't think it would have taken a rocket scientist to see where my focus was in the game
2) I'm still trying to decide which side of the fence I sit on

I don't believe there's any contradiction here. Prior to answering your question about what I believed to be the scummiest thing so far, I had only commented on two things in the game, the skirmish (as a whole) between Kiari and Thian (not whose side I was taking), and the fact that I thought Thian was hinting at the power roles to reveal themselves. So my focus was clearly on these two incidents, so this is where my suspicions would most probably lie. You were not involved in any of these incidents so you knew you were safe, at that point, of my suspicions. Essentially, you knew, that whatever I put down as the scummiest thing, would not include you.

Between the comments above as well as throwing in your paranoia about why I only questioned you, and you are now on my Top 2 Suspect List.

Who's the other suspect?

[Vino91]

Kiari is blatantly avoiding answering simple questions and keeps trying to turn the questions around on Thian, which seems fairly scummy to me.

First you tell us, Kiari turning questions back on me is scummy Presuming you meant the "What are you hiding Kiari" question and her replying "what are YOU, hiding Thian"

Vino91, what is the scummiest thing you have seen in this game so far.

Then, I am innocent asks

What do you think is the scummiest thing so far, I Am Innocent?

Then you ask the same question Vino later on turning it back on I am innocent, in the same paragraph as the first quote I posted of yours Vino.

So, in this instance, would it be fair to say, you had done exactly what Kiari has done, and would that be scummy?

Good point, actually. That is why I'm an engineer and not a lawyer.

I would love to leave it at that but I feel that would be an admission of guilt, which I'm not, so here is an attempt at rebuttle: When I was referring to Kiari turning the questions back on you I was meaning the more "allegation" type questions such as "what are you hiding?", whereas, in this case I was simply trying to get his opinion on something, no implications or allegations involved.

@I Am Innocent:

I'm very suspicious of this little skirmish going on between Kiari and Thian, however,

I'm still trying to decide which side of the fence I sit on

.

Not a big fan of the way you worded that statement.

What the saying means is that I am, as of yet, undecided as to which of the two I'm more willing to back as being more town until I have analysed the situation further.

Vino, what happens if I am town and Kiari is town? You seem pretty sure that one of us is scum. Why is that?

Yes, I haven't written off that possibility, that is why I said "more town", implying that both of you may still possibly be town.

What attention? Three RVS votes because of my name? Are you kidding me?

They may be random, but its still attention is it not?

But why would I want to or have to deflect random attention?

I reckon any type of attention is pressurising to scum.

Speaking of which, can you explain why you contradict yourself in those two posts:

1) I don't think it would have taken a rocket scientist to see where my focus was in the game
2) I'm still trying to decide which side of the fence I sit on

I don't believe there's any contradiction here. Prior to answering your question about what I believed to be the scummiest thing so far, I had only commented on two things in the game, the skirmish (as a whole) between Kiari and Thian (not whose side I was taking), and the fact that I thought Thian was hinting at the power roles to reveal themselves. So my focus was clearly on these two incidents, so this is where my suspicions would most probably lie. You were not involved in any of these incidents so you knew you were safe, at that point, of my suspicions. Essentially, you knew, that whatever I put down as the scummiest thing, would not include you.

Do you think if I asked that question to anyone else at that point in the game, that it would have included me?

No, but I think you thought asking me was fairly safe option to get the attention on Kiari and Thian. I feel I surprised you by noticing that it was strange that you were only asking one person.

Guess which side it benefits more to not take stances. I'll give you a hint, it not the town side...

Someone (can't remember who) said early on that there was a correlation between day 1 durations and town victories, so why should I take a stance so early, with minimal evidence, and risk getting it wrong. Are you trying to rush me?

[Vino91]

Guess which side it benefits more to not take stances. I'll give you a hint, it not the town side...

Someone (can't remember who) said early on that there was a correlation between day 1 durations and town victories, so why should I take a stance so early, with minimal evidence, and risk getting it wrong. Are you trying to rush me?

Rush you into saying what is the scummiest thing you have seen as of Post X??? You were going back and forth on two players, and I wanted you to say as of Point X, I found this person more scummy because of this scummy thing.

If you ask me, as of the point I asked you, I have no problem saying that I think Thian was more scummy than Kiari. See it's not that hard. But either you are afraid to be backed into a corner, or you are afraid to make enemies, both of which hint scum.

Afraid of making enemies!? That's laughable considering I've openly shown my suspicion of the actions of three players so far.

[Vino91]

Afraid of making enemies!? That's laughable considering I've openly shown my suspicion of the actions of three players so far.

Yet I notice your vote is not on any of the three players so far.

Talk <> Action

Patience, I Am Innocent, patience.

English is not your first language, is it Jora?

Who's Jora?

[Vino91]

I also like the votes on RICO ACT. I don't have time to read now, but I agree with the ToD post that McG quoted.

Unvote; Vote: RICO ACT

(L-2 I believe. I could be wrong though)

If you put him at L-1 you'd better have a damn good reason.

Surely this logic is incorrect Kiari? Why would the person putting RICO ACT at L1 need more of a reason than you putting RICO ACT at L2?

[Vino91]

This feels far too rushed for me, lets atleast give him a chance to respond.

UNVOTE: RICO ACT

[Vino91]

I feel far more strongly voting for I Am Innocent or Thian at this stage, I had suspicions of Thian from early on, so:

VOTE: Thian

[Vino91]

Sorry for the long absence.. Work has been intense

Vino, explain why you feel I am more scummy? What exactly ((besides a debate between Kiari and I)) has prompted you to feel I am more scummy than say, Mcgriddle who has not offered much in opening up? or }|{opa ? Who's line of questioning on religion at this point, I am trying to find relevancy with. Or Trumpet Of Doom who has offered more information on how to play mafia, than actually trying to scum hunt?

I felt you were pushing too hard in the debate in order for us to be lead into believing Kiari was scummy. I mean, I definitely felt that for a while until I was informed that, foolish as it is, Kiari seems to play like that in every game. Seeing as you are an experienced player, I suspect you saw it as a possible easy lynch.

I think its just natural for me to suspect someone to be scummy once they have done things that I felt were scummy rather than just "not offering much", as is the case with McGriddle.

As for opa with his religion questioning, I have no problem with it. Its just the same as any random questioning you have done. I have not sensed any judgement or prejudices coming through with the questions so until then, I think he can ask what he wants to be honest.

Reading back through the posts, I don't believe you have much of a point regarding Trumpet of Doom. He has argued most points of conflict that have come up so far as well as supplying information on mafia, so right now I'm not buying your version of him trying to dodge scum hunting.

Are you not ready to question Kiari either Vino? What I don't understand Vino is, when you said you couldn't decide between Kiari and I which one is more town. The implication is at this point, that you believe one of us to be more scummy than the next. How can one be more town than another. you are either Town, or you are Scum. You can't really be MORE town. It's like sticking your hand in water. Once it's wet, its wet, it can't get more wet.

This baffles me.. comparing sticking your hand in to water to how someone is acts in a game of mafia and how I perceive those actions. At any one time I would have a feeling of who I believe to be "more scummy" or "more town" than anyone else, and whether my impressions are wrong or right, it is definitely still possible!

Also, I believe that when I am innocent had said that I am more scum than Kiari, he mentioned my name. you voted, because I am prompted you to do so, without giving proper reasoning behind it. A drive by voting so to speak.

No, I voted for you because at this current time my feeling is strongest for as scum. Simple.

Good to see I'm in the hotseat for being inactive. Flawless scummy logic.

No, thats not the reason actually, but nice try.

[Vino91]

Vino, debate between players is healthy, not scummy. If Kiari was such an easy lynch, do you not feel more people would have jumped onto her by now?

Also, do you know for a fact that Kiari plays like that every game? Have you played in a game with her yourself? or are you just taking someones word for it?

No, I do not know, I think I took I Am Innocent's word for it, I don't think he would lie about something that one could so easily check up on. Perhaps this information is why now Kiari is no longer regarded as an easy lynch.

If you want to talk about easy lynches so far. Mcgriddle, Rico Act and opa are prime easy target lynches for scum to be going after. So you may want to start looking at those people who are lingering their votes there.

Why is it that I am not regarded an easy lynch aswell? I believe I have two votes, more than McGriddle and opa have so far. Am I not easy because you, with your vast experience, have decided that I am a justifiable lynch?

I could just as easily say at this point, i am an easy lynch target because most people fear an IC in the game and you are demonstrating the want to get the IC out. So you don't have to worry about a some what experienced mafia player.

I voted for you because I am most suspicious of you at this point, IC or not, please don't try and get my or the other players sympathy again due to your experience levels.

[Vino91]

You are unable to question more people than just myself? Why tunnel?

Fair enough, I will attempt a more diverse questioning from now on. This said, however, my vote is still remaining with you until I find someone who I feel is "more scummy". Please refer to earlier posts as to how someone can be more or less scummy than someone else.

Taking someones word for something, does not mean it is true, if you, yourself have not experienced it. Even if you think you know someone by experience, they can easily fool you by switching up their game style.

Yes, I understand that, but in this case, its sounds like this is exactly the way Kiari acted in her last match where she was incorrectly lynched on day one. She brought mislynching up in her first post in this game:

I got lynched Day 1 in my last game (months ago) because nobody would listen to me and they thought I was scummy (I was a VT). The scum ended up winning, obviously.

@Kiari:

Why did you feel the need to let us know about this mislynching so early on in this game?

Vino, you stretched one of my posts way too far out of context, I find that scummy, and now that you were deciding between kiari and I which "More Town" leaving the other person to be your suspect I find it funny you start taking the word of I am innocent and buddy up with his opinion and vote that way without bothering to engage conversation with kiari.

Which post was this exactly?

Anyway, since Thian, ToD, and IAI decided to give me advice, I may as well take it.

@ Sigma:

Can you please tell me why you feel you can safely take the advice of these three players when it comes to voting? Especially at such an early time in the game.

Then he's[RICO ACT] been posting elsewhere but not here. The fact that he hasn't been able to provide an ample defense just makes it impossible to clear any suspicion.

@ RICO ACT:

I don't want to say anything inappropriate considering your family circumstances, but if this is really the case, them how come you have found time to post elsewhere on this forum but our game seems to be put on hold?

@ SigmaEXE003:

I feel we still have enough time until the deadline to wait for a sufficient response from RICO ACT before needing to vote, however, I must say I feel the whole not-posting-in-this-game-but-posting-elsewhere is suspicious to say the least.

[Vino91]

I would be questioning anyones vote on me. Why are you avoiding I Am Innocent and not asking reasons as to why his vote is on you? Why, when my vote is on you, do you question me more than I am.

Don't worry, Thian, I haven't forgotten about your little buddy. As I said, my vote is on you because I had suspicions of you earlier than I had suspicions of I Am Innocent. I will vote for someone if I believe them to be scummy, and not just for a reason such as he voted for me, therefore I will vote for him.

What is there to ask him.. I believe he's given his reasons for voting for me already, and nothing I can ask is going to change my feelings of suspicion towards him. Any questioning I do is not an attempt to get votes on me changed or understood, rather simply because I want the questions answered.

@ RICO ACT Why you said that your family member died?

The "do not lie" rule should not be applied to real life! Just you could have said like your family member recovered.

For God's sake, you should not have mentioned this whole matter at the first place! I don't like you regardless of your game alliance. And even more so - in my games it was only scums who maked things like that. Just saying.

I have done a bit of research here into other games and it seems RICO ACT has indeed said the same thing in each of his games that he is playing, so I doubt he is making it up, which is what you seem to be implying, opa.

And, I revoke my FoS from Thian. He was creepy, and I've been angry. But on second thought I've realized that it rather town-read.

Why is this a town read? Are you afraid to invoke the wrath of our IC?

Can you please tell me why you feel you can safely take the advice of these three players when it comes to voting? Especially at such an early time in the game

This seems significantly far-fetched, and I disagree with your reasoning 100%, you should NEVER just take everyone elses advice because in this game ANYONE can be scum. Unvote; Vote: SigmaEXE003

Well, I'm taking their advice because they're here to help me.

They're also there to win the game for their particular alignment, so if thats different to yours, then its probably not best to take their advice.

I haven't seen anything particularly scummy come from these players, so I feel safe enough to trust them.

Well then we're on different wavelengths with regards to I Am Innocent and Thian...

[Vino91]

@ Thian All people are posting, right? Somebody less, but not very abusive. Your advice is out of place.
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16935

Why am I quoted here, Thian? I did not say this.

Are you,

American people,

always tell others, the strangers from the internet, the people whom you do not really know about things like that, about your family affairs, losses?

Woah! That's a problem. That's a huge problem. Don't be prejudice against Americans. That's not gonna work. This isn't the first time you've targeted a race or religion, either.

Are you Judaist or Hinduist or Buddhist or Islamist or one of those

creepy Hare Krishnas?

May be the Children of the Atom?

UNVOTE: RICO ACT
VOTE: }|{opa

Sigma, how are opa's views OUT of the game indicative of him being scum IN the game?

[Vino91]

@ Vino
They're not, directly, but I really don't feel comfortable playing with someone who's going to personally attack players. It's not that his views indicate scumminess, it's that he attacks others because of, in this case, where they live. The fact that he brings that into the game unnecessarily is just wrong, and scum in my eyes.

And I hadn't paid it much attention, but now ToD has brought up the fact that opa has compared Thian's playing to Nazi style. This isn't getting any better.

}|{opa, why does race/religion seem so important to you?

This post and vote is very similar in nature to the one made by RICO ACT in #40 that has caused him to come under suspicion as it seems like an easy way to place a vote that if it ultimately results in the lynching of opa, and he flips town, you can defend yourself by saying you voted due to his real life views, and not because of what you thought of him in the game.

[Vino91]

His excuse for clearing you [Thian] as town was... Well, I don't accept it to say the least.

I agree with this statement. When I read that he had withdrawn his suspicions I immediately had the feeling he was attempting to avoid Thian's attacks, which would undoubtedly have come had he placed any serious pressure on Thian.

Vino, I didn't vote for opa because of his real life views. I voted for him because he brought them into this game unnecessarily, and that his posts seem to be more personal attacks than scum hunting.

@ Thian You're most annoying IC I've ever seen.

@ RICO ACT Why you said that your family member died? The "do not lie" rule should not be applied to real life! Just you could have said like your family member recovered. For God's sake, you should not have mentioned this whole matter at the first place!

I don't like you regardless of your game alliance.

And even more so - in my games it was only scums who maked things like that. Just saying.

OMG! New post. You just keep annoying me. Stop, please. Let the game breathe.

Contrary to what I said in post #131, I have changed my mind and do actually like your reasoning with this vote, Sigma.

UNVOTE Thian.
VOTE }|{opa

Go wild, Thian, sure you'll have something to say about my change in mind... Just for the record, I still suspect you, just at this point, opa more so.

[Vino91]

@Kiari:

Why did you feel the need to let us know about this mislynching so early on in this game?

The game was here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=15310 -- Read for yourself.

The IC in that game came off as an arrogant asshole too, and did his best to get me lynched because I disagreed with him. I wanted to save myself from that happening this game, too. Selfish, yeah. But if helps us win, then whatever.

Yes, Kiari, I have no doubt it happened... the point I'm trying to make is that I just can't help think you're trying so hard to draw our attention to the last game where you acted the same as now and got lynched incorrectly, possibly in a hope to save yourself from being lynched again now. This looks scummy.

Vote: Thian for trying to make others look scummy, and for being so annoying.

I do think that Thian has attempted to make you look scummy before (and maybe others), so thats a fair reason, but for "being so annoying"!? Please don't get silly!

[Vino91]

I do see only RICO is lurking and see how Thian havily distracting town. I do not see how his advices are necessary or relevant. So, why do you, Thian, SigmaEXE003 and Vino criticizing Kiari for her vote?

I haven't criticized Kiari for her actual vote, I only criticized the way she went about it. Thian is who I suspect 2nd to you and I still consider "Thian heavily distracting town" as a strong possibility which I'm not going to write off.

My vote on you, opa, is not for lurking as you are implying, but rather for giving such a weak attempt at taking your public suspicions off Thian, which I feel was in an attempt not to get counter-attacked by Thian.

Now that I think about it, is the following not contradictory, opa?:

First you say:

And, I revoke my FoS from Thian. He was creepy, and I've been angry. But on second thought I've realized that it rather town-read.

And then you say:

I do see only RICO is lurking

and see how Thian havily distracting town

.

On a separate note:

I just can't help think you're trying so hard to draw our attention to the last game where you acted the same as now and got lynched incorrectly, possibly in a hope to save yourself from being lynched again now. This looks scummy.

Nope. This looks town to me. She associating her play with her last game. This prolongation is more likely if she has the same role.

Personally, If I acted strangely in one game and got mislynched for it, and in the next game I was scum, I would be very tempted to act the same way and defend myself against any attacks by just pointing at my last game.

I would actually appreciate any and everyone's views on this point please. If it was you in Kiari's shoes, would you more likely be scum or town in the second game? Personally, I reckon I'd more likely be scum if I acted that way.

[Vino91]

On the separate note: Did you ever been mafia in forum-based game?

No, this is my first game of online mafia.

[Vino91]

I would be questioning anyones vote on me. Why are you avoiding I Am Innocent and not asking reasons as to why his vote is on you? Why, when my vote is on you, do you question me more than I am.

Don't worry, Thian, I haven't forgotten about your little buddy. As I said, my vote is on you because I had suspicions of you earlier than I had suspicions of I Am Innocent. I will vote for someone if I believe them to be scummy, and not just for a reason such as he voted for me,

therefore I will vote for him

.

Really do not like this quote at all:
1) You hint that your current vote is because of who you suspected earlier. Why are you not voting the person you suspect the most at that point in the game?
2) Regarding the underlined, why will you vote for me? Either I am the scummiest player, and should have your vote now, or you vote for who you think is the scummiest player. The fact you bring up a future vote without changing a current vote feels scummy as all get out.

1) At the time, I suspected you both, yet was struggling to decide on who I felt more strongly about.. so simply went with who gave me suspicious feelings first.

2) I am currently voting for who I believe to be the scummiest player. That being said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with saying who one is suspicious of, nor of having more than one suspicion. As, Thian said earlier, a paper trail, of sorts, of your views and suspicions is in the town's best interest as if you get lynched or killed, atleast your suspicions will be known and won't go down with you:

IC Hat Back On:
If you are town, it is best to be questioning people, staying active and forcing others to talk. You want to take the time to your advantage, because you never know who will end up gone by the morning and if you haven't posted enough of your suspicions, you won't leave clues behind for anyone to analyze or discuss the possibilities for ending up dead.
End IC hat.

Sorry I haven't posted guys, I've been at Disney World

Any new views on the game since then, McGriddle?

RICO ACT

has been prodded.

Sotty7, I personally believe its time for a replacement?

[Vino91]

Avoiding prod, watching. will post maybe sunday. glad to see so much conversation between players

What's your reasoning for only watching?

[Vino91]

Avoiding prod, watching. will post maybe sunday. glad to see so much conversation between players

Is this not considered "active lurking"? As you were complaining about Kiari doing in post #110?

[Vino91]

Vino: yes, it is. Is it helpful? no. It isn't.

Reason why? Opa and Kiari have called my posts annoying and distracting. I am avoiding a prod and seeing how far you guys get before you realize that the lack of posting will be the downfall of everyone. Trumpet of doom has fallen into the background. You guys may want to start questioning him. Good luck.

Come on Thian, you of all people know this is anti-town behavior! And all just to teach us a lesson!? I think its unnecessarily far.

And with regards to Trumpet of Doom, yes, I have noticed his prolonged absence.

letting the game "Breathe" so to speak. in the words of Opa. So vino, if yo uare going to jump on me for following Kiari and Opa's advice. Please consider that first prior to trying to make me look scummy for "active lurking". you will eventually learn by example of good posting and bad posting which opa and kiari have both done, and mcgriddle.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here? Please re-phrase?

[Vino91]

Apologies.. Had tons of varsity work once again this weekend. Attending a meeting for the next two hours and then will begin catching up. Sorry guys.

[Vino91]

Jora for all of his distracting, non-game-related posts and for the craptastic case he tried to give on me. All of his posts on page 8 feel like thinly-disguised OMGUS, except for the bits about McG.

What is generally accepted theory on OMGUS votes and posts? Excuse my ignorance please.

I have been prodded. Really busy weekend, sorry! Let me read back through the thread...

Apologies.. Had tons of varsity work once again this weekend. Attending a meeting for the next two hours and then will begin catching up. Sorry guys.

^Obv scum. Lurking and apologizing.

I can only assume the above post is a joke, Kiari? Surely no one is dumb enough to say that in the context it was said (ie. targeted at a post that was almost exactly the same as yours, made straight after yours) and be serious?

I will give you my all this evening, which is more than I can say I have done on a Day 1 in a long time.

I didn't enjoy this quote, McGriddle. It gives me the impression that you are going out of your way to make the rest of us feel important, or special, as we are suddenly lucky enough to be receiving your full attention, which not many others have received it on day 1's. In reality you aren't actually under too much pressure at the moment, with no votes on you (although, admittedly, there are a few people questioning your amount of input), so I feel it strange that you need to go out of your way like this when you normally don't?

@Everyone (well, mainly Trumpet and opa): Do you believe that RICO's posts are definitive indication of scum? (Just trying to figure out how seriously I need to take this.)

No.

Something that has worried me, however, is your recent vote on opa. I find myself torn between feeling you've taken the easy route with this vote as at the time the leading wagons were between myself and opa (ie. the easy votes), and, on the flip side, that you've actually read the game correctly (ie. "correctly" being defined in this case as having a similar feeling to myself, so not necessarily right) and come to that conclusion independently. I'm not saying I'm suspicious, but those were just the immediate gut feelings I got when I read that post and considered it.

Trumpet of Doom In his post #0 he maked emphasis only for one point:"never, ever, ever name your scumpartner". Later when he was asked he tells about his scum experience. Then he makes a comparison of his scum play to "these two games in which he was town". He voted for RICO ACT, and he was the first one who found him guilty. Now, my dear reader, think of ToD & RICO scumteam. Everything falls into place.

Imo RiCO did not confirmed at time, and this means he did not met his partner in a pre-game quick topic. ToD saw RICO being a burden to him, and he decided that he will eventually fall. So he maked a fake scum read on him as soon as he placed a post

.

This is possibly the most ridiculous post I've seen this game, Opa. You're basing your argument, firstly, on the assumption that RICO did not confirm in time (we cannot tell when his family went into hospital, before confirmation phase or after, so you are simply speculating on post times), and secondly, on the assumption that (in the case that RICO didn't actually confirm in time AND was scum AND Trumpet of Doom is scum) Trumpet of Doom would immediately start gunning for his own partner from the get go to rid himself of the "burden" which he somehow knew he had in RICO. This seems extremely far fetched to me. Personally, if I was scum, I would find the task of going it alone with 7 other players remaining extremely daunting and would do my best to keep my partner around. I think this theory is a push.

My reads so far.
The list of people I don't want to see being lynched today:
Kiari - gut read.

I think it's safe to say that I don't like the Jora wagon at first blush.

The above two quotes are mostly for the "paper trail". It appears to me that there is mutual buddying between opa and Kiari (not limited to the two posts above, they are just examples of it). However, I have doubts over whether a scum team would be this open about their support for one another at such an early stage in the game, especially not with opa under so much pressure at the moment.

[Vino91]

I have been prodded. Really busy weekend, sorry! Let me read back through the thread...

Apologies.. Had tons of varsity work once again this weekend. Attending a meeting for the next two hours and then will begin catching up. Sorry guys.

^Obv scum. Lurking and apologizing.

I can only assume the above post is a joke, Kiari? Surely no one is dumb enough to say that in the context it was said (ie. targeted at a post that was almost exactly the same as yours, made straight after yours) and be serious?

Ding ding! We have a winner, folks.

You're a fool, Kiari, truly! Absolutely pointless... If this isn't an unnecessary distraction to town I don't know what is!

[Vino91]

@Vino, yes I do understand that, but I am trying to be in compliance as much as possible whilst trying to find scum. This is one of my first games back since I stopped playing, and I want to try a little harder than before I stopped playing.

Ah ok, thanks.

@Vino, where does Trumpet of Doom fall on your list of scummiest players? 1st, 3rd, 8th? I don't need you to rank the other 7 players, I just want you on record for where you see Trumpet of Doom.

5th. To be honest, there's not much in it between 5th and 7th for me and I struggled to come to an exact placing, so he's definitely on the more town side of my spectrum.

@Thian #2 - Did you ever play with an IC that used the phrase "IC Hat" (or something similar)?

I struggle to see how this is relevant to the game, IAI? After all, it is his job to act as an IC and this is simply Thian's way of showing us when he's giving advice as an IC. I feel that, for some reason, you're attempting to draw our attention back to Kiari's rant on Thian's IC hat? If I'm wrong in feeling this please enlighten me as to what you are getting at.

(...) I judged that opa was far enough away from a lynch that I could vote him (my best pick from readover) without danger.

For fuck's sake, why did you posted without finishing analysis first? Thanks, I don't need "something" for sake of something from you. Sadly, it's typical town-replacement's mistake. Scum-replacement does it too, but they usually does not admit it so easy.
UNVOTE:

I'd rather not contaminate the potential data pool any more than I absolutely have to. (...)

Wrong answer. Die you piece of liar!
VOTE: Trumpet of Doom

The voting and actions of opa are confusing the hell out of me at the moment.. don't know what to make of them.

However, the following is definitely anti-town:

In your ISO#7, when you took RICO to L-1, were you expecting a hammer? Would you have condoned a hammer?

Not really, my vote was sort of "second" random. Just for teh lulz. Why not? RVS is stupid anyways. But if somehow RICO had been hammered I would not be upset.

What does this word stand for: "condoned"? I don't know it. My clues... Condoleezza Rice, Condom... Any hits?

Condoned = Agree with.

And finally:

although you do not need to have a vote on anyone, a vote helps in determining what is going on in your mind.

I don't believe you have a vote on anyone, Thian? I'm not saying its a contradiction, I just want to know "what's going on in your mind".

[Vino91]

The voting and actions of opa are confusing the hell out of me at the moment.. don't know what to make of them.

What a heck! You already had voted me, so does it mean like you considering to unvote? Or you said it just to make me look more scummy or something?

No, my vote remains on you because I still believe you to be the scummiest player. What I was trying to say is I can't figure out if these most recent actions of yours are making you "more scummy" or "less scummy" in my eyes. So, essentially, you remain the same to me until I figure out a bit more, ie. scummy.

[Vino91]

What is your understanding of "being scummy"?

My understanding of "being scummy" is when you're the mafia. However, I do not know for a fact that you are mafia, so my suspicions and vote are based on the fact that you often seem more intent on distracting the town with non-content based posts and views, rather than scum hunting. I was also very suspicious of the way you FOS'ed Thian and then very quickly withdrew it. Thian has arguably been the most confrontational player in this game and I got the feeling you were trying to protect yourself from the attack that you thought he would bring upon you if you continued to pressurize him, which indicates to me that you have something to hide.

And now Thian's raised the possibility of IAI-scum. I'll have to take a look at IAI's iso to see if I agree/

see

other scummy

things in it

. I owe this game a reread, and I'm not sure when that's going to happen, but I will try to stay on top of the present in this game.

Thian, please do not respond yet.

I want to first hear what ToD thinks was scummy about me in that post above. So scummy that he feels the need to reread to find "other scummy" things about me.

Thian brought up something that I took as "selective use of meta." I'd have to take a look to see if that was right, and while I'm looking, update my read on you overall. And off the top of my head, I can't say I recall you generally taking strong stands on people's alignment, except Vino's and mine. If I'm right in remembering that you haven't, that's a Bad Sign, especially since I think you were the one that had a post about not giving strong stands earlier.

Backpedaling for the umpteenth time....scummy.

Please explain how ToD was "backpedaling" here, IAI? I don't see it..

This actually surprised me a bit (

surely no one would ever want to lynch me...

); were you still seriously considering lynching my slot, or were you just pointing out that your views had changed?

I don't like the way you said that SO. Makes me think you expect us to automatically assume you are town for some reason? You may have done a good job at digging yourself out of RICO's hole (I'll give you that) but please don't think that makes you immune to questioning or suspicion.

[Vino91]

Trumpet of Doom: 2 ( }|{opa,

Trumpet of Doom

)

Surely this is a mistake, Sotty7?

[Vino91]

Thian are not the most confrontational player in this game for sure.

If not Thian, then who do you think has been most confrontational?

Oh, wait your silliness constantly repeating. All your post are very the same. That's scummy.

Are you accusing me of being scummy due to my posts being consistent?

Unvote: Thian
Vote: }|{opa

I trust the other votes so therefore I vote for }|{opa.

Oh God, jumping on a bandwagon as your first post? Seriously? You didn't even give any reasoning. You gave no thoughts on the game. You simply jumped on a bandwagon and left. Kiari was giving me scum vibes, and now with this from the same slot... The way I see it, when everyone in same slot does dumb things, that slot is probably scum. Either that or we coincidentally got two dumb town players. At least until you provide something to this game,

Unvote: }|{opa

Vote: Sanchocolates

Agreed, seems like they easy way out.

Fos: Sanchocolates

@Sanchocolates:
After you've had time to

actually

read the game, can you please tell me who you think the two scummiest players have been and why?

[Vino91]

I had a good solid read of this game before making this post and I have to admit I'm confused out of my mind right now trying to figure out what is going on. Say what you want about me being being indecisive, I am at the moment, but I'm also not looking for any excuses for the case of a mislynch as I will still have my vote on the person I believe to be scummiest.

Opa:
Opa has impressed me recently. Despite making some suspicious posts regarding what to do if you somehow stumbled across the name of a scum player and also calling sanchocolates' age into question unnecessarily, he seems to be to be playing in a much more focused and determined manner than in the first half of the game. Despite being under a ton of pressure, he has actually being doing a fair amount of varied scum hunting. While this could indeed be scum trying desperately to deflect attention elsewhere, I don't believe it is as he has not been tunneling on only one player, showing that he's not afraid of making enemies.

So

UNVOTE: OPA

. Yes, I know this is the second time already that I've taken my vote away from an L-1.. so once again apologies if you believe me to be hesitant but I'm not feeling this anymore.

McGriddle:
While going through each players posts, I was shocked by the absolute lack of interaction that McGriddle has had with this game. He has barely posted any useful analysis of any player and done minimal scum hunting. Each of his posts feels like an attempt to put in a post without really saying anything, as if in an attempt to avoid a prod. In his post #14 he shows his suspicions of me being scum, yet despite being questioned by others he is yet to give any evidence supporting this. In his post #16 he once again attempts to hide behind his poor D1 play by saying:

Wow, divert attention much because I'm lazy and horrible on Day 1 as I have admitted? Wow.

Yet, earlier in post #13 he had told me that he was making a special effort in this game because it was his first one back. I'm yet to see a special effort.

So

VOTE: McGriddle

For the record, this is not a "Lynch all lurkers" vote, but a vote due to his posting being suspicious.

Sanchocolates:
On a similar note.. Sanchocolates has pretty much said nothing of value since joining this game aswell.

Thian:
Thian seems to have quietened down alot since the beginning of this game, but the posts that he is making seem to be mored "relaxed" and calm in a way and I'm feeling a more town read for him.

IAI/ToD NOT scum team:
One thing I am certain of in this game, however, is that IAI and ToD are NOT the scum team. I'm not saying neither of them are scum, just that it's definitely not both of them. They've been hitting out too hard at each other, and it seems to be very genuine aggression. I can't see partners doing that against each other, even if was just for show.

ToD:
I've been looking at ToD and even though I was trying to see him in a negative light in order to try and get a feel for IAI's view point against him, I just can't see it. I don't feel he's been over defensive despite being attacked repeatedly, and I don't think he was doing any "backpedalling" with his three scum reads. I believe he gave up on getting the three scum reads from every one.. but I think that was more down to pretty much everyone else just refusing to oblige him than him trying to get himself out of the situation.

IAI:
After reading IAI's posts, I didn't have a good feeling. Every post he makes seems so calculated, so precise, it's just.. too calculated and too precise. Weird, to put it simply. I know this is no real case and I'm not going to push it as they just really feelings at the moment, but its what I believe.

Supreme Overlord:
Don't really know what to think about him at the moment, confused. But looking back on the way RICO ACTed, I don't think we can build a solid case on him based on what he said and what has happened.. ie. him getting replaced out due to his family issues.

Sigma:
Boring town I reckon, despite being a little quiet recently.

[Vino91]

@Vino, you say about me that "Every post he makes seems so calculated, so precise, it's just.. too calculated and too precise." Can I let you in on a little secret. Regarding my too townie to be true that you are seeing, I have played in 9 games prior to this as townie, and I have never been lynched. I have either been NK'd or made it to the endgame. And every time I have made it to the endgame as town, the good guys won. Maybe, just maybe, my "calculated" play is just solid townie play.

The kind of play that people notice and keep around, unless they are scum.

Your logic is extremely flawed, just because you've never been mislynched as town before doesn't mean that you can't be scum now. Your whole argument is based on the assumption that we KNOW you are town, which we don't, so you can't use this argument.

And if you think I'm going to be intimidated into keeping my mouth shut regarding my suspicions over you simply because you say anyone who calls you scummy is scummy, then you've got another thing coming.

Yeah, I said nothing about lynching you though, I was talking about myself. If you (as in anyone who thinks I am scum) think I am scum I'd rather be lynched Day 1 than to be stuck Day 3 with a lylo situation.

Yet another bladdy useless post from McGriddle in #286.

We are 4 days from the deadline. Ideally I would like the group to come up with a consensus for a lynch, and by group I mean at least 5 players.

Yes, without trying to rush, I do believe we need to start coming to some lynch decisions. As far as I'm concerned, I will be happy lynching any of the following, in order of who I would most like to lynch:
1) McGriddle
2) I Am Innocent
3) Sanchocolates

My vote is currently on McGriddle as I believe he is the scummiest player but should any wagons form on either of the other two and not on McGriddle then I will change my vote.

[Vino91]

Esp when I attacked you early in the game, your retaliation is OMGUSish.

No, YOUR retaliation is "OMGUSish"! I first raised my suspicions of you in post #44, after which you got very defensive and tried to retaliate by raising your first suspicions of me in post #45. And in the world I live in, post #44 came before post #45. You can say all you want that you had suspected me since before this game began or whatever you want to say, but fact is fact, my suspicions are in writing at #44, yours only at #45. So, no, my friend, you are the one whose actions are "OMGUSish", not mine. Nice try.

[Vino91]

Sigma, Vino - don't feel shy to switch yor votes. It's important part of a play. You become lucky to decide how this party will turn.
It's easier to save my ass if you will keep your votes still, but it luckier to lynch a scum if you will vote ToD.

Opa, I have made mention before that I would not be happy with a ToD lynch, and this has not changed. My vote on McG is due to my belief that he is the scummiest player, has been actively lurking and has openly evaded questioning from others. My vote remains with McG, or will change to IaI or Sanchocolates if their wagons become greater than McG's. I will not have any other lynch on my hands, and I can't see how my views will change this close to the deadline.

Opa, right now you are cheerleading jumping onto ToD.

I don't agree with this Thian, between McG and ToD, I think there was a greater chance of lynching McG if Opa had stayed there. So, for some strange reason (atleast to me) Opa has taken the more difficult route. I think its quite a town move actually, yes, stupid, in his situation, but town none the less.

Vino, Sigma - IMO we have a better chances of lynching scum if you will vote ToD instead of McG.

If you can't see why he is obv scum, just trust one of me or IAI, we can't be scums both.

This is tremendously flawed logic, Opa. Yes, while I do believe that you can't both be scum, there is the strong possibility that one of you are scum and the other simply a mislead town. Hence, if this was the case it would not be a good vote to blindly follow.

@Everyone:
Why are you all giving McGriddle the right to just ignore questions without voting for him? He has done it the whole game. I think it was Thian who voted for me when I had not answered some questions and, yet, now you ignore the same thing from McG because it is "expected" from him. Very convenient for him don't you think!?

I'd be happy to answer whatever questions you have.

This is a blatant lie as he has not been answering questions the whole game so why would he suddenly start now. I'm still waiting for him to "give us his all" as he promised he would. This is bullshit! Why are we all being soo complacent and allowing him to get away with it!?

[Vino91]

Sorry, it's mostly because I'm just not experienced enough to really understand what you guys are talking about (or just can't comprehend for that matter).

Don't worry, none of us are really that experienced, it is newbie after all. Just give us your opinions on which players you think have been playing suspiciously and why you feel that. Simple.

@ Sancho: voting good guys is bad too. Unvote me. Listen to good guys. Vote bad ones. Vote Trumpet of Doom. I Am Innocent approves it.

I promise you would not regret it.

Seriously, Opa!? Stuff like this is really not helping your cause. I believe you're town due to how hard you were attempting to scum hunt while being under a lot of pressure, and then you keep saying things like this. It seems as if you're begging people to believe you that you're town. Lesser faiths would have turned.

Did you notice that Vino got off and shortly thereafter ToD got on that wagon. Did you find that interesting at all?

The ultimate reach!

When ToD flips scum, if I am not around, do not forget this line at a crucial part of D1

:

Opa, I have made mention before that I would not be happy with a ToD lynch, and this has not changed. My vote on McG is due to my belief that he is the scummiest player, has been actively lurking and has openly evaded questioning from others. My vote remains with McG, or will change to IaI or Sanchocolates if their wagons become greater than McG's. I will not have any other lynch on my hands, and I can't see how my views will change this close to the deadline.

Ha ha, yes, on a lighter note I can agree with you here If/when ToD gets lynched and if he flips scum, I am soooooooooooooo screwed its ridiculous, don't think I'll even bother putting up a defence. I do realise how much I've defended him but I can only back what I believe I suppose.

@Vino, why have you still not presented a case on me. All I saw was that you thought I was too townie to be town, and yet that gets me the #2 or #3 spot on your suspect list?

As far as I can see, you haven't presented a case on me either, and yet I'm also up at #2 and #3 in your list. Contradiction much?

My earliest suspicion came when you asked me questions in such a way as to get me to give answers that I feel you wanted me to give. I think it was Thian who also said he felt you were "leading" him in the questions you were asking and trying to get us to give answers that suited you. This is not scum hunting but simply scummy on your part because A) if you are town, you would want honest answers out of us so you could try to understand us, and therefore wouldn't lead us, and B) if you are scum, you would want us to give answers that would protect you in the best way. This made me believe you are scum. Also alot of my feeling of you being scummy is "gut feel" due to your "precision" posts and always saying the right things at the right times, picking on the right people at the right times. Everything you say seems to be moderated in order to convey your image across to the town. Well I'm not fooled. And before you say anything about gut feel being the wrong way to go about things, read your post #358.

Also @Vino, are you voting McGriddle purely because he has not answered questions? Is this really the scummiest thing you have seen in this game so far?

No, I'm voting McG because he is so blatantly avoiding staying out of trouble in this game, partly by not answering questions, partly by just NOT playing. This is scummy active lurking and is the perfect way for him to keep his head down. If he is scum, you've got to admit its been a bladdy good strategy. Despite being blatant about his active lurking and useless play, there are only 2 of us suspecting him. That makes me angry.

[Vino91]

@ everyone: If you are scum, would you purposely offer yourself up for a lynch on day 1 and leave your partner stranded to last out 5 days, pretty much a month and a half to get yourself team a win? You got to be pretty damn savy and willing to put in the work by yourself. That is why I believe Mcgriddle is not scum at the moment. Is it a ploy, it could very well be. Sure. I can appreciate that, but the reality of it is, if I were scum, i'd want my partner around. I feel people are ignoring this.

While I agree with you that it would be more beneficial for scum to have their partner around, I get the feeling that McG is using this as a ploy to give himself a town read, which would then make it alot easier for him and is teammate to get deeper in the game without getting suspected.

I would probably be very entertained by seeing your face when I flip town. Just throwing that out there.

By saying this you're assuming I Am Innocent is town because if he was scum he would already know you were town (assuming you're not the scum team), and it would not surprise him. Are you confident enough in your reads to assume him town?

@ Thian. Why are you STILL NOT VOTING? If you so suspicious of me - vote me dammit. Just stop f* my brain. I really suspect you of trying to manipulate this lynch. It's only one day left and we need some time for claim and related discuss.

Agreed. Thian, we're not getting a I Am Innocent lynch today and the deadlines looming.

I think }|{opa will be the best lynch for today; unlike McGriddle, he's been participating with most of the players and will be valuable with a flip.

Don't like this at all, SO. Lets take an extreme case (I'm not saying Opa is confirmed town, just an extreme case) that we have somehow confirmed someone to be town. Even if this person has been interacting with everyone else, its still not beneficial to lynch this person. So only lynch him if you feel his actions are scummy, not just because he's been in lots of debates and arguments with everyone.

@Vino, re: The ultimate reach....what Thian was saying is that in these games, scum usually stay on opposite wagons for distancing purposes. If that is the case, it was of interest that you got off of Iopa to make it L-2 and ToD got right on to make it L-1. It goes with his theory, hence why I asked it. But your defensiveness is noted.

Everything I bladdy say is "defensive" in your eyes. I have no doubt you'll make this comment out to be defensive as well. On a separate note (assuming for a second you're town and I'm wrong in my opinion of you - I have no problem in saying I'm not perfect), how do you rate yourself as a scum hunter? Like what percentage would you say you are right? I'm asking this so I can laugh at how much of an idiot you are post game. Obviously if you're scum I won't make fun of you because then its just simply well played.

Jesus, I say I am bad at day 1, and that I don't like it for that reason and people just automatically assume that I give up on day 1, and that I don't want to do anything. That isn't true.

Please talk about something else for a change.. how about trying some scum hunting?

[Vino91]

This

By saying this you're assuming I Am Innocent is town because if he was scum he would already know you were town (assuming you're not the scum team), and it would not surprise him. Are you confident enough in your reads to assume him town?

This is brillant! Good play, Vino.
Also, this

Consider the low opinion

I have

of your scumhunting skills.

I know you're wrong about me, and I think it's not impossible for you to be/have been bussing SO or McG.

He actually speak with me like he thinks that I'm town. Opinion on my skills? I would never said nothing like this ^^^ to a guy who I'm thinking to be a scum and whom I voting for that reason.
SCUM COUGHT GUILTY SCUM VOTE FOR A SCUM

Ah, damn, I see what you've been trying to say Unfortunately (for myself), I now agree.

So..

UNVOTE: McGriddle. VOTE: Trumpet of Doom

Yes, everyone, I realize.. "Jumping on the band wagon", "Distancing myself after strong defense"... whatever...
I feel I've sealed my fate D2 unfortunately, probably even if he's town, but especially if he's scum.

Reason for vote: ToD talks as if he KNOW'S who's town and is currently attempting to lynch a player who he seems to think is town judging by the way he talks.

[Vino91]

Vino, would you consider lynching ToD? If not, why?

I think you may have missed my last post, Thian, #388.

[Vino91]

@Thian: I'm not an English student, but I do speak English first language, and I don't believe it was a slip.

Opa said: "Could you lend your town hand to put him at L-1?"
I understand this as Opa asking Sanchocolates to lend him [Opa] his [Sanchocolates'] hand that is townish. ie. The "town" is referring to the "hand".

A slip would have been: "Could you lend your town

a

hand to put him at L-1?"
This would then be a slip because the "town" is then no longer referring to the "hand" but to Sanchocolates town, which Opa would have excluded himself from.

Hence, I don't believe it was a slip.

[Vino91]

Damn! I did not expect these guys at all (Maybe SO, but not Sigma)! Just want to send a general apology to those I accused wrongly. This was my first game of mafia and I initially attempted to put down my full thought processes when thinking about the game, but then changed that method later in the game when I was accused of being indecisive about my views.. at the time I truly was undecided about what I felt but decided to let everyone into my mind. Maybe it did work in the way that scum felt I was town? None the less, still felt I learnt alot from this game, thanks alot guys!