Newbie 1080 -- Game over

[Does Bo Know]

/confirm

[Does Bo Know]

vote: Jack Forman

, because I hate how the last name is spelled.

[Does Bo Know]

Does Bo Know. I need you to answer the question.

Sorry. I've played one other newbie game here and played the game in many other places. Not too experienced, though. That's why I'm still playing here.

And to answer Plague's questions, I live in CST, and I post when I think there is a need to post. I don't have a problem lurking or anything, though.

[Does Bo Know]

Shift has a very valid point; while he did make the mistake of voting in the wrong stage, it was just a mistake. I don't count that as anything from either side of him, and besides that, the only thing I did notice from Shift was lurking, but he posted very recently.

Now, I'd like to hear Jack Forman's reason for voting Shift, for the same reasons as Quilford: it's too close to lynching already, and there was no reason given.

Until then, the vote's staying.

[Does Bo Know]

I do think Quilford was getting awfully offensive though...

I hate vague speculations. If there's one pet peeve I have in Mafia, it's a quick jab with no muscle toward a player.

Also, with this, the most offensive Quilford has been this game was toward [Moonstruck] before the unvote. After that, he's only been offensive toward brundibar for the quoted statement. This makes me wonder if brundibar is trying indirectly to back [Moonstruck] up, as Quilford...really hasn't been offensive in any type of way so far, but just questioned [Moonstruck] on theories.

[Does Bo Know]

I've observed some of brundibar's other posts after some suspicion on him with my last post. And, may I say that I don't like his argument, primarily because he's stating that

to him

Quilford's voting a lot of people and

to him

it looks like Quilford is taking pressure off himself. I believe that if brundibar actually has this much against Quilford and doesn't have anything against anyone else, that brundibar would've voted Quilford right now. However, he has not. If you have all of this to say about Quilford, brundibar, why are you avoiding him? I've got a

FoS

going your way, so the answer better please me.

Also, Jack Forman, the reason why suspicion was thrown on you was because while it might have been a random vote, Shift was L-2 and we're only on Page 3. Quick bandwagons are never good bandwagons. However, seeing as it was a random vote, and there is no one else voting Shift at the moment, I'll

Unvote: Jack Forman

.

[Does Bo Know]

EBWOP: I meant to say "

to him

Quilford's attacking a lot of people and

to him

it looks like Quilford is taking pressure off himself." Apologies.

[Does Bo Know]

I'm finding it hard to separate what's scummy from brundibar and what's newbie from brundibar. I'm going to let it go for now, and try to focus on other players for possibilities.

I don't like Jack's post. He explains his vote after we find him suspicious for not doing so earlier, he votes martini for lurking and asks if it's a scumtell (as Hikari basically stated earlier), and he attacks Plague's reason for voting brundibar (even though Plague's vote on brundibar was reasonable, just no broken down). I really don't see that as newbie as brundibar, like Plague suggests, but just mistakes that townies usually wouldn't make

For those reasons, I'm placing a

vote on Jack Forman

.

I'm gonna need to read these recent posts at least 3 more times to fully understand what's going on right now, though. I'll get to that later.

[Does Bo Know]

Jack's already on L-1?

Unvote

. I don't wanna risk a hammer.

Jack, give reasons why we shouldn't vote you. If your reasons don't please me, I'll simply put a vote back on you.

Ninja'd by Hikari! Argh...but still. Please give valid reasons why we should lynch you right now.

[Does Bo Know]

I also just realized it's Hiraki, not Hikari.

But yes, as Hiraki stated, it's bad logic. L-1 this early in a game is a terrible stance, since one person can instantly hammer Jack and he wouldn't have a chance to defend himself. And if Jack can't defend himself, my vote goes back on.

[Does Bo Know]

I believe that Hiraki means that if Newbie A makes more newbie posts than Newbie B, that doesn't mean that Newbie A is scum. By "bad", I'm under the assumption that means "newbie." Perhaps it would've been better to use different words, Plague/Hiraki?

[Does Bo Know]

As unnecessary as the unvote might've been, Plague, you realize that Jack could've been lynched right now, right? Just checking.

I'm still pretty unconvinced in Jack's posts. He's under the assumption that we're voting him for the fluff posted as well, when we weren't pointing it out as scummy, just...fluff, I believe. He still believes we are in RVS stage, but the same player is at L-1 and almost none of them have been real pressure votes (Hiraki's sounded like a pressure vote, but it wasn't a meaningless vote besides that). This makes me believe Jack still wants others to be voted, which would take pressure off himself, just like brundibar's been doing recently.

Interesting

. And he was wondering if any of us noticed the lurking, yet...why didn't he just say martini was lurking as a reason to vote and

move on

?

It's a good thing you have a reason to leave, Jack (poor cat...), but when you come back, claim your role and the reasons we shouldn't vote you. If your defense is flimsy or you refuse to answer, I will vote you. Well, actually, no. I'd also like to hear from Moonstruck about Jack's bandwagon.

My top three scummy people right now are Jack, brundibar, and it's quite tough to pick a third person. I'd also like to say martini, not because he's done a lot of scummy things (he just forgives people a little too easily), but because everyone else here hasn't given anything I can find scummy.

On another note, while I have originally believed brundibar's posts were partially newbie and partially scummy, I think they are more scummy, primarily because he keeps pointing things out that might be suspicious and tries not to get himself punished for it. Hasn't stopped in a while.

Good thing I got here before too many posts came in, because I was late on my way home today.

[Does Bo Know]

Y'know. Usually I'd object to a lynch on Page 6, but this really doesn't look bad. Jack is missing the point why I want him dead.

I'd actually like to know this reason as well.

Jack, I'm moved by the argument, yet not convinced to take a vote off of you. There is a difference between not posting and lurking. Inactivity is not being able to post, and therefore doesn't post. If someone, however, popped in every day or so and posted nothing essential to discussion at all, that's lurking.

Using other web pages to show that you had a different idea of lurking

was never necessary

. I feel like you dragged these out after we constantly went against your idea of lurking. This is a Newbie game. Asking what lurking is here would have given you much better results than looking up generic items from an online dictionary. Don't vote for someone for a reason you don't even know makes sense yet.

My vote is about to be made. I'm glad to hear from Moonstruck, as they haven't posted in a while. Though, Hiraki, why would you want Jack dead besides the point he brings up? I'm just curious before I set the vote.

[Does Bo Know]

A little thing called "time" is required for my full analysis on people. I doubt I can claim enough time to get a full analysis on people before the day ends, but I'll do the best I can.

Quick Analysis: All I feel is that Jack is pretty scummy to me (for reasons aforementioned), brundibar keeps posting ideas that don't seem asserted enough by him in order to make it feel like an accusation (yeah, I'm not sure how terrible that grammar is), martini hasn't presented any new evidence (I'm sorry I didn't state this before, Quilford, but that's a main reason why I didn't think martini was town), Hiraki seems to be quite mysterious with reasoning (for example, the still unanswered reason for voting Jack), and the others (Quilford, theplague, Shift, and Moonstruck) have all seemed to present townie arguments throughout the game. Of course, I can't specify right now, as I'm in a time crunch as I'm typing this.

Considering the circumstances, I'm going to place my vote back on

Jack Forman

, as the only reason I withdrew the vote was to listen to Hiraki's reasoning, but now that the hammer can't happen, I'll just wait until Hiraki answers the question presented on his doormat.

[Does Bo Know]

Apologies, Nobody Special. I'm used to playing it without putting Vote in the beginning, but I'll redo it.

Vote: Jack Forman

[Does Bo Know]

@Jack Forman: Hm, you're right. It seems I have made the same mistake of what lurking truly was. Hehehe, so yes, I used lurking wrong as well. But what else was there to notice from Shift?

However, the other point I was making about theplague's vote on brundibar that you quoted meant that theplague gave a brief explanation why the vote was placed, and you put absolutely nothing after your vote on Shift. Theplague later stated specific reasons to vote brundibar.

I'm liking your defense more and more, Jack Forman. Though, your points for reasons Shift is scum are terrible. Shift easily means that in response to your belief we're still in RVS (Jack, do you think we're still in RVS, anyway?), his vote was absolutely nothing RVS, and he had valid reasons against brundibar to prove we weren't in RVS. People are stupid, but I don't think Shift would've missed something like a question not directed at him.

Sorry, gotta go to school. Also looking forward to Hiraki and Plague's posts, and I won't be able to do full analysis for a while, actually. Apologies.

[Does Bo Know]

Alright, this was made right after night 1 started, so bare with me.

Hiraki, I understand that you've seen more newbies than most likely any of us, and know behaviors. But don't assume anyone will follow your word without presenting any proof of brundibar's newbie town attitude.

Though...there is something that confuses me. You know how to play the game, Hiraki. The way you are asserting your point to everyone about brundi's playing style is too obvious and direct. Only an incredibly newbie player would do something like this. But, that's so obvious that you're scum, right?

...Wrong. I hate comparing people by skill, but you're an IC. You know not to make mistakes like that as Mafia. Therefore, I believe your reasoning for brundi and his alignment is a complete

null tell

.

Too much pride with the bolded words? Probably.

To the quick analysis:

I’ll be basing a lot of people’s analysis on Jack’s alignment, since I couldn’t finish this before the Day ended.

Plague, because of your post stating what we should do based on Jack's flip, we should believe that Hiraki is trying to prove innocence by backing Jack up while brundibar is town and Hiraki is trying to prove that. Hiraki was one of the first people to vote on the real Jack bandwagon. I don’t find that scummy, and in fact find that townie. You know, Plague, weren’t

you

the one that defended Jack because of your thoughts toward his “newbie attitude?” Though, I should take that back since he was a top suspect on your list, but that was after everybody else had grub against Jack.

On what I think overall, Plague, new arguments have rarely been presented. Improvements, yes. Creations, not really. Not really sure how I feel about this one. Neutral/leaning scum simply because no one else I have is scum except Brundi.

Also, Hiraki, your reasons for voting Jack are clearly expressed and clearly noted. Nothing wrong there, except I'm still confused as to why you've waited until

now

to display your full reasoning for Jack's vote. Otherwise, you’re neutral, but Jack’s vote places you a slight town read.

martini, while it is possible that you ran out of time to analyze everybody, just saying Jack is scummy in twilight when he’s about to be lynched is a soft input before the lynch is made, perhaps trying to hide that you’re not partners with him. Also, you’ve been too forgiving with everybody earlier, but you’ve fixed that just a tad. You’d be barely leaning scum to me, but considering Jack voted you for “lurking” earlier and no one else voted you, you’re neutral.

Brundi hammered with the simple statement that Hiraki convinced him. Piggybacking. I don’t like that.

At all.

Bad for brundi. You have been fence-sitting (Shift coined the term and I’m just using it, if that’s alright), and this hammering vote shows further that you rely on other people to help you, and when you “try to help” others, it’s to make sure you’re not suspicious for something wrong. This has how you’ve played the whole game, and while I do feel bad for saying this due to your apology-post earlier in the game, you’re the scummiest I’ve got right now.

Moonstruck, you’re townie to me. Slightly newbie, I might add, and your arguments toward people are small, but the quality in the small arguments is the quality I’d expect in small arguments. Probable town to me.

Shift, you are most town on my scale. You have presented an aggressive play style that is made to uncover the scumminess that is the Mafia. Though, the only difference between you and Quilford is, like a few others have stated, you haven’t presented as much new material as Quilford. The material you have produced, however, is being used correctly.

Scale from most scummy to townie:

brundibar
Plague
martini
Hiraki
Moonstruck
Shift

Also, we can now conclude that Mafia killed Quilford because they thought he was too townie to be convinced Mafia. I'll look over yesterday to see how attitudes toward Quilford have been.

[Does Bo Know]

Hm, I looked over Jack's reason for thinking Quilford is town. And is it just me, or is there absolutely nothing in that post that gives reasoning toward Quilford's town status? It's full of crap, unless someone can point out why it makes sense.

To add on to this, brundibar stated that his reason for Quilford's town read is that Quilford was an aggressive scumhunter, after

saying that he now knows what to look for

. Didn't Quilford point all of us toward Brundi's post that he's read games before? How could brundi "not know what to look for" if he's read games where people (hopefully) knew what to do? This pushes my suspicion for brundi even further. This enforced suspicion is, admittedly, driven by Quilford's play, but I'll place my

vote on brundibar

.

Furthermore, I had the same beliefs toward Quilford yesterday, that he was the most aggressive townies from the very beginning, and always provided new evidence. His reason that I was most townie to him, however, threw me off a little, as the examples he gave seemed to protect him a little more; those were the "new connections" I made.

[Does Bo Know]

First, let me say that I'll barely be posting for a few days, as this week is full of things I need to do.

Alright, let's answer questions:

@Hiraki: Sorry, reading over what I said in my large post, I ignored the fact that you attacked Jack in the final bandwagon when figuring what you were on my scale. You're more townie than Moonstruck on my scale with that accounted for. Though, reading Jack's few posts, he wasn't "on brundi," as theplague stated earlier. He listed him as slightly scummy on his analysis list of players, and a few reasons. He wasn't attacking, really.

@brundibar: People make arguments to influence other people's

arguments

, for the most part. Partially, it influences others directly if they're indecisive, but not totally. Oh, and to clarify that other statement, here is the example I'm referring to. Your reasoning for Quilford's townie...isn't much. Neither was Jack's really. That and the arguments many others have thrown about that I agree with are the reasons I'm voting you.

And I didn't like Plague's vote toward Hiraki for being IC and not dead Night 1 under the circumstances. Though, that's hypocritical, seeing how I'm using his IC status to prove my point toward his outright defense of brundi.

Alright, I'm done, gotta go.

[Does Bo Know]

Hm, seems things have taken a sharp turn. Just read everything, and I'd like to hear martini's claim and I'd also need time to read some more on martini's posts before I'd vote. I've stated why I think martini is slightly scummy in my large post, but I'd rather play it safe and not vote martini until I've analyzed him fully. Sorry, just needed to get that in there.

[Does Bo Know]

EBWOP: That's supposed to be lurking, not budding.

Actually, because you made that mistake, it saved me the trouble of finding that Jack was the only one that seriously voted martini yesterday, and I just realized it instead. Thanks. I think the fact that only Jack voted martini makes martini less likely to be Mafia, much like how Hiraki's vote against Jack being first makes him more likely to be Townie.

Vote stays on brundi.

[Does Bo Know]

If you mean that I'm a newb player, Moonstruck, I'm not clueless about the game. I know many aspects of it, and have modded a couple of games on a couple of sites, each with intense power roles. And the games weren't unbalanced.

Haha, sorry for posting something that contributes absolutely nothing. Got a ceremony to go to tonight. I'll be back and post something productive before studying for a test tomorrow.

[Does Bo Know]

The reason my arguments haven't been as detailed is because many of them are just agreeing to other detailed arguments. But I see why that would make sense; I'm terrible at forming conclusions before others, so I'm enough of a newb to let that slide for now.

Though, I don't like Brundi's post. The parts of the post that have content don't appeal to me. I don't think Plague has been totally aggressive toward Brundi throughout the entire game, and the other aspects have already been argued by everyone else, and there's no reason in repeating.

[Does Bo Know]

The only thing I've said is that you didn't like the switch. I wasn't trying to imply that you and brundi were partners (which is obviously not possible). I'm not really sure why I said that anyways; maybe I was wondering if you still thought brundibar was town. I'm starting to agree with Shift as I'm reading over brundi's posts.

The hammer was the worst, although it could still just be newbie.

Im pulling off of the chain lynch idea. I'm not sure enough about martini to do that. I'll go either way still, but I don't want a set quicklynch for tomorrow.

The bolded part confuses me. Are you saying that it's the worst to interpret, the worst as in the scummiest, or the worst as evidence? I'm not sure after you made this post.

Sorry I've been reading and not posting. All I had time to do. Though, I want to point out this post, Plague:

@Shift
Why are you going back on the original plan?

Hiraki doesn't seem to like the switch.

I don't find this scummy since you've already stated your case that "Brundiscum" is more probable, plus Shift changed the vote to Brundi and this post was a response; You and everyone else also knows that Hiraki and Brundi can't both be Mafia. The thing tugging me is this: the bolded statement never had to exist to make your point clear in that post; the fact it

is

there just makes me feel uneasy.

And there's nothing else to say; oh, there is, and it's (again) toward Plague: I don't like your excuse in this post. You should know which one I'm talking about: the first sentence. I'm surprised Hiraki didn't respond to this at all...though, why should I be? I guess I was expecting some aggression regarding this excuse for not being aggressive toward Brundi D1, but that expectation hadn't been fulfilled.

[Does Bo Know]

If I was scum, why would I lynch the one person who could help me? Jack was defending me almost more than anyone, and me putting myself as the lone scum would have been a ridiculously bad idea, especially when I could have easily waited for somebody else to hammer.

This doesn't mean anything. Big WIFOM. I was accused of lynching my own scum partner because it was "sudden" and I wanted him to "shut up," even though I was never scum in the first place. Lynching someone without your own reasoning that

happens

to be scum doesn't put you in the clear, Brundi. Fact.

Even if the Cop didn't die last night, Hiraki shouldn't have crossed anyone's mind as a cop because of his actions D1. He totally defended you D1

after

accusing you of being scum. This means he would've never gotten the chance to investigate, whether it be the night before D1 or in the middle of D1, silly.

I'm also curious as to why Shift changed his vote after a post form Martini that really seems to have no content in it...

You still have to make those statements that sound like a mind should be changed but it wouldn't be directly your fault. Moonstruck restated why Shift changed the vote, and that would've been my first argument, but the fact you think that Martini's posts don't have content and you

still

aren't voting for this "suspicion" leads me to believe that you aren't really looking for anything scummy in Martini/Shift; you're just throwing trash around that another person hopes to find as treasure.

I'm sure on this vote now.

[Does Bo Know]

EBWOP:

If brundi's next post isn't any good, I'll put him at L-1. I specifically want to know who his top suspect is and why, as well as explain the hammer.

Too bad he never answered your question on who was the scummiest to him. See, it's sad that Brundi can't read something 2 posts above him and answer its questions accordingly.

So, Brundi, I'll ask along with Plague, who is your top suspect?

Sorry I didn't include that in the last post. I just found it after my previous post.

[Does Bo Know]

EBWOP: Just saw that DBK already answered the first part. I missed it cause he hadn't quoted the actual statement by brundi.

Sorry. I don't like to quote many things at once to make a post essentially long. Plus, linking posts takes time, and I didn't have time.

Though, Plague brings up a good point, except I also want to know why Hiraki thought Martini was scum in the first place, despite Jack's serious vote on Martini. Actually, no. I just read a few of Hiraki's recent posts, and I think it was because of a frame by killing Quil? Could someone elaborate on what he's talking about before I ask for other reasons he believes Martini is scum?

[Does Bo Know]

-waits for Brundi to flip scum-

Ummm nobody's hammered yet and there's still 15 days until deadline.......

I've got an idea! If plague hammers then we can get this over with. I'm not as convinced as Shift that it's Brundi, but I'm convinced that it's either Brundi or Martini. And if we lynch Brundi now we will either win on day two or lynch Martini and win on day three. It's a win win situation

I've got a better idea. Let's wait for Hiraki to respond to questions before doing anything else.

[Does Bo Know]

^^^^I like this post. I don't see it as an excuse not to be chainlynched tomorrow or anything, but as a valid argument toward Moonstruck's "hurrying attitude." I have more confidence that Martini is town due to Martini's D2 play and the fact Jack seriously voted Martini and it was the only vote against Martini D1.

@Moonstruck:

And I wasn't really going for a quick lynch with no evidence, I was going against sitting around doing absolutely nothing, when Plague has made it clear he was going to vote Brundi, but is waiting for more explanations from Hiraki.

This implies that you don't want Hiraki's explanations, because you discussed hammering, yet you already say that Plague was going to hammer

anyway.

The difference in hammers is that yours is to get the game moving, while Plague's possible hammer (I don't think he confirmed it yet) is actually based on the content of the game. This makes me crave Hiraki's next post even more, since it's at request and you'd rather get the game moving.

To respond to my silence on chianlynching, I'm against it primarily because I don't see Martini as the second possible scum, or even scummy, for that matter. However, if we had as much or almost as much valid evidence against Martini (or any other player for that matter) as we do Brundi, then I wouldn't object to chainlynching. Just don't see a clear second candidate right now.

[Does Bo Know]

I'll do that, Plague:

1. brundibar: for being unable to make a good enough case to show any town read whatsoever.
2. Moonstruck: has been contributing bits and pieces D1, mostly unoriginal, and not enough for anyone to get a strong read, but D2 consists of rushing the game from her rather than listening to everything possible before the day is over.
3. I really,

really

,

really

can't think of any single person to go here. The only person I'd put here is Hiraki because he truly believes Brundi is townie and I don't. Tough cookie, here.

Though, thank you for the response, Hiraki.

Ninja'd: Moonstruck's last post is terrible. He's not calling you scum because you want Brundi lynched, since Shift and I also want Brundi lynched, yet

we're not even in his top 3 suspects.

He's calling you scum because

your reasoning is bad.

Anyone that thinks otherwise isn't a very wise player here.

As I type this post after being ninja'd, it becomes clear to me that Moonstruck didn't want Hiraki to post and "hurry the game along" because Hiraki might've called her scum. Well, he did. And Moon is retaliating. Big time. I'm moving Moonstruck to be tied with Brundibar, and I have no other true suspects. It's safe to say I'll gladly vote for whichever one has more votes.

In light of these last few posts, the person I want to hear from most is Shift, since he believed earlier that Moonstruck was townie for a post or something.

[Does Bo Know]

I've been worried about Shift. Wouldn't mind him being tied with three. I'm ready to get rid of

Martini

, actually.

Wait...you just said Moonstruck was on the top of your list...what's going on?

[Does Bo Know]

Oh, okay. So, I'm not sure if you said this already, but why did you suspect Martini at first D2?

[Does Bo Know]

Preview Edit:
@DBK: You didn't post about lynching Brundi sooner,

I actually hate the Moonstruck post. Again, I don't care which dies, I'm convinced that it's Moonstruck/Martini at this point. Brundi is newbie town. If he flips scum, I will cry myself to sleep some day.

Hmm, it seems the last thing quilford talked about was his suspicions about brundibar. maybe hiraki thought brundibar nked quilford to stop him from outing those suspicions? but then thought it maybe was a frame. hiraki?

Exactly. This looks perfect for scum. I like Moonstruck-scum more than Martini-scum for right now.

Unvote, Vote: Moonstruck

I see absolutely no reasoning in the vote besides the fact that Hiraki hated my post, which recommended lynching Brundi sooner.

I responded to the post where you argued:

So being eager to lynch a player whom I think to be scum makes me scum? Totally makes sense...

Hiraki, did you only vote me/hate my post because the post recommends lynching Brundi

, or was there other reasoning?

Unless you needed to be told "I am eager to lynch Brundibar for D2", there is no reason to argue that fact. If I wasn't eager to lynch Brundi, wouldn't I...um...oh, I don't know...take the vote off of the L-1 player by now? I'm eager to have Brundibar lynched because I think he's scummiest. I don't want to hurry the lynch like you quickly recommend because Brundibar can still be lynched whether we wait or we don't wait for other players to speak. Plus, other players weren't going to vote Brundi anytime soon, so there wasn't and still isn't a reason to take my vote off.

Also, the bolded statement doesn't clarify anything about wanting to hurry up the lynch. It just asks if he hated your post for recommending a Brundi lynch, which is a fact that there are other people that have recommended a Brundi lynch that Hiraki doesn't outright hate, unlike

you.

If you would've said "wanting to hurriedly lynch a player" (or something similar to that) instead of "being eager to lynch a player", I would've never made the argument in the first place. Whether you think so or not, these make a difference.

^^Wow, probably the most self-defensive thing I've said all game. Oops.

Finally, Moonstruck, why do you think Martini is scum?

[Does Bo Know]

I agree completely with Plague that Brundi has made a good post, though I'd like to know why Brundibar thinks Martini is scum #2. I was 50/50, but Brundi's one post was a deciding factor in whether I do this:

Unvote

,

Vote: Moonstruck

L-1 for you now, Moon. Claim, please.

[Does Bo Know]

Well, Shift needs to be prodded or something, methinks.

Moonstruck hasn't helped her own case recently. Moonstruck, I don't know why you're freaking out about Hiraki's confident attitude. You should know that Hiraki will push his point to no end.

The only thing I've found town by Moonstruck recently is admitting to following other people's arguments. Though, that was taken away when she said that she was confident Brundi was scum, in fact seeming more confident than those who actually presented cases on him.

[Does Bo Know]

Next three paragraphs are responses to your last post, Moonstruck:

- The point of playing newbie games is to learn; however, lenience doesn't help you learn. If I were to ask if you learned something valuable this game, you should say yes by now, regardless of lenience. I learned this in the same exact manner, actually. Tried pulling the newbie card in my defense (I wouldn't have pulled it if I wasn't cop, though), and I was instantly bashed back that lenience doesn't help me learn. Now I know. And you should too.

- I'm sorry, you can also say "annoyed" instead of "freaking out about." But that doesn't mean I think any differently of it. Plus, I don't remember if you posted about Hiraki's playstyle prior to his rant against you...well, I don't remember much about you from D1 anyway, so I'll need time to read your ISOs.

- Finally,

congrats

. You pointed out the one exception I expected you to point out: Shift. Nice work. Unfortunately, it doesn't help you. Everybody here (except Hiraki and Brundi, obviously) believe that Brundi is scummy. We have all made arguments to show that fact. However, if all the people that made arguments about Brundi's almost-definite scumminess were to vote for Brundi, he'd be lynched by now. I'm saying that you admitted to following other people's logic and sincerely believe that Brundiscum should be lynched;

but,

the people that have made the arguments you wholeheartedly agree with aren't voting Brundi, with the exception of Shift, who hasn't posted at all since you've made your fatal mistakes.

I need some time to read both Moonstruck's and Jack Forman's ISOs for Moonscum. Not right now. Later, for sure.

[Does Bo Know]

I'm trying to understand why Martini is so high on everybody's scum list.

[Does Bo Know]

I'm trying to understand why Martini is so high on everybody's scum list.

Probably because the rest are more townie, not that martini's scummy. That's my reason at least.

Admittedly, yes, this is true. I'd really like to say that the ranking from scum to town for me is simply:

Moonstruck
Brundi
Hiraki/Plague/Martini/Shift

Just saying, if Moonstruck and Brundi aren't scum, this will be one hell of a game D4.

[Does Bo Know]

Could we at least wait till DBK posts about mine and Jack Forman's ISOs, I'm curious as to what he has to say and I'd like to be able to respond(can't if I'm dead). Feel free to hammer after that. Hiraki, I'd like to know what you're feeling tomorrow when I flip Vanilla Townie.

I'll get to that later today. Though, you do seem to have confidence that I won't find anything in these ISOs. I should feel you're less scummy for that, but that can wait until I actually check the ISOs.

[Does Bo Know]

Ok, I'll start reading the ISOs, but don't expect a post directly afterward. At this moment, I have a lot of things I want to get done, but this is one of them.

[Does Bo Know]

Err...just read through a few of the ISOs, and just to be safe, let me

Unvote: Moonstruck

.

[Does Bo Know]

Okay, just read through the rest of Moon's ISO posts. Let me summarize what's going on for you folks:

- In the beginning of the game, Moon argues her position for the Shift vote, doubts herself, and still keeps the vote on Shift after doubting herself over a silly reason. This confuses me.
- She unvotes Shift finally, and instantly attacks Jack. Yes. Moon's next suspect was Jack after Shift's mishap. I don't think Moon and Jack could've planned this move pre-game, that move being an attempt to get somebody lynched (Jack and Moon both voted Shift at the time, anyway), and if that failed, they'd turn on each other. Jack's only on his second game, and Moon hasn't played online before, I believe.
- She actually finds more arguments against Jack (not really finding, more like agreeing and applying). Jack is lynched after brundibar hammers...err...and Jack didn't provide a good defense.

At this point in the reading, I made the Unvote on Moonstruck. I'll go do an errand, come back, and give you D2 of Moonstruck. Though, before then, I would like those who have voted Moon to read the ISOs before hammering or anything, please.

[Does Bo Know]

From this, it looks like Moon is able to buss effectively.

Also, how can Moon attack but then find arguments? Didn't she already--

Fuck. Fine. I'll read them.

Sorry, that was a summary. What I have written down is:

"She takes the vote off Shift, looks at Jack as scummy, and does actually counter with his lurking argument. I think at this point in the ISO read, I feel like I should unvote Moon to relieve pressure. Let me read the rest."

I honestly didn't look at anyone else's posts, so I didn't know if Moon was taking other arguments against Jack and rewording, but I also stated that she found

more

arguments, whether they be her own or anyone else's. It just shocks me that as soon as the vote's off of Shift, she keeps Jack as a prime suspect. That doesn't seem incredibly scummy. But that's not where I'm done.

---

Now, back to D2's Moon ISO post summary (well, mine, anyway)

- As soon as Day 2 begins, Moonstruck instantly points a vote on Brundibar for the first post. I've read Moon's ISOs enough to know that every single one of Moon's arguments against Brundi was already said, so I think she was essentially using others' ideas for her vote. I didn't put this in the previous summary as, like I said, her arguments were repeating others.
- She then unvotes Brundi instantly because it's too close to the lynch. Not a huge problem, I don't think.
- Something I don't like anymore is people answering questions for other people. That's what Moon does when Plague asks Brundi why the scum should be newbie, Moon answers possibilities, Brundi agrees with Moon, and Moon complains that she shouldn't have given scum anything to defend themselves. Umm...what? Moon was partially defending Brundi anyway, so what's wrong with Brundi agreeing? Nothing.

I don't like this confidence switch.

- Then, of course, the rest is history, because the rest contains all the reasons to vote Moon for scum today.

Now, I'm not too confident in Moon's lynching anymore. Of course, I'd advise everyone to read the ISOs and find specific reasons for lynching/not lynching Moon, but one thing pisses me off. Moon, you wanted me to read your ISOs and ask you questions. I have no logical questions right now. You wanted to wait for that, as you were curious about what I had to say. I think you're perhaps the most confusing player this game.

I think the main reason we can be confused about who the other scum is is because not enough new information had been tossed around D1. A lot of it was just agreeing with one another, and some was even just following everyone else's statements and voting on that. It's hard to find something scummy when it's repeated in different wording more times than one.

Unless more

new

logic can be put forth from D1, it's tough to think about playstyles from D1, as it truly consists of many following others instead of composing new arguments. I haven't done anything else except think about this Mafia since the last post. Well, and eat. But I don't have time to read the entire topic for possibilities ATM. Though, there's an awkward proposal I might discuss later. Not now though, unfortunately.

[Does Bo Know]

I think we should lynch Brundibar over Moonstruck. First, he's scummy, so it would get rid of a scummy suspect regardless. Second, we win game if he's scum. Third, if he's town, not only does it question Hiraki's knowing of Brundi's town status earlier, but it would put quite a rip in Shift's confidence toward Brundiscum. This also includes the fact Shift had a vote on Brundi instead of Jack when Jack was lynched. And fourth, if he is town, we still have at least 2 days to search.

The only thing holding me back is that only Shift is brought in as a new possible suspect later. The fact that we have 2 scummy people and 3 days to find them isn't exactly something good. I feel we need at least as many suspects as days to lynch the last mafia at this point.

Pulling a "Brundi play" here, but it's just an idea, and I won't vote for Brundi yet,

but

I want to see what Shift ends up saying Thursday, as this Brundi lynch has a side effect of bringing him out. Of course, he shouldn't question it since his confidence for Brundiscum is incredibly high. But we shall see.

[Does Bo Know]

hehehe, seem my possible plan isn't exactly welcomed by many.

I wouldn't have even thought about this if I wasn't unsure about Moon's D1 posts. If D1 pointed more toward Moonscum, this idea wouldn't have even passed through my head.

But it did.

---

Hi, Plague! My fourth reason isn't ridiculous, as it provides the fact that if Brundi is town, we're not doomed to lose as town. Yes, of course, my second reason is invalid. Just thought it would get a point across. The first one is actually invalid as well; again, to get a point across. The third one probably just isn't worded right. What I meant was that Shift has been incredibly confident in Brundi's being town throughout the majority of the game. However, if Brundi is town like Hiraki entirely believes, why was Shift's confidence so large that he kept the vote on Brundi as "#1 scum suspect" even though Jack was the wagon, and Jack was scum? Something about that makes me uncomfortable.

In response to this, Plague:

So you'd rather have no extra days to lynch scum instead of having a safety-blanket day?

I want to make sure we have at least as many suspects as days left because of this:

Just saying, if Moonstruck and Brundi aren't scum, this will be one hell of a game D4.

Well, as far as the "Brundi play" I made, it was solely the fact that I wasn't lynching someone for reasons I already mentioned. But I had a reason to not vote Brundi, hence the bolded

but

later in the statement.

And I have the same opinion about Hiraki's town status, along with the fact that he was on the start of the wagon that lynched Jack. I think Hiraki's the most-confirmed town at this point.

---

Martini, what I meant by questioning Hiraki's knowing of Brundi's town status earlier, I was just saying that Hiraki was pretty confident in Brunditown. If Brundi turned out town, who knows whether he just knew or it would get him brownie points if he were scum. Well, now that I read it again and how it's used, I don't like it either, considering I think Hiraki's town anyway. -1 for DBK.

And Martini, the rest of your post reminded me to read Jack's ISO, but apparently you already did that. Did you find anything else about Jack's ISO that points to Moonstruck besides the part you mentioned?

[Does Bo Know]

Hm, I see that once I throw an idea out there, the vote switches onto me. Lovely.

Admitting that two of your reasons were made up to "make a point," claiming that your wording was wrong/we misunderstood, trying to find scumreads on people to have an equal number of people as days left.... Anyone else seeing some really bad stuff going down here? Claiming that he was misunderstood is generally a big scumtell. Not to mention that he wants to set up a series of chainlynches that will lose if they're all town lynches! I'm ok with back-to-back lynches in some situations, but never three or more, especially when those are the only three we will get. Right now I wanna lynch DBK, with brundibar or Moonstruck as alternates.

All of that is valid. Except when people "misunderstood" or "I worded things wrong," I didn't change them to try to make them sound townie or anything. If I did, point them out.

Well, all of Hiraki's points are valid too. Ouch. It seems that entire idea is the reason why I'm the next target. Now I know what

not

to do next game.

You know, at this point, I'm literally speechless. My defenses for this idea won't work since it was an idea that was scrapped into every little shred and countered with reasons why it's scummy, and I find those counters legit. I've literally spent half an hour (or maybe even an hour) just sitting here wondering what to say. And there's no excuse for that...I'm just stuck.

Ninja'd due to nothingness of my part: It was a typo, Brundi (not truly believable now, since it points away from my scumminess). Thanks for pointing that out. And ironically as soon as I'm about to say how stuck I am, brundi says that I'm a

strong enough player

that I shouldn't be quicklynched with one post.

[Does Bo Know]

Actually, DBK should be supporting this lynch. After all, now we have three suspects.

I was actually going to throw that remark in there as sarcasm.

[Does Bo Know]

@martini
Claiming your idea is crazy and admitting that you're scummy is often a weak attempt to seem town. If it comes under fire, then he can just say "well, I did say it was a crazy idea." IIRC, I already said this regarding brundi I believe.

Well, I did say it was a crazy idea.

Oh, and Hiraki, while your vote is on me, would you mind actually reading Moon's ISOs like you promised instead of switching your vote and simply posting that the springtime of youth is erupting?

Also, Plague, any reason why you wanted Hiraki's opinion specifically after my big scum post?

Martini, if I were scum, I would've done this because it would be an opportunistic chance as scum. However, the sudden change that wouldn't help my case at all would represent newbie scum. I don't see how saying that I'm scummy helps a town case at all, like Plague presented initially.

Taking up for me isn't exactly the best position, Brundi and martini. If your confidence in the fact that I'm town is too high for you to take a vote if you think I'm scummiest, it might lure you out as possible scum. Just letting you know before I die.

Oh, and this basically confirms that it's useless for me to use anything from D1 as proof that I'm town:

Scum that isn't sure if want to buss on D1. More convincing to me really.

This is because my vote record was a key focus in the fact that I was town as pointed by Shift, but once the possibility of my being scum arrived, that fact turns into something more convincing that I'm scum.

Nothing left to do except wait for the game to end to find out who scum is.

[Does Bo Know]

Martini, if I were scum, I would've done this because it would be an opportunistic chance as scum.

However, the sudden change that wouldn't help my case at all would represent newbie scum. I don't see how saying that I'm scummy helps a town case at all, like Plague presented initially.

WIFOM.

Oh, then please suggest why else I'd put an elaborate scummy plan out like that right after being known as this "ultra-town player." Otherwise, I don't see how my WIFOM would've been used as a valid town defense anyway, so why point it out when it had no use to help me?

Also, the whole "see when I flip town" thing was already used by Jack in this game iirc. I could be thinking of my other game that just recently finished.

The last sentence in this post says hi.

I don't see any of these pointing to the fact that I'm scumm

ier

.

[Does Bo Know]

Oh, then please suggest why else I'd put an elaborate scummy plan out like that right after being known as this "ultra-town player." Otherwise, I don't see how my WIFOM would've been used as a valid town defense anyway, so why point it out when it had no use to help me?

To show why you're not scum.

Martini was wondering why scum would've done what I did earlier, and I answered with a WIFOM. The only thing that comes with it is the fact that I began it with the biggest WIFOM statement, followed by the most likely reason any scum would've done what they did. I was asking if there was another reason why I, the "scum" in your cases, would've done that besides being a newbie opportunistic scum.

Hiraki, the post I referred to with Moon in it was meant to show that Moon has also made the similar move of saying "I wanna know what you're thinking when I flip townie." Plague just pointed out that I did it, yet hasn't made a single post about Moon doing it when she was scummiest at the time. I didn't see that as valid an argument against me as the rest. And also, you haven't responded to the fact that you haven't commented on Moon's ISO like you promised. That's not something that makes you scummy, I just wanna know why you promised to do it and then drop the topic just to literally watch my wagon fill.

[Does Bo Know]

@DBK
At the time, I did find Moon saying that scummy. I must have not figured that it was that scummy and declined to say something about it. 20/20 hindsight tells me I should have.

Okay, thanks. I'm not using it against you as scum or anything. In fact, I'm reading an on-going newbie game where doing what I just did (trying to say someone else did what I did and they didn't get recognized negatively for it) isn't the best idea for a defense.

[Does Bo Know]

I suggest a Prod Check tomorrow. I have no reasonable topics to keep this game flowing. I'm like really sure of DBKscum.

K.

Here's my post so I don't get prodded. I'd also hate for the person that replaces me to be lynched almost instantly.

[Does Bo Know]

Well, I'm Vanilla Townie. My actions have been townie to many if not all until the sudden scum post where I recommended to lynch Brundi for other reasons. I don't like this scummy idea anymore. I understand that doesn't clear me of anything at all.

In response to the fact that I'm at L-1, I'd like to let everybody know that I hope the new information I have provided that wasn't labeled as scummy can be used to find the remaining scum. There's leeway in this game because scum was caught D1. I hope that town wins the game.

I don't mind being lynched if it means proving that I (or my ideas, per se) might actually be useful after D2.

I will

Vote: Brundibar

to put him on L-1 as well. If for an incredibly insane reason somebody actually hammers him instead and he flips town, I will further accept the idea that I should be lynched.

As far as the replacement information goes, thanks for clearing up on that. I knew prodding meant to check to make sure someone's actually active enough to still play, and a replacement would appear if they were inactive; I just didn't know the time frame.

[Does Bo Know]

very little time to post, but also nothing to really comment on.
So I'm looking forward to hearing from mothrax.

I'm having a hard time wondering why your vote isn't on me, actually.

[Does Bo Know]

Nothing new? I'll second DBK's wondering about

brundi's

vote.

Welcome to mothrax! Always good for fresh views.

So I guess this was a typo? I'm not wondering about Brundi's vote because I know exactly why it's there.

Also, Moon needs to post at some point as well. Her vote is also on Brundi, and she hasn't been too positive toward my playing, either.

[Does Bo Know]

DBK, you still haven't touched our points on why your Brundi vote is beyond pitiful.

Simple. He's scummy enough and he has enough of a wagon in order to carry him to L-1 as well. Otherwise, it is this "last-ditch" effort you so claim.

Though, I now realize the vote isn't helping, especially with the promise I ensure. It ensures that if a miracle happened and Brundi was chosen to be lynched instead of myself, and he were town, it would throw utmost suspicion on me, who would also be town. This would leave only 1 day to find true scum after the events take place. And I'm not confident enough that Brundi is scum to let that much stress come under the town.

Due to this realization, I shall

Unvote

.

[Does Bo Know]

very little time to post, but also nothing to really comment on.
So I'm looking forward to hearing from mothrax.

I'm having a hard time wondering why your vote isn't on me, actually.

very simple, because you're already at L-1 and I wanted to wait for mothrax to catch up to the game/express his opinions.

now where did moonstruck go?

Not so simple. You've had enough evidence to carry on a vote before Shift was even

prodded.

I wasn't even L-1 then, so that vote actually would've been safer than the situation we're in now. So why didn't you vote then, either?

[Does Bo Know]

I wasn't even L-1 then, so that vote actually would've been safer than the situation we're in now.

wait, what do you mean with the safer part?

He means that if you voted him then, so I believe, there wouldn't be doubts on whether or not you were town/scum.

This. Actually, after reading your ISO, I see that you haven't voted

once

. No vote on Jack when he was lynched. No vote on Moon

Now, earlier we have virtually eliminated the possibility of Martini being scum (shown when Martini was a placeholder suspect for many players). Jack's vote on Martini might've been somewhat serious, but it has probably had the least impact in the entire game (not counting RVS). With not a single vote placed on Martini, it is entirely possible that it was a small attempt by Jack to try to remove any suspicion from Martini if he turned up scum.

Wow, I typed a lot more than I thought. Martini, the only reason your vote shouldn't be on me is if you think that I am town, as clearly you don't see anyone as scummier than me at this point. You're being too cautious with your actions, even though the action of voting me wouldn't put you in an uncomfortable position.

With this cautious play, you have also seemed to avoid Moon and Brundi's wagons on D2. Did you have doubts about their being scum as well?

[Does Bo Know]

EBWOP: When I said

No vote on Jack when he was lynched. No vote on Moon

That "No vote on Moon" statement was actually meant to be erased, and placed in a different location of the post, as shown here:

With this cautious play,

you have also seemed to avoid Moon

and Brundi's

wagons on D2

. Did you have doubts about their being scum as well?

[Does Bo Know]

Also, can someone please give me a tl;dr version of the case on DBK, cause I don't see it.

Start from this post and read on.

Um...Brundi...that wasn't smart. I hate to say simply this, but the case under which you switched your vote seems like you're actually trying to follow wagons. You had enough of a case on me, yet a case has barely been made on Martini. I'm trying to see how Martini became L-1 in a matter of hours.

I'll have to look a little deeper into Martini's ISO. While that's being done, I want to give Martini another chance to defend himself as to why his votes...wait...why he

hasn't even voted

despite the valid cases on all the past L-1 people.

[Does Bo Know]

Moon's online, let me just add. I'm hoping you can post soon.

Alright, so after reading both Jack and Martini's ISO posts, I've gathered that it's a possibility for them to be partners. I noticed that the last thing Martini said about most scummy candidates

before

Jack's lynch were Brundi in first and Jack in second. Jack was already headed for a lynch, so it would seem likely that Martini could just claim suspicion on Jack without placing a hammering vote. Plus, Jack highlights that Martini is leaning scum after the wagon on Jack has developed, so the situation works reversely.

I still want Martini to answer the question, as the ISO read alone doesn't help place a vote on Martini. Also, I'm still looking for Brundi's reason for instantly changing to Martini, and I'm curious to hear mothrax's case on Martini later.

[Does Bo Know]

EBWOP: reversely? inversely? Whatever, I just mean that they can

both

claim suspicion on each other because the wagon on Jack was already carried.

[Does Bo Know]

I've come to learn that Hiraki isn't going to change unless someone makes a good point. Nothing's happening with Bo, so I'm trying to get pressure on Martini, and then seeing what to do from there.

Yes, my vote is basically for pressure.

In my mind Bo is still scummiest, but I want to hear what Martini is thinking and hope that the pressure helps.

Don't do this. "Voting for pressure" is too general to put somebody on L-1 in a very short amount of time. What are you pressuring Martini to do? Claim? He claimed Vanilla Townie after being L-1 the first time. To answer questions? Why wouldn't Martini answer questions if he wasn't L-1?

Hiraki, I'd like a very small reason your vote changed to Martini. I'd like to assume it's simply because of the question I raised regarding Martini's absent voting, but I want to confirm it with you before I make any more future statements.

Ninja'd: Hm...mothrax, I linked the page to you that everyone sees me as scummy for. Though, from the last 3 pages your vote needs to be on Martini...interesting.

[Does Bo Know]

Mk, so now there's a case on Martini.. Well, Martini does play a bit less cautiously that everyone seems to be saying, he just hasn't voted. I noticed that in my bandwagon, he threw out an argument that was the source of the bandwagon, then said I was his top suspect without explaining reasoning but didn't give a vote on the bandwagon he had caused. If he thought I was so scummy why no vote? (kinda repetitive argument on my part but I'm trying my best to give my opinions without following others) That much is clearer to me than other bandwagons cause, well, it was my bandwagon, so I'll go through his ISOs and see if he does anything similar in any of the other bandwagons.

The other bandwagons were simply commented on by Martini with almost no new evidence to support beliefs. And Martini hasn't voted

once

, meaning he didn't contribute to any of the wagons you're looking for.

Thought it would save you the trouble, but if you would still like to look for yourself, feel free. You might catch something that none of us had found yet.

[Does Bo Know]

Gah.

Unvote

.

Not exactly sure what to do. I don't like brundi's flip-flopping, but then again there's been three L-1 wagons today. (I think Moon's was)

So yeah. DBK is back to obv town.

He was so cool and collected

, simultaneously defending himself and hunting still. Crazy stuff. I hope to God that I'm never in a game where you're scum....

Lulz at the bolded statement. I didn't think I was once the wagon was on me.

I find it interesting that I'm obvious town to you, Plague. No one else has said anything similar.

But yes, there were 3 L-1's today: Martini, Moon, and me. Martini's gotten it twice. Brundi I think got L-2, but otherwise, nothing major.

Fixed tags. ~~NS

[Does Bo Know]

EBWOP (again): Well, I guess that was a fail quote due to Plague's mistake. But the fact Plague thought I was so cool and collected made me chuckle a little considering my first response to my L-1 wagon being one of shock...I was speechless.

[Does Bo Know]

Well, I'm not going to argue with you there. I admit that my actions as of late have been much more relaxed, but I didn't know the ones directly after my wagon were that calm. Oh well, I guess I'll know what to do in the next situation like that.

Now I wait. *waits patiently for Martini to answer questions*

[Does Bo Know]

Huh. Hey Moon, why's your vote still on Brundibar?

[Does Bo Know]

@Martini: Sorry, then there were 4 L-1's (now 5).

Your D1 reasoning is crap. Your main suspects were Brundi, Jack, and Hiraki for being overconfident in Brunditown. You shouldn't explain that you didn't know who was scum. You should explain why you didn't hammer Jack D1 when he was the second-most scummy to you and there were

2 scum

at the time.

D2: All I see here is that you see scummy people but you weren't ready to hammer. I specifically hate how you say at the beginning of your D2 summary that Brundi was slightly scummy. WHAT? Brundi was a top suspect for you; how would he be slightly scummy once the next day passed? Anyway, everything up until Brundi's second L-1 D2 is fine. When you say that good discussion was happening...it wasn't anything that would take a vote off of Brundi any time soon. Your other reasons afterward seem to be valid; they don't help or hurt you.

And yes, you should've voted me back at "that" stage, because it was possible for you to do so because I was at L-2 at the time; it wouldn't have hurt you.

I see that you could've possibly voted for people at L-2 and it wouldn't affect you; hell, even voting for Brundi at L-1 when you admit he was getting scummier doesn't make you look like a bad guy. Though, you didn't vote. Why?

...It's my belief that you were trying to make sure we stayed alive. 3 scummy people had the chance to be hammered, and you gave them all away. You could've stayed in the shadows while these 3 scummy people would've battled it out with the rest of the town (This is only my hypothesis, however).

Not only this, but you gave some original reasoning for these 3 people being scum D2, and you didn't vote no matter how scummy the players were. Yes, Martini. You've been

fence-sitting

, what Brundibar had been guilty of doing D1.

I want to know what you think of Brundi, Moon, and myself.

It is definite that if these explanations don't please me, I will assert my vote toward you. Prepare your argument accordingly.

@Moon, meh, okay. No one else has a vote on him anyway.

[Does Bo Know]

Hmmzorz. I'm back to square one of today.

Let's finish this bitch.

I'm guessing this relates to your previous vote on Martini?

[Does Bo Know]

Hiraki, how confident are you in Martini's alignment?

[Does Bo Know]

Am I voting Martini?

Um...are you being serious? Yes, you are voting Martini. And if you knew that already, then that shows your confidence in Martini-scum.

[Does Bo Know]

I just wanted to know how confident you were in your thoughts on Martini. You showed ultra-confidence in your other non-RVS votes, but I haven't seen much in this one.

[Does Bo Know]

K.

*waits one last time for Martini*

[Does Bo Know]

Half of the post is quoting, Martini, so it's not that bad. You're attempting to defend yourself, which doesn't make long posts bad for you.

Alright, let's crack down:

It's because I just wasn't sure enough. we still had a very long time before deadline so there was no reason to hammer that quickly. Jack was second most scummy, but still not THAT scummy.

Okay, so just like every other reason, you didn't vote him because "he wasn't that scummy", whether you would've had to hammer or not.

I was confused by his very bold hammer, which I thought scum wouldn't even dare to do (especially with that little explanation). Besides that there was also the reasoning that I posted about hiraki/brundibar. (they couldn't both be scum and hiraki was so sure brundi was

scum

)

Town? Or do you mean in the very beginning?

Otherwise, I don't see why Hiraki saying Brundi is town makes Brundi less scummy. That's just Hiraki's opinion; whether it's right or not isn't something that should affect you thinking that Brundi is scummiest to slightly scummy.

No, indeed, the discussion didn't seem to make him less scummy, but discussion is always good. It was then when moonstruck started acting suspicious.

The reason Moonstruck started acting suspicious was because there was absolutely no discussion to make; we joked about simply waiting for Brundi to flip scum, and then Moon reacted the way she did.

Oh yes let's not hammer on three different wagons by which I wouldn't attract a lot of attention anyway, if I were scum of course I wouldn't want to lynch townies yes?

I don't think you get what I'm saying. Keeping off the wagons means you don't think they're scummy enough to lynch, but why wouldn't you think so even though you have made the arguments on each? If anyone were scum, they'd

usually

lynch townies for scummy reasons. This doesn't mean the opposite is usually true.

Oh yes like I haven't been supporting the moon wagon or the dbk wagon. I just haven't voted/hammered, thats all.

Brundi gave possible reasons for people being scummy and didn't do anything about it. You gave possible reasons for people being scummy and didn't do anything about it.

Brundibar has been doing well with respect to the moon wagon and the DBK wagon, providing decent arguments. (some of them are similar/the same as other people already proided)
The bad things are his last vote ("basically for pressure"), and the stuff he did earlier (wha he was bandwagoned (and almmost lynched) for.
all in all I think more positively of him than when he was almost lynched, but still doesn't seem very town.

Okay, I agree with this completely, from beginning to end.

Moonstruck's wanting to get brundi lynched still doesn't feel right, and she has mostly ignored the DBK wagon. Next post (next day) she ignored this and just started about me. She initially seems to say I'm not too scummy, then gives a small argument against me and notes she will be reading my iso. next day she (yet again) doesn't seem to have done this and suddenly talks about hammering. I find this rather scummy.

Got rid of Moon's quotes for easier analysis. Yes, I do find that quite strange that Moon ignored my wagon and started focusing on you. Though, why? Why would avoiding my wagon and going after the other wagons make her that much more suspicious? You think we're scum partners?

o w8

about DBK:
He has been single-handedly making this wagon on me, which I don't think is scummy, as he is actually scumhunting.
This doesn't make everything as it was before his strange proposal, but I have a lot more confidence in him now than before.
I find it more interesting that a lot of people just agree and vote me, however.

More interesting that people just agree? I don't think it works like that. People don't just agree without finding sense in it. We found sense in the fact you haven't voted even though you had perfectly valid reasons to lynch scummy people.

Now, after these arguments you've made, you haven't convinced me any more that you're town. All you did was point things out that I agree with, and in the parts where you attempted to defend yourself, you've failed. I feel that nothing else you can say can defend you any more.

Oh, and also, Moonstruck can't be pressured with one vote, and we're not accusing you of non-voting because you're simply non-voting.

Vote: Martini

Ninja'd: Looks like Moon cleared her case.

[Does Bo Know]

A hammer? I didn't even get to thoroughly read up on what's happened!

Note to self: Let people read stuff before hammering. *headdesk*

I don't feel as sorry for Plague as I do Mothrax; Everything after Plague's last post is simply Martini criticizing my points against him and what he thought of the 3 people I asked him to describe and my response (with hammer included). Mothrax hasn't posted in a while, and he actually had his vote on Martini, so what might've transpired recently could've actually affected whether my vote would've been a hammer or not.

Ninja'd: Holy. Fucking. Shit.

[Does Bo Know]

Holy. Fucking. Shit.

Qft.

Can I steal for my sig?

Also, I don't mind terribly. I prolly woulda hammered soon anyways.

Certainly. Though I think it loses its effect when its not in context.

But really, GG. I just thought that Martini was in orange because you were borderline, Quil. I wonder if Martini caught onto that.

[Does Bo Know]

Sorry once more if I've done something wrong, Nobody *Bambi eyes*

can we stop discussing my guilt though please D:

On a brighter note, I'm happy to see that no matter whether I lived or died this would still have been a town win (and a perfect one at that).

If only you weren't so incredibly and ultimately town, Quilford. Then Martini wouldn't have killed you. We would've had a

true

perfect win!

[Does Bo Know]

Actually, I was planning on hardcore pressuring Plague tomorrow, just because it got ridiculous how good his reads were, then I noticed that I posted sometimes after he did. Wasn't sure really.

What happened to lynching me D3?

[Does Bo Know]

I'm glad I learned this game. Perhaps I have what it takes to be an effective SE now.

Things I've learned this game:

- Don't mention lynching people in order to find more suspects, as it leads to rage.
- Make sure to let people finish reading what happened before hammering (that was just stupid on my part).
- When put under pressure, instead of complaining, keep scumhunting. It means you're more focused on finding the real culprit instead of staying alive.

I think it would be neat to have the newbies say what they've learned and, even though it might be a stretch, have the IC and SE's give tips on what could've been done to improve the game on both parts.

[Does Bo Know]

Also I stole your signature Quil

And I stole it too.

[Does Bo Know]

There, I altered my sig a bit and gave this game some recognition!

I'd pretty much have to say that Quilford summed up what I had to say about everybody, except I didn't see Shift as much of a scummy candidate, and I didn't notice Martini's fencesitting until I really started pondering why Martini didn't jump on my wagon. But otherwise, good game, everyone! I'd love to play again with at least one of you sometime.

[Does Bo Know]

I lol'd at Plague's failure to change his comments on Shift. And I didn't think Quilford showed any signs of being a cop; just a strong townie. Too strong for scum to convince to everybody that he was scummy.

[Does Bo Know]

Okay, thanks!