Newbie 1082: No Country for Old Mafia - Game Over!

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/confirm

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Vote: WingDamage

, cos his wings had to have gotten damaged from violent activity.

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I don't like bad people. Why do you like the evil one?

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@WingDamage: hehe, I see that now that I'm on a larger screen. I misread your name as "WingDamaged" on my iPod. So whose wings will you be damaging tonight? >__>

@Crazy:
1. I've been playing real life mafia for about 10 years with a solid group of friends, with intermittent change-ups. I've played a couple games here on mafiascum, but I was seriously intimidated.
2. I enjoy playing mafia because I love reading people and using my intuition. The latter oftentimes is not accepted among the males... but I am usually pretty accurate. Playing online affords me the chance to read over discussions many times, to get a better feel for people. I'm a horrible liar. I always get caught as mafia. As such, I much prefer to play as an innocent....usually not even as a power role.

~tldr: I like reading people.

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I just set up my wiki!

[http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=L]

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@cjdrum: hehehe, Usually on day 1 or day 2... I have a bad record. Once I made it to the end as Mafia by not saying anything and looking distracted the entire game... Everyone didn't expect that xD

I'd say my best strength is being a prosecutor.

Speaking of which, why are some of your questions to these players pointed, while others are fluffy (for lack of a better word)? 

Questions for people:

@All - Can you give us all a fresh new reason for your vote?

You ask this after playing voting tag with McG, which still appears a part of all the random voting. Asking others for valid reasons for voting when your own lacks legitimacy is...well... Unfair. And the interchange between you and McG reads as though you voted in retaliation to his vote.

@[L] - How often do you get lynched D1 as scum?

Valid question.

@Prosaurus - If you're so pro, why vote for somebody with over 9000?

Fluffy. It was a random vote.

@Wingdamage9001 - What's your favourite ProTown role?

Valid.

@crazypianist1116 - What is your favourite thing to claim while under pressure as scum?

Valid.

@McGriddle - What would you prefer to be: ProTown or Anti?

Valid.

@zMuffinMan - If you ran a UPick and somebody submitted "The Muffin Man", would they be ProTown or Anti?

Valid, but not really yielding info of value.

@Romanus - All

roads

lead to Romanus. Is this why you voted for the man who famously lives on a Lane?

Fluffy. He specifically stated his reason for his vote.

@Misder - If you were scum, who would you like your scumbuddies to be (from this playerlist)?

Fluffy, on the edge. I can't see what useful information can be gathered from this question.

Your "valid" questions ask things that will reveal important evidence for later in the game. But the fluffy questions are very noncommittal and lack substance... as if you were just filling in a question so as to not leave anyone out, or because you did not feel the need to investigate someone you already know about. Just my thoughts. But it is still early in the game, so there isn't much to ask anyhow, and you've done more work than others.

Are the fluffy questions you asked to be considered relevant?

@Misder: On two occasions, you have stated your surety of my innocence. I don't trust you; just being upfront. It seems as though you are trying to be my buddy, hoping that I will extend the courtesy of dropping suspicion of you. :/
Why exactly have you pegged me as an innocent?

@Prosaurus: I am in the Eastern time zone (GMT -5). My activity will be sporadic and not limited to certain times of the day. But I will at least post everyday.  Could you expound the game mechanics that make Mafia "fun" for you?

@cjdrum: Regarding "fresh new reason"...

Unvote: WingDamage

This vote was random.

Vote: Misder

Because I am following a hunch; I do not like how he can decide so early in the game that I am innocent.

@McGriddle: Could you share more about how this "winning" occurs?

@MuffinMan: After reading your friend's games, what is one thing you learned? What appeals to you to make this game interesting?

@Romanus: What game mechanics in Mafia appeal to your personality? What are the "itty bitty things" that spurred your vote? Please expand.

@WingDamage: Expound on what is "fun" about mafia by sharing your favorite game mechanic.

@All: Banzaii!! Feed meh

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"clearing" anyone this early in the game is not possible.

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@Misder: After reading your post, and evaluating MuffinMan's post - I can't get a read on him at all. Like, nada. What are you reading differently from me? What makes you think he is innocent?

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posts*

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Whoa whoa...please stop the train! Don't lynch anyone yet, I need to read through these pages. It was on page 2 a day ago!

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@Prosaurus:

So why have you pinned them as scummy? Redirecting attention, or being honest?

I have to ask questions to get information out of people. Am I supposed to be super friendly to my future murderers? Like "Oh! Hi! How are you doing today? /big smile Really? You don't say!" I ask to learn information, and keep them talking so they will slip up.

Before I can discuss what the important information gained from the questions I asked, understand this:

People like things. People especially like things that come easily to them. People tend to consider things they like as "fun". By finding out what a person calls "fun", I can likely deduce what comes easily to them.

Your "valid" questions ask things that will reveal important evidence for later in the game. But the fluffy questions are very noncommittal and lack substance... as if you were just filling in a question so as to not leave anyone out, or because you did not feel the need to investigate someone you already know about. Just my thoughts. But it is still early in the game, so there isn't much to ask anyhow, and you've done more work than others.

Are the fluffy questions you asked to be considered relevant?

What important information can be gleaned from the question to me? Or to pretty much anyone? I would think they are easy enough questions to make up a town-sounding answer for.

I consider this information very important as the game progresses, since I play by analyzing diction and logic. The question comes across innocently enough and people are more likely to be honest. I take every answer given to those questions with a grain of salt; erring on the side of caution is always best.

What exactly is the hunch that you're following?

If you're asking about what my hunch was, you did not read my words above the hunch statement.

@Misder: On two occasions, you have stated your surety of my innocence. I don't trust you; just being upfront. It seems as though you are trying to be my buddy, hoping that I will extend the courtesy of dropping suspicion of you. :/
Why exactly have you pegged me as an innocent?

@Prosaurus: I am in the Eastern time zone (GMT -5). My activity will be sporadic and not limited to certain times of the day. But I will at least post everyday.  Could you expound the game mechanics that make Mafia "fun" for you?

@cjdrum: Regarding "fresh new reason"...

Unvote: WingDamage

This vote was random.

Vote: Misder

Because I am following a hunch; I do not like how he can decide so early in the game that I am innocent.

To say it again: I do not like how friendly he is being. The reason I suspect Misder is because in my experience, those who try to buddy up to others, ESPECIALLY so early, are scummy.

The interpretation that mafia are the only ones who can't get any reads on people is untrue this early in the game. There will be many people who fly under the radar - both townies and scum. If it is later in the game, however, and they don't get any reads, then that is telling. Those people are more than likely to be scum.

@Romanus Don't OMGUS, that pretty much got me killed me on my last game

Coaching a bit here? Romanus is the IC here, I think he/she(?) understands basic gameplay. Why do you direct him/her(?)?

Regarding your comment toward Prosaurus, let me rephrase it the way my mind interpreted it.

"Coaching the boss? Why question or direct the boss?"

When I first read Romanus' post, I was put off by it as well because it (1) did not offer explanation, just said what not to do, (2) and he proceeded to do exactly what he said not to do because of emotional reasons. I personally did not even worry about it, but when you're saying "Why question him?" you're agitating the newb pot.

WingDamage - why are you selectively reading posts and questioning as such? You missed my explanation for my hunch, and then questioned my reasoning for the hunch; and then you misread the MuffinMan/Romanus exchange and posted this quote, as if MuffinMan was the first who wrote it. Your explanation is valid, but misplaced. Your post sounds as if you are trying to build cases on misread information. If everyone reads thoroughly, these types of cases won't hold water.

@MuffinMan: Please stop referring to your inexperience. It isn't a crutch. This goes for all of the first-gamers. Scum try to hide behind this excuse all the time.


@Prosaurus:

I don't like bad people. Why do you like the evil one?

Don't see what you mean here.

Kira vs L; evil vs good. I was responding to the "I like Kira" comment. It was unrelated to the game.

@Misder: After reading your post, and evaluating MuffinMan's post - I can't get a read on him at all. Like, nada. What are you reading differently from me? What makes you think he is innocent?

As people in my last game said, Mafia tend to be the ones who can't get reads (Real or false).

What you say is true, but not that early in the game. We were just out of the RVS stage. How can someone get a read during RVS, especially when my posts were explanations of what I like in Mafia and unrelated game matters? Now that the ball is rolling, we will be able to make solid deductions on innocence and guilt. As long as people participate...

...

Regarding @Romanus: I don't see any content from him.

Pressure is a wonderful thing. The fact that we can up the pressure this fast, I believe, is a good thing. I believe to truly move from RVS to real substantive votes, a real wagon has to be formed, with real consequences.

Granted, he is aware of the concept of pressuring scum - but he has not put pressure on

anyone

. He's in a defensive position right now. Scummy read.

@cjdrum:

His flip flopping votes, trying to please the crowd, and constant reminders that he's a newb player in a newbie game are all scum tells. The latter is a newb tell as well as scum tell. Scummy read.

FoS:[L] and Misder

But I'm no voting till I have better reads, and I don't want L-1 this early.

Why not? And also, ask me questions anytime. I'm eager to prove my innocence.

More importantly, @Everyone: Answer the questions from my earlier wall 'o text!!

Done.

Unvote, Vote Romanus

Pressure is good?

Suspicious. You're not even sure of why you're voting.

@Wing
Care to say why you're voting, apart from trying to pressure him?

It's partially a pressure vote, but mostly a vote on scum. He was under pressure before I voted him, and he responded poorly. Especially just now.

Pressure is good?

Yes

Someone puts you to L-2 and all you say is "yes?" He hasn't been scumhunting, he's been pushing for unfounded lynches. It's still early, but I'm just about ready to see him lynched. Nothing personal.

I agree he hasn't been hunting. But I just started to see his words in another light, as though he were an IC answering the question. But he's not hunting just the same. A normal townie IC would have said "Yes" or whatever and proceeded to scumhunt. @WingDamage: Why the need to announce that you were applying pressure? It loses its effect when you say what it is....

I'm not concerned about numbers here. I'm concerned about scumhunting. Odds are we will lynch a townie today. Happens in most games. That really isn't important. What's important is the info you get.

I'm not pushing for lynches, I'm pushing for wagons, serious ones. The simple fact that anyone brought up the possibility of a speed lynch, and the fact that it is tied up in a neat scum bow almost guarantees there will be no speed lynch.

Pressure makes people react. Pressure makes people take a stand in their posts. This is the best way to hunt scum in my opinion.

But you haven't actually done any yet? Scum read.

Brain overloaded, I'll be back in an hour. I'm on page 5 atm.

Unvote

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Vote: Misder

I am seriously uncomfortable unvoting him because my intuition is bugging the hell out of me.

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Romanus' ISO:

Romanus does a lot of explaining of game theories. He made some wishy-washy votes. He explained those as mistakes. Not sure how to take that....on one hand it seems scummy but the vibe I get from him is that he's an over-explainer. What I really don't like is his lack of investigation.

I was and continue to hunt scum. I have my methods, and I like them.

cjdrum is our lynch for today. Opinions?

- What are your methods? Read and let others do the investigating?
- Where in this game have you hunted?

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I've had really good IC's to where it didn't matter if they were town or scum; they kept playing the game as needed. The difference between the IC I knew and this one was that the other didn't colunteer information and just played the game. As we newbs had questions and asked them, answers were offered. In that way it was simpler to sift the fluff [explanations] from the gameplay.

Having an IC is a boon, not a bane.

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EBWOP: Volunteer

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/dictionary -> best friend. ^.^

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Boon: A blessing or benefit; that which is asked or granted as a benefit or favor; a gift; a benefaction; a grant; a present; a prayer or petition; good; prosperous;
Bane: a curse, the cause of destruction.

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@cjdrum:

His flip flopping votes, trying to please the crowd, and constant reminders that he's a newb player in a newbie game are all scum tells. The latter is a newb tell as well as scum tell. Scummy read.

I am suspicious of cjdrum.

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When I play this game, I read everyone's posts thoroughly. Am I alone in doing this??

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cjdrum, I am very much prepared to hammer you. But first, can you post a few things.
1) Why you think you shouldn't be hammered.
2) Your role. I know you said you didn't have a PR, I just want confirmation.
3) Your experience. Links to games.

As you can see here, I am prepared to hammer him.

Do you think it would be a good idea yet?

And no, you aren't. I just missed that post.

First off, that's a scummy thing to ask. Red flags shot up when I read that. Think for yourself. When I heavily suspect someone, I put my vote on them. Sure, it's scary to be in the position as a hammer vote. But asking another player "what do you think I should do?" isn't good. What if they are actually scum? That can set scum up to say "well they told me to". I've been suspicious of you as well because of the number of slip ups you've had.

@cjdrum: why would you think the IC is automatically going to lead the townies? This is a thinking game.

After cj's last post, I'm getting a strong town read on his quotes. I believe scum were working well to get him knocked off.

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Yeaaaah.

Unvote.

And there's no such thing as "old" evidence in mafia.

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Yes, please post your analysis on Pro because I'm getting scummy reads on him. Where do you see what you see?

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Vote: Prosaurus

I am certain he is scum. Not only has he shown definite knowledge on people's alignment, but he has even used WIFOM and tried to postulate why the mafia killed McGriddle. Everyone knows it is a scum tell to try and guess why the mafia did something, and I see those postulations as trying to confuse the town and make them think harder. He's even played the newb card too many times. I'm certain he's one of them.

PBPA:
Post 11: Seems he's eager to start the game, to me. Unbiased: He's asking when the game starts.
Post 13: Null.
Post 35-37: Tells Romanus not to OMGUS because it got Prosaurus killed in his last game. Asks time zone question. Talks about avatar. Null...
Post 46-47:

@cjdrum
1. No. No I can't.
2. :C

@Misder No it wasn't.

I cannot, for the life of me, figure out what questions cjdrum asked of him, and what these replies mean. Clarification Prosaurus?
Post 62-65: Makes it a point to point out that "so far I've only been town." Sure, it could be true, but it says nothing for this game. Moves on to analyze me.

Analysing: [L]

Vote: WingDamage

, cos his wings had to have gotten damaged from violent activity.

Casual RVS stuff. But I thought you thought that they were called 'WingDamaged'?

Null.

I don't like bad people. Why do you like the evil one?

Don't see what you mean here.

Null.

@WingDamage: hehe, I see that now that I'm on a larger screen. I misread your name as "WingDamaged" on my iPod. So whose wings will you be damaging tonight? >__>

@Crazy:
1. I've been playing real life mafia for about 10 years with a solid group of friends, with intermittent change-ups. I've played a couple games here on mafiascum, but I was seriously intimidated.
2. I enjoy playing mafia because I love reading people and using my intuition. The latter oftentimes is not accepted among the males... but I am usually pretty accurate. Playing online affords me the chance to read over discussions many times, to get a better feel for people. I'm a horrible liar. I always get caught as mafia. As such, I much prefer to play as an innocent....usually not even as a power role.

~tldr: I like reading people.

You seem to like town... Always a good thing. If you're such a horrible liar though, I'll be watching for any lies, I'm sure the others will be too.

Granted, I was a little put off by this comment but I won't let it color my views. But it seems worded... funny.

I just set up my wiki!

[http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=L]

No comment

Null.

@cjdrum: hehehe, Usually on day 1 or day 2... I have a bad record. Once I made it to the end as Mafia by not saying anything and looking distracted the entire game... Everyone didn't expect that xD

I'd say my best strength is being a prosecutor.

Speaking of which, why are some of your questions to these players pointed, while others are fluffy (for lack of a better word)? 

...

*

@Misder: On two occasions, you have stated your surety of my innocence. I don't trust you; just being upfront. It seems as though you are trying to be my buddy, hoping that I will extend the courtesy of dropping suspicion of you. :/
Why exactly have you pegged me as an innocent?

@Prosaurus: I am in the Eastern time zone (GMT -5). My activity will be sporadic and not limited to certain times of the day. But I will at least post everyday.  Could you expound the game mechanics that make Mafia "fun" for you?

@cjdrum: Regarding "fresh new reason"...

Unvote: WingDamage

This vote was random.

Vote: Misder

Because I am following a hunch; I do not like how he can decide so early in the game that I am innocent.

@McGriddle: Could you share more about how this "winning" occurs?

@MuffinMan: After reading your friend's games, what is one thing you learned? What appeals to you to make this game interesting?

@Romanus: What game mechanics in Mafia appeal to your personality? What are the "itty bitty things" that spurred your vote? Please expand.

@WingDamage: Expound on what is "fun" about mafia by sharing your favorite game mechanic.

@All: Banzaii!! Feed meh

*

So why have you pinned them as scummy? Redirecting attention, or being honest?
As for your hunch, I see your reasoning (Mafia know who's town and who isn't), but it's still too early to pin these labels on anyone.

This question is asked as if pinning people as scummy is not what I am supposed to do. Redirecting attention? Is that what YOU'RE doing?

"clearing" anyone this early in the game is not possible.

True. But this may be scummy. Mafia don't wish people to be cleared, as it makes those people harder to lynch, meaning a night kill must be used on them, but then people will know that person's reads were honest.

I already spoke on this, but I will again for the sake of the PBPA. It is impossible for people to be cleared just coming out of the RVS stage. Later in the game, if someone couldn't be cleared, sure - the Mafia wouldn't like that. But that wasn't relevant. The argument involving Mafia is a straw man fallacy that was not relating to what I was actually talking about, and therefore disproved my statement by way of defeating the straw man. This is scummy in my opinion. Scummy.

@Misder: After reading your post, and evaluating MuffinMan's post - I can't get a read on him at all. Like, nada. What are you reading differently from me? What makes you think he is innocent?

As people in my last game said, Mafia tend to be the ones who can't get reads (Real or false).

This is very true. But he's building on his straw man. This statement is not applicable to all stages of the game.

I'll be moving on to analysing cjdrum soon enough.

Post 67: Agrees with Misder on his analysis. Throws in some feel-good by saying he's getting a town read on Misder.
Post 73-74: Gives opinion on how the IC should word things. Sure, I was put off by the IC's actions too, but re-reading this puts it in a different light. Are there hidden rules I don't know of? Having someone at L-2 on page 3 is not supposed to happen? Aren't we supposed to scumhunt, and vote, accordingly? Why so cautious about doing thigns a certain way? Would page 4 have been better? Not following that logic. Scummy.
Post 78: Analysis on Misder. Where is the promised analysis on cjdrum? A lot of WIFOM in the post, and framing me to be scum along with Misder.
Post 79: FoS on me and Misder, following previous post. Explains his hesitancy to vote. Town would vote, since that is their only tool. He's not using his tool. Scummy.
Post 81: Promises to analyze Romanus next. Points out his suspicion of Romanus.
Post 84: Romanus analysis. Finds Romanus scummy. The things he finds scummy about Romanus are the fact that Romanus votes and presents evidence that even he finds valid. Here I see him being super cautious yet again! Only scum want bandwagons? Only scum want speed lynches? It's as if he read a book on mafia and is attaching those rules out of context. Scummy because he points out evidence and then contradicts himself with "Although I agree with him" sentiments.
Post 85:

What can be more obvious than a page 4 or 5 or even 6 speed lynch? I don't care about shrouding in logic, the action of a speedlynch could not be covered by any amount of disinfectant.

I think L-2 is exactly where he should be right now. L-1 I'd be fine with, then we would get some seriously nervous posts.

I'm really not sure why people are so afraid of actually putting some real pressure on someone.

Speed lynches are BAD for town. With 7 town 2 mafia alive, a speed lynch will probably cause it to be 5 town 2 mafia.

Erm. Why wouldn't it be 6 town 1 mafia by day two?? Do you know something we don't?

Post 88: More pressure on Romanus. He's focused. Town attribute, imo.
Post 91: More pressure on Romanus. He's focused. Prophesies Romanus' lynch? Scummy.
Post 97/99: Mocks/teases Romanus for changing his tune. I suspect Romanus for this change as well. Town read.
Post 106:

The evidence grows. Romanus, you better start acting like town.

This really tastes bad when you eat it. "You better start acting like town?" All this says to me is that Pro is acting as well.
Although cjdrum does seem to be bandwagoning a lot. Maybe they're scum? Or possibly just a newbie not know who to vote for.[/quote]
]Post 107-108:

Although cjdrum does seem to be bandwagoning a lot. Maybe they're scum? Or possibly just a newbie not know who to vote for.

Where is the analysis on cjdrum? Unvotes to avoid hammer on Romanus, asks Romanus to claim. Romanus' subsequent replies are scummish. Townie read on Pro?
Post 111:

I don't care. He acts like scum, he gets lynched like scum.

It's as if he is taunting Romanus.
Post 113-115: In response to Crazy's analysis on Pro, he plays his newb card "I'm learning". He also denies saying that Romanus was not scumhunting, which was a lie. He accused him of it and voted him for it. Plays newb card again.
Post 116:

McGriddle should really post.

Deflection? Don't like being looked at? Scummy.
Post 120:

Can everyone post who they think is most suspicious and why?

For me, I'd still say Romanus is most suspicious, for the whole speed lynch thing, then changing his mind. But he seems to be acting more like an IC now, so that's good, I will be rethinking my vote.

Asks for everyone else's opinion on who is scummy. Says he thinks Romanus is still the most suspicious, but praises him for being like an IC and says he's rethinking his vote on Romanus... when he's already unvoted. Wishy washy scummy.
Post 125: Explains his vote removal to crazy, saying he didn't want Romanus hammered.

Cjdrum then pretty much begs for his life, and says how he doesn't want to be killed. Prosaurus gets really scummy here in response.
Post 129-132:

Here's what I learnt: If you try to survive, you won't.
You'll be accused of being scum.

There will be other games for you to learn. Read my last game, see what happened to me.

I don't want it to happen to any other townie.

He says this as if he already KNOWS cjdrum is innocent. I don't want it to happen to any other townie?!

Post 145: Explanation of his different playstyle than when he was town in a previous game.

@Misder Yes I am playing differently. I'm trying to avoid what I did last time that got me lynched.

@Wing That was just dumb.

I still dunno about cjdrum. Seems more newb than anything, we'll have to let him defend himself.

@cjdrum Read my last game. It's happening to you now.

Again, likens cjdrum's position to his own past game when he was innocent. SCUMMY!

Post 150-151:

cjdrum, I am very much prepared to hammer you. But first, can you post a few things.
1) Why you think you shouldn't be hammered.
2) Your role. I know you said you didn't have a PR, I just want confirmation.
3) Your experience. Links to games.

What other roles for town are there, except for town and power role? The other two questions seem like RQS questions - aka fluff.

Post 153:

@L I really hate having an IC. They're meant to help newbies learn to play and answer questions, but if they play themselves it isn't too fair. But if they don't play, they'll be lynched and we wouldn't have anyone to answer our questions. And there's also a problem if they're scum.

WIFOM for days. So if the IC plays the game, they'll be lynched, regardless of whether they are scummy or townish? And if they are scummy they will kill all of us easily? Is that why you hate having IC's play?

And why, exactly, is it unfair for IC's to play in newbie games

?? Is it because you will get caught?

[urlhttp://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p ... 3#p2909933]Post 156-160[/url]: dictionary stuff.
[urlhttp://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p ... 1#p2909971]Post 161[/url]: Asks me what my thoughts are on cjdrum. Up until this point, he has not shown too much interest in cjdrum except to "console" him. I respond by quoting myself and ask why people [Prosaurus] don't read thoroughly.
Post 164-165:

cjdrum, I am very much prepared to hammer you. But first, can you post a few things.
1) Why you think you shouldn't be hammered.
2) Your role. I know you said you didn't have a PR, I just want confirmation.
3) Your experience. Links to games.

As you can see here, I am prepared to hammer him. Do you think it would be a good idea yet?

And no, you aren't. I just missed that post.

So he moves from uninterested to "about to hammer". Strange leap. Scummy!

Well, forgot it.

Answers my question, says he "missed that post", oops, "forgot it".
Post 172: Hammers cjdrum, and then consoles him again. Evil.

I've been vote flipping, bandwagonning and just not thinking in general. I haven't been pushing a quick lynch on purpose, but that's what's come across.

I was following the IC because they're meant to be kind of helpful with what is good Town behavior - even if they're scum, they've probably played as scum enough to know what good Town behavior is. So with Romanus flipping and stuff, I mindlessly followed...

So why I was scummy - mindlessly following vote flipping and bandwagonning on that.
Why I did it - Didn't think. Romanus was talking about putting pressure on Misder, so I was helping with pressure. He changed (for "pressure" again), and I thought I was helping with pressure again.

And, can you explain that last comment? Are you saying that I can't trust probability, or that two ICs in a row is unlikely?

TBH, this sounds very WIFOM-y to me.
I wanted to know your experience so I could tell if you really are newb or not. While I would vote for Romanus, having an IC can be useful even if they are scum. We'll see how it turns out on Day 2.
VOTE: cjdrum
Sorry, just remember. If you are town, you can still win even if you die. And there will be other games.

Post 194-195:

Ugh. So cjdrum is town?
I really do hate getting newb tells and scum tells mixed up. cjdrum, since you're actually confirmed town, it means you can say anything you want and we'll believe it. Just keep in mind, what you say now can affect the whole game.

Also @Misder, Just put in a link to the post you're quoting, or at least say

Post 45324432

. That isn't a real post by the way.

It hasn't been confirmed yet??

It's a heck of alot of pressure doing a hammer vote. After I saw the post that looked so WIFOMy I figured a hammer would have a 50% chance to be right. And cjdrum saying we should hammer him really put me off.

Post 205:

Hmmmm. Misder, you seem a bit too trusting of most people, almost as if you know we're town. I'm beginning to see what L saw, but I must admit you are in fact scumhunting and doing your best. You shouldn't think of anyone as town till they're dead. You should really be thinking how scummy they are, and voting for the scummiest.

What you're seeing and what I saw are two completely different things, at two different stages of the game. My observation was dependent on it being early in the game. Your seeing of the similar matter is happening after the first lynch. Two completely different things. I view this statement as him leading his suspicions in Misder's way, when he never even thought of Misder Day 1.
Post 216:

@ crazy

They should kill the IC because the IC is the one who helps newbs most, and this is a Newbie Game.

@Muffin IC answers questions, scum or not.
cjdrum claimed town after twilight. No point lying then is there? They might have had their own analysis on someone.
I don't know how smart Romanus is. All I know is scum (Who I say is Romanus and someone else) chose McGriddle as their NK. I have no reason why they would.

WIFOM statement about who the mafia should kill. Claims are /= to a mod's declaration.

Prosaurus should have a wine named after him, he does it so often.

[-L-]

@Prosaurus: can you please answer the questions I asked?

[-L-]

@WingDamage, @Romanus, @Misder - please reconsider (@Wing) and consider Prosaurus. He has to be scum!

[-L-]

[quote="Prosaurus]
The random fluff questions they posted.

Can you quote them? I looked at both of them in ISO and in the normal thread and could not put 2 and 2 together.

Dang fool twisting my words. Did not tell the IC how to word things. L-2 is never really good so early. Did not say it's against any rules. Yes scumhunt. Yes vote. No speedlynch.

Like Romanus was saying, voting someone to L-1 puts pressure on them. The person is receiving pressure because they were scummy. Romanus then unvoted because he didn't want scum to hammer before any information was gained. This is a legit play in my opinion. It is not classified as a speedlynch.

Speedlynch

A speedlynch is a very quick lynch, resulting from several votes one after another. Often used by mafia to win games when in the endgame, or by the town when a confirmed Sane Cop has a guilty result. Often criticised for wasting information that could be gathered during the Day, or warned against to promote caution in Lynch or Lose situations.

Example

5 players are alive, two of which are mafia. (A common scenario on Day 3 of a Newbie Game) If one of the townies votes for another townie, both mafia can jump on the bandwagon before the voting townie can unvote, and the mafia win the game immediately.

From the wiki. Speedlynches are what happens on later days, not day 1. So your explanation for being against these things is not legit.

Was saying it was possible. Not certain.

Good job!

You know what FoS is right? It's like a quarter vote, when I'm not sure I use it.

Yes I know what it is. But it's a commonly used scum tool, so they can switch and hop onto any bandwagon that's getting steam.

I are suspicious, and of course I'm going to be careful after my last game.
Good job.
Herp Derp genius. Mafia don't speedlynch each other.
WIFOM. They could.
Like Romanus didn't predict cjdrum's lynch.

Let's take a look at the difference.

This is a bit of an aside, and maybe a defense of some sort. As is in my signature, I like stirring shit. It has to be done. The best way to get it done is to do some controversial thing. I have done that. I took a stand for a type of play I like, that is, getting someone close to a lynch and seeing how people react. The quickness and ease at which the L-1 vote came in made me reconsider what was going on. Attention has to be drawn somewhere. And I don't mind being in the spotlight. I say things that will generate reactions. Things I fully intend to explain later, like the "Yes I can, No I won't," line.

Unvoting when it got to L-1 was prudent. It could also be interpreted a few ways. I also determined that my vote was in the wrong place.

I was and continue to hunt scum. I have my methods, and I like them.

cjdrum is our lynch for today. Opinions?

vs.

@Romanus Acting confident, are we? Unless you can convince us you aren't scum (Which will be hard), I see a lynch in your future.

Haha, nice mood change there.

Was not a lie. I said he was scumhunting if anything.

Without evidence. That's what you said.

I'm sorry. Wut?

Crazy started examining you, and in 3 posts you stressed that you "were learning" and denied saying that Romanus was not scumhunting. Right after responding to crazy, you say "McGriddle should really post." That's what I call deflection.

Lol nice memory bro. Go over your analysis again.
F

irst off, I'm not your "bro". I don't have anything dangling between my legs. I went over my analysis again and again before I posted. I even went over it again after you responded. And it the same. "Asks for everyone else's opinion on who is scummy. Says he thinks Romanus is still the most suspicious, but praises him for being like an IC and says he's rethinking his vote on Romanus... when he's already unvoted. Wishy washy scummy." You have only responded with one word answers and quips to everything I posted.

Yet.

??

Well I don't.

Not sufficient.

How?

You explained away your different playstyle from when you were town before, when Misder noticed and called you out on it. You proceed to make a comment about cjdrum about how he's likely a newb, and the way you worded it seems like you were saying he's likely newb town. Then you say "Cjdrum, read my last game. It's happening to you now." How is that not likening your past position as a townie to cjdrum's? It's clearly bringing similarity into the discussion.

Fluff how? I had reasons. 1)Letting him defend himself 2)Confirming. READ. 3)Wanted to know how newb they were.
I did read. That's why I'm accusing you. What are those reasons you speak of?
Lynched if scummy, NKed if town. I say ICs are much too experienced, and new people don't want the IC lynched much, so if IC is scum they have a better chance at winning.
I

'm not understanding, still. Why are IC's to be treated any differently than any other player in the game, except for the fact that they know more than us? Your reasoning is flawed and very WIFOM-y because if the IC is scum, they win easily, because the town won't lynch them because they need the assistance the IC provides?? And that the mafia will always target the IC if he's town because they want the town to run around like chickens with their heads cut off? My head is twisted...

Console meaning...?

Console meaning you told cjdrum "Better luck next time! Sorry to see you go! Have a nice life!" Yeah, that type of consolation.

Well they got scummier and scummier, thought if they and Romanus were scum, they'd be better to lynch first.

But you were bandwagoning onto cjdrum. It was as if he was the most convenient one to get rid of. Seriously, this is what convinced me of your scumminess, combined with your slip-ups.

Who would lie during twilight? Even if I did think they could be lying. D:

So you believe he could have been lying, even though you doubt anyone would lie during twilight? Hmmm, let me think this one over.

Why would scum wonder why scum killed who they did?

Do you really have to ask this like I'm stupid? Mafia's goal is to deceive.

Dang fool. Seem to be pushing towards me a bit much.

Seems? I am pushing hard against you because you are guilty.

[/quote]

[-L-]

Bah, formatting messed up. And the blue is too light :\

[-L-]

@crazy: Yes

[-L-]

Exactly!

[-L-]

Winning! #Droopy-eyed armless children.
I didn't feel like writing up a case of nothing but

/barning

. Instead, I placed a vote, and now we'll have some real information to work with. If prosaurus flips town, crazy and romanus are scum team. No question about it.

I couldn't find "Barning" in the wiki?

[-L-]

@Misder: I disagree with you regarding Pro's deflection post. It wasn't a post all by itself; rather, it followed 3 defense posts to crazy's observation. Scummy! If it had been alone amidst others' posts, then it would have been a null read.

When is fenchurch coming? This guy needs to be exposed!!

[-L-]

Vote: No Lynch

What crazy said. Is it possible the scum are messing with our heads and didn't target anyone? I hope they did target someone.

I'm sorry Prosaurus, but your play was so scummy. I'd say WingDamage or Romanus/Zorblag would be my next suspects, but I'll wait until they get guilty scans.

[-L-]

Yes

[-L-]

Not doc!

[-L-]

Vanilla townie.

That's the end? /nom

[-L-]

@xMuff: First off, the claims were mostly lies, because the scum didn't come out and admit they were scum. So I hope the cop did the same so they wouldn't be targeted. We don't have any way to even prove Wing is the Doc, because we don't know who was targeted last night. I don't believe the mass claim until we move forward, or see the scum slip up. I find your post trying to guess WIFOMy as well because of how your scenarios run.

Who do you think deserves lynching, then?

@crazy: A gambit that would be - totally agreed. But are the scum the newbies, or more experienced players? That is also WIFOMy.

Who do you believe deserves lynching, then?

@zorblag: Just trying to understand our position exactly. If we mislynch today, plus a night kill, that leaves us with 2 scum, 2 town. At that point it would take how many votes to lynch? 3? And so, if we mislynch at that point, we lose, right? But if we lynch scum today, plus a night kill, that will put us at 1 scum, 3 town. That's most certainly a win, because the cop can finish scanning! Right? [I really believe there is a cop, I'm not giving up hope~]

So isn't a No Lynch better since it will put us in a better position? Why are you against a no lynch?

[-L-]

@Zorblag: I'm not the cop. :\

[-L-]

@[L], yeah, no one should be the cop here. If you don't think that there's a cop in the game do you think that no lynch makes sense now?

The good news is that we should have a fine shot at winning this game without the cop; we've certainly gained information of at least some sort for the mass claim. What are you thoughts on WingDamaged9001 and Misder being cleared at this point?

@WingDamaged9001, I can give you what I think about what he did, sure. Again, I can't say what he was thinking at any particular time as I'm not him, but I can give it some analysis if you think it would be useful. Let me look it over in isolation.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

But just because I'm not the cop doesn't mean that there isn't one

But yes, continuing as though there were no cops would mean that lynching today is the best option. But I've lost confidence in my scumhunting skills after the Prosarus fiasco. Although I really like your style, Zorblag, I think Romanus/you are the most suspicious. I see your style of play as separate from your role - you play very well to explain to us newbs. You've been doing that very well so far - but while avoiding any talk directly about the game.

Please do explain your predecessors actions!

[-L-]

I am a girl, just so you know.

@Zorblag on WingDamage: He does not ever appear to be scumhunting; he never felt suspicious about any one person to go and dig deeper on. He consistently said "still unsure on everyone", "no strong reads on anyone". He did express suspicion of me, but never asked me anything so I could respond. That bothers me, because that isn't like my style of play. When I find someone who seems guilty, I dig deeper in on that person until I'm satisfied. Looking at Wing's posts in ISO, he never does any digging, his posts are one or two lines each - filled with either scorn, votes, promises to post more [which never happened], and his Doctor claim.

It was at this point [the claim] that us newbs lost control of the game, and I honestly feel like we're being handled, and shown a certain way to think. You, Zorblag, came onto the scene and handily convinced us that Wing is telling the truth. Now, granted, a lot of his posts could be like a doctor keeping a low profile - but it is the lack of scumhunting that is sticking in my craw. Up until this point, I've been getting a town read on Wing, but it was just based on intuition. I never really looked at Wing because of this. Looking at him in ISO right now though, opens up possibilities that he's the real scum, at this point. I'm suspicious of you and Wing at this point in time.

I'm conflicted though, because the mafia failed or did not kill last night. If the scum were newbs, then we should believe they failed, because all newbs would attempt a kill. If they were experienced people, then we should believe they failed, or are running a gambit.

In the beginning I really focused on Misder for his apparent "knowledge" - but after I saw his massive scumhunting efforts on day 1, I was sure he was a townie. It seems as if his intuition is working the same as mine. That is why I unvoted him [unsuccessfully since it was post lynch!]. There is a major difference between Wingdamage and Misder or me, for instance.

Which brings me to another observation of WingDamage: I don't think he's the newb he portrays himself to be. Watch the diction in his writings:

Post 27:

Vote McGriddle

Told ya.

As for crazy's questions,
1. This is my second game here, and I have three games on another site.
2. I enjoy playing mafia because it is fun. Heh.

@[L] - My wings aren't the ones that are damaged...

But he says things like this, that sound experienced to me:

Post 140:

Well, nobody wants to get lynched. It's like saying "Oh, that person voted for someone. Scum vote for people."
Or even "That person was talking. Scum talk. That person must be scum."

I've been trying to keep up with the IC, and his reasons seemed good. And then he's been all... Mm.
So I've been lost - I've already been programmed to trust ICs, and everything threw me off and I've gone haywire. It's kind of hard to keep up with... What Romanus is being.

Lalala WIFOM lalala...

This post is exactly how I expect to see newb scum respond to strong pressure. I very much expect cj to flip scum at this point.

Unvote, vote cjdrum

This comment about "newb scum" strikes me as someone who is well versed in these games.

@Zorblag on MuffinMan: I find that he uses a lot of WIFOM, and obviously so. Whether he's using it to throw people off [as scum], or is really trying to gain understanding of certain mechanics is hard to tell. Looking at MuffinMan in ISO, I see a lot of scummy things from him.

Some things he says really bother me, like:

I was defending the point strongly because it tied in with one of the reasons I'm suspicious of crazypianist today. crazypianist posted without even looking at possible alternatives. I don't like that. Even if they aren't as likely, they're still possible.

And yes, this particular part of my argument is similar to one particular part of my argument against Prosaurus. That is very perceptive of you, Zorblag.

Defending at this point is not what a townie would be concerned with doing. It is almost as if he is deflecting to crazy.

And when he says "How perceptive of you, Zorblag", that sent chills down my spine. Intuition says he fails.

OK, I'm going to lay some thoughts out based on the claims that I've had a some time to think through.

First of all, the claims eliminate two setups. With no cop claim, there are only two possible setups left:

# 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies, or
# 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Doctor, 6 Townie

I'll cover my thoughts on the second scenario first, since I think it is more likely.

Just speaking probability - I see many more possibilities than that. How does he settle on one as being more likely than the other one? Scummy.

As for crazy, I've never looked at him in depth because others set off my scumdar more than he. I'll post my thoughts on crazy later today when I have time.

Regarding Zorblag, I have a loud suspicion that I'm being gamed by him. It's as if he came into the game, declared a person innocent, took control - when his predecessor looked very scummy to most people [and to me, in hindsight].

Because I'm suspicious of Wing, Zorblag, and Muffin, I'll be placing my vote now.

I vote Muffin because his overall diction is not appealing to me.

Vote: zMuffinMan

[-L-]

@crazy: And your thoughts on the rest of us?

[-L-]

Unvote

This has gotten heated.

[-L-]

@crazy: I'm still writing up my analysis on the discussion between the two of you. Not fence sitting. Soon!

[-L-]

It really bothers me that Zorblag and Wing are so inscribe. >:(

[-L-]

EBWOP: inactive

[-L-]

Posts 318-322 caused me to strongly doubt my vote. I got the feeling that two townies were going at it, and that the scum were lurking. I honestly get the feeling of being handled by those who are more experienced. I'm very grateful to how Zorblag taught me things like how mass claims work; but when I think about the conclusions drawn I cannot see his logic. I've played a lot of mafia in the real world - but it can't be all that different. When mass claims happen, people lie. It happened! So what if more people were not lying, besides scum?

I see muffinman and crazy going back and forth on the prosaurus/cjdrum issue. It's as if they cannot agree. To me, and obvious town tell is when two of them really argue and disagree on things, especially something so [in hindsight] miniscule.

Honestly I'm fuzzy and unsure when it comes to the concept of nolynch. Sure - I understand "what" it is, but when I try to understand how to apply/use it - it isn't clear. I can't tell if I'm being told what to do - so my obvious reaction to such treatment is to vote the person I see as scummiest.

Muffinman strikes me as very scummy because of his wording, his defensiveness, and how he misrepresents some arguments. [For instance - saying I was attacking his defensiveness over his argument, when in fact I was attacking his defensiveness period.]

Crazy also strikes me as scummy not because of buddying, as Muff described - but because of his lack of scumhunting [which can be said of Muff as well], and his defensiveness.

When I put the two together, and look at the combined defensiveness, it strikes me that possibly we have two townies fighting each other and the scum are sitting back and laughing.

This led me to unvote. Crazy then suspected me of fencesitting [which is a legitimate thought, and a townie one at that]. But I am waiting for Zorblag and Wing to contribute much more.

@zorblag: I believe his [wing's] partner is you. I stated this twice before. And if that's not right, then it's you and muffinman. Granted the claim is somewhat believable - but only if we were to believe the scum definitely did try to kill. I see the possibility of a gambit too large to ignore, and a doctor claim too plausible in that situation. So tell me how nolynch fits? If we have scum, shouldn't we be lynching them?

Regarding your statement about finding crazy scummy - he hasn't posted enough through the days - and he honestly didn't register on my scumdar. That's why I've been taking a second look at him. But in evaluating Muffin vs Crazy - my conclusion is that they are townies fighting at each other's throats.

Posting after a two day job fair.

[-L-]

@Misder: After reading your post, and evaluating MuffinMan's post - I can't get a read on him at all. Like, nada. What are you reading differently from me? What makes you think he is innocent?

As people in my last game said, Mafia tend to be the ones who can't get reads (Real or false).

...To quote Prosaurus.

Vote: Wing

Not knowing by this stage of the game, and not placing a vote at all during the day is not productive, or pro-town.

[-L-]

Hmm, but one sec. It's not possible for there to be no power roles; is it?

[-L-]

I was defending the point strongly because it tied in with one of the reasons I'm suspicious of crazypianist today. crazypianist posted without even looking at possible alternatives. I don't like that. Even if they aren't as likely, they're still possible.

And yes, this particular part of my argument is similar to one particular part of my argument against Prosaurus. That is very perceptive of you, Zorblag.

Defending at this point is not what a townie would be concerned with doing. It is almost as if he is deflecting to crazy.

And when he says "How perceptive of you, Zorblag", that sent chills down my spine. Intuition says he fails.

I was attacking your defensiveness.

Ironically, you're now voting Wing, who could only possibly be mafia if he is part of a roleblocker/goon combination and they chose not to submit a night kill last night by gambling on the setup.

Why don't you believe Wing's claim?

Ironically? Really? What's ironic about it? And the setup you mention has never occurred to me - and also makes no sense. Why is a roleblocker absolutely necessary? What I think has happened is that an experienced mafia player is playing a gambit - no idea what their actual mafia role is. I believe it's to teach us newbs what to do in a situation like this. Wing's claim is plausible - unless you take into account the scumtells pouring off of him. Scumtell 1: He doesn't hunt. Scumtell 2: He doesn't help us. Scumtell 3: He hammered Pro [although I was happy that day because I thought we got scum] with little explanation except to say he didn't want to "barnacle". Scumtell 4: He hasn't participated even though I called him out. That's lurking. >:( And the fact that Zorblag/Romanus has been quiet as well, and everyone [except me ] has suspected him from the beginning, makes me believe more in the gambit idea.

If I were to throw away the idea of the gambit, then I could believe Wing's claim, and chalk his behavior up to a hiding doctor. But I'd rather follow my gut.

Who are your suspects Muffinman? Who do you suspect most?

@crazy: Do you believe Zorblag is scum?

[-L-]

Oh hi Misder WB!

LOL. If you were to place your vote, where would you place it right about now?

Thanks for showing up

[-L-]

Ok, then. I see now where muffin got his idea from. If there aren't any power roles, then there definitely is a

But it is possible for there to be just a doctor. If I bow and give the mass claim any credence, the that would mean we were in setup 4 of F9. That would cause Wing's claim to be possibly true, considering he went first, and everyone said "not doc". That would make his scumtells those of a hiding doctor. My thing is, with a source like that in the wiki, the mafia know what the lay of the land is based on their roles. They could easily run a gambit I can't let go of my Wing vote. Besides him my suspects are Zorblag and muffin; with Zorblag in the lead.

@wing: why did you protect the same person (Misder) twice in a row? It's easy to say that to avoid conflict?

@Misder: did you receive a message saying you were protected? Can you confirm wing's claim?

[-L-]

EBWOP: roleblocker.

[-L-]

You used the past tense: "believed". What has changed your mind?

I also felt Misder's towniness, hence why I unvoted him after he presented all his notes on everyone on day 1. :/ I feel that your claim is legit... But it will suck big time if you're really scum.

Unvote

Vote: Zorblag

[-L-]

Haha! I'm not the one you're looking for. My vote is cemented because I'm sure.

/noms candy~

[-L-]

Still reading, but I feel like an awwkward schoolgirl in the presence of Edward the vampire. Based on key things he said and his diction, I'm apt to believe he's a townie. I'm really feeling appreciative of Thor's presence, excited the thread isn't dead! Woohoo!

Thanks for coming to our rescue

[-L-]

I'm pretty upset that Thor looks so townie. I'm vacillating on my theories on him being paired with Wing.

@Thor: what do you think about the points I presented in my case against wing and zorblag(you)? I know zorblag answered me but it was not at all satisfactory.

I'll repost if necessary.

On day one, I suspected Misder because of a scummy slip that only an informed party would make. I play like a pitbull - I grab throats and never let go until satisfied. It wasn't an unwillingness to vote otherwise - I wanted others to vote with me. But when I saw all of his analyses, I saw that he was putting effort into finding scum, and unvoted. It was post lynch though. Why did you consider his analyses otherwise? Why not read them?

Regarding crazy, I've been convinced more of his towniness - even though it's based on my theory of you and wing. What specifically irks you about him? I've seen him asking real questions of people, as opposed to the fluffy questions asked by others.

@Misder: can you explain your lack of scum hunting since day 1? Most of your posts since then have been of the flavor "just catching up, more later".

@thor: To answer your question [joke?] about my lack of a wall-o-text; I was posting from my phone. Phear the phone!!

[-L-]

Oh yeah, my pronoun is "she". Not looking for special treatment, just correctness.

[-L-]

I am pretty set on the idea that there were fakeclaims. It's obvious since the scum obviously lied. No one else suggested what I suggested, and because I find those who suggested other things scummy - I'm trying to think out of the box.

And I don't think you read far enough back - I presented my suspicions more in depth prior to that post. Still on my phone but I will repost them tonight from my comp. Wing/Muffin are the most likely scum team. I unvoted muffin because of the crazy/muffin backtalk - despite his scummy tells I figure they're both town while the more experienced players are sitting back, laughing. I unvoted wing because of post 353, where he made his doc claim believable by stating misder's towniness, which I agreed with. That left you, the last scumspect.

[-L-]

Unvote

[-L-]

Here I am asking why you were lurking so hard:

I was defending the point strongly because it tied in with one of the reasons I'm suspicious of crazypianist today. crazypianist posted without even looking at possible alternatives. I don't like that. Even if they aren't as likely, they're still possible.

And yes, this particular part of my argument is similar to one particular part of my argument against Prosaurus. That is very perceptive of you, Zorblag.

Defending at this point is not what a townie would be concerned with doing. It is almost as if he is deflecting to crazy.

And when he says "How perceptive of you, Zorblag", that sent chills down my spine. Intuition says he fails.

I was attacking your defensiveness.

Ironically, you're now voting Wing, who could only possibly be mafia if he is part of a roleblocker/goon combination and they chose not to submit a night kill last night by gambling on the setup.

Why don't you believe Wing's claim?

Ironically? Really? What's ironic about it? And the setup you mention has never occurred to me - and also makes no sense. Why is a roleblocker absolutely necessary? What I think has happened is that an experienced mafia player is playing a gambit - no idea what their actual mafia role is. I believe it's to teach us newbs what to do in a situation like this. Wing's claim is plausible - unless you take into account the scumtells pouring off of him. Scumtell 1: He doesn't hunt. Scumtell 2: He doesn't help us. Scumtell 3: He hammered Pro [although I was happy that day because I thought we got scum] with little explanation except to say he didn't want to "barnacle". Scumtell 4: He hasn't participated even though I called him out. That's lurking. >:( And the fact that

Zorblag/Romanus has been quiet as well, and everyone [except me ] has suspected him from the beginning, makes me believe more in the gambit idea.

If I were to throw away the idea of the gambit, then I could believe Wing's claim, and chalk his behavior up to a hiding doctor. But I'd rather follow my gut.

Who are your suspects Muffinman? Who do you suspect most?

@crazy: Do you believe Zorblag is scum?

And here I ask why I should believe you, when it seems you want me to believe something new to me - when another viable idea is plausible. You've already answered the plausibility part - so I know it's too much of a risk.

@Zorblag on WingDamage: He does not ever appear to be scumhunting; he never felt suspicious about any one person to go and dig deeper on. He consistently said "still unsure on everyone", "no strong reads on anyone". He did express suspicion of me, but never asked me anything so I could respond. That bothers me, because that isn't like my style of play. When I find someone who seems guilty, I dig deeper in on that person until I'm satisfied. Looking at Wing's posts in ISO, he never does any digging, his posts are one or two lines each - filled with either scorn, votes, promises to post more [which never happened], and his Doctor claim.

It was at this point [the claim] that us newbs lost control of the game, and I honestly feel like we're being handled, and shown a certain way to think. You, Zorblag, came onto the scene and handily convinced us that Wing is telling the truth. Now, granted, a lot of his posts could be like a doctor keeping a low profile - but it is the lack of scumhunting that is sticking in my craw. Up until this point, I've been getting a town read on Wing, but it was just based on intuition. I never really looked at Wing because of this. Looking at him in ISO right now though, opens up possibilities that he's the real scum, at this point. I'm suspicious of you and Wing at this point in time.

Sorry for not posting last night!

[-L-]

@Thor: why or what is giving you scummy reads on me? I'd like to handle each.

[-L-]

Just curious - but what does VCA mean? The wiki had nothing on it. :\

[-L-]

I saw you use vote count analysis, yes; I did not relate the two until I read zmuffinman's clarification. Call me dumb.

[-L-]

Hi hi

[-L-]

Restating opinions is not the same as scumhunting. I'm waiting for more from Misder, Wing, and crazy's slot before continuing. You are aggressive, yes, Thor, but it seems more like you are spinning wheels in mud rather than getting anywhere for town.

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@Misder - using your logic that "'analyzing VCA' is 'town play'" is no fair for me - because I've never seen VCA before, and wouldn't know to use it. It's not in my toolbox. I've gotten a town read on Thor, based on his diction and the fact that he explained not only his position, but those of his two predecessors.

@Thor - I asked Misder to explain his lack of scumhunting. That is my outstanding question that has not been answered.

@Ant - Way to frame someone. At that stage of the game I strongly believed that there was a cop. Mafia always has a cop, a doc, scum, and townies. But soon after I was referred to the wiki which shows 4 different setups.

No I didn't see why the massclaim was better - because I was being 'told' what to do. I have two unfinished games on this site. I don't know all the lingo, and didn't understand no lynch. I was looking for clarification. I was not "sublty" pushing for Zorblag/Wing's lynch - rather - I was pushing hard. The whole thing didn't make sense to me - and I felt Zorblag/Wing were pulling a gambit. Once Muffin and crazy came in and explained a few things, I started changing my mind because I saw I was being too bullheaded.

Your attacks on me are based on pulling my quotes completely out of context, and framing them to say completely baseless things. That stinks big time. The fact that the back and forth between your position and muffin stank of the same thing is bothersome. I got a town read on you - but I believe I was misled.

Vote: Ant_to_the_max

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Most likely muffin.

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You took them out of context because you completely missed the context of what I went through that day. You were just skimming for comments that you could use to pin me as scum.

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@Misder: I never said vca was nOt a valid tool; I said this is a newbie game and not everyone knows to use it, so condemning me on my lack of use of it is faulty.

Responding immediately to Misder, still reading.

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Oh, hi guys >.>

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I was skidding by on an icy lake on my tush. Thanks for the game, guys!

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How can I improve? I know need to stop making wall posts; done and done. I was emulating other games when I made that PBPA... I thought that was scumhunting?

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Also, kudos to ant and Thor for making me sweat bullets

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Misder didn't vote the whole game >.>