Newbie 1087: Welcome To The Jungle (Game Over)

[Voidedmafia]

...I just replaced in, and I have no clue if we're still in RVS or not...

Ray's, Toxic's, and Twisted's (somewhat) tones from the start don't help in trying to figure that out.

[Voidedmafia]

No comment.

Anyways, I'm not quite sure what to make of this right now. I kinda understand the reasons on toxic, but I want to just think it through and not jump to a vote just yet.

[Voidedmafia]

A wise choice.

fence sitting is hardly a wise choice

Neither is blindly rushing into a vote when I'm not sure if I should even be backing said vote.

[Voidedmafia]

I

KINDA

understand. Much different from "I understand".

[Voidedmafia]

Oh, and it's "hypocrisy" -_-. I saw someoone put "Hippocracy", which is worse (We are NOT talking about Hippocrates or the Hippocratic Oath, people!)

Rayfrost does bring up a very good point, now that I look over the thread again, at least in regards to toxic's pressure, and because of said unnecessary pressure I will

vote Twistedspoon

. However, Twisted voted for toxic way back in ISO 7 (post 56), so your argument about voting is actually a little switched around, Ray. You've got the wrong information somehow.

Any defense, Twisted?

[Voidedmafia]

I don't think that particular claim is to be taken seriously.

[Voidedmafia]

What if Ray ends up scum? or twisted?

Twisted: even so, I would've still taken that claim with a grain of salt, considering where it was in the game.

[Voidedmafia]

I don't quite understand the syntax (word order) of what you just said. Could you try and make that a little bit more readable?

Also, by inspector I assume you mean cop?

[Voidedmafia]

How do you know we do? We could have only one or the other, or we could have both. It just depends on if we have a RB (roleblocker) or not.

[Voidedmafia]

How do you know we do? We could have only one or the other, or we could have both. It just depends on if we have a RB (roleblocker) or not.

Note: we could also have none of them. Read teh rules.

Oh. I somehow forgot that you could have an RB without PRs -_-.

But the rest of what you said is spot-on. Think, if you will, what if the scum is NOT any one of the people you've just suggested we vote? They could very well agree with you, and then they could very easily get us to lylo without really even trying because you did the work for them.

[Voidedmafia]

That may very well be true, but just brazenly going to try and lynch people without that much of a firm base to work on would just play into the scum's hands. I suppose it would be hasty to discredit it so out of hand, but what he's suggest just will not work at this stage of the game.

[Voidedmafia]

Ray, I'm not entirely confident it WILL work outright. I said " It's hard to do this first day and have it work, but discrediting the strategy entirely doesn't make sense." Which you must have read if you were talking about discrediting th strategy. I'm saying it works out sometimes to do that, especially right before a lynch or night kill.

You don't have to lynch to flip somebody, you wait for a scum kill

, or for enough real evidence to lynch them. And when you can't, when it's a tight game, sometimes you have to lynch to flip. This is not one of those cases, obviously. I can tell this is going to be a fun one.

And I will also remind you that no-lynching (what the bolded implies or seems to imply) is the LAST thing we want D1, regardless of whatever plans we may come up with.

[Voidedmafia]

Why is it worse to no-lynch on day one than any other day. No-lynching on day one would increase the chance of lynching a town because, most likely, you don't have a large amount of evidence first day.

If we wait for the NK, we would pretty much only get information that the scum would want us to get, because they could kill just about anyone at that point and leave the rest of us up to our noses in WIFOM. If we lynch before the NK, we can get info that we obtained that the scum would be hard-pressed to twist around for their own usage like the NK will be. Sure, the NK is still entirely up to them to choose and all, but I'd like the extra information, so long as said information isn't rushed.

As far as D1 evidence goes, we are just as likely to get large amounts of evidence then as any other day. We could very well have D1 be a bount of evidence, yet D2 could have literally nothing to work with.

Besides, if you read on after that comma, I said to actually try to gather real evidence, not that you should avoid lynching altogether. I'm saying it's a bad idea to rush directly into voting to see if somebody is mafia and going on association.

I do agree with the last sentence, but the part after the comma seems to be contradicted by what I bolded. You mention that we don't need a lynch to get a flip, then continue on to talk about getting enough information to get a lynch. Perhaps I'm seeing this differently than from what you're thinking, but those two parts just don't seem to match up.

It's not bad to think people are a little too chummy, but to rush into it without being sure is risky.

Of course. But to rush a no lynch (especially D1) is risky as well.

[Voidedmafia]

Well, if it's discussion that dissuades bad ideas, isn't that something good to talk about?

Also, Ajo, why in the world are you self-voting?

[Voidedmafia]

I wanted to know if it you could kill yourself.

yes, you can. You can self-hammer and self-vote. Some scum prefer to do so if they're the last one and have no reasonable chance of getting a victory.

However, at this stage, when you still have a chance at winning no matter your alignment? VERY anti-town. It's not a self-hammer or self-L-1 vote, but voting yourself like this without good reason is not a good idea (some even argue that self-voting like this with the exception of the pretty-much-dead-scum scenario I mentioned above is bad period).

Also, Dekes, just because there's no "NO U" or tunneling doesn't mean that its a town vs. town argument. They're just not doing either of those things.

As for 103, it seems Ajolin is content to throw Ray and/or Toxic as the lynches of choice based off of their argument, though his opinions might've changed since then.

As for your accusation, I'm simply focusing on dissuading Ajol and anyone else of that course of action. I tend to focus on one subject at a time, but please don't take it like I'm not trying to scumhunt.

Get your vote off, Ajolin. You're not helping anyone.

[Voidedmafia]

[quote="KittyMo"]I'm going to agree with Dekes that nothing Voidedmafia has done thus far has been particularly pro-town.

Please read and respond to the spoiler section below, Voided.

Spoiler: Voidedmafia Questioning

[1] Why did it matter so much to you whether or not the RVS was still going on? If it was still going, how would you have acted differently?
[2] Why are/were you afraid to take a stance on the Toxic case? Can you elaborate on what was difficult to understand?
[3] Why exactly is this so bad? Do you feel like it would make you look silly if you were voting someone and weren't sure why, or..?

You seem uncomfortable in the following posts discussing who

you

think is scum. Is there a reason for this I am missing? Do you feel that you are a bad scumhunter? Can you elaborate on your top scumreads, or strongest reads in general?

1.) It wasn't important in the grand scheme of things, but the last few pages (like pages 1-3) consisted of what seem to me to be just random arguemnts, hence my confusion as to whether or not RVS was over.

If it was still going on? I would've just noted that and waited. I'm not always amiable to RVS.

2.)Well, for one thing, it seems that Toxic's "O rly?" Reply to Ray's post where he said "scum found" to Tyler/me (#28) and his Subsequent sarcastic replies to Dekes and Ray were the initial posts that got attacked, as Twisted initially kinda did here and later endorses Toxic's wagon here, and Dekes attacks those posts Here. I personally didn't really agree with them, because it's just Toxic being witty (or trying, YMMV). Also, Twisted's remark about the confusion in #49, then moving to saying it's just messing with us here and THEN suddenly turning around 180^o in #54 just isn't right.

When Toxic says that Dekes and Twisted got on him for being silly, while Ray acted the same way and was left alone in #55, I did agree with him. After all, Ray acted like he knew who was who early on, and both he and Jindori got into a whole stint about acting like they were scum together for the rest of page 1, and no one called them out. Then, when Toxic acted in a similar way, Twisted and Dekes got on his case. I'm fairly sure RVS was still there when Toxic was posting those, so why act hypocritically like that?

So, Dekes tries to point out how Toxic is acting scummy or at the very least wrongly, yet his remarks fall sort because of said hypocrisy, as Toxic himself points out here.

In #61, Twisted points out how both Jindori and Toxic apparantly misquoted on purpose (though I'm not sure how. Twisted, explain that please). And then, in the very next post, Twisted himself points out what Ray and Jindori were doing near the end of page one, but acts like that doesn't matter in lieu of what Toxic did, even though Toxic arguably did less than Ray and Jindori as far as looking scum goes. Twisted both points out and disregards his hypocrisy at the same time, not even bothering to admit that he should've put those two on the spot for similar reasons.

Now, for Toxic's Sudden switch from sarcastic and joking to votes and seriousness, it does seem rather whiplash-y given how abrupt it is. But in retrospect, I'm not sure it was a bad idea. I think, at that point, keeping a sarcastic tone very well could've increased his risk of getting lynched. I could be wrong and it wouldn't have, but I still think it's a good idea.

Of course, someone would have to point out the abrupt change, and Jindori gladly does so. Toxic's post right after could probably either be seen as a weak deflection or a good counter to Jindori's accusation. Though, I will note that they both did essentially the same thing: Calling out the guy who just voted them or who just called them out.

Ajolin's vote I'm just going to chalk up to someone just coming in and randomly voting because he doesn't do anything to say whether or not he agrees with the case against Toxic when he votes, and only tries to correct Twisted on his usage of Latin (and by the way, Twisted is right in that regards).

Later, Toxic explains his actions, which are understandable given that it was still RVS, and further accentuates Twisted's hypocrisy.

And then, when Ray Points out how Twisted was advocating another wagon while he kept his vote on Ray as just being wrong, Toxic weakly responds by saying here that his vote is on Toxic,

even though his vote was on Ray at the time that he posted the post that Ray quoted

.

By then, the Toxic wagon had been ignored, and I soon came to join this merry lot, but as you can see, there isn't a whole lot to the argument. Ray's posts later on in page 4 just continue to point out how Twisted is scummy (here, YMMV here, here, and here)

So,

Vote: Twistedspoon

, for hypocrisy and further actions that add on to you being scummy.

3.) To replace in, and just randomly lay down a vote without giving any semblance of a reason is, to me, pretty much one of the clearest signs of scumminess there is. ESPECIALLY if it would be a hammervote. Of course, I wouldn't have gotten anywhere close to a hammer if I had voted, but I wasn't about to jump in with guns ablazing unless I had previously read the topic and could articulate why I was voting.

Also, jumping in, voting, and saying "I'll explain later" is VERY scummy. More so if the lynch is VT.

Back to the game:

Ray, a joke dayvig post isn't helping, and I was trying to get people away from both the whole lynch setup plan and what i percieved to be an advocation for a no-lynch today by Ajolin.

Ajolin is just piddling around more than I am, even if you exclude this post.

Dekes, I was going to ask how having townreads equates to having no reads, but Ray beat me to it.

[Voidedmafia]

If you haven't heard of a vigilante, I suppose you might not have played a lot of big matches.

A vigilante is usually a town PR that allows them to kill one other person, regardless of alignment, during the night. It's usually one-shot, I believe.

A dayvig is the same thing, except during the day instead of at night.

Ray: Uh, what question?

[Voidedmafia]

It reads like new-ish town that's trying too hard to me. Not town in of itself, but town due to the fact I feel the effort behind it and the motivation behind it is sincere.

Believe that if you wish, though I do object to the thought that I'm a newbie.

also:

Ray, a joke dayvig post isn't helping, and I was trying to get people away from both the whole lynch setup plan and what i percieved to be an advocation for a no-lynch today by Ajolin.

So, Vote: Twistedspoon, for hypocrisy

and further actions that add on to you being scummy.

Now here's a man of clear words. Can you point out these further actions, please?

Well, if you actually bothered to look at the quotes from Ray I linked, there's your answer -_-.

And Kitty asked me for elaboration on what I thought of the whole Toxic argument, and I gave it. You also asked (well, told) me to scumhunt, and I just did. If you would like me to give my reads, you can ask a little bit nicer.

And, mind telling me where exactly the momentum for my wagon is coming from? Only vote on me is yours.

[Voidedmafia]

Well, if you actually bothered to look at the quotes from Ray I linked, there's your answer -_-.

And Kitty asked me for elaboration on what I thought of the whole Toxic argument, and I gave it. You also asked (well, told) me to scumhunt, and I just did. If you would like me to give my reads, you can ask a little bit nicer.

And, mind telling me where exactly the momentum for my wagon is coming from? Only vote on me is yours.

I don't want quotes by Ray. I want to hear it from you and in your own words. And keep it concise, please.

Yes, I'm not asking people in a game of mafia to scumhunt, I'm telling them to. Dealwithit.

If three people were voting you right now, it would be already a wagon and not momentum.

1.) Hypocrisy in going after Toxic while not going after Ray for similar reasons, and either continued ignorance of said hypocrisy or complete disregard of attacking Ray until he had other posts to attack Ray on.
2.) Weakly deflecting Ray's accusation about him not voting Toxic by saying he was already voting for Toxic, yet he never actually voted for Toxic until AFTER he endorsed the wagon without voting him. Not to mention that the post that Ray quoted was BEFORE said vote switch.
3.) Going after Twisted much more than Ray before he had switched votes.
4.) Finding seriousness in a loljoke post meant to get reactions. Not a good point, but it's still something I think ought to be noted.
5.) Misusing mudslinging and misrepresentation to attack Toxic.
6.) Trying to discredit Ray's argument against him by calling him a joker and saying he didn't vote him. I'd also like to note that Twisted also uses the fact that Ray didn't vote until after those posts and after Ray got prodded by Twisted.
7.) Brushing off Ray's case against him despite Ray giving some good points that he ought to address.
8.) ignoring Kittymo's #118

Ask a little nicer, and I'll be happy to oblige you on dem reads. You be abrupt like that isn't going to make me any more inclined to do what you want me to do.

I have one vote on me, and one person who is expressing interest in voting me. You can say that's momentum, but it's certainly not momentum going towards my wagon and lynch.

Toxic, Xanatos: It probably does read like a re-hash, but sometimes cases against others just read like that.

[Voidedmafia]

anyways, i still think toxic is scum, even after his last post omgus of me where he doesn't even say why he thinks I'm scummy

It looked more like he was trying to give one last explanation for why you were wrong in your case against him. Not to mention that he's only impled that you were scum once, and never outright said you were the scum.

the things he said...
I just can't buy the excuse

It makes no sense for town

Me or Toxic?

If you mean Toxic, it makes sense to me for town to say that.

If you mean me, do you have anything to say about my case and later summation of my points against you?

I'd wager my (game)life that toxic will be flipping scum

I'd wager that you'll be flipping scum. Toxic'll flip town.

I agree with David Xanatos. I don't like how he's dropped off the radar.

gah

I posted just yesterday. How is that dropping off of the radar >_>

balme my timezone if you'd like.

I'll balme it indeed <_<

Beside, I just gave IMO a pretty good case against you, and you pretty much were ignoring it by not being here. There's no reason for you to just not show up like that, and you didn't have V/LA, either.

[Voidedmafia]

Also, Twisted's remark about the confusion in #49, then moving to saying it's just messing with us here and THEN suddenly turning around 180^o in #54 just isn't right.

well it is right

the post before I voted had toxic saying 'two wrongs make a right guys'
no they don't toxic
I voted for him then

And you're a hypocrite for doing it, by not advocating the same accusations (sans the tu quoque argument) against Ray in the process.

Twisted himself points out what Ray and Jindori were doing near the end of page one, but acts like that doesn't matter in lieu of what Toxic did, even though Toxic arguably did less than Ray and Jindori as far as looking scum goes. Twisted both points out and disregards his hypocrisy at the same time, not even bothering to admit that he should've put those two on the spot for similar reasons.

toxic mudslinged simple as

Where?

and it's hardly hiopcrisy. I never misquoted or made remarks that only scum would know of myself

Hypocrisy.

HYPOCRISY!

Spell it right!

Also, that's not what I'm calling you a hypocrite for. Thank you for completely ignoring the reasoning of the main part of my case against you, and for furthering my thinking of you as scum by trying to strawman here.

I can be quite aggressive when I think i have a lead when I'm scumhunting. Some players interpret that as scum flailing or somesuch but that doesn't do them any favours usually. Especially not when I'm town

b'duh?

[Voidedmafia]

*sigh*

Look, if you're going to completely ignore WHY I'm calling you a hypocrite, at least say it out loud.

[Voidedmafia]

Kitty: Eh, I guess once you asked for my stuff of Toxic? *shrugs*

also, I've played 6 games, 2 completed (Newbies 10060 and 1065), 4 ongoing. I'm alive in all but one (my mini normal). Of the two completed, one I played all the way through as town, the other I replaced in as scum (Zor was in the replaced-in game, so that pretty much made me lose)

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP: That's Newbie 1060, btw, not 10060.

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP2: And Newbie 1064, not 1065. -_-

Note to self: Don't try to rush these kinds of posts when you need to be getting to school.

[Voidedmafia]

Your excuses are as stupid as what you just pulled.

Ajolin, you're equally as stupid by Hammering wihtout letting Twisted claim OR giving any reasonable reason to even vote him in the first place.

[Voidedmafia]

Kitty: I feel like I've seen that before...

Jindori: I don't care about personality. I do care about what you just did.

Given how Ajolin has been playing so far, I guess I shouldn't exactly be surprised to see him lynch like that. But that supposed "trap" you made, jindori, was a very bad move.

Dekes: I'm not upset about the lynch, I'm upset about how quickly the last two votes came in to lynch him, especially since he didn't get to claim.

In any case, Jindori and Ajolin are now at the top of the list for scum.

[Voidedmafia]

...

Your rather...excited attitude over your probable lynch tomorrow and what is coming tomorrow are actually rather disturbing. And to me, makes no sense at all.

[Voidedmafia]

Even then, you still should've let him claim by stating that you'd hammer. At the very least we'd probably know what his role is, and at best we would have more time in the day to look over who could be scum.

The latter's not always the best choice (or

A

choice, for that matter), but I think we might've been able to squeeze some more out of this day.

[Voidedmafia]

Ray, you do have a point that it could be just newbtown and all, but look at what he's said after the hammer. It's pretty obvious that his main reason for doing it was pretty much for his own lulz. No one in their right mind should be THAT hopeful for their lynch, unless they're just desperate to get out of it, and Ajolin was in no such position when he hammered.

Vote: Ajolin

, and I hope you'll do better with your explanation this time.

Kitty: Well, looks like the threat of you being the NK is over for now. Mind giving us those reads Dekes asked for?

Jindori, anyone else: You, too. Top two scumspects.

As for me, my top 2 were Ajol and Jin, like I said yesterday, with Ajol being #1 and getting my vote.

[Voidedmafia]

Ray, you do have a point that it could be just newbtown and all, but look at what he's said after the hammer. It's pretty obvious that his main reason for doing it was pretty much for his own lulz. No one in their right mind should be THAT

hopeful for their lynch

, unless they're just desperate to get out of it, and Ajolin was in no such position when he hammered.

[quote="Ajolin]Well, if he flips town I get lynch,

which I really hope won't happen,

especially considering how much trouble a few of you were going through getting evidence for his case. I also know, however, that what happens next should be fun to watch.

...wat?[/quote][/quote][/quote]
*sigh* I hate it when I misread things.

Correction: Hopeful for the NK.

Ray: Getting rid of an active town decreases the likelihood of said town turning their eyes on him. The fact that Twisted flipped cop just sweetens the deal.

...

Then again...beyond that, I can't really think of why because that would also draw the eye of nearly every other player in the game, or at least more than one. I just think that the hammer was way to oppurtunistic and devoid of any form of prior thinking (disregarding later defense, just think of when he actually voted) to be townish in any way.

[Voidedmafia]

Also I think we should look at which player got killed Dekes. What does this tell you, it says that scum was trying to set me up. My active lurking near the end of day 2 was because my computer broke down and bieng watched by a teacher is nerve racking. You can notice how my posting pattern changed when I said my comp broke down as well.

Anyway i think i will give a reading on Voided. I don't really trust voided that much. Voided just seems to be going for low hanging fruit (aka ajolin and I). Also he pushed the case on twisted the hardest, yet is outraged when twisted is voted off. Saying that twisted is almost certain scum and then claiming to want to keep him in longer. If he was certin scum why have hesitations about twisted being voted. Also another fact dekes brought up this. Look who died, by killing dekes you would of gained the most out of everyone. Suspicion is cast on me it's impossible for dekes to bring up the case again. It's just a win win for you.

Edit also ray i was posting my opion but my teacher caught me and i was ninjaed by you 4 times. The bad thing is i have to print this off a redo all the spelling errors nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

ray summed up what I think about this post quite nicely.

Ray:

*sigh* I hate it when I misread things.

Correction: Hopeful for the NK.

Ray: Getting rid of an active town decreases the likelihood of said town turning their eyes on him. The fact that Twisted flipped cop just sweetens the deal.

...

Then again...beyond that, I can't really think of why because that would also draw the eye of nearly every other player in the game, or at least more than one. I just think that the hammer was way to oppurtunistic and devoid of any form of prior thinking (disregarding later defense, just think of when he actually voted) to be townish in any way.

Can you point to how he's "hopeful for the NK" and how that would be a scumtell if he was? If he can be NK'd, he's town.

If he wanted to get rid of an active town, wouldn't he have made sure he at least had some semblance of reasoning rather than going "HERPDERPLOLHAMMER" in order to have a modicum of not-sacrificial play? I really don't see it coming from scum.

Precisely my point: it's too conspicuous. The opportunism is counteracted by the fact it's an attention getter. It would be an opportunity if he could've one it without much suspicion. The lack of prior thinking reads more town than scum to me. Think about it this way: scum plan their moves ahead of time and try to avoid suspicion. Town improvise and to an extent don't want to be suspected but are on the whole more busy searching for scum. Town won't have plans and setups on d1: the lack of premeditated hammering just doesn't seem like the caution scum would put in their game, especially new-scum.

...no...

Perhaps he's wanting to do a sacrificial play?

It's entirely possible for scum to wing it just as much as town does, though town does wing it more often.

[Voidedmafia]

I was building a case off of your actions T1, not a misquote.

Is there anything else that you have against me?

[Voidedmafia]

Xanatos is just lurking, so he's null till he gives more stuff out.

Kitty...you're REALLY got to start doing more. You're not a suspect right now, but if you keep up what you've done D1 and you'll rise.

Ray: Nothing speaks out as scum so far.

Toxic: Town so far. I haven't seen much that's dissuaded me from that yet.

So, that just leaves Jindori. ISO #34 is, like you said, full of absolute bs, he never really gave reasoning for voting twisted either (except for pressure, which imo is lame without follow-up), and his plan on D1 for lynch set-ups was just bad, bad, bad. His supposed "ploy" for the l-1 vote just doesn't sit right with me, either. His later statement of shock at the hammervote follow-up could be genuine enough, I suppose.

also, Toxic was pointing out how bad Twisted was doing in regards to my argument. Twisted was completely ignoring what my case was in the first place, and Toxic also called him out on it. And now you just did nearly the same thing I did to Ajol, except it's a misrep instead of misquote. Not cool at all.

unvote, vote: Jindori

Ajol: So you didn't hammer Twisted without letting him claim?

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP:

Tasky, you might want to remove the night symbol on the marker for the thread.

[Voidedmafia]

And that was the misquote, what I didn't do. I never said I didn't hammer Twisted, don't twist my words. You said "[ajolin] could just be newbtown, but", so that means that the hammer was was possibly just a mistake or such on my part. The basis for your case comes in after the "but", because you're explaining that even if the hammer wasn't scummy, what I said was. You proceeded to misquote me and say I was hopeful for my own lynch.

Then don't say you didn't do anything yesterday.

No it doesn't, not necessarily. It just means I would've accepted that it was a mistake, though I would've argued about that for awhile.

what you said sure looked scummy to me.

Yes, I misquoted you and corrected myself. Even then, you probably shouldn't be hopeful for the NK, since scum could probably kick up more WIFOM with the death of someone else.

[Voidedmafia]

You didn't correct yourself, I corrected you. And I never said that I didn't do "anything yesterday", I said I didn't do what you accused me of. Again, I'm going to tell you to quit twisting my words Voided.

You pointed out where I was wrong. I corrected myself by changing it from lynch to NK. If you had asked or stated that it was supposed to be NK, then you would've corrected me.

Perhaps what you said wasn't as scummy as I was making it out to be. But it'll be an unremovable stain for you in this game.

And I ask again: Other than this spat about the hammer and what you may or may not have done T1,

what else do you have against me?

Voting me mainly (if not purely) because I'm attacking a bad area to attack is not enough to reasonably support a vote.

[Voidedmafia]

I like how you don't address my other point.

What's there to address? I've conceded the point.

I'm voting you because you are trying to bring me down even though you have no case, and because when I pointed out that you had no case, you made a "correction."

I have no case NOW, mind. Now we're just arguing something that might be needed to be set aside at this point.

You didn't say I had no case at that point, either. You just pointed out that I quoted you as being hopeful for your lynch when in reality you were just hopeful for the NK.

Also because you keep trying to make arguments off of things I never said, which I addressed both times in the "twisting my words" posts I made, but you never mentioned after the fact.

Sometimes cases are made off of what others haven't said, not what they have said. However, I've been shown that such is not the case, and have dropped the point.

P.S. I'd like to mention that, while the "correction" about the NK could be true, it seems a bit fishy to me. You made it a point that I was excited for my lynch, but you say that either you misread it, or made an error when typing the post.

Former.

The second seems more unlikely to me, and the first makes the fact that you stayed on my case a bit (a while after the correction you voted for jin) even though I wasn't doing what you said your reasoning for my case was anyway.

B'duh? (my new reaction to anything that doesn't make much sense)

Your next two posts are also "b'duh?" worthy because I'm not sure just what you're correcting.

Also, what other reads do you have on people? It does you no good to keep hounding me and ignore everyone else. I'm still waiting for Jindori to reply to my accusations that I made in my vote post for him.

[Voidedmafia]

I didn't relise they were questions to me.

Well, if someone puts a case up against it, the natural (and usually automatic) reaction is to go out and reply and prove the case wrong.

But if you look at the argument from another view not your tunnel views lol you may be able to see the way i see things.

Tunnel views? Excuse me?

I find it intreasting how you ignore the way i pointed out the connection between toxic and david. Anyway there was a diffrence between the ray was acting and toxic was acting.

That was just Toxic agreeing with David from my PoV, nothing more. Why do you think that that particular interaction is notable?

The key thing was toxic was acting like he knew more. he seemed smug and like he had power not the way a new town should be acting. Thats why i veiw toxic as scum.

Yet it was quite obvious that he was acting under the premise of RVS, so why would that necessarily make him be scummier?

Also voided misquotes are way scummier than a misrep, a misrep might be due to someone thinking diffrent and not even thinking of a posiblity. While a misquote is an obvious attempt at making someone else look scummy. I admit my plan was a bad move but i was basicly copying what i saw another player do in another game i was reading. I can't give you the link cause it's an ongoing game. But it saved the life of a town player, here it back fired.

Maybe so, but misreps can be just as bad as misquotes in regards to lynches (note I'm NOT talking about relative scumminess, just in regards to making lynches happen).

You mean the whole lynch setup plan you had?

[Voidedmafia]

Funny how your two top suspects came from that list through.

That can happen, it just depends on how the game rolls.

Also it wasn't toxic agreeing with his point of view he used it as his reason to vote twisted with out supplying a reason of his own. That my friend is two diffrent things.

I'll give you that one. it's true that he didn't do much else but vote on Twisted because he was under the rader, which is scummy in my book because I don't really endorse Lynch All Lurkers.

Also, if that wasn't what you were referring to, then what WAS it that you meant?

[Voidedmafia]

...I'm STILL not sure what you're talking about.

[Voidedmafia]

You are making absolutely NO sense. Start making sense.

Start by replying to #303, excluding what you've already replied to.

[Voidedmafia]

Well, if someone puts a case up against it, the natural (and usually automatic) reaction is to go out and reply and prove the case wrong.

I didn't see much of a new case just things i already anwsered and your point of view on my anwsers.

It was still a case, and ignoring cases can be seen as scummy.

But if you look at the argument from another view not your tunnel views lol you may be able to see the way i see things.

Tunnel views? Excuse me?

Basicly me saying your not looking at the bigger picture. Not taking in the fact both me and ajolin could be town. I may just of misread your posts through.

I don't see it that way at this point. I do have to admit that Ajol can't be scum due to the arguments presented for that, but that doesn't clear you.

As for everyone else, I've asked them questions and have asked them to give reads, yet no one has answered.

The key thing was toxic was acting like he knew more. he seemed smug and like he had power not the way a new town should be acting. Thats why i veiw toxic as scum.

Yet it was quite obvious that he was acting under the premise of RVS, so why would that necessarily make him be scummier?

When asked do you know something more his response didn't seem townie to me. I mean yes there's a chance a joke but think. Would town make that sort of joke, the i know more than you sort. It seemed to be suggestive but not evident enough. It's pretty much worthless on it's own but add on the david vote a pattern seems to be drawn in my mind.

I think I could see a townie doing that, though not often.

But where is this connection? I don't know about you, but I'm just not seeing it.

Also voided misquotes are way scummier than a misrep, a misrep might be due to someone thinking diffrent and not even thinking of a posiblity. While a misquote is an obvious attempt at making someone else look scummy. I admit my plan was a bad move but i was basicly copying what i saw another player do in another game i was reading. I can't give you the link cause it's an ongoing game. But it saved the life of a town player, here it back fired.

Maybe so, but misreps can be just as bad as misquotes in regards to lynches (note I'm NOT talking about relative scumminess, just in regards to making lynches happen).

anwsered

Where?

You mean the whole lynch setup plan you had?

Admit that was tunnel thinking on my part making me hypocritcal when i said it about you.

Uh...sure?

[Voidedmafia]

Very well.

everyone else: CMON, PEOPLE! GET IN HERE!

[Voidedmafia]

@David #315: Yes

@Jindori #316: How is he a tool again?

@David #317: Ray's #319 answers this well enough.

@Jindori #318: Just what, exactly? IIRC, you've only got him for the whole "I know more than you" spiel from D1's RVS in our back-and-forth.

@Ray #321: To expand on this: EVERYONE needs to either give out their top two scumreads after their voted person (if you have already given ample and GOOD reasoning for your vote) AND/OR explain as best as you possibly can why you're voting said person, even if it means rehashing an argument you've already given (if you have NOT given ample and good reasoning for your vote. You all that're silent don't help the town at all.

@David #323: Not good enough. If you've really got to study for this test, then study. But I want to see content next time you post, or your null read's gonna dip straight down to being scummy before you know it.

[Voidedmafia]

Is that at me or Ray?

[Voidedmafia]

Yep even through english is my first language i missed alot of school cause of certain circumstances.

Which, of course, means you can't learn English any more, right? Right?

I'm more satisfied with Jin's lynch now. Toxic's definitely come ahead as the better man here.

[Voidedmafia]

That said, I'm starting to doubt my jindori distaste here. I'm especially not liking voidedmafia's recent posts re: the toxic situation. It really reads like he's sheeping me

*finds a sheep transformation potion, drinks it, then rubs against your leg, bleating all the while*

but trying to lead the lynch to jindori over david.

David is, again, too lurkish, and therefore too null, to really get anything. Yes, he reactions to be asked for content could be seen as scummy, and yes, he's been lacking in regards to content, but I want to wait to see if he can actually pull a good, content-full post after he's done studying for that test/exam before I go any farther on him.

Voided: explain whether you think both are scum and why you disagree / agree with me on the matter.

Toxic's town, Jin's scum. And excuse me if you think that I'm sheeping again, but Toxic pretty much summed up most of my thoughts as to their back-and-forth here. I mean, if you really want me to do better, I can try, but Toxic's #355 is where it's at in regards to lynching Jin.

What do you think are particularly good points by toxic in the debate?

The aformentioned #355.
Paragraph 3 in #332 is also a good point, and Jin's reply to that point in #333 was weak as hell, not to mention strawmanning (or whatever would be appropriate).
Rightfully pointing out that you, ray, weren't hit as much for joking around D1 than he, Toxic, was by Jin. In fact, Jin actually was joking along with you.
AtE-ing what Toxic said in all caps in #334, which isn't worth anything at all since he only did it once.

or you have any opinions that

aren't

already being stated by me? Seriously.

Implying I've always agreed with what you said and never gave my own opinions. Seriously, now.

Wow, this entire thing is just tragic. It makes me want to cut out my eyes so I don't have to read it.

Deal. I read it and I'm not bleeding out of my eyes.

I have an idea. Scum usually don't vote for scum buddies unless they think the scum buddy will be lynched, when they'll try to bandwagon to "confirm" themselves.

Or they could start a wagon on their partner based on actions that they've done that actually are scummy. Would that lead to them "confirming" themselves?

We have two potential scum teams. I'm not picking a side yet, because obviously shit's going down hardcore and I want to be sure before I vote either way.

What about you, me, or Deathkitty? (And yes, I will call you that because it's an awesome name)

Better still, Jin has a point. Why ARE we even bringing up scumteams at this point? Sure, we have interactions that could possibly point us in the right direction, but we have nothing that is really definite enough.

[Voidedmafia]

uh, no I didn't. In fact, I'm objecting to bringing up scumpairs at all. Stop that.

[Voidedmafia]

Jin, what the hell are you talking about with whatever didn't get cut off? Just where is he talking to others outside the game?

[Voidedmafia]

After some consideration, I suppose I should at the very least rethink my stance on Jindori. I do feel that he has made scummy moves (and I've mentioned those scummy moves already; I'll link if you really want me to), but his play as of late has been better.

With that in mind, I'll

unvote

. But people seriously need to get in here. And Xanatos, I'm pretty sure your test wasn't this late.

[Voidedmafia]

He said he was out of school, to which I replied to the effect that being out of school doesn't ean you can't keep on learning English. Saying otherwise would be stupid.

[Voidedmafia]

Jin: Yeah.

Ajol: Today, I've only accused you or Jin. Just how is that "everywhere"?

Jin, again: What exactly of his posting made you change your mind?

[Voidedmafia]

-_-.

You REALLY don't quite get how it works, do you? (Note this isn't meant to be a slight)

Even if it's just a statement, you're still supposed to try and prove how it's wrong, or admit that he's right, NOT just go "loluropinionz" and leave it. If you do that, you could very well leave cases piled up against you because they're "just your view on things" and then you're lynched before you can do anything (or at least put at L-1).

Also, not everything that you're going to need to reply to is going to be nicely marked with a question mark. I can't tell you what you're supposed to or not supposed to reply to, that's your job, but labelling both what I presented against you and what little Ray has presented against (btw, I mean quantity, ray, not quality) as "just our opinion" and not trying to do anything about it isn't going to do you much good.

NOw, start thinking of some defense, and get started on presenting it.

Ray: "A rebuttal", I guess?

[Voidedmafia]

Get me more interested and i will.

"I can't actually come up with are buttal, so I'm going to say it's your opinion and hope people don't call me out on the lack of any form of defense"

Seriously, Jin. You aren't helping yourself.

Vote: Jindori

[Voidedmafia]

Ajol, why are you unvoting me?

[Voidedmafia]

You find the fact that Jin isn't even trying to defend himself not scummy at all, or at the very least anti-town?

[Voidedmafia]

Well, let's think on this.

Twice today Jindori has ignored arguments from two different people because "they're just your view on things" or something along those lines. Though Jin did eventually respond to my argument, he has not even tried to rebuke Ray's argument for pretty much no reason whatsoever. If he had just given some semblance of a counterargument, I wouldn't even bother with this point and deal with how he responds, but just sitting there acting like arguments against him aren't arguments is doing him no good at all.

[Voidedmafia]

Well, Ajol, for the most part.

[Voidedmafia]

He's right. -_-

I suppose you thought you were the one who put him at L-1 and not me? Or what was that, anyways?

[Voidedmafia]

All these multiple posts with the information scattered between them makes my head hurt -_-

[Voidedmafia]

Because

Ray was pointing out EXACTLY what you WEREN'T doing, and I was doing likewise.

I understand you'd be suspicious of sheeping, but really, that point's moot.

Also, why the hell do you have to be at L-1 to even THINK about arguing in the first place?!

[Voidedmafia]

...

the hell?

WHY THE HELL DID YOU JUST HAMMER WITHOUT HIM CLAIMING AGAIN?!

[Voidedmafia]

And you realize that you may have just set the town up to lose because tomorrow is Lylo?! Seriously, did you even THINK this time?!

[Voidedmafia]

...*facepalm*

If you can't bother to try and make this fun for EVERYONE, then replace out during the night. I cannot enjoy this game fully if someone like you comes in and ruins the experience.

[Voidedmafia]

EBWOP: Also, I've raged harder.

[Voidedmafia]

AJOLIN, YOU ARE ONE OF THE MOST STUPID PLAYERS I HAVE EVER SEEN! AND I WILL TYPE IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE IT DESERVES IT!

Vote: Ajolin

.

CONGRATZ, YOU DUMBASS (pardon the language, Tasky)! YOU JUST LOST THE GAME FOR YOUR SIDE!

*insert Manfred Von Karma .gif of him banging his head on the wall of his stand repeatedly*

[Voidedmafia]

Voided, that last post was unnecessarily offensive. Ajolin's a newbie, he's learning.

It's appropriate to gloat, but being rude to other players in the way you were with that post is highly, highly frowned upon. Don't. Do it. Again.

If being blunt as I did there (and doing what he did to himself, i.e hammering without a claim) would mean he woke up and realized that doing quickhammers like that is insanely stupid, highly illogical, and VERY much against what he's supposed to be doing in the first place, in my eyes it would be an appropriate rebuke. Oh, and please don't say I'm gloating because I am so far away from that it's not even funny. We may have won thanks to Ajol's actions, yes, but this game was far from satisfactory in regards to whether I enjoyed it.

Perhaps the caps and the dumbass comment were unnecessary, but regardless of whether or not this is a newbie game, you do

not

quickhammer like that, much less 2 days in a row, and ESPECIALLY without having any good reason for even choosing such a path in the first place. If ajol had given good reasons for either hammer (or, even better, both hammers) prior to doing so instead of saying afterwards "Well, he's basically getting lynched" or "well, he's getting tied up with me and that's bad," I would still be mad about the double quickhammers, but not as mad as I am now because he could at least articulate and explain why he was doing so in the hammerpost and can back it up.

Ajol, just please don't do that again when someone's at L-1 and it's not close to the deadline, at least when you're not scum. You'll just play right into the scum's hands like you just did here. I'm sorry if that post was offensive, and I probably should've waited until I was less angry about what you did, just please tell me you won't do something like this again.

[Voidedmafia]

Did you really think I was scum, when it came down to it?

[Voidedmafia]

It was also apparent to me by these two posts that ajolin didn't care about the game at all and was going to make no reasonable attempt to keep himself from getting lynched in the case that he was actually a town-aligned player. It was a really bad play, and it ruined the game.

I was starting to get suspicious of you, RayFrost, when you let ajolin off on his first quick-hammer, even though I kinda agreed with you at first. By the time ajolin hammered the second time, though, I figured that he was either the most arrogant scum I've ever seen or that the game was ruined fro town at that point, anyway.

I couldn't agree with these two paragraphs more.