Newbie 1136: DarthYoshi's Dystopia of Death (Fin--who won?!)

[Johhog]

I will post more once I get my role PM.

Hello amatuer, and an extra big hello to hiplop. I've missed you all those 10 minutes we were not in the same game. <3

[Johhog]

/confirm

Australian, eh? Swede here, it's 8:15 pm here, or as we say in Sweden, 20:15. Alright, enough fluff, I'll go reread.

[Johhog]

Well, I won't post one big catch-up post but I will post as I read and find interesting things (hopefully). Stay tuned.

[Johhog]

1) What alignment and role do you prefer, and why?

I like pro-town roles more, as I've a hard time lying and love to take out the bad guys.

2) Would you lynch lurkers?

Never. It's terribad to policy lynch a lurker, much better to wait for the replacing.

3) When lynching, do you rely on your gut or your analysis?

Nearly only gut, which makes me a highly unusual player. Still I usually catch scum. Basically I use gut to find scum and logic to convince others, because unfortunately "It's gut" is usually not an acceptable answer on why one person is scummy.

4) What is your stanch on using meta?

In non-newbie games with more experienced players it is nearly the only way to catch scum. In newbie games however it's possible to find scumtells that are null when they're coming from a more experienced player. There is however a risk that meta will backfire horribly and basically create a quick mislynch, as in [REDACTED].

[Johhog]

Oh, forgot the role part in the questions. Add this:

As for roles I'm not sure yet, I'm still fairly new. PRs is fun because you influence games more than as VT. It is however hard for me because you have to hide something, which I suck at. Therefore I suppose VT is my favourite role, as you can be completely honest.

[Johhog]

Page 2:

Also your Avatars look pretty similar to me, so if ConSpiracy should have a vote for his Avatar, why shouldn't you have one for yours?

Why do you seem too keen to jump on a RVS vote and question it immediately.

IGMEOY: BKWN

This is a strange post imo. Ibarra seems to quickly jump on a very innocent remark, which may even be a joke.

5) What's your timezone?
6) What is your posting style: A few lengthy posts or a lot of small posts?
7) How much do you expect to post in this game?

5) GMT+1, now during the DST GMT+2.
6) Many small posts, as you'll soon see.
7) At least a couple of times a day if I manage to find something interesting.

You don't bring people to L-1 less you really suspect they're scum. Up to L-2 is fine--and early wagons are encouraged to see how folks react. L-1 encourages hammers, accidental and not, and we do NOT want Day 1 end early even if we catch scum through RVS/RQS.

I don't agree. As long as they're rare, L-1 wagons can be quite good, and while you shouldn't put someone at L-1 without

some

suspicion you don't have to be willing to lynch them imo. That is in theory. In practice L-1 wagons are usually scummy (and by most players frowned upon) so unless you have a good reason for it, don't put someone at L-1 in a Newbie.

Hello, I'm new to this game... and I still don't know how to go about it(what to write, etc) I think I will be the least talkative among everyone, I can feel it already XD

And also, Soulblade, what a random reason to vote me. </3?

Hm, this post appears to be from someone who want to look at a newb (and also someone who cares a lot about what other people think about them), and I have no clue why.

Let's find that out.

Vote: Ghostlin

:goodwagoning:

It is because the IC's are supposed to help the newbies get accustomed to the game. The IC would then start to have a sense of reliability around him, and thus if you attack him, the newbies would turn towards you instead.
I'll keep my vote as it is.

You don't want to be accused much, do you?

It is because the IC's are supposed to help the newbies get accustomed to the game. The IC would then start to have a sense of reliability around him, and thus if you attack him, the newbies would turn towards you instead.
I'll keep my vote as it is.

I understand that point, and it is very, very wrong. Here is why: there are 9 players in the game, with roles assigned randomly. Ergo, everyone, IC included, has exactly 2/9 chance of being scum. So if IC does something that you would be suspicious of someone else for doing, be suspicious of him. Because on the case that he actually IS scum, the argument you just presented will win his happy ass the game. So don't think that way. Think along the lines of, Ghostlin is the most experienced player here, so he is the best at hiding that he is scum, therefore he is worthy of suspicion on the line of reasoning you just presented.

Also, I'm not saying that he is scum yet. At this point I don't know who is and who isn't. I'm just saying don't stand behind him on the basis that he is IC, because as far as determining whether or not he is scum, that don't mean jack.

:goodposting:

[Johhog]

Disagree. Off course having scum quickhammer means that we loose a townie with a high chance of a second one, but that means that we will lynch scum next day and possibly town at night, leaving town with at worst 4:1, at best 6:1. Coping with 4:1 with knowledge of a scumbuddy and still having the possibility of town PRs existing

with

information of two nights is a lot better than 2:9 with no information yet and only assured PRs.

But what if town quickhammers by mistake? I've experienced a game wherein a townie accidentally quickhammered and thus was lynched the following day. My point is that we should avoid going into L-1 just on a simple, "let's see how they react" to avoid accidents like what happened to the game I was playing in. We should only get someone to L-1 when we're sure that the target is suspicious enough to warrant a possible lynch.

And this is a lesson for every town: Do not quickhammer! If you are voting for somebody always check if he isn't accidentally lynched when voting.

I cannot stress this point enough. Always use the Preview feature. Mafiascum sadly doesn't have the notification for when someone ninja's you.

No, normally I post whenever I'm online and somebody else posts, so I do take a lot of the thread. That's in other forums of course.
And I got lynched in day 1 on other games as well, so I'm kind apprehensive about it.

It's fine to hate being lynched Day 1, but do not try to deter people from doing so with the promise of activity. Activity =/= Being Town

Hm, interesting exchange between Ibarra and ConSpiracy here, unfortunately I don't know what to think of it. There is however an anti-ninja feature.

Con's eagerness to promote folks to L-1 early seems to be partially dissonant to his 'Don't Quickhammer' stance. (Reasoning: L-1 increases the chance of quickhammering---reason why you avoid it in RVS.)

Day one is the most important day for newbie games. More scum blowouts happen from rushing the process than not.

Theam's stance seems to be more focused on survival (at least past Day 1) versus more important concerns--making sure town has enough information to go on, for instance

before

you get lynched is more important. In English: while you should fight against your lynch (if you're Town, you're fighting for the only confirmed townie in the game, if you're Scum, well...you don't want to lose) if you're VT,

don't be afraid to stick your neck out.

You may get lynched, but since bandwagon analysis is a BIG part of this game...

BKWM: Your argument is something of a logical fallacy why I could be scum, but it's RVS anyway. Also, if there's a 2/9 chance of being scum, there's a 7/9 chance of being Town, with at least a 1/9 of being a town PR in a 2x4.

Out of the things I've pointed out---the inclination towards self presevation is the MOST scummy, so I will:

Unvote.

Vote: Theam

I don't like this vote for some reason. It doesn't seem to warrant a vote.

Unvote.

Vote: Theam

theam?

unvote.
vote: ConSpiracy

lets start the L-2

This however is lolno. Reckless bandwagoning and omgusing.

Great discussion, I learnt a lot about voting and mafia games overall. Sorry I wasn't posting - I wasn't feeling well yesterday.

Fine, but a quick ISO tells me that he hasn't said anything particularly useful since. We need to get this guy to start contributing.

I'm trying to get an L-2 on him, which then hopefully we can pry an acceptable defense out of him, like I said earlier.

What is he supposed to say in his defence, as this seems to be merely a random bandwagoning vote?

After 3 pages, theamatuer is shady, Ghostlin is shady, AeRyung is shady and Soulblade is shady. Oh gosh.

[Johhog]

Page 4:

@Soulblade: if you want to look for people trying too hard to blend in, I would suggest people such as yourself or Morthas or paradox, who haven't posted enough for any sort of even semi-effective analysis. Although I will grant that it is too early in the game for that to be an effective argument, and that you have been posting, and that they have legitimate reasons for not posting. I am very actively scum-hunting, although granted, I am not too terribly good at it. Yet. That's what practice is for.

@theamatuer: you are at L-2 as well, good sir. So here is my opinion on you in hopes of hearing a satisfactory defense out of you: You seem to want to be dodging suspicion by pointing the finger at everyone else, and by attempting to get bandwagons going on everyone else, while at the same time, you are at L-2, and have not done

anything

other than barely acknowledge that you were voted for at all. If you weren't already at L-2, I would vote for you. As is,

IGMEOY, theamatuer

.

@AeRyung: I would side with Ghostlin in that you were being silly in not actually voting for me, but now I'm at L-2 anyway, so I would appreciate it if right now you used your vote elsewhere, so that we are ensured a full and in depth discussion on Day 1.

@Morthas&paradox: thoughts? even if you have no suspicions, you're opinions can only help us find the scum. when you get the time, paradox, no pressure. Enjoy your family time.

Aye, I like BKWM's posting and I like it much. He is as very town after 4 pages and I don't really see the case against him.

EBWOP
UNVOTE: AeRyung
VOTE: Morthas for only having one post.

Good call there I guess, but if it's intended to be a pressure vote you shouldn't have said that you voted him just because he only had posted once.

I said I find you suspicious because of your elaborateless reasoning as to why you voted for the people you did. But then again, there isn't much to elaborate without a good amount of info. Though, your last post has increased my FoS on you. You are quite aggitated by my post of suspicion, I sensed an irritation in your writing. Here are some reasons why I suspect you. First, you lost your composure to my FoS. Second, you revealed your "plan" (Why?). Third, when you said "unless you are scum, in which case feel free to get so pissed you cant type straight." It sounds like an attempted provocation, or alternitavely, a way to get FoS off of yourself, desperately.

I can see that being truth.
VOTE: BMW


I was going to point out that explaining your plan makes it loose it's effectiveness but there have been enough people who have already did so.

@Soulblade: if you want to look for people trying too hard to blend in, I would suggest people such as yourself or Morthas or paradox, who haven't posted enough for any sort of even semi-effective analysis. Although I will grant that it is too early in the game for that to be an effective argument, and that you have been posting, and that they have legitimate reasons for not posting. I am very actively scum-hunting, although granted, I am not too terribly good at it. Yet. That's what practice is for.

Trying to deflect, are we?


You are L-2 now, BMW.

OUCH what is this? All the votes on BMKW so far has been terribad.

To morthas: don't rely on your gut feelings, or at the very least don't tell anybody that. Try to set facts to go along your suspicions, since that gives a greater amount of believability to them. At the very least, that makes it look less like a scumtell.
...Actually, I'm screwing myself over here, aren't I?
Also, I'm creating bandwagons to help others get defenses, since I myself do not find anything suspicious about anybody YET. I'll be more aggresive later, for now I'll help at bandwagons, even myself's later to get more evidence.
Of course, that is if self-voting does not cause being Slew-By-Darth's-Sith-Dinosaur-Lightsaber (aka modkilled)

Wut?
Give me a quote about so i know what you are talking about please :/

This. Were you by any chance drunk when you posted that theamatuer?
[LATER EDIT: Wait, did he just say he wants to help on his own wagon? This is strange as hell, and I was almost going to write it off as newbtown behaviour, but I've fallen for that trick before and won't do it so quick again.]

[Johhog]

Not really feeling like completing the last five pages now, guess I'll do it tomorrow.

[Johhog]

Page 5:

AeR: Why haven't you upgraded your FoS on BK to a full vote yet?

I know that if I give good reasons for suspicion, the vote count would increase, resulting into a quick lynch, and with the possibility that he might actually be a townie who doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut, I'm a bit hesitant because this game is in it's early stages. Regardless, it comes down to his next post.

@BKWM: You haven't posted since there were two more votes on you. You posted regularly before, why not now?

@Everyone: I would like to know what everyone thinks regarding this matter, why he should be lynched, why he shouldn't. Being in depth would be appreciated.

You seem like you want the best of both worlds here, if BKWM flips town you wanna say "I told you it was too fast" and if he flips scum you wanna say "I told you he was scum".

Since most people(Ahem, paradox) have posted sufficiently I am going to ask
Who do you think is our scum? (Gut feelings are good too, some stances would be great).

I´ve read everything, the only thing that

seems

slightly suspicious to me is BKWM

Why is he slightly suspicious? If it's because you agree with someone, why are their reasons more valid?

Reasoning without evidence is not as valid as Reasoning with evidence.

Reasoning with false evidence is much less valid than reasoning without evidence. Explain WHY are their reasons valid.

QFT.

Con's eagerness to promote folks to L-1 early seems to be partially dissonant to his 'Don't Quickhammer' stance. (Reasoning: L-1 increases the chance of quickhammering---reason why you avoid it in RVS.)

First:

Call me CS dammit!

I hate the abb Con.
Secondly this is not dissonant. I think L-1s are good to test others, but I wanted to tell town that they should always check if they are hammering or not, just to be sure.

EBWOP: if you didn't notice, I voted for etanga (now Marthas). So no, I'm not that scared. But then again, excluding me, there are 5 newbies, just enough for a lynch. So you can't play too complex either, else the newbies just decide to lynch someone instead of trying to understand.

That is not what I meant. Reading back, I meant this:

So you are scared of being attacked

because

if you voted for the IC?

English is not my first language. I try to keep mistakes at a bare minimum, but it's hard when I'm not very good at English.
Anyways, you were scared as this shows:

It is because the IC's are supposed to help the newbies get accustomed to the game. The IC would then start to have a sense of reliability around him, and thus if you attack him, the newbies would turn towards you instead.

Seems scared to me. And that is a bad reason not to do it. Those five newbies aren't morons to protect their IC for something like this.

EBWOP(again): I just realized that theam was supposed to be me. Well, I am mostly trying to aid others in their attacks for now, since I don't seem to have anyone in mind.
So basically, I'm running a semi-aggressive/helping type of play, and I'll switch to aggresive once I have enough suspicions.

So you are giving yourself a free pass to bandwagon others without reasons?

Why are you trying to deter people from voting you by saying that you will post a lot. I find that suspicious.

Why aren't you replacing your RVS vote with a genuine one? I find THAT suspicious.

Good posting.

Actually, no. Selfvoting cannot help your goal, as you are supposed to play to your win condition.

As Morthas said, selfvoting as scum is sometimes useful. I once made an item about this in a game I IC'ed, let me look it up:

Spoiler: Self-hammering, good or bad

The answer should be simple, it is hardly ever good. Self hammering hinders own faction and mostly results in unbalanced win percentages due to the info town lost or mislynch missed. However, there are a few cases that self-hammering is more useful for the game. (I am talking about now crazy themed or special roled games. Off course there are more exeptions, but these occur most often)

Scum selfhammer

- A scum selfhammer is more often right than a town selfhammer. However, there is just one reason to selfhammer, to hinder town in their information. When should scum selfhammer? If it is already obvious that he will be lynched. Let's say scum A is at L-1 for a long time and sees no chance to evade the lynch. However, town wants to wait with the lynch till replacements caught up, till a quarrel was sorted out etc. The best thing scum A can do is self-hammering, since town will miss the catch-up post, the outcome of the quarrel etc. If player A knows he would be lynched already, there is no reason not to make it a little quicker.

Town selfhammer

- A town self hammer is purely to help the rest of the town and is only right when the game is slowly drifting towards a No Lynch. A No Lynch in newbies and mini normals occasionally helps town into MyLo, which should be followed with a No lynch in most games. I will show it a bit more organized:
newbie nine players
D1 lynch, 8 players
N1 kill, 7 players
D2 lynch, 6 players D2 no lynch, 7 players
N2 kill, 5 players N2 kill, 6 players
D3 lynch (game over if 3 mislynches) D3 no lynch (MyLo) 6 players
N3 kill, 5 players
D4 lynch (game over if 2! mislynches)

Why should town selfhammer? Because a (generally thought suspicious guy) lynch usually gives far more information to the rest of the town than a (generally thought townish guy) night kill. The wagon gives people information to think about.
That's all I can think of right now.

Who do you think is our scum? (Gut feelings are good too, some stances would be great).

Scum: Theam
Neutral/scum: Ibarra

Not enough reads for the others.

And I won't be able to be online tomorrow, my grandpa celebrates his 80th anniversary.

Some good points here.

yoyo guys. I know some of you from other games, but overall fairly new to you all. I've read the thread and all that jazz.

1) What alignment and role do you prefer, and why? Town PR is my favourite, then third party, then scum, and i really hate VT. Not much fun tbh
2) Would you lynch lurkers? Completely depends on the situation; if we can gain information from their death, then sure. But I am against policy lynches for the most part.
3) When lynching, do you rely on your gut or your analysis? A mix of both. I know in my mind what can't be true, and so gut definitely contributes to my play, not in a huge way, though.
4) What is your stanch on using meta? Very much against it, as I know I have been lynched many times due to "playing differently". My playstyle changes rather often, and its more based on my emotions at the time than my alignment.
5) What's your timezone? EST
6) What is your posting style: A few lengthy posts or a lot of small posts? Mix of both, though I have been trying to become more of a waller, but I do like being succinct and to the point; too many walls can be a VERY boring thing, and cause players to lose interest.
7) How much do you expect to post in this game? A lot.

VOTE: PARADOX for being hamtaro! Making me miss my childhood!

I haven't noticed much scum-behavior thus far, but BKWM is my top scum-spect, so im staying away from his lynch atm. TheAm to me seems townie, and quite honestly the reasons for the pressure on him are pretty bad. He looks to me like an inexperienced townie, rather than scum.

Huh? A RVS vote on page 5, why?

Welp.

Vote: BKWM

Meant to do this

Vote: BKWM

*sigh*. Why are you changing your mind now?

unvote

vote: theamatuer

<.<>.>
.................................................what?

WTF RAGE. What the hell is this?

unvote

vote: theamatuer

<.<>.>
.................................................what?

Congrats on your scum claim. Let me know how that works out for you.

But then Ghostlin decides to be as fucking scummy as possible. A bit quick on wanting to lynch Theam, right?

[Johhog]

Not prod-eligible, only a day since last post. Do you know about activity overview Stels?

[Johhog]

woo. Now just waiting for his fakeclaim and we can end this.

Is that a good idea? Because I'm not sure I want to hammer this. Is ConSpiracy, Stels or Soul ready to hammer?

[Johhog]

But if he claims, and he claims VT, we pretty much have to lynch him. We have to be sure someone wants to hammer before we force a claim. Personally I think he's shady after these 5 pages I've read, but not more than maybe null.

[Johhog]

Do you see hiplop? If now neither Stels or Soul is willing to hammer (we'll see though, I maybe is after my catch-up) there is no point in getting him to claim.

[Johhog]

I will btw be

very

busy tomorrow and on Sunday, I'm a local football (soccer) ref and there's a cup being played.

[Johhog]

Wow. I don't believe that JK claim at all. Seems like scum who desperately want to survive.

[Johhog]

And hello Morthas, I'm a SE too so we're 4 guys here to take care of you.

[Johhog]

@Johhog, if you can, can you go into detail why you don't believe his claim?

Because it was so obvious he would claim a PR when cornered. Sure, he can be a PR, but it's a low risk that's the case. Remember, scum always claim a PR if they are forced to claim.

[Johhog]

I don't see why we would have to out our real PRs, to me the claim seems like a obvfake. As I said, scum always claim a PR (they have to, VT claims get lynched) and we can't let them live because of that.

[Johhog]

Aw sorry for the fence sitting but imo I have a good reason for it. In my book either Ghostlin or Theam must be scum, and both almost can't be, that would be ridiculous.

[Johhog]

The point here is, I want to catch the scum first, to avoid a ML.

[Johhog]

The thing is, we can't look at your claim Ghostlin, because we know scum would claim a PR. Instead we have to look if you've been scummy or townish this game. Personally I have a null-scum.

[Johhog]

Also we would learn a lot from a Ghostlin town flip. At least one of hiplop/Theam would be scum (I don't think both).

[Johhog]

The thing is, we can't look at your claim Ghostlin, because we know scum would claim a PR. Instead we have to look if you've been scummy or townish this game. Personally I have a null-scum.

Fact is, you can't look at my claim at all due to the fact that an astounding amount of claims D1 should be lynched, even VT claims for purposes of confirmation.

Enough about theory. If I'm null-scum, who is scum scum?

That depends on the flip. If you're scum, Soul's replacement (forgot the name) probably is scum. If you're town, hiplop or Theam is scum.

[Johhog]

FYI it's scummy to express suspicion of the player you replaced. To me, if Ghostlin is scum, you are. If Ghostlin is town, hiplop or Theam is scum. As I said, we learn a lot from a Ghostlin lynch.

1) I think it's Theam.
2) No. I guess the SEs (which I think is me, Morthas, hiplop and ConSpiracy) will fill in for him.

[Johhog]

And I think paradox just wasn't interested enough, with multiple excuses for not posting and finally being replaced that points more to him being bored/uninterested than him being scum.

[Johhog]

Hey, sorry Stels! I guess we're 5 SEs in this game and... there are 2 ICs?

[Johhog]

It feels great to replace someone who posted nothing useful and merely parroted at the beginning of the Day before disappearing. /sarcasm, but I started reading back without knowing who I replaced, and even I'll admit that SoulBlade looked scummy. Ah gotta love life.

Hiplop's caught my eye as he has been VERY determined to get Ghostlin lynched, and it hasn't gone unnoticed. IDK how to multi-quote so excuse my supposed lack of evidence, but at one point, Hiplop said he'd love some people if they hammered Ghostlin, which seemed odd. BUT, I'm fairly certain Hiplop's town, I'm just curious as to why he's putting his neck out so much on Day 1. Maybe it's just me, but I would never be so gun-ho on Day 1, just because that's not how I play I guess.

Ghostlin's WIFOM was bad, but not nearly as bad as theamatuer's analysis list thing where he gave himself a 7/10 scum rating. Ugh, some people's kids. Amazingly, I think theam isn't scum ... just very very noobish and/or dumb.

AeRy has seemed very tentative for some reason. I'm keeping Johhog on my radar, simply because he replaced paradox who I was very wary of due to lack of input and blatant lurking for a bit.

Sorry for any stupidity btw, only my 2nd game (technically) and I don't deal well with big blocks of text. Especially since I just read through 13 pages :/.

Two questions:
1) Who's TM?
2) If Ghostlin dies, will he still be active in the thread performing his IC duties?

He's scum, and I know it. Which is why I'm going after him so hard, obviously.

1) Tm is TheaMateur, not sure why the nickname came about
2) No, but ConSpiracy and I (I think conspiracy at least) will be fine in teaching you, I'm a qualified IC and all that jibber jabber.

Glad to see you posting DH

Johhog is interesting, and he'd be my #2 scumpartner for Ghostlin. His latest post in general urks me to the max.

Just because I don't think the player I replaced was scummy? Cmon...

[Johhog]

Yeah, I know, I worded it badly. I mean 5 SE-eligible and 2 IC-eligible. Coming to think of it you're probably more than 2 IC-eligible though.

[Johhog]

Hm, possible scumteams I can see right now.

Ghostlin/DH-Star
hiplop/maybe Stels?
Theam/whomever, AeRyung?
hiplop/Theam

Fuck, that's not much. At least it's something.

[Johhog]

Stels, yes I'm fine with a Ghostlinlynch, as hiplop is only likely scum if he flips town. The list also was from like most to less likely.

[Johhog]

Ugh, this game is confusing and I'm getting paranoid, I see scum everywhere.

AeRyung, do you think you could sum up your case against ConSpiracy in a few sentences? Sorry if I'm a little slow, but I don't get the main reason why he's scum.

[Johhog]

Also, the reason why I took out the timezone part of the analysis is because Stels informed that scum can talk to eachother before the game starts, so that logic is out the window. But that's IF they talked before the game started.

Also, I see this as a weak scumtell, scum would want to act like they didn't know this.

[Johhog]

Hm, so buddying with hiplop? Will reread, and if you're right that is scummy indeed, but do you think it's enough to warrant a vote right now?

[Johhog]

You're right AeRyung, good catch!

Personally I think it would be better if we lynched Theam or Ghostlin today though, preferably Ghostlin.

[Johhog]

Ghostlin

's claim seems honest to me. His play matches a PR (more of a cop, though).

EXACTLY THIS. Why didn't I catch it earlier? Ofc he wanted to set up a solid cop claim for later but then he came closer to be lynched (and cop claims D1 usually get lynched) and decided to claim JK instead!

VOTE: Ghostlin

No hammering yet, let's wait at least a couple of days.

[Johhog]

If Ghostlin flips town have something like (from scum to town):

hiplop

Has attacked Ghostlin a lot, and his defence is mostly "Why would I get so much attention as scum?".

theamatuer

I have no clue what this guy is trying to pull off. I had this thought, what if he fakes his strange behaviour to look newbtown?

Stels

I know I'm the only one who thought it, but BKWM was very town. Stels was also town from the start, but his recent post seems... fabricated.

Morthas

Hard to read. Neutral I guess. Could post more content.

DH-Star

Soulblade was scum, DH has been neutral, but if Ghostlin flips town DH is likely town.

AeRyung

Pulls out the newb card a lot and has a couple of scummy posts, but overall town.

ConSpiracy

He is calm, logical and has well reasoned posts. In this game I can't see any obvtown, but ConSpiracy is the nearest thing we'll come to that.

If Ghostlin flips scum:

DH-Star

Soulblade undoubtedly had a connection to Ghostlin, and if Ghostlin flips scum DH is looking scummy. He doesn't seem to wanna vote Ghostlin either.

Stels

See my above read of him.

Morthas

See my above read of him.

Theamatuer

Impossible that we would catch both scum D1. Probably just a VI.

AeRyung

See my above read of him.

ConSpiracy

See my above read of him.

hiplop

If Ghostlin flips scum hiplop is obvtown, I can't imagine a D1 bus here.

[Johhog]

And yeah, I want everyone to make your reads if Ghostlin flips town or scum, as that would change a lot.

[Johhog]

Ouch grammar fail. Oh well.

[Johhog]

Hm, might try that.

[Johhog]

Bah, fight and don't give up! Day 1 tends to be the longest day.

[Johhog]

Um, yeah. You AeRyung and DH-Star. But no, this is a normal newbie game. Usually it tends to be this much SE's after some replacements, and I don't think everyone is null if you look closely. I mean, do you think Ghostlin is as much town as for example AeRyung?

[Johhog]

Indeed I did. What's your point?

[Johhog]

AeRyung calls me scum...

Oh, nah, I didn't agree with that part, only with the "possible buddying with hiplop" part. As I said we don't have any real obvtown, and that's tbh the only thing I can find against you, so you're still most town here.

[Johhog]

But I never said I thought you were scum with hiplop.

[Johhog]

Basically that two guys don't suspect each other, agree with each other etc.

Can be both two scum buddying, one town one scum buddying and two town buddying.

[Johhog]

Anyways, it's scummy that you think I am town although you think I am buddying up to hiplop.

Nope. But if you don't want to continue that discussion for now, fine for me, as I can't see the problem with it. And tbh I thought town was buddying too.

[Johhog]

Said what as a defence? Sorry again, stuff is happening in another game (can't give you more details, no discussion about ongoing games).

And what option am I keeping open?

And what are you implying? That I'm scum bussing Ghostlin or that I'm scum knowing that Ghostlin is town? hiplop, clearly you always think I'm scum.

[Johhog]

Neither am I.

The thing is, I said what I was going to do if he flips town or if he flips scum, but you didn't. To me it looks like it's

you

who is sure of his alignment.

[Johhog]

It's very good if you get night killed for one. Also, it makes it harder for scum as they can't be as sneaky.

[Johhog]

Lolwut? Not nice to scum? How good.

[Johhog]

That's pretty unlikely. I mean, Ghostlin is an IC, he wouldn't look this scummy if he was town, right?

[Johhog]

Neither am I.

The thing is, I said what I was going to do if he flips town or if he flips scum, but you didn't. To me it looks like it's

you

who is sure of his alignment.

Hiplop thinks I'm scum...so are you saying he's bussing me because he knows I'm scum? Or, are you saying that he knows I'm town and trying to lynch me?

Also, what do you mean by #434 and #436?

By the way 'Ghostlin wouldn't be acting this scummy if he was town,' is A, WIFOM, and B, not how I play PRs. I try to keep my head down and non-committal as a PR, particularly a cop PR.

Here. If you want to get a bead on how I act as a PR, these are the games to read:

Cop: 1085: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17140
1072: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=16743

Doctor: 1046: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=15970

To be honest I wrote that post to hiplop quick and didn't really think, so I don't have any real explanation. I can think of many scenarios.

By 434 and 436 I mean it makes it harder for scum if we share our reads.

And why are you sharing your townmeta? I've caught scum with that before chap.

[Johhog]

@Johhog: So me explaining to AeRyung that part of the RQS which she has been talking about is null, me being sincere about TM and replying to CS is fabricated?..

Yeah, it seems.... forced in some way. As I've said I'm one of these few players who only uses my gut and admits to it.

[Johhog]

Yeah, a hammer would be fine for me at least.

[Johhog]

No no, if Ghostlin selfhammers as scum on L-1, that's good play. Scum can do that if they believe they will get lynched and to cut discussion short for town. But yeah, someone needs to hammer. You aren't voting Ghostlin either Theam.

[Johhog]

Of course, if you're scum then feel free to self-vote/self-hammer. Self-voting/self-hammering as scum denies the town information and IS playing toward your win condition by confusing the remaining townies and allowing your partner to hide in the confusion.

[Johhog]

Oh, you revoted. I see.

[Johhog]

Wasn't about hiplop specific, I wanted everyone to give their reads in case they got nk'd.
---
Let me think for a moment now. I was nearly sure that Ghostlin is scum, and when I saw his flip I thought Theam was scum, but this kill is confusing me, almost like scum want to frame Theam. I dunno though, maybe it's a double bluff?

[Johhog]

Well, DH-Star is scummy but the Ghostlin flip makes him more town. Still, I can't really find who is scum here. Perhaps you Morthas? I get a weird feeling from your posts, almost like you're... well, I'm sorry, but I can't put my finger on it.

Who was the 2 others who brought it up? I'm afraid I missed it.

[Johhog]

How is that relevant?

Ninja'd: I dunno, you're just feeling evasive, like you have something to hide... mostly a gut feeling, but tbh I don't feel it today so far.

[Johhog]

OK, if we try to leave all the WIFOM out, why did hiplop get killed? He would be an easy lynch, and his play didn't really match a PR, so it must be something we can't see. Yeah, his kill may have been entirely designed to confuse, but I don't think it's that likely. I believe there is something we don't get, so I'll ISO him now.

[Johhog]

I just noticed something

What can i say? I love getting wasted.

18 is Swedish legal drinking age?

Um, yeah, but I'm the Swede here (Morthas is English IIRC) and who waits for 18 anyway? I'd love to know what this has to do with anything.

[Johhog]

Heh, care to correct your lie?

[Johhog]

So CS is the next victim unless we protect/lynch him first, right?

Oh, why didn't I notice this scumslip earlier? This implies that you _know_ that CS is town.

[Johhog]

You know that all the SE's here are IC elligible right? Only a select few have been IC's though. IIRC, Morthas was never an IC, yet he can apply to play as one.
All this IC talk is just going nowhere. It doesn't matter how experienced you are. As far as I can tell, if you keep thinking that the reason he was NK'ed was because he was the 'most' experienced, then that just worsens the newbie's position. Meaning, you.

So far, I've only seen hiplop interacting with SoulBlade (now DH-Star) and Johhog in a slighty more negative way than the rest. Johhog's appearance there again gives me that bad gut feeling...

Mm, I'm starting to develop a gut feeling that would indicate that you're scum too, but tbh it's

A) Not so strong. BKWM's play was incredibly town and you're still - well, null-town or something if I should try to think logically.
B) Subconsciously OMGUS I guess. I'm sorry, but I find it hard to avoid OMGUS and that is influencing my gut.

I'm not quite sure why I'm posting this really, but I can take this opportunity to share my updated reads:

AeRyung - Town
DH-Star - Logic tells me town because of the Ghostlinflip, gut tells me scum
theamatuer - Scum most likely
Stels - Logic tells me null-town, gut tells me null-scum
Morthas - I don't have that feeling I had yesterday, so null-town
ConSpiracy - Town

...yeah, my gut is probably paranoid.

[Johhog]

You've been playing like scum all the game, almost every post you make is full of scumness, nothing more to add to that. Self-voting, frequent WIFOM, fluff etc. I think the list can continue for a long time but I won't do it. And no, I don't buy the defence that you're a newb.

DH-Star is a wildcard, he played like a Ghostlinbuddy, not a Theambuddy, but I have my gut telling me he's still scum. Not much evidence for him being scum as I said.

Ninja'd: What? Tell me moar.

[Johhog]

Mm, I'm starting to develop a gut feeling that would indicate that you're scum too, but tbh it's

A) Not so strong. BKWM's play was incredibly town and you're still - well, null-town or something if I should try to think logically.
B) Subconsciously OMGUS I guess. I'm sorry, but I find it hard to avoid OMGUS and that is influencing my gut.

I'm not quite sure why I'm posting this really, but I can take this opportunity to share my updated reads:

You are whining a bit too much. And your day 2 play hasn't been what I hoped for.

Whining? EXPLANATION... NOW...

[Johhog]

Well, this game is hard to read for sure.

Guys, would you follow your gut or your logic in voting? I know that I decide who I will vote, but I'm just asking.

[Johhog]

Hai there. Let's hope our time together in this game will be longer than 30 minutes.

[Johhog]

Who is Ksun?

[Johhog]

Sorry guys, I forgot this game completely.

Mod, can you please prod hiplop and kondi2424?

[Johhog]

Oh, you're right. Confused right now, heh.

Only prod Kondi then. Thank you.

[Johhog]

Sorry, I was used to the usual "prod upon request after 48 hours" rule and forgot you didn't use it here. Oh well.

[Johhog]

This is stalling way too much. Will reread (and ISO... someone) just to do something.

[Johhog]

Welcome.

Sorry, that was me.

[Johhog]

If you try to flake this off, it only helps my case, and could possibly cause a modkill which would help us get rid of one scum.

Explain. Now.

[Johhog]

Are you kidding me? Modkill? And why would they flake because they're scum? To me this sounds like you're trying to reinforce that you're town because you hasn't flaked - which is completely false logic. This was the last straw.

VOTE: theamatuer

L-1.

[Johhog]

Lemme think...








...



no. 4nx3ity maybe is scum, yeah (his slot is kinda scummy) but not because his predecessors flaked. That reasoning is just terribad.

[Johhog]

the modkill was hoping that after he flaked, Darth would get tired of searching for the fifth replacement and just modkill the spot.

You... was hoping for a modkill? As town? Like 5 fucking hours after his last post? DIE SCUM DIE.

[Johhog]

And Theam, what's your reads right now?

[Johhog]

Ah, some insulting too while you're at it scum?

My point is still valid, you're wanting a modkill if he flakes? And you're assuming that he will flake after like 5 hours?
---
As for your reads... you have nothing? You say that 4nx3ity is your only real read and that we others is unreadable?

[Johhog]

Ah, some insulting too while you're at it scum?

My point is still valid, you're wanting a modkill if he flakes? And you're assuming that he will flake after like 5 hours?
---
As for your reads... you have nothing? You say that 4nx3ity is your only real read and that we others is unreadable?

No, I didn't finish reads as I don't feel like doing any more today. I've said explicity that I'll do one read/ISO per day.
And why not? kondi flaked in 5 minutes

So you can get more time to fake your reads? And you don't have to ISO someone to get a read on them.

Please hold off this discussion so other people get chance to read.

Why? There is finally something happening and the rest can read this later.

[Johhog]

Theam, convince me in... say, three sentences that you're town. Just the most important stuff.

[Johhog]

What are you going to do for me to unvote? Y'know, I can't see your role-PM. How am I supposed to know that you're town?

[Johhog]

You aren't even trying to defend yourself now. Can't you try to give us reasons why you're town instead of rolling over and dying?

[Johhog]

WIFOM? You should never use WIFOM, and there is no way to prove that you're town with WIFOM.
---
What do you other guys think of thematuer?

[Johhog]

My vote stays where it is until you tell me why you're town and do it in a convincing way. You're scummy, and your refusal to argue why you're town is bad.

[Johhog]

Welcome.

@johhog why are you on this forum with a different account? Is it common to have multiple accounts on mafia and why?

Yes, alts is allowed on this site, and it's semi-common for experienced players to counter their meta. Y'know, if a certain player plays much with another player that players will "learn" each others play. Therefore you can create an alt account.

However, my account that I failposted with is not really an alt. It's a hydra. In bigger, non-newbie games two or more players can play on the same account, occupying the same player spot. Sunset is a hydra of me and Twistedspoon.

[Johhog]

Hm, I guess that

can

mean that CS is his scumbuddy if Theam is scum, but IDK, I have a townread on CS.

[Johhog]

To me you're pretty obvscum, yes. I mean, there's two scum left and I can barely get a scumread on someone else (Morthas and 4nxi3ty is like nullscum).

[Johhog]

I expect that this would mean that CS and Stels are surescum and that 4nxi3ty will be completely ignored and win as scum

Sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to tell me here. Please explain in other words.

[Johhog]

And who do you think is 4nxi3ty's scumbuddy?

[Johhog]

If theam self - vote Johog =scum.

If he self-votes as town or scum? What do you mean?

[Johhog]

Guys, I had a crazy thought, but maybe it's not worth it, IDK. CS looked a lot like Theam's scumbuddy now, recently, so if we're sure that Theam is scum we can hammer him while CS is on V/LA. This will either force scum to no kill, kill CS (which is to almost everyone, while I'm not personally convinced, a scumread) and rid us off a scummy player or no kill. Bit risky though, and I don't know if it's worth it, but I just thought I should put it out there.

[Johhog]

Not worth it. you're assuming that both both would be on V/LA here. Also, if CS is scum, scum wouldn't NK him, now would they?

No, I'm assuming that you and CS is the scumteam. Very risky as I said though. And of course I meant that he would get night killed if he was town so we wouldn't get a confirmed townie.

especially if I am scum and CS is scumbuddy. CS cannot and would not kill himself here. Other may just kill someone else just to bring suspicion to CS

If someone dies during the night CS is confirmed town as he's on V/LA.

[Johhog]

Ugh, painful to watch.

1. You NEVER fake a V/LA. That is blacklistable.

2. I thought your scumread was 4nxi3ty, why the sudden change of heart just to save yourself?

[Johhog]

Wait, why do you assume that CS is a rolecop? That looks like a slip to me tbh.

[Johhog]

No, Theam, you're an idiot right now.

That must be why hiplop got killed, he replaced Ibarra who breadcrumbed cop.

Oh man, you just found something in an incredibly fail way.

[Johhog]

Wait, and you're the one who found that? I'm feeling paranoid now, but I have a feeling your (probably) more experienced scumbuddy told you of this breadcrumb at night, so you killed hiplop. It's all falling into place now.

[Johhog]

The other one must be Morthas or CS. Both gut and logic, everything tells me it's Morthas, but your interactions with CS is weird. Oh well, that's for tomorrow. I'm convinced now!

[Johhog]

Tbh BKWM was obvious failtown, and Stels is still town (that's just gut though) but mainly it's because of Morthas posting style. He's evading like a champ.

And sorry, but I'm not going to believe that you found that.

Can we vote Theam for awesomeness now?

[Johhog]

So why do you think there is a doc?

[Johhog]

...




Claiming rolecop? Please tell me if otherwise.

And why do you think I will get NK'd?

[Johhog]

OK, I'm going off to bed now, but I swear, if I wake up tomorrow and see someone else than Theam is lynched, I'll rage. VERY FUCKING SERIOUSLY. Just look at all the slips, all the scumminess. We can't write it off as newbness.

[Johhog]

Well, the gambit will obviously only work if you're scum, but I'm around ~95% sure that you're scum, and now you're just trying to buddy up with me, which reinforces my scumread even more. And this stuff now. I mean seriously? To test if he can go online? It never crossed your mind that he could fake being offline?

AeRyung, you're town, but you're wrong. We lynch Theam first, then we can lynch CS.

Morthas, why so hesitant to bus your scumbuddy?

Guys, FINISH HIM.

[Johhog]

Oh, and Morthas was online but didn't post. Excellent.

[Johhog]

If you flip town (from scum to town:

4nxi3ty - Can't see you guys on the same team tbh.

Morthas - He's still evading, so he's still a nullscum read if you flip town.
Stels - BKWM was town, Stels also is to a point.
ConSpiracy - Still a townread.

AeRyung - Quite obvtown.
Johhog - Obvtown and very handsome.

If you flip scum:

Morthas - DEFINITELY. This guy is scum.

ConSpiracy - As I said, the interactions with you are weird.
Stels - What I said above.
4nxi3ty - You're not on the same team.

AeRyung - Yeah, obvtown.
Johhog - Obvtown and still very handsome.

Also, yeah, I admit to almost only using gut, so you won't find much reasoning there.

Ninja'd: Theam, if you're town it's LyLo tomorrow (if the scum kill goes through). Are you really so sure on your scumread on 4nxi3ty?

[Johhog]

You could try that. I won't be online next monday till wednesday which is precisely enough for me not doing the kill (I have absolutely no possibility to be online during these days).
This only works if I am scum and scum with theam though.
I only do not get why scum would kill me. As far as I know, I have two votes on me and would be a likely mislynch tomorrow. (maybe even today)

No, scum maybe would kill you if you was town and Theam scum. Otherwise they have to nk or make you confirmed townie when a kill happens.

]Morthas - He's still evading

What am I evading? If I am, please point it out ;> .

Yeah, I'm sorry, and evading probably isn't the right word, but... I get a very weird feeling from you. I can't really put my finger on it, sorry.

I'm ready to hammer Theam, the thing about CS not being able to kill sounds appealing but not foolproof but let's try it anyway.
If everyone agrees I will drop the hammer.

DO IT.

[Johhog]

YEAH SURE.

[Johhog]

Has Theam even claimed yet? I suppose he's VT though or he would've claimed by now...

Theam, claim if you haven't done it already.

[Johhog]

Free town cred to the one who hammers!

[Johhog]

Not really, I genuinely wanted someone to hammer.

If you're scum (which you probably is) and the CS gambit fails Morthas is probably the other one though.

[Johhog]

I'm a fucking idiot and I think that I basically told scum that Morthas was the doc. More content later, I'm a football (the real, European version :p) referee and have a game soon.

[Johhog]

OK. Remember I told you Morthas was "evading"? A VT wouldn't evade (in fact, they're often, but not always of course, talkative) and a cop wouldn't evade, the JK was dead. Yeah, scum evade. But a doc also evade, because they can't get any protection in this set-up. Scum knew that Morthas wasn't scum, so they thought he was the doc. And he was. And I'm feeling like an idiot. And he was my top scum read, so I don't know what to do now.
...


...
Right, during the night I glanced over the game again (not a full reread though) and tried to get some reads. FMPOV, I would say that 4nxi3ty is almost confirmed scum. AeRyung is town, I'm willing to bet my shirt on it and there's no way both Stels and CS is scum with 4nxi3ty as town. No way. But who is his partner? Stels or CS? Originally I thought CS, my town read on him was beginning to vanish a little. But after all, I think it's Stels. I can't tell you why, because I don't know. But I feel this must be the case. My inner voice is telling me that CS is town.

[Johhog]

And I see CS is browsing the forums (wouldn't he get back tomorrow?) so my gambit would've failed even if Theam was scum, I'll assume he had the opportunity to be on-line some time during these days. Wonderful.

Now I'm going to take a shower and see if I miraculously see the scum in a vision.

[Johhog]

Johhog, I was online around twelve o'clock today for the first time, so the gambit would have worked if the day ended earlier.

Hm, you're admitting that you was on-line? This is probably null though, scum would have to tell the truth in case someone saw them and town wouldn't want to lie.

And I'm afraid that's proof my gambit failed, because after all the day didn't end "earlier", did it?

[Johhog]

If we had lynched Theam quick enough, while CS was on V/LA and if Theam was scum we probably would've won the game.

It failed though, in multiple ways.

[Johhog]

Look, if we had lynched earlier AND Theam would've been scum, if CS would've been the alone scum member, he couldn't have submitted the night kill. If he was town, scum would either have to:

A) Kill him.
B) No kill.
C) Kill someone else, but CS would be confirmed town because he couldn't submit a night kill.

Well, it didn't work, but that was the plan.

[Johhog]

You're mainly scum because of your predecessors play, but also because I find it hard to believe that both CS and Stels is scum.

I would say that Stels is the other one, but I'm not sure.

[Johhog]

It's LyLo, so unvote please.

[Johhog]

If I didn't want to take responsibility for the TM lynch of anything thereof that relates to TM, why would I, during Twilight, even bother with voting him?

That's full of WIFOM and you know it. The most likely scumteams according to me:

4nxi3ty-Stels
4nxi3ty-ConSpiracy
ConSpiracy-Stels
4nxi3ty-AeRyung

I don't really know what to do now. I can swear that 4nxi3ty is scum, but I can't vote him this early, I think we need more discussion.

[Johhog]

I'm a little busy right now, but I plan to reread the game this weekend with both 4nxi3ty and Stels as main targets to find out who is Johhog's scumbuddy.

With the timing of AeRyung's vote it is almost impossible for Johhog and Stels to be scumbuddies.
Johhog, at least attempt to build a case based on my predecessor's action. Just cause you reapeatedly call me scum won't make it true.

Um, I almost never make cases, I'm only using my gut. Will try to make one though.

[Johhog]

Also, what do you mean with that post AeRyung?

[Johhog]

Great discussion, I learnt a lot about voting and mafia games overall. Sorry I wasn't posting - I wasn't feeling well yesterday.

So the excuses for not posting already begins here. Not remarkable at the time I would guess, but look at the later posts.

Ghostlin: I think I have to agree with AeRyung here, she has good arguments against BKWN. Sometimes a scum wants to blend

too

much into the town by overly doing his role (blending into the town) by talking and saying the things similar to BKWN said.

VOTE: Unvote
VOTE: Vote: BKWN

That's a crappy reason, and why didn't he provide a case? How strange, it almost looks like bussing!

Great discussion, I learnt a lot about voting and mafia games overall. Sorry I wasn't posting - I wasn't feeling well yesterday.

That's great, now that you are on the pc, start posting.

Certainly, good sir.

I said I find you suspicious because of your elaborateless reasoning as to why you voted for the people you did. But then again, there isn't much to elaborate without a good amount of info. Though, your last post has increased my FoS on you. You are quite aggitated by my post of suspicion, I sensed an irritation in your writing. Here are some reasons why I suspect you. First, you lost your composure to my FoS. Second, you revealed your "plan" (Why?). Third, when you said "unless you are scum, in which case feel free to get so pissed you cant type straight." It sounds like an attempted provocation, or alternitavely, a way to get FoS off of yourself, desperately.

I can see that being truth.

I agree.

Mod: Please replace me. I can't seem to handle the pace of this game.
I forgot how the pace of the games here are faster compared to the ones I play at another forum.

Indeed, on other forums the first day is just random voting and then a few posts on the second day. It's much different than here!

This is nothingness. It's like a prod dodge post disguised as content.

unvote

vote: theamatuer

<.<>.>
.................................................what?

Self-hammering? Interesting. But how can we trust you? You can't just prove yourself being town by voting for yourself. You might deceive us.

So he claims that he thought it was a hammer, but then he goes on and talks about Theam as if he's still alive. Mildly scummy, but there's a slight risk he was only confused.

I am also getting a feeling SouldBlade might be scum.
@SoulBlade: What do you think of Amateur, Ghosty, CS and why.

theamateur: as already stated, he's trying to point other people to vote for, seems very suspicious. I think the others can agree on that.

Ghostlin: he is analysing everything very carefully, I must admit. But sometimes the most helpful and regular posters in a mafia game can turn out as a scum.

This is one of the reasons I like this game - it's a game of deception! You know nothing of the other person, but yet you must figure out how to do it. One of my ways of playing mafia is sometimes denying the arguments one is stating and think of him as a scum. How can a scum do this, why should a townie do this - sometimes it's a maze - everyone can be the bad or good guy. We should always doubt.

ConSpiracy - Same as Ghostlin - a helpful and analysing poster. I need more information about you. What would you say...

I think we bashed BKWM (sp? doesn't matter, replaced) enough.

UNVOTE: Stels
VOTE: ConSpiracy

This post is so full of fail. You're calling CS helpful and analysing, and then you vote for him? This could be distancing, but I think it's more likely that the unvote of Stels is newbscum trying to deflect attention away from his scumbuddy, afraid he will get lynched. "we bashed BKWM enough" is his motivation, and then he votes for a guy who he thinks is helpful.

It feels great to replace someone who posted nothing useful and merely parroted at the beginning of the Day before disappearing. /sarcasm, but I started reading back without knowing who I replaced, and even I'll admit that SoulBlade looked scummy. Ah gotta love life.

With almost all scumtells descended into pure WIFOM these days, the "Heh, I would've voted my predecessor if he wasn't confirmed town to me" scumtell is still valid. I assure you, 2 of 3 times I see someone say this they're scum.

Gotta love the way i am perceived to be neutral in all of my games.

I almost forgot about you. Now whether that's good or bad ...

Actually, Morthas was near the top of my Town list around the beginning of the game. However, he's practically disappeared these past 2 days, which has caught my eye.

Unvote

btw. Still going over Ghostlin/Hiplop. For the Town's sake, I hope Ghostlin doesn't flip Town because fingers would then be pointed at Hiplop, which I don't agree with since I think Hiplop is town regardless of what alignment Ghostlin is.

This post is a school example of a post without content made to look like a post with content.

I'm on the verge of voting Ghostlin before someone else does because I don't want to hammer. Look into this previous comment all you want but I'm only hesitant because as a noob, it'd be risky to put all my eggs in one (Hiplop's) basket, even though Ghostlin has not looked extremely town-like thus far. Argh :/

I'm almost certain TheAm is inno. I'd be pretty amazed if he were scum, especially if it was Ghosty/TheAm scum team.

So he's not wanting to hammer, which means he wants to avoid attention. This means one of two things: He's a PR, or he's scum. Keep in mind that both of our PRs is dead. Oh, and this is also one of the few valid scumtells today.

Err nice post. You get called on posting fluff and not doing anything for the Town and you don't even have anything to say to that, or anything to back that up.

Interesting

How interesting that DH-Star is the one pointing this out. In over 100 posts he's posting nearly zero content, and the little content he's posting is scummy. After this post, he flakes. Brilliant.

Hey Johhog. Hey ConSpiracy.

I'll read through and post my thoughts.

Um, nothing special with this I guess, but this is the only post before he flakes. The strange part?

He didn't site flake. He continued to post in other games and apparently ignored his prod.

Um could i get a standard layout of what has happened since ghostlin and hiplop were killed? Looking for initial reactions and changes in behavior, please don't give me a list without any content.

Why so hesitant to get this? Town would want to give his own opinion first.

A theam flip will give us the most info at this point.

fos CS and Stels

for distancing.

If theam is scum one interesting event was the D1 bandwagon on him. Only three people decided to leave their votes...... CS, Stels, and ghostlin

VOTE: THEAM

RAWR

In hindsight, with Theam as confirmed town, this is a scummy post. Basically you want an info lynch here, as Theam pointed out, leading us to possible LyLo.

Can you please discuss the possibility of CS or stels being scum?

It would help convince me to change my vote.

U don't need to answer me right away. You can take your time if that helps.

This post is scaring the shit out of me, the "take your time part" especially. This is one of the posts I can't explain why it's scummy, it's just gut, sorry.

Please hold off this discussion so other people get chance to read.

Was this a serious post? Why would you want to stop discussion as town?

@johog, not sure if I am asking the right questions.

Your thoughts might help.

Light buddying to a more experienced player.

Spoiler: CS iso

3. LYNCH GHOSTLIN, tm vote.
11.Dont lynch Ghostlin, lynch TM
13. Ghostlin only looks contentless. Ghostlin is good tm tunneler, otherwise null. LYNCHTM!!!!!!!!!!
17. Im late, TM is random, Johhogs anticlaim policy like. Ghostlin is town PR, play bad, theam buddying to hiplop, DH-star lacks reads. Scum roleclaim scum, aeryung case, morthas strawman, null, TMSCUM

CS's posts feel weird for some reason, but I can't put my finger on it.

<.< ^.^ >.> potraying CS as town, yet saying u are suspicous of him.

You are a L-1 because your actions and reasons condradict.

Aside from that, Stels is being unsually quiet recently. willing to switch my vote to him if there is a good reason.

How is that portraying him as town?

If theam self - vote Johog =scum.

You never explained what you meant with this, but sure it's scummy as hell.

hmm... im okay with the early hammer plan

makes day 3 more fun

.

Why did you put that in italics? I know, a minor issue, but I'm getting paranoid here and I'm thinking it's a breadcrumb of some sort. >_>

Yeah, when ISOing him I found out that 4nxi3ty was scummy too. A while since I last made a case, so please tell me if you're wondering something. I don't think that AeRyung is scum and I'm willing to take the risk that Stels and CS isn't scum together. This guy needs to get lynched.

[Johhog]

Saving? I created it now.

And as I said I'm not used to making cases, sorry. But yeah, I promise you that I actually try to scumhunt, I just have difficulties writing my thoughts down in words.

What quotes is out of context, specifically?

[Johhog]

Wow, that's the last time in a long time I'll make a case. They always make me seem scummy.

[Johhog]

FUCK CASES. This ain't the first time I'm considered scummy because of a case, and still people wants them!
---
So something you wanna ask me, or what? 4nxi3ty didn't even answer to my failcase, so now I'm completely sure it's him. The other one - well, it's Stels or CS. Probably Stels, but hard to say considering that he haven't posted much lately. Please, I beg of you, look past my case and at my other actions instead. If you find them scummy too - well, not much I can do then, can I?

[Johhog]

Here is my case for the johhog/stels scumteam:

I'm a fucking idiot and I think that I basically told scum that Morthas was the doc. More content later, I'm a football (the real, European version :p) referee and have a game soon.

Commenting on the NK is a scumtell(according to the wiki). CS already covered this earlier.

Alright, wasn't aware it is (I wouldn't blindly trust the wiki though).

And I see CS is browsing the forums (wouldn't he get back tomorrow?) so my

gambit

would've failed even if Theam was scum, I'll assume he had the opportunity to be on-line some time during these days. Wonderful.

I assume that the term gambit is most likely used by scum, correct me if i am wrong.

Actually you are wrong. Can be used by both town and scum.

What's this gambit you

(referring to cs, after rereading he doesn't look as eager as johhog.

and Johog are so eager to talk about?

Look, if we had lynched earlier AND Theam would've been scum, if CS would've been the alone scum member, he couldn't have submitted the night kill. If he was town, scum would either have to:

A) Kill him.
B) No kill.
C) Kill someone else, but CS would be confirmed town because he couldn't submit a night kill.

Well, it didn't work, but that was the

plan

.

this was a red flag for me. it looks like he is uncomfortable with using the word gambit again.

Nope, but I'm able to use synonyms.

Okay this explaination of the gambit/plan (poor choice of words?) makes more sense than the first one provided.

um why am I scum?

And who is my scumbuddy, it wasn't very clear.

You're mainly scum because of your predecessors play, but also because I find it hard to believe that both CS and Stels is scum.

I would say that Stels is the other one, but I'm not sure.

-ignores my first question, decides to only answer the other two.

Reading that again I still can't see what your "first question" was, please explain.

FUCK CASES. This ain't the first time I'm considered scummy because of a case, and still people wants them!
---
So something you wanna ask me, or what? 4nxi3ty didn't even answer to my failcase, so now I'm completely sure it's him. The other one - well, it's Stels or CS. Probably Stels, but hard to say considering that he haven't posted much lately. Please, I beg of you, look past my case and at my other actions instead. If you find them scummy too - well, not much I can do then, can I?

Why do want only me to answer your case and no one else?

I would prefer others to answer to it too, but the case is about you, so it's important that you answer.

After reading CS's case, Stels has become my other suspect.
He hammered on the first PR day one and on D2 his vote was placed on the other PR. Than when morthas hammered theam he switched his vote before the final votecount.

I'm a little busy right now, but I plan to reread the game this weekend with both 4nxi3ty and Stels as main targets to find out who is Johhog's scumbuddy.

With the timing of AeRyung's vote it is almost impossible for Johhog and Stels to be scumbuddies.

I disagree. It would be a pretty high risk to have the quickhammer happen then already.

your probably right about that tho i would've risked it xD.

[Johhog]

Nexus, can you please prod Stels?

[Johhog]

Nexus, can you please prod Stels?

Sorry, forgot to bold it.

[Johhog]

sfjkljs

Sorry, once again I forgot it's three days until prod in this game.

[Johhog]

Can you prod Stels now, please? 72 hours have passed.

[Johhog]

I don't really know what else to say right now and here is way too quiet... anyone with any questions?

[Johhog]

Prod-dodge. Yeah, I'm not writing more than that because there's absolutely NOTHING to comment on. I'm 4nxious to end this day.

[Johhog]

If you mean to ask where I am I'm here. I'm preparing a response to the case but I will likely not have enough time to finish it until tomorrow evening.

[Johhog]

vote: johhog

- should probably give him a chance to respond before you hammer.

WTF? It's LyLo if you didn't know it. I suppose the old scumtell still works -

the first to vote in LyLo is scum

.

I will definitely try to finish my response to CS's case (it's only a few sentences though, but I've been extremely short on time) tonight, but I'm a little afraid I won't be able until tomorrow. I'm sorry, but shit is happening at work.

[Johhog]

Obviously I can't answer about the Paradox part, as I have no idea about his reasoning.

The first example is right after he caught up:
In post 210, he says his four scumreads were Ghostlin, Theam, AeRyung and Soulblade. However he only continues his reads on Ghostlin and Theam. Both were the biggest wagons at that time.

Correct. I can't pursue four scumreads simultaneously, so obviously I had to choose my biggest ones. AeRyung was mostly a vague gut feeling I got when I first read the thread. Soulblade's status as scum was at the time, in my mind, very dependant on Ghostlin flipping scum.

A second example is here:
In post 475, he posts that the night-kill might be done to frame Theam. He did this after both Theam himself (In post 466) and Morthas (In post 469) said this. And after being called out for it, he suddenly changes his opinion to "that's not the reason" (In post 483).

Well, do you think that I should refrain from posting my opinions just because someone else agrees? I don't think so, eh? As for post #483 I clearly said "If we try to leave all of the WIFOM out", the WIFOM of course being if the kill was designed to frame Theam or not.

a third example can be found in these posts:
In post 650, he says for the first time that he thinks aobut a CS-Theam scum-team, directly after 4nx said that.
In post 662, he posts that the CS-Theam scum-team looks a lot more possible to him.
And in post 665, I am Theam's scumbuddy. Before 4nx said anything like that he didn't even think of the idea and he switched from "maybe" to "it is" in 15 posts.

I like to reread. IIRC I partly did a reread during that time.

Johhog on Ghostlin's claim

When Ghostlin had four votes on him and hiplop asks for a claim, he reacts quite odd. His first reaction (In post 255) he said that Ghostlin claiming VT would mean town should lynch him. That way he gives himself a good reason to place the hammer, as he apparently thought that Ghostlin would claim VT. However, after Ghostlin claimed Jailkeeper, his reaction changes a lot. His first reaction (In post 290) he says he doesn't believe the claim at all, with a reason that Ghostlin was just trying to survive as scum. This is odd, because it wouldn't have mattered what Ghostlin claimed: VT means autolynch, PR means scum trying to survive. That is not everything, though. A few posts later (post 296, post 298 and post 305) Scum always fakes PR to avoid being lynched and the claim shouldn't matter at all to the reads. Johhog bent his "rules" about claiming to his scummy liking, so he has a reason to support the wagon.

Yes? VT = Autolynch according to me, at least that early. If he claim a PR we have to think it over a little more, but in Newbie Games scum almost always claim a PR if they're facing a lynch, so therefore it's full of WIFOM and I don't really take the claim into account that often. My philosophy tends to be that we probably should lynch those that we got to a claim (on Day 1 that is).

Johhog's agreeing with AeRyung

At the end of day 1, AeRyung posted her thoughts about a CS-hiplop scumteam. Johhog agrees (In post 389) with the case she made and apparently thought a CS-hiplop would be a scumteam that made sense. However, 2 posts later (In post 407) he says that hiplop is his best scumread (if Ghostlin flipped town) and I was his best town read. That completely contradicts with his agreement of AeRyung's case. I said something about it back then and he gave some half answer (In post 421) that he only agrees with me possible buddying to hiplop. If that was right, he would have said something about that earlier, but he agreed with everything in AeRyung's case.

No idea what happened, and tbh I don't remember. I know it's scummy as fuck, but well, I can't make up a reason, can I? I think it was something along the lines that you was a possible scummember with hiplop, but overall extremely townie. He was just giving me extreme town vibes - and he still does to an extent. Stels has also appeared town this day though, so it will be a very hard Day 4 (if I'm still alive that is. If AeRyung don't get NK'd I probably will). Meh. :/

Johhog's self-discrediting

A minor, yet addable reason that has to be mentioned, as well. In post 506, he mentions his own gut to be "paranoid" and says his gut feeling for Stels is "not so strong" and "partially OMGUS". It is a common scum tell for new scum to discredit their own reads. They do that, because it is easy to come off as not very confident and this way that's easy to accomplish.

Oh, this one is complete bullshit though. I'm a very honest player, and I've a hard time to lie even the slightest. I thought it would be fair to tell you that my gut is paranoid, and it's ALWAYS influenced by OMGUS (sadly). How is telling you this a scumtell?

Johhog's nervous reaction

I could make a long story, but first read this post:

If theam self - vote Johog =scum.

If he self-votes as town or scum? What do you mean?

When day 2 was halfway done, Johhog treats Theam as obvious scum. Then 4nx says this, and he suddenly wants to know if 4nx means town or scum. He suddenly isn't sure of his scum read whereas in his other posts the only thing he posts is obv. scum remarks. He is nervous as to what 4nx means, as he doesn't want to have suspcions and therefore totally forgot that he had suspicions on Theam. That's nervous scum.

I wanted to convince myself that Theam was scum. I was

so

sure, but there still was this small voice in my head telling me that he was town based on his late-D2 play. And I asked because 4nxi3ty never explained his post. He still hasn't.

Oh, a slight thing I noticed: You say "4nx" instead of "4nxi3ty". I'm almost sure you're the only one here who does that. A very small thing, but still interesting.

Johhog's knowing Morthas's role

Last but not least, this post:

I'm a fucking idiot and I think that I basically told scum that Morthas was the doc. More content later, I'm a football (the real, European version :p) referee and have a game soon.

How did he know that Morthas was the doc? How did he know he was the one that told scum that Morthas was the doc? This is a major scum-slip. and his reasoning why is craptastic.

Already explained this. I don't get why it is "craptastic", but... yeah. :/
He basically was trying to stay in the shadows until we called him out on it. I thought it was a scum thing. Of course, a doc would do the same thing.

CS, in short you're case is very fucking weird. I have to agree with a lot of your case, as it actually describes what I've been doing pretty accurately. I don't get how it's scummy though. To me it seems that you try to paint perfectly normal behaviour and sometimes outright town behaviour as scummy. I don't know what to say, but I don't particularly like the case.

[Johhog]

lol don't worry so much.

aery is busy with school and cs isn't gonna hammer early.

you probably got til the weekend to finish.

You fucking kidding me right? There's still this extremely small risk that CS and Stels is scum together or that one of them is scum together with AeRyung.

Never. Throw. Your. Vote. Out. In. LyLo.

I demand that you remove it NOW, before CS logs on next time.

[Johhog]

All right, 4nxi3ty HAVE to be scum or I'm seriously very worried about the guy - I mean really, that reckless in LyLo. Of course, that'll sound hypocritical, because now I'm doing the exact same thing.
Also, he has to be scum as I'm not quickhammered. Don't know about AeRyung though, she might not have logged in since his vote.
Oh well, I'll take that risk.

VOTE: 4nxi3ty

[Johhog]

I didn't quite understand what you meant with your "bet" but I'm not sure if I want to bet with scum.

[Johhog]

Huh, what? You throw your vote out that early in LyLo, and you're not sure? Of course it's the "right" thing but it almost seems like you try to save your ass by gaining towncred.

[Johhog]

That doesn't mean it isn't scummy.

Correct.

Yeah, but you didn't pursue your other two scumreads at all. That's fake.

Did you even read my answer? I just told you that I can't pursue four scumreads simultaneously.

You discredited a theory "you thought of yourself" with those 10 words? No way that would happen, as you would have thought of it yourself as well (the WIFOM part)

I didn't, I was just trying to find other reasons on why Theam was killed. Do you always stick to one guess, or what?

LAWL, one reread makes me from possible to obv-scumbuddy after never having noticed it? Yeah, no.

Yes. You're not supposed to just look at the thread when you reread. You THINK. Try doing that.

You said: "The problem is that if he claims VT, we have to auto-lynch him." If you think the way you are saying now, you'd not have said it this way, but more like: If he claims, we most likely have to lynch him." With this post you said that VT means auto-lynch and leaves a PR open, not that we should lynch regardless of the claim.

Stop fucking around nitpicking on my word choices. You're starting to annoy me now. HUGE fucking deal if I use another word than you would've used?

I smell WIFOM. Anyways, it's a scum-tell, because it discredits your own reads. It lets you have less responsibility on your reads.

I suppose I'm scum in all of my games then.

I call bull shit. You wouldn't have to worry about it if you had a strongs scum read on Theam as you pretended to have.

WTF is wrong with you CS? You're seriously saying that you should NOT convince yourself that your scumreads is scum. Seriously? You like to quicklynch, am I right?

I shorten every name if I am saying it often. And of course when it makes sense.

You're a bad liar.

That's fine. It's normal if you are scum.

The only response? The. Only. Response? I thought your answer to this one was going to be the longest paragraph in your "case" but apparently I was wrong. So you're scum, right? You can't even bother to comment on why your case is discrediting my normal behaviour as scummy?

thinking johhog and stels might be town buddies and cs/aery couldn't coordinate a quicklynch.

Yet AeRyung has been pushing for a CS lynch. Although not as of the moment... hmm.....

nvm i feel better about my vote now.

vote: johhog

I'm not sure about Stels any more. CS is looking like a bigger suspect by his case alone, as it's full of bullshit. 4nxi3ty needs to die first though. Also AeRyung is lurking too much, almost like she thinks she has it in the bag and it's not worth to participate. SCUM EVERYWHERE!

[Johhog]

I will fucking strangle you post-game. You ain't even giving me the chance to response. You should know better as an experienced player.

[Johhog]

BTW this game is over now, I think Stels will do the right thing (if he isn't scum) but AeRyung will vote me quickly regardless if she's scum or town.

FFS guys, you can still change your mind! I'm not letting town lose this game this easy. There isn't even a real case against me.

[Johhog]

I suppose you will vote for me in the end, but if you have any questions to me, ask away.

[Johhog]

Sorry, I'm at work now. Do you think it can wait until tonight? If not I can probably write something short together quickly.

[Johhog]

unvote: Johhog
vote: 4nxi3ty

Stels, please be quicker with the quicklynch next time. There's a reason it isn't called a slowlynch.

I love you. I hope you did not take offence with my cursing on you Day 3, I was trying to make it look like I was really mad at getting caught (because I thought I would get lynched in the end).

So now I've desperately tried to delay the game the last days, as I was afraid AeRyung would vote me (and she probably would've too in a day or so). One question though CS, why did you put your vote on me during Day 3? I was almost punching my screen in rage when you did that. Stels said he would vote 4nxi3ty after your response, but when you voted me we went through the risk that AeRyung would quicklynch me. Was you going for towncred, or what?

Btw, good game everyone.

[Johhog]

And I absolutely hate playing as scum, as I'm playing at least 5 times better as town. Glad we got rid of hiplop, he would've caught me in the end I think.

[Johhog]

I have nothing against releasing the QT. Is it OK for you CS?

[Johhog]

I feel bad for Stels. Was you really so sure on me being town that you appeared to be?

[Johhog]

And I absolutely hate playing as scum, as I'm playing at least 5 times better as town. Glad we got rid of hiplop, he would've caught me in the end I think.

I thought me being NK'd night one should have sent off a BUNCH of bells to you! It was definitely a risky move, but I guess no one really picked up on our past

I'm impressed by your play in this game though hoggy ( )! Good job

Conspiracy had me fooled when I was alive, very very well. Props!

Thanks!

The kill on you was however not because of our past but because of Ibarra's breadcrumb. Was good for me though.

[Johhog]

Yeah, you was good DY.

Also that's some very impressive notes CS. I loved playing with you too btw, I learnt a lot.