Newbie 1143 - Game Over

[Haylen]

/confirm. As soon as I have mod powers again and can edit a post in an old game, I have 3 information posts for you guys. Too tired to copy/paste and figure out where the coding and links go right now.

[Haylen]

Hi, guys. Welcome to MafiaScum! And possibly your first game here. My name's Haylen, I will answer to any variation of that (Or Rena). I'm your IC (Inexperienced Challenged player...political correctness and all that) and it's my job to show you the ropes and to make sure you understand what is going on. You can ask me any questions you have during the game, unless it is about your role, in which case you must send a PM with your question to Flameaxe (the mod), neither of us bite so don't feel you can't approach us about things. I completely understand that your first game may be a daunting experience...hell, I remember my first game, ended up getting night killed on Night One, and most of you will be in the same boat regarding experience level but you're all here to learn. If you feel as though you haven't done well, don't be put out, just learn from it and improve. It is not cool to insult players for poor logic, anyone caught doing so will receive a post specially made for them in which I barate you...in a kind way. Don't take attacks on your logic personally, or lynches. They happen, that's what Mafia is all about.

Aswell as being a helper here, I am also a player in the game, even though this is a newbie game, I will not be toning down my play, I'll be treating it like a game from any of the other forums otherwise you wont be able to learn and grow as players. Just because I'm the an IC, it doesn't mean you can't attack my logic. I will NEVER lie in my answers when questions asked about game mechanics ect. That would completely defeat the purpose of my being an IC here. If I don't answer your questions quick enough, which is extremely unlikely, I believe the SE's are Thomith and Hazard which means they are Semi Experienced players and may also be able to help - their roles arent teaching roles, though.

Anyway, read the rules Flameaxe has decided to use (warning: other mods may decide to use different variations of these rules, but the fundamentals are all the same,so don't get confused). When this game is over, and you're all excited about joining games in other forums, ask yourselves if you truly feel ready for it...there's nothing worse than going into a mini normal game (or any other non road to rome game, for that matter) and realising halfway through it that you aren't ready.

And have fun!!!


Big warning: I like to multipost, meaning I will post more than once in a row. Usually because I have just remembered something I wanted to say in the post before but forgot. I will spare you my megaposts, no player should ever have to deal with them. Also, my grammar is generally terrible because I have a running conversation in my head and I write literally what my head is saying.

First thing's first.

How we vote and unvote: Flameaxe says in his rules that we have to bold votes and unvotes. This is how we do that:

Code: Select all

[b] Vote: playername [/b] or [b] Unvote: playername [/b]

Another important part of the game is quoting, you will find that you want to quote another player and some point or another. We do that like this:

Code: Select all

[quote="playername"] what they said [/quote]

A little bit more complicated is putting in a link to another post as it requires multiple steps, you might want to use this sometimes when refering to the whole of a post, rather than quoting the whole thing. Here you go:

1) In the post you want to link, click on the little white symbol to the left of the word 'Posted' at the top of the post.
2) Once you have done this, copy and paste the url from your internet's address bar.
3) you will need to do this:

Code: Select all

[url=pasted url from address bar]post number (you can use any word here, but I dont want to be confusing)[/url]

An example of that this. Here is a link to post 1 .

That was a link to Flameaxe's post 1, it has all the rules in it, and as a code, looked like this:

Code: Select all

[url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2741369#p2741369]post 1[/url]

(Yes, the fact I just linked you to the rules post again was not a coincidence. Seriously, read them. Ignorance is never an excuse.

Hope that last one wasn't too confusing, if it was just ask

Anyway, enjoy yourselves!

~Hayl~

PS. I want your opinions on me as a teacher after this is over. I need to know I'm teaching stuff in the right fashion.

[Haylen]

Haylen's Mafia Glossery

L-1, L-2, L-3: This refers to how many votes on a person until they are lynched. For example, if I had 3 votes and Michel had 4 votes, because it is 5 votes to lynch, I would be at L-2 and Michel would be at L-1.

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Lylo: Means lynch or lose. During lylo if the town doesn't lynch a mafia member, then they have automatically lost. Typical lylo situations are 2 townies and 1 scum or 3 townies and 2 scum. If the number of mafia is equal to the number of town at any time, then the mafia have won.

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Mylo: Mislynch and lose: This is actually a more difficult one to explain. Mylo is where the only thing the town can do safely is to no lynch. You should only ever lynch in a mylo situation when a cop has gotten a guilty on another player. Examples of mylo situations are when there are 3 town and 1 mafia or 6 town and 2 mafia. If the town mislynches during mylo then it is an automatic mafia victory, UNLESS the town get lucky and the have a doc in the game that targets the same person the mafia want to kill.

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OMGUS: Stands for 'Oh my gosh, you suck'. It's a type of vote where the voter only votes for who they voted for because they had voted for them first. I tend to stretch the term to people who attack other people because they attacked them first. Everybody suffers from a bit of OMGUS Syndrome, we can't really help but feel the person who is voting for us is scum. A lot of people find this type of votes scummy, but I don't believe they are.

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WIFOM: Wine in front of me, it's basically circular logic. An example of WIFOM would be me telling you lot to go and look at my previous games because I never play like this as town. WIFOM or Circular logic arguments don't hold very much credibility in games.

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FoS: Finger of Suspicion, you can give people one of these in place of a vote if you don't find them scummy enough to vote them but you still find them suspicious. A more suspicious person would warrant a HoS or Hand of Suspicion.

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IGMEOY: I've got my eye on you, generally means they don't find the person scummy but they are going to watch them carefully in the future to make sure they don't do anything scummy then.

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Hammer: The word for the last vote on a player that causes a lynch. Today that would be the 5th vote.

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QFT: Quote for truth. If you want to be lazy and not type something out yourself and someone else has already written it, just quote their post and type 'QFT' under it.

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EBWOP: Edit By Way of Post. Quoting your previous post and changing it because you made a coding error or something.

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RVS: The Random Voting Stage. That's what we're doing now! It's an icebreaker, votes during this stage arent serious.

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Appeal to Emotion: When a player says or does something in order to play with the other players emotions in order to not be lynched. An example: 'If you lynch me, the town will lose.' Scumminess on this varies from player to player.

[Haylen]

To Iso

- This is useful for reading a player on their own, it allows you to see their thought processes and how much of their posts are REALLY content.
At the bottom of the page it says display posts from previous, in the middle dropdown box choose the player and press go and you'll have all of their posts and only their posts.

To watch the topic

- To stop yourself losing it regularly like me.
I think the closest to this now is the bookmark feature. Underneath the login/logout option at the top of the page on the right hand side is a tick with 'bookmarks' next to it. To view pages you've bookmarked and to find out if any other posts have been made in those threads, simply click on 'bookmarks'. You can bookmark a thread by going to the little toolbar at the bottom of this screen and click 'bookmark this thread'. This thread will then appear when you click the bookmark thing I mentioned above.

The wiki

- That thing I edit sometimes.
The wiki is like that deceptive friend who tries to manipulate you into doing what it wants and ends up getting you into trouble. A lot of the information on their is outdated, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't still be read. Link to the wiki is underneath 'watched topics'. A group of people are trying to update the wiki with proper info - some of it is right, the rest isnt.

[Haylen]

Just so you know Travis, early vote counts mean nothing.

Town motivation

due to trying to actually scumhunt and get us out of the RVS early.

Vote Ozzie72

Not a random vote.

[Haylen]

Aha! That reminds me! Questions.

1.

Is there any time coming up where we can expect you to not be very active?

I'm v/la at the Weekends but I will pop my head in.

2.

Have you familiarized yourself with Mafia Discussion and the Wiki?

Duh. Wiki admin.

3.

Have you read at least one completed game on site? I like to think so.[/i]

4.

What is your experience level? How many games have you played? Are there any complete newbies in the house? Does everyone know how the game in general works.

Played roughly 75 games, modded 14-ish now - the majority of which were newbie games.

NOTE: I do not encourage random questioning about game theory because I've seen it be devastating for town before. (I should know, I was the scum asking the questions! >.<)

[Haylen]

My vote wasn't OMGUS, actually. It was because I can't stand numbers You're numbers were more difficult to type than any of the others.

I do wonder why Lizk did not explain his vote, or why he random voted twice.

[Haylen]

I have a migraine. Give me until tomorrow, please. <3

[Haylen]

Just so you know, lurking isn't a scumtell, it's anti-game true lurkers nearly always end up getting replaced. It's the active lurkers you have to go after meaning the people who look like they're providing content when they are not or people who post to avoid prods.

Focusing on one person could let their partner slip away if they are scum or scum to slip away if they are town. So focusing on one player souly could let scum slip by unnoticed.

Tunnelling isn't a scumtell. The partner bit seems like a slip to me, town wouldn't think about trying to find the other scum they should just be happy with one in the beginning and finding the other through connections. I'm trying to say that Thomith seems to be being very specific about the 'their partner bit' almost as though he knows the person Effortless is voting for is scum.

Ozzie: Effortless couldn't have possibly voted for both people for what she voted them for, because she only has one vote. I don't consider her reasoning for voting Sal to Lizk scummy at all because the reasoning was well explained. Plus, she's being so vocal in her wishing Lizk was lynched that at the moment it's unlikely she is scum - scum wouldn't draw attention to themselves like that so early in the game.

My original reason for this vote was just random but then I saw effortless' defense of Gen and found this quite suspicious and the sort of thing that a fellow mafia would do, so i'm going to stick with this vote for now

That's all? No original content? Just happy to go along with another player. No scumhunting or trying to generate discussion...

I don't want to discourages others from discussing someone else, I just don't feel like I should participate in that myself, for now.

A lot of people will tell you this is a bad thing to do while not necessarily scummy. Whilst focusing on one person so early in the game, you are missing a lot of things out like other people's opinions and what other people say. If somebody makes a scum slip, you wont notice it because you're so focused on someone else.

I'm not seeing Lizk's vote for Effortless as pure OMGUS. OMGUS is 'You're voting me so I'm going to vote you back.' Reading Lizk's explanation it seems she thinks she's trying to lead the town.

@ Ozzie - Deadlines are different for each mod. But yes, they are always set because

chess mafia

games went on for months, some the best part of a year.

I know you are all going to think im defending him because he defended me, as was pointed out earlier by someone

Why was this necessary to state? Guilty conscience?

@ Lizk about quotes. Read my first post, it tells you how to do one, you can do two aswell in a post.

I'm not seeing distancing from Thomith and Effortless, unless one of them flips scum. (i'm not suggesting we lynch them).

I'm going to sleep now.

To all my fellow brit's out there: stay safe today.

[Haylen]

Meta-gaming is fine.

Vote Gen_wolf

Does anyone think it's appropriate to L-1 someone this early?

[Haylen]

Unvote Gen

Good answer. I'm just a bit wary when players get quicklynched or put to L-1 so early.

Hmm. I need to do a thorough re-read over the weekend and draw some proper conclusions on people. I don't usually have anything more than gut reads on day one in games, which isn't that uncommon.

@Effortless I guess you''ve got me figured out.

If this is sarcasm it's not read very well over the internet. Due to not knowing, I'm going to take it as truth.

Vote Hazard

[Haylen]

Vote Daybid

have it on a even playing field as it would be 2 townies vs 1 newbie scum.

How would a townie know this?

[Haylen]

find it remarkable that with posting as little as she did she still managed to be wrong twice. First when she said lizk random voted twice. Second when she wondered how Daybid could know that one of the nafia was an IC or SE, even though Daybid explained it in his post.

Actually, I never said outright that Lizk random voted. I was wondering why the vote was unexplained because I didn't notice first time that she had explained, or whether she had actually random voted again. I never said for definite which one it was. I did, however, correct myself later when defending her when everyone was saying it was OMGUS.

I do wonder why Lizk did not explain his vote, or why he random voted twice.

An obvious question. Not a statement.

I'm not seeing Lizk's vote for Effortless as pure OMGUS. OMGUS is 'You're voting me so I'm going to vote you back.' Reading Lizk's explanation it seems she thinks she's trying to lead the town.

When I'd worked out which one it was.

On the Daybid thing: I call things how I see it. If I see something as a potential scumslip then I'm going to tell the rest of the town because witholding information is bad. I read his post and thought 'how does he know there's a newbie scum and that one of the more experienced players is his partner' - it made me think that he was the newbie scum in the lylo situation he had created in his head.

I didn't make a mistake this time, but I probably will during the game. IC's may be god but we're not completely flawless.

[Haylen]

I've been trying to post all day, the weather has been really bad so my connection keeps dying. I'll make this quick, just in case.

I don't understand how you could possibly see this as a random vote.

Ever worked 4 night shifts in a row and tried posting after being awake for 24+hrs? It does some really weird things to the brain. I misread that sentence to be about an entirely different person.

Wondering whether Hazard is being sarcastic or openly admitting to being scum. Seriously?

Have you ever heard the phrase: 'I'm calling your bluff'?

Oh look you are avoiding questions now, answer the question stop avoiding it, or you prove my point that you are despertately trying to mislynch me, without even thinking about anything else but.

You were asked to provide evidence and yet you didn't. Why is this?

I didn't answer your question because it is irrelevant. You won't flip town

What makes you so sure so early in the game? To make such a solid statement as that?

Reading through the lizk/Thomith interaction, I'm pretty sure one of them is scum but I'm not sure which. They both look like they're trying to get a weak player mislynched. I am almost certain this isn't bussing though. They're both as scummy as each other!

I don't think Travis is active lurking.

Small mistakes are more likely scummy mistakes than big ones

It depends on the mistake itself. Scum can make some pretty massive mistakes. I made one a little while ago involving fake claiming an impossible role (the normal rules had changed when I was elsewhere on site).

Leaving it at that for now just in case. I'll be back tomorrow hopefully.

[Haylen]

I genuinely didn't realise it had been three days :/ Reading now.

[Haylen]

Or it could mean that scum didn't kill. Which is more unlikely than the idea of a JK and a doc. Although, I don't think we should get into speculation of power roles right now, it could give scum hints.

[Haylen]

@ Effortless - I couldn't make up my mind about whether or not Thomith was town. He seemed scummy, but I think Daybid was more scummy than he was hence I was voting him. But, I could see why he was lynched. If there was an obvious way he was a townie, I would have been all over it and he wouldn't have been lynched. Lizk is town though, we shouldn't lynch her today.

[Haylen]

Gimme an hour and a half.

[Haylen]

I'd like to know everyone's read on Gen_Wolf because something doesn't quite sit right with him.

Also if I was working with Saldyn, which I am not, dont you think its a little to early to be defending him?

There's this. Which is WIFOM in itself and also it didn't really need to be said.

There's probably other stuff too because gut reads don't come from no where, but I need to sleep right now.

[Haylen]

My thoughts at the moment are I am suspicious of Haylen trying to put pressure on me when I'm pretty sure makority of the game have said they think I'm town, seems scummy like haylen is pushing for another mislynch!

Just because the rest of the game thinks your town, doesn't mean you are and it doesn't mean I'm scummy for having bad vibes from you. Interestingly though, you exaggerated you post; clearly my question didn't indicate that I solidly thought you were scummy and if I wanted to pressure you there would have been a vote aswell. For a start, if you are town then this is just an OMGUS attack which completely invalidates it: 'I think you're scum because you think I am'. I could write an essay on what is wrong with this post but I think I will spare you. Not liking the overreaction to asking for reads of people.

[Haylen]

Haylen: A little FoS for suddenly changing tacts, but also a little curious as it seems to me that she is unsure of who is scum and who isn't and she doesn't have anyone in particular in mind.

I don't get the 'changing tact' bit. The rest is a nice little misrepresentation (this is scummy) though, I've clearly said that I am 99% positive Lizk is town. I don't like your responses to my questions there seems to be a lot of overreaction.

As for Haylen, why the sudden questioning on me? Were you re-reading the game and had no reads so thought "ah let me just take a shot at wolfie over there"

Why not question you? One of your posts gave me funny vibes so I decided to re-read you. Funny thing is, I haven't even read past page 2 on you yet, all this I'm getting from your reaction to questioning.

Clearly they do, you cant lynch someone on day 2 based on a gut read, if you found something I said and then had a go, but your going on a gut read... nice

The best reads are a combination of gut and logic. This is one of those reads.

@ Thor - How can you not see how my questions are crucial to an IC and as a player of a game?

really?

. If you want to tell me how to do my job then try reading between the lines first.

[Haylen]

Hi last night shift tonight. It's messing with my head, in my time my last post had been yesterday. Either way less work = much more active Hayl. Thor, why did you join this game specifically?

It's probably about time I explained my reasons for suspecting Gen_Wolf. Basically, he looked like he was sheeping Ozzie and in my mind I thought he had done that with every read so I asked everybody else what they thought of him to see if they noticed it too (looks like Thor's the only one who's noticed). Either way, I misremembered Gen_Wolf sheeping every player in the game. That being said, I didn't like Gen's reaction to my asking people about him and the way he has been reacting since so

Vote Gen_Wolf

Hey Lizk, to scumhunt, one asks questions, tries to read peoples reactions and tries to weigh up possible scum and town motivation. It's surprisingly hard to learn how to scumhunt.

WHEN I DO TURN UP TOWN, DO YOU NOT THINK THAT WILL BE DETRIMENTAL TO YOU, AND TO TOWN?? There was no IF in there it was a WHEN, its not a scare tactic it was the truth!

Bare in mind, we don't know you're role, we're trying to figure it out. Both scum and town could say the above, but scum are more likely than town because they think it'll scare them into not lynching them. It's called 'Appeal to Emotion' (I like shortening that to A2E, in case I do that in the game).

[Haylen]

I think Daybid. I forgot about him today when I was looking at Gen_Wolf.

[Haylen]

I still feel Haylen is scum, he was called out for active lurking which struck me as a bit odd at first but I didn't say anything

I wasn't active lurking. I was being inactive due to working 48 hrs a week on a combination of day and night shifts. It's not fluff if I provide evidence of it.

I want evidence for diverting attention away from myself because that definitely hasn't happened. My indepth analyse came from your reactions. The possible sheeping of Ozzie made me suspicious of you so I decided to re-read you. I went to look for other stuff, but your reaction to my probing was sufficient enough for me to think you're scummy.

Note Gen's original vote on me was OMGUS. This is still OMGUS. I find it odd that his suspicions aren't matching his voting pattern though. He seems to be yelling most about me when it's Thor he's voting for.

Oh dear. I've been paying so much attention to Gen that I'd be at a complete loss over who is scum whatever he flips. Great. Note, don't completely tunnel on one person, it'll get you stuck in a rut.

[Haylen]

Ok. What have I said, that you have considered to be fluff?

[Haylen]

Actually the definition of fluff is not providing content. That whole post you quoted was defending myself against what you had written, hence content.

"I was inactive due to..." Defending myself against being accused of active lurking. I'm not providing evidence of this.

Content.

"I want evidence for diverting attention away..." Suggesting you're making things up. I notice that you have completely avoided this question too.

Content.

Talking about your reactions. I've given evidence for this already.

Content.

OMGUS vote. Your original attack on me was because you couldn't believe I didn't know you were town. Pretty sure I've given evidence of this.

Content.

Admission to tunnelling.

Also content.

Now read that post again and tell me which part of it did not have content or evidence? I'll ask again, where have I diverted attention from myself? Most people seemed to think you were town, attacking you would have brought me right out into the open if I was scum ESPECIALLY if you flipped town, so that suggestion makes no sense.

If the quote in your #504 is your evidence that I'm diverting attention from myself, that's a misrepresentation because at the time the thing you quoted happened, I would have had no reason to divert attention off myself since nobody was voting me and there was barely any suspicion on me.

So your basing your entire analyse on one reaction when we are late in to day two? So during your reread what else did you find suspicious?

Since I asked one little question, you have over reacted, misrepresented me on multiple occasions, voted me on OMGUS, outright lied about me not posting content, not answered questions asked of you. On top of that there's the possible sheeping of Ozzie and a That's more of a case on you than you have on me, don't knock reaction hunting until you've tried it.

Back tomorrow when I will read up on Effortless.

[Haylen]

The way Quilford has taken my post really frustrates me. For example, I vote somebody and ask a rhetorical question (when voting Gen_Wolf for L-1ing someone) and that's scummy?

In post 28, Haylen wrote:
Vote Ozzie72 Not a random vote.

In post 85, Haylen wrote:
My vote wasn't OMGUS, actually. It was because I can't stand numbers You're numbers were more difficult to type than any of the others.

Contradiction.

Incorrect. What I was suggesting was a policy vote against people who had numbers in their usernames. That is neither OMGUS, nor a random vote.

These questions are pointless and a classic scum distraction tactic - if they weren't, I would have expected Haylen to explain why she asked them after everyone had answered.

*headdesk*
I always ask those questions as IC. I use them to make sure everybody knows the basics of the game. Here, I'll show you.

1. Is there any time coming up where we can expect you to not be very active? I'm v/la at the Weekends but I will pop my head in.
2. Have you familiarized yourself with Mafia Discussion and the Wiki? Duh. Wiki admin.
3. Have you read at least one completed game on site? I like to think so.[/i]
4. What is your experience level? How many games have you played? Are there any complete newbies in the house? Does everyone know how the game in general works. Played roughly 75 games, modded 14-ish now - the majority of which were newbie games.

1. So we know when somebody is going to be inactive in advance and thus don't accuse them of lurking or get them force replaced. It's common curtesy.
2. It's useful to encourage newbies to learn site meta by reading what we discuss and the important information found on the wiki.
3. Helps players learn site meta.
4. To make sure everybody knows the basics of the game. For example, day and night phases.

Still not proof enough, go research my town and scum IC games. I've asked the same questions in every one of them.

It's interesting that Haylen doesn't selfvote in this post considering she completely fits her description of 'active lurker' in this post -- which was made on August 10th, 130 non-mod posts into the game of which only nine were hers

At this point, I'm just going to assume Quilford is picking and choosing what posts to take any notice of. I've explained multiple times that for the past 3 months, I've been working 48hrs a week when I usually work 16. So I wasn't active lurking, to me making an IC post was far more important than the other stuff.

I'll answer the rest in a bit. The amount of wrong in that post is amazing.

[Haylen]

Hi Prozac.

@ Mod - Any chance I can be cheeky and ask for a deadline extension due to replacements?

Response to Quil's response.

Why didn't you say this in the first post? Saying "Not a random vote." pretty clearly indicated you find that player scummy for some reason or another.

Because I often see people use it to generate discussion and get people out of the RVS stage and wanted to give it a go myself.

At that point you hadn't mentioned anything of the sort. In fact only five days prior you had said

My sudden V/LA's are none of your business. I'm not going into it. If I had known I was going to disappear, I would have said.

Back to the other post.

t's not true that "town wouldn't think about trying to find the other scum". Of course they would; associative tells are great evidence and saying "X is scum with Y" is far more convincing than just saying "X is scum", especially in an open setup with a two-man scumteam.

It took me a long time to figure out where you had drawn your conclusion on this post to the point of confusing me; you've focused on one part of what I was saying and completely blown it own of context. Congratulations:

Thomith seems to be being very specific about the 'their partner bit' almost as though he knows the person Effortless is voting for is scum.

THIS was the important part. I was suggesting that Thomith had slipped up and announced the person Effortless was voting for was his partner.

Scum like to blow things out of context.

I'm not seeing distancing from Thomith and Effortless, unless one of them flips scum. (i'm not suggesting we lynch them).

That's the definition of trying to find the other scum!

Incorrect. The definition of storing information to be used later at such a point when one of them had been lynched/killed as I clearly say in my post I wasn't suggesting lynching anyone.

Explained, schmexplained. Anyone can explain their reasoning well; it's whether or not the points have any merit.

If something is well explained, that tends to mean that those points have merit.

I also take issue with the statement 'scum wouldn't draw attention to themselves like that so early in the game'. Scum wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves at

any time, whether early game or not -- and scum don't purposely draw attention to themselves (unless they're WIFOMing). If they did, then why post? It would be defying your win condition.

Optimum scum play. GO. Actually this is quite interesting now I've found a recent scum [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=17782]newbie game[/quote] of yours. You lurked through it as scum and yet here you say scum would never do that?

Haylen, if I'm vocal in wanting you lynched, will you say it's unlikely I'm scum?
Well, if this is the content and evidence you're going to provide when being vocal about my lynch, then I would say you're pretty likely scum.

FoS Quilford

[quote"Quilford"]Trailing off ('...') leaves the reader to make their own minds up as to whether the player is scum or scummy town and effectively absolves responsibility.

The content in that post I made clearly implies my thoughts on the matter. I'm not arguing grammar with you.

Why are you complaining about my lack of content when I've explained at least 6 times that I was V/LA, in fact, I think for the majority of the time I wasn't around much I did have my V/LA banner on.

We never see the results of this reread.

That's most likely because I didn't bother doing one.

The last phrase pre-empts any possible attack.

Catch 22. You'd have attacked me for that phrase anyway. You're reaching.

This is very opportunistic. If she didn't 'know', why not read over Hazard's posts and then come to a conclusion?

Another misrep. I was saying I didn't know if he was being sarcastic or serious. I policy vote anybody who claims scum, it either discourages poor play or calls someones bluff. Now why don't you do the same?

Also opportunistic; you would think that with a 'PhD in Newbie', Haylen would realise that both town and scum can fall prone to forgetting that roles are randomised.

Taken out of context again. Randomization is not the point I was making. Go back and re-read.

"I thought he was sheeping everyone in the game but actually he wasn't. ... ... ... I'm going to vote him because I don't like his reactions.

HUZZAH! Quil's actually taken something I said, read it and hasn't tried making any weird crap up about it.

How long have you been playing on this site, Quil? Are you seriously telling me that you don't see the logic in voting somebody for how they've reacted to the tiniest bit of pressure?

A repeat of something he's already said...

The whole indepth analysis thing? I was stealing words and using them. Someone else said I had an indepth analysis on them, their opinion not mine.

No, the definition of fluff is "To make (something) appear fuller and softer, typically by shaking or brushing it: "I fluffed up the pillows"." Fluffing in the context of Mafia applies to inserting unnecessary content in a post in an effort to make it look like your posting more. Definitions aside, it's pretty clear what Gen is referring to and Haylen transforms it into a semantics argument, in which she basically admits to not scumhunting or generating discussion:

I'm going to pretend this part never happened because it's going to be some sort of blown up thing again.

This contradicts with an earlier statement of Haylen's, which she uses in an attempt to build a case on Gen:

Not getting this. Not sure I want to. Will grit my teeth and ask 'how are those two posts in any way similar?'

"and a" what? It looks like something was hastily edited out here.

It's scummy to make typo's now? Or if something was editted out of there you expect me to remember what it was now? I'm going to explain this because I'm nice. I proof read my sentences to see if they could be worded better, if that's what happened it's because it made absolutely no sense to my grammar checker.

Over-reacted? Seems to be part of his playstyle, and nobody likes being bandwagoned as town.

Blowing up because somebody asks everyone for their opinions on that person isn't overreacting?

[quote"Quilford"]At no point in the game has Haylen produced any evidence to back up her Ozzie-sheeping claim,[/quote]
Assumed I didn't need to, Thor had already mentioned it and I was seeing if anybody else was getting what I did or if I was being oversensitive when I asked everyone's thoughts on him.

Dear Thor - I thought this post was long enough so will be answering the Lizk question in the next one.

[Haylen]

Lizk thing coming tomorrow, Thor. Sorry, been job hunting all day.

Anyone have an opinion on Quil's case on me? I like that although he has been online, Quil hasn't answered it.

I think Effortless is town actually, and scum are hiding because he's been such a big personality this game.

Pretty sure racerman didn't give any reasoning for his thoughts, presumably sheeping.

Isn't Hazard's reaction always going to be: "It was sarcasm" here? I'm trying to figure out what does a vote achieve here if you're going to unvote on the most obvious reaction.

Yep, it would be. The Hazard wagon wasn't going anywhere, if I remember correctly, thus there's no point in trying to obtain a lynch from it.

[Haylen]

I voted for him because he claimed scum.

[Haylen]

Yes. I've lurked. And whilst I lurked, I had a V/LA banner up. I clearly say in my sig that I'm V/LA each weekend. I invite you to attempt a lynch on a person for being V/LA. Have I or have I not been more active in the past week or so?

I don't vote for people I don't think are scum. I think Gen_Wolf is scum, I think Quilford is scum, I'm not placing my vote on a huge wagon when I could be voting for one of them. My content has been substantive when I'm not V/LA.

[Haylen]

Point One: Any particular reason why it sounds fake? Because your accusation here sounds fake to me: no reasons given, anybody could just turn round and refute someones entire defence by saying 'That sounds fake.' Hence why I don't like this.

strongly suggests that the slip is that Thomith was thinking about trying to find the other scum when town wouldn't.

Did you read the whole post because I explained myself at the bottom of that paragraph. Picking and choosing = scummy.

You are saying "if x is scum, y is also probably scum". Regardless of when you intend to "use the information later", you are naming a possible scumteam. You are trying to find two scum.

Actually, I'm saying: 'If X of scum, then Y may be scum under certain circumstances and conditions.' No probably about it. I'd planned of looking into what I said later on in the game, whether I decided to carry it on regardless of X flipping scum. I would never just decide I wanted to lynch something based on that. So no, I'm not calling scum based on that.

Yeah um this time, you can actually answer the question.

Answer still stands.

That doesn't make pre-empting it not a bad thing.

Not the point, you're reaching.

Already been addressed; it's not like he's going to say 'oh yeah guys I am scum, sorry'.

Doesn't stop it from being a misrep.

If you read the original post (viewtopic.php?p=3344378#p3344378), you can tell that Daybid is clearly unaware that roles are randomised. You then selectively quote a part of his post to take it out of context and cast him in a scummy light.[/qupte]
Again, randomizing is not the point I was making. Also, hypocrite.

I'm seriously telling you that, on it's own, "not liking" reactions is not enough to warrant a vote.

You're also telling me that voting somebody for claiming scum is opportunistic.

Of course i didn't bother correcting them on the indepth analysis thing, it wasn't important. Stop reaching. It's scummy.

[quote="Haylen"

No, the definition of fluff is "To make (something) appear fuller and softer, typically by shaking or brushing it: "I fluffed up the pillows"." Fluffing in the context of Mafia applies to inserting unnecessary content in a post in an effort to make it look like your posting more. Definitions aside, it's pretty clear what Gen is referring to and Haylen transforms it into a semantics argument, in which she basically admits to not scumhunting or generating discussion:

I'm going to pretend this part never happened because

it's going to be some sort of blown up thing again.

I'm clearly wrong

FTFY

Did you honestly think you would be able to make a case of such wrongness and scumminess and think you would get away with it? You talk about semantics? The majority of your argument is some pointless semantic debate. Most of it is reaching, the rest are misreps and taking things entirely out of context. When did I admit to not scumhunting ect? Because during that argument I chose a post of mine that was considered fluff and pointed out where every bit of content was. Btw, this is scumhunting, reading your posts and throwing them back at you, same as what I did with Gen_wolf.

None of post 517 was WIFOM. Fancy pointing out where it is if it exists?

I wasn't refering to you in that last quote.

Lizk

I haven't been posting much because I'm not really sure yet what to say or post, not because i'm scum. since it's the first day

I would never expect a newbiescum to actually tell us in advance that they can't gain much during day one and that they're inactive because of this. If this was the reason for her general inactiveness, then I don't see it as scummy because she was replaced out. Scum would have tried to lurk out as much as possible and join in again for a bit later. Point is she wasn't trying to avoid attention.

Genuine attempts at scumhunting, they don't seem to look made up at all. If Lizk wasn't able to scumhunt very well then there's no way she would have been able to fake it this well.

Ignoring RVS you have changed your vote 7 times!

I've never seen newbie scum make even a weak attempt (like this) at vote count analysis, especially one that claims to be unable to scumhunt properly.

Doesn't seem to have copied anybody attacks ie sheeped or been opportunistic which are traps newbie scum often fall into. Everything she says seems to fit in with what is going on in thread at the time, no misrepping, no fluff. Holds a steady foot on accusations she makes and doesn't stumble over them - newbie scum would have either backed down if the bandwagon wasn't going anywhere or faded into the background when other players started joining the wagon. All votes match her suspicions.

There are many many more reasons for her being town then are are for her being scum, which were quite weak.[/quote]

[Haylen]

Guys, does anyone have any questions for me?

Fancy going through the thread properly and scumhunting?

[Haylen]

I think Haylen is scum for not being able to keep her thoughts straight. Haylen keeps contradicting Haylen's self. Haylen seems really scummy, scummy enough for me to put a vote on Haylen. (no, I don't know Haylen's gender. Lol.)

Any evidence provided for this?

[Haylen]

I'm going to call it on the argument with Quilford, I know what I'm like and will dominate discussion for the rest of the game by refusing to shut it. It would be a very bad idea to continue it because I could and would argue my points until the end of the world. So I'm stopping it now. Conclusion: The case was bad and made Quilford look scummy.

I would be willing to compromise and vote for raceman since I can see an issue there.

Lol, I'll do the ranking thing out of humor.
Prozac
Thor
---
---
Quilford
---
---
---
(...two pages later...)
Hayl - BUT I think it's about time I pulled myself together. Mind Screw V was probably the peak of my crapness and an embarrassment to myself...along with that game where I forgot about the changes to what's considered 'normal' in a normal game and claimed an impossible role. Point is, everyone has shit games and it shouldn't be allowed to influence their next one except to learn from mistakes. Newbies, spectators, if you don't take anything else away from this game, take that because it's really important.

Now lets give it some old Hayl play.

I want the main points on the case on Thor, thorough reasoning and evidence provided, please.

Prozac is replacing Lizk and I'm still convinced that slots town.

Deadline is lurking! We need activity people!

You have nothing else to comment on? Why not try generating discussion yourself if you feel it's lacking?

About Prozac's post (game post 620), I'm not sure why the vote on Thor here, personally if I was going to vote for one of them for it, it would have been Lunita for going along with Thor and buddying. Obviously, I don't like that Thor initiated something like that but I see it as the lesser of two evils in this circumstance.

Haylen looks like she's lurking...

Lol, really? About 7 posts before yours, I made a big post and a few smaller ones.

Wow, you went right on the crazy defensive train there, Haylz. (Haylz makes you sound chavvy, I won't be saying that again) Its not a good look for you.

I know It's in my nature to go out of my way to prove a point hence the quote wars with Quilford.

Raise of hands please. How many people think the Hayl/Quilford thing was town v town? Scum v scum? town v scum?

I need to have a serious think. I'm not going to writing a town list because I don't want to give my top town reads away, but my current top list for scum is Quilford, Gen_Wolf and Racerman.

[Haylen]

It was as I was reading. So it wasn't up to date.

Understood.

[Haylen]

Also, if Shadow flips scum it will prove my innocence and save my life so that is what I have to gain...

Not really. I don't consider someone confirmed until the flip, except with investigation results in an open setup.

[Haylen]

Yep. Considering the two. I think I will vote for Shadow.

Vote Shadow.

[Haylen]

Or, he could tell us during twilight if it's so important to us winning.

[Haylen]

Prozac, will you join me in lynching Thor today?

[Haylen]

Oops. Sorry, forgot about mylo.

Vote No Lynch

[Haylen]

Argh. No, I promise you a scum lynch if we off Thor today.

[Haylen]

Vote Thor.

It's worth it.

[Haylen]

Claim: Cop.

Innocent on Lizk/Prozac from Night One
Guilty on Thor from last night.

Considering the fact I made my investigation so obvious yesterday, I'm worried I was role copped last night and that pushing a Thor lynch today would make it even more blatant.

[Haylen]

Quilford
Gen_Wolf
Porochaz

Confirmed Town

Lunitawolf
Thor665

Confirmed Scum

Haylen

Confirmed Town

Unconfirmed ie Here be One Scum

Quilford
Gen-Wolf
Lunitawolf

Need to do analysis on these three.

[Haylen]

And what does that achieve? A non scum lynch and a town death.

[Haylen]

Because I remembered that the optimum play for cop is to either keep a guilty to yourself in mylo if you think there is no chance you will be killed during the night. I then thought about my behaviour yesterday and thought it was likely the role cop had investigated me during the night, so I outted myself and my results prior to my death. I don't do breadcrumbs before anyone asks.

[Haylen]

Fine. Lynch Thor tomorrow.

Unvote Vote No lynch.

[Haylen]

What makes you think I'm not cop, Lunita? I welcome all counterclaims, btw, makes my job easier.

[Haylen]

I still want to hear from Haylen why she choose each target each night and why she thought she was outed yesterday.

Why does legend seem to have it that Brit's don't sleep?

If you look at the context they were the obvious choice for a cop investigation. Lizk came under heavy fire on Day One and I thought she was more likely to be scum than Effortless. Yesterday, I kept putting off answering Thor's question of why I thought Lizk was town, I couldn't exactly say "Because I got an innocent on her last night" so I had to make something up which took a bit longer. I investigated Thor last night because he was the second most popular bandwagon at the end of yesterday, if I hadn't already been sure of Prozac's innocence after that hammer then I would have investigated him instead. It was a toss up between investigating Thor and Quilford, I doubted that if he was scum then Quilford could manipulate the town very easily during the last few days, Thor however, would be able to so I thought I'd investigate the guy I hoped wasn't scum first in order to get him out of the way faster if he was scum.

Well, I'm happy with a no lynch - bring it on Haylen, because you'll *totally* be killed tonight, amirite?

I well actually. See you in hell! I'll keep a seat warm for you. ^_^

I don't like the timing she declared it after she had already made several other posts including voting no lynch.

I'm paranoid. In the space of those few posts I thought "Crap, I pretty much softly outted myself yesterday aaand I'm going to get killed tonight so I might as well out my guilty" It's optimum cop play.

Plus, she says she doesn't breadcrumb but she also said she was afraid she was outed yesterday as cop

I don't breadcrumb as town because I lack subtlety. I thought I'd outted myself because I randomly came up with 'oh hey, Lizk is town' right at the beginning of Day Two and refused to budge from that.

If scum don't kill her we get te benefit of another night of investigations and the result.

Logically, this doesn't make sense. Why would you want the benefit of another investigation when my lack of being dead will instantly make you suspect me?

@ Gen_Wolf: You'll be voting Thor tomorrow actually.

[Haylen]

We should no lynch. From my point of view it's obvious that we should lynch Thor today, but if I was a VT I know I would be pushing for a no lynch due to paranoia over the cop claim. However, it doesn't make sense that somebody who is scum would claim during mylo, it automatically raises warning bells and would invite a counterclaim or jailkeeping night action if one was in the game. Weighing up the risks, scum would have to be an idiot to claim now with the fact not only could a COP counterclaim but a JAILKEEPER could too.

I think we should take a vote on who I investigate tonight.

[Haylen]

It is interesting that Quilford is willing to follow me blindly.

[Haylen]

So Lunita might be scum.

[Haylen]

Yer...unfortunately since you're confirmed scum to me, I don't have to convince anyone of anything. Thank goodness this setup doesn't have a scum roleblocker!

[Haylen]

Woot! Well that was my 5th time playing a power role and my second time playing cop. Prozac, do you think I did the right thing in outting my reads when I did? I investigated Lunita on the night I died, so I pretty much knew she was town. I was so so sure Quilford was scum, it's a pity we didn't lynch him earlier. And yeah, I'd have offed Prozac too if I was in the scumteams position rather than the cop.

[Haylen]

Lol, the funny thing is I apparently played badly, yet was quickly convinced Quilford was scum when he joined the game. I had Thor down as a gut scum read for ages. Also correct at being role copped.

[Haylen]

If you had us read as scum so functionally you should have done a lot more to get one of us lynched sooner. Let's be honest, that's what you need to do with scum reads instead of letting them rampage around and lead lynches.

To quote Flay, as town, it's much easier to be catch scum then it is to lead a lynch on them. You were going to be lynched that day anyway, you did that yourself so I wouldn't say you played that great either. The lurking was intentional, lurking's stop scum night killing me before, it worked pretty well this time. You still make me annoyed.