Newbie 1248 (GAME OVER)

[wombat99]

Hello everyone. I am in the middle of my first-ever game on another board, and this will be my first game on this board. So far I have learned... That there's so much to learn

I am GMT -5 (US CDT)
Voting - I see it as a tool to elicit responses and information, also as a record of a players thought process as the game progresses. RVS - not useful other than just getting general conversation going.
Lynch all liars/lynch all lurkers: The game is not that black and white. Lurking and lying could be anti-town but not necessarily scum behavior.

[wombat99]

Wombat, is there a way to discourage anti-town behaviour other than lynching it ? Does not lynching anti-town give scum a free pass?

I don't think it gives scum a free pass. Scum are not going to do something obviously anti-town if they are trying to pass as town. Wouldn't it be just as likely that a newbie Townie would do something anti-town inadvertently?

[wombat99]

Wombat, is there a way to discourage anti-town behaviour other than lynching it ? Does not lynching anti-town give scum a free pass?

I don't think it gives scum a free pass. Scum are not going to do something obviously anti-town if they are trying to pass as town. Wouldn't it be just as likely that a newbie Townie would do something anti-town inadvertently?

There is a problem with this logic. The moment that you declare that anti-town behaviour is more likely to come from town than scum, you are effectively giving scum permission to act that way. On the flip side, if you lynch anti-town behaviour, scum are forced to be pro-town, which restricts their freedom, and any mislynches are from anti-town town, which weren't helping town win anyway

I see your point.

[wombat99]

That is patently false LC. You may think that an RVS isn't helpful, and I'd agree with you, but to say it doesn't exist as a concept is wrong. As an SE please try and be clear about when you're giving your opinion.

Also, it's a weekend , so let's not get worked up about some players not posting.

I think he's saying there's not an official RVStage with an ending time then suddenly mafia becomes serious.

Vote Seacore

for either skimming or being deliberately obtuse.



And.... errr.... on a totally unrelated note, I appreciate your guidance during this game, Seacore!

[wombat99]

Is skimming and/or being obtuse scummy? Why?

Anti-town at best. intentionally ignoring or glossing over something might be scummy.

[wombat99]

OK, so to generate discusion, how does everyone feel about Arinna's town read on Chronos and vote on Axxle from Post 25 (<--- I think I did that right, if not just look at post 25). I think it seems rather scummy, anyone else see any validity in her town read, do you think she could be scumbuddies with Chronos and trying to protect him early? Does anyone want to submit any thought at all?

Ah, replace all references to wombat from he to she in my post. Failed to check info for that, sorry wombat.

Arinna strikes me as one of those people with strong convictions fast and early, grabbing at every bit of evidence she can. And that's good. Especially at these early stages. I think she'll sound as convinced at every stage of the game, whether or not she is able to change those ideas of who's town or not remains to be seen.

That's ok Axxle. Actually I just updated my profile yesterday so I was asexual until then

I agree with your take on Arinna's play style. Actually I get a bit of a "prepared to the point of being scripted" vibe from her, for lack of a better term, as if she had decided at the outset what her opening gambit would be: discuss RVS then vote for someone who disagrees with her. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[wombat99]

And in fact, my town read on Lord Chronos has slid back to a null. Lord Chronos, Wombat, Seacore, Mortontfrh, Balnazzar, what do you think of Hyperion's attacks on me?

Axxle, Hyperion, Mortontfrh, Balnazzar, what do you think about this theoretical discussion that has been going on? (To clarify, I am not asking you about the RVS, but what has been going on between Chronos, Wombat and Seacore, and its implications, if any.)

You stated that you have a Town read on Chronos but backed off as soon as you were questioned by Hyperion (not "attacked"). You are pinging me.

[wombat99]

NETA: I fail at tablet quoting. The second paragraph in my quote above was said by Hyperion, not Arinna.

[wombat99]

OK, so Axxle is starting to be ridiculous attacking Seacore. Is he just doing that because Seacore said Wombat was town because newbscum wouldn't attack the IC, and Axxle wants him to say Axxle looks town for the same reason?

That would be silly for him think I'm town for attacking him after he made a post like that. I'm pressuring him for a few reasons. Many (not all) of his previous posts had been terse. Because some had been lengthy I knew that I should be able to get more out of him. I also did get a scummy vibe (after the fact) from him reading way too much into LC's post about RVS, which also created the first second vote on someone.

Sorry I'm too pushy Seacore, I'm used to another forum where I get incredibly prompt responses from people in just one mafia game.

@Arinna: The only reason I think LC is scummy is that he's misrepresenting my stance on his post regarding RVS.

I got what I wanted out of Seacore, well a little more than what I wanted because of all the flak, but I'm going to move on.

VOTE: crabbyman66

you're not going to be able to be that meek and lurky crabbyman. Speak now, or... eh, just respond to something. What about Arinna's queston: "Axxle, Hyperion, Mortontfrh, Balnazzar, what do you think about this theoretical discussion that has been going on? (To clarify, I am not asking you about the RVS, but what has been going on between Chronos, Wombat and Seacore, and its implications, if any.)"

... wait... Why did you leave out crabbyman, Arinna?

I had the same thought: Axxle tried to get some townie cred by picking a fight with the IC. He is used to a faster moving game, so he did not wait long before doing it. In a slower-moving game like this, it sticks out.

His reasons for pushing Seacore are weak: for being terse and lengthy, and a previously-unmentioned scummy vibe. He says he got what he needed from Seacore but is vague about what that is that he got.

Then directs attention to Arinna and Crabbyman. (Nothing more to see here, move along)...

[wombat99]

Seacore, can you speak to this: I've never played in a hammer vote game. What is the protocol - Hyperion's hesitation to vote has made me hesitate, too. Is it good form to vote to lynch or go to L-1 when we have a newly-subbed-in player we have not heard from yet?

[wombat99]

I'm not sure what you mean by a 'hammer vote game' so please explain that, but...

hammer vote=Day ends when the lynch vote is placed, as opposed to the Day lasting a specified number of days. When you vote to lynch you are dropping the hammer on that person.

I am against prolonging the Day once a lynch candidate has been determined and everyone has had their say and the L-1 has had a chance to defend and claim, as described by Seacore. (Very helpful, thank you.) Why give scum more info to take into into Night as they are deciding who to NK? The info-gathering can pick up again on the next Day.

(in my other game we had this debate. We had an obvious lynch candidate, discussion was over and the mod offered to let us vote to End the Day. We did not, and a PR was outed.)

[wombat99]

After reading Wombat's comments about me, I felt as though she was trying to make me look scummy; however, I am almost completely sure that this is an OMGUS reaction, so I am disregarding this feeling, and writing it down just in case. In fact, Wombat, may I also request what you think of everyone else, with the reasons stated?

I wasn't trying to make you look scummy; I was just making an observation. You gave me a scum ping and I shared that information.

Axxle: My strongest scum lean because of this:

I had the same thought: Axxle tried to get some townie cred by picking a fight with the IC. He is used to a faster moving game, so he did not wait long before doing it. In a slower-moving game like this, it sticks out.

His reasons for pushing Seacore are weak: for being terse and lengthy, and a previously-unmentioned scummy vibe. He says he got what he needed from Seacore but is vague about what that is that he got.

Then directs attention to Arinna and Crabbyman. (Nothing more to see here, move along)...

Kalbim: I think his posts are rushed, maybe because he is trying to get into the game quickly, and I'm reserving judgment until he's had a day or two to post something more fully-thought-out. (If this is as thought-out as he gets, then we have a problem).

Hyperion: decent town-vibes. Very detailed analysis of the other players and contributing a lot of good content. *Very* slight possibility he is scum, but playing the helpful-townie.

Lord Chronos: neutral. His posts have a certain confidence level, or cockiness, or something (I do not mean that in a bad way) and I don't know what that means but I feel it should be telling me something.

Seacore: Town lean but honestly he's got a big advantage over us (me, at least) and if he is scum, it's going to be a while before we can deduce that. He's not going to make an obvious slipup.

Soradvent: not enough information from him yet.

So since Axxle is my strongest scum lean and now that I can vote for him without putting him at L-1, I will do so:

Unvote Seacore

Vote Axxle

[wombat99]

kalbim is in my "willing to lynch today" list. So we'll give Chaos some time to catch up and then I'll be putting kalbim at L-1

You feel strongly enough that kalbim is scum to put him at L-1 and not Axxle?

Do we have enough info on SoraAdvent and ChaosOmega to move to L-1?

[wombat99]

I would like to hear from Seacore before lynching Axxle - why Kalbim over Axxle?

[wombat99]

I would like to hear from Seacore before lynching Axxle - why Kalbim over Axxle?

I'm happy for either, but I was already voting axxle, so I couldn't bring him closer to the lynch.

I see, you were planning to put lynch pressure on Kalbim, but decided not to. Is there no benefit to doing that Today vs. Tomorrow?

At any rate, I'm comfortable with lynching Axxle and ending Day.

[wombat99]

Axxle, why aren't you voting? If you voted for Kalbim you would be tied.

[wombat99]

I'd rather lynch kalbim, but I still think axxle is scum. I think kalbim has come in, scum slipped and is now terrified of posting.

Then why don't you change your vote?

[wombat99]

@Mod - Axxle voted for Kalbim, #184

This puts both Kalbim and Axxle at L-1, correct?

[wombat99]

Vote Kalbim

I think a damning piece of evidence is that when Axxle was at L-1, he did not vote for Kalbim until prodded to do so (which tied the vote). Why else would you *not* vote to potentially save yourself - unless you did not want to endanger the Mafia Rolecop?

It could have just been an oversight on Axxle's part, i suppose, but surely he was paying attention to the vote since he was about to be lynched.

[wombat99]

Hello Regfan. I'm curious about your statement, "worth replacing into or not." Do you prefer some roles over others?

[wombat99]

I had a strongish town read on Wombat earlier however upon trying re-read him to explain it I'm finding that the entire reasoning is pretty much based on Axxles interactions with him and little else, and in that interaction it's not even much, it's just that in Post 38 he could have easily created justification for plopping his vote on LC rather than Wombat so the fact that he didn't means he's more than likely voted a townie. I do have a few small issues with his posts though, specifically his pointing out of Axxles name missing on the vote-count and them both being placed on L-1 seems like a subtlish creation/securing of a counterwagon, him asking Seacore why he hasn't changed when Seacore showed uncertaintly is almost the same thing as well. I'd greatly appreciate if other people including Seacore voiced their thoughts on him before the day ends at least because he's probably my biggest wild card read right now.

I wasn't creating a counterwagon, I wanted to know why Axxle wasn't voting Kalbim to tie the vote and possibly save himself. That's why I pointed out the missing vote and prodded Axxle on that. Seacore wasn't showing uncertainty, he said that he preferred to lynch Kalbim but was not voting for him and I wanted to know why.

The fact remains that Axxle hesitated and did not vote Kalbim when he could have tied the vote and there was a decent chance that Kalbim could have been lynched instead of himself. The only reason for this is that Axxle was reluctant to put his Rolecop scum teammate in danger.

[wombat99]

Re: the jailkeeper claiming. I thought I understood the jailkeeper role but explain please why is it that whoever the jailkeeper targeted last Night would be confirmed town?

[wombat99]

Wombat, it's not creating a counterwagon, but it's subtly pushing it forward. Anyway it's a small thing that was bugging me and just want to hear others thoughts on it.

Jailkeeper role is essentially a town roleblocker at this point. That being that a person jailed cannot submit a night action successfully on the night they're jailed. This means that if mafia were jailed they would be unable to submit a night kill. Since there was a night kill the player that was jailed cannot be mafia and thus are clear.

Ah, of course. Duh. Thanks for explaining that which should have been blindingly obvious to me.

The proposal to have the Jailkeeper claim if there is one: is losing the Jailkeeper worth 2 confirmed Town? (Assuming worst case scenario and the Jailkeeper was killed after claiming). If that is an acceptable trade off - a PR to confirm 2 town - then I'm in favor of it.

OTOH, this proposal could be an excellent ploy by the Mafia Rolecop to (1) get lots of townie cred and (2) flush out a PR. The first thing he'd have to do is at least gain enough trust to save himself from Today's lynch, (get out of the big hole Kalbim dug) and playing the extremely helpful Townie is a way to do that.

[wombat99]

Okay, and that's three of us pro JK claim, everybody else should weigh in.

You can count me in the pro-JK claim group also, after reading your's and regfan's explanations, yes, it makes perfect sense.

[wombat99]

Also Wombat, while I love what effectively is confrimation bias on your front when it comes to stating you suspect this slot, you're missing a lot of things that make it obvtown. For instance the fact that Chaos was the sole person in the entire room that stated he had a town-read on my predecessor yet he was the person N1'ed should be highly telling, if you believe that Kablim is the sort of person that would "WIFOM" with the NKs in that sort of manner then I don't know what to say to you.

That's a good point. Why *was* Chaos NKd? Just to take out an SE? I don't see anything in his posts to indicate he had a PR that would draw the kill.

[wombat99]

Unvote Regfan

Well. Congratulations, Regfan, Giitah, and MT, now I have absolutely no idea who to vote.

MT, when I first read this post

Hi. Not-JK.

I've read through the thread, but I've got some bullshit to take care of today. I will however post my thoughts later today. Btw, we aren't lynching Regfan.

I thought you were soft-claiming Cop and confirming Regfan as Town. (You aren't doing that, are you?)

[wombat99]

Ugh, Wombat. Awesome work. If MT was softclaiming, why the hell would you draw attention to it? If you see a soft claim, leave it alone until it becomes relevant. Like if Regfan was at L-1, then you bring it up.

I drew attention to it because it could have been scum false-claiming Cop. Why would MT state so forcefully right off the bat that we aren't lynching Regfan? Regfan wasn't at L-1, MT had time to come back and make his case defending Regfan (which he's done).

[wombat99]

Busy tonight, somewhere to go tomorrow. Will get back to this hopefully tomorrow night.

I'm willing to hammer Giitah. Do we wait for him to come back tonight and post?

[wombat99]

Well done everyone. Regfan, brilliant turnaround of Kalbim's slot and Giitah, well if we hadn't had a doc you'd have made the game very interesting.

[wombat99]

Thanks for the feedback, Seacore. I appreciate it.