Newbie 1289 - Game Over!

[Airick10]

I don't see how a no lynch benefits the town. A random vote is simply a random vote just to start conversation.

[Airick10]

Out of curiosity PaperSpirit, how many games have you played?

[Airick10]

In my opinion, voting no lynch in Day 1 would put you under the spotlight as doing that really isn't beneficial to the town. Thus, it's a scummy move. Vendetta acknowledges that and voted for you. I just want to chulk it up as a point brought up by a new player and nothing more. I think Vendetta is jumping the gun a bit.

[Airick10]

Absolutely it wasn't random. In my view, it's a tad pre-mature. He is making a simple point and voting.

[Airick10]

RVS is not a necessity; I prefer to do away with it ASAP and my ovyo is not random.

Why the vote on Sylvant? The only significant post he had was voting for PaperSpirit. Are you implying that you do not think that was a random vote on Sylvant's part?

By the way, I would not consider any vote from here on out random.

[Airick10]

Wow, I just realized I haven't looked at page 3 yet! I'll re-read.

[Airick10]

Tierce - I agree with you on your read on PaperSpirit. I had the same read and felt like asking the obvious question in page 1. I do not agree with your read on Sylvant/ovyo, but it is still early. I do find it odd that Sylvant voted PaperSpirit after PaperSpirit's post about a no-lynch. Random or not? We will never know as ovyo can not defend that action.

What is your read on Vendetta? He voted PaperSpirit too, and it clearly was not random. It seemed like that was a quick and easy vote on a newbie jumping on a bandwagon. That is my read anyway as he unvotes right after seeing that's where the spotlight was at the time.

Even when the unvote, it appears he believes PaperSpirit is scummy or waiting for PaperSpirit to slip up.

Vote: Vendetta21

[Airick10]

Would you say that it is more reasonable of someone to make a random vote than make a vote based on a very limited amount of information?

A random vote is just that. A random vote. Usually the purpose behind it can be a conversation starter to get the game rolling along. Many reasons exist for voting for somebody, but I personally don't take a random vote all that serious.

[Airick10]

@Airick10: Why do you think that Sylvant voted me was odd, when yourself said that voting no lynch in day 1 would put you under the spotlight, aka odd? Besides, voting on someone just adds some pressure and creates a conversation

As I've stated, your no-lynch proposal is a scummy move and it is easy for others to immediately vote you on that alone. It is justifiable at the time. I did not look at that as scummy, rather than you just being a new player putting a proposal on the table. That is why I asked how many games you've played. I find it odd how Sylvant's vote, which I'm pretty sure was random, just happened to be on you after your no-lynch proposal. Vendetta's vote was not random.

[Airick10]

You disagree but you find it odd. Which is it? 'Odd' needs elaboration.

This is not a black and white thing. I disagree with Tierce that Sylvant is scum based on his vote. I believe Sylvant's vote was random, but for the timing of the post, the question has to be asked. Player A posts something scummy, Player B votes in what looks like random, Player C votes in what is intentional. Player C is being called out on his actions, why not Player B? Again, I do not look at Sylvant's vote as scummy as Tierce does, but I understand his position and do find it odd that a random vote just happened to be on what was the scummiest post of the game at that time.

[Airick10]

Unvote

I am not comfortable putting Vendetta at L1 just yet. This day has been about theory talk and PaperSpirit's no-lynch post. I think we can get more information before someone hammers.

[Airick10]

I'm going to be on vacation starting today through this upcoming Monday. FYI

[Airick10]

Quick post - I got the prod e-mail. I am on vacation (see post 135). I'll be back tomorrow and will read up.

[Airick10]

Reponding to Natural_river:

but to me it seems like a bunch of bickering that started somewhere with correcting each other about gameplay.
I'm afraid the real mafia is lurking in the shadows.

This is absolutely right on the money. Although, I suspect there is one scum between buldermar, Tierce, and vendetta. The other scum is quietly letting them take over the game. Let one scum stir the pot and distract the town, while the other just waits.

Putting that aside, here's my question.

For some reason ovyo seems most suspicious to me.

I'm really not sure, but DeltaBacon and Vendetta sound a little off to me

In post 161, you say "This doesn't sound like a good reason to suspect anyone either." So what is the difference between this reasoning and your own reasoning against ovyo?

I agree with the suspecion on ovyo for the fact that she came into the game replacing a slot that already had a non-random vote casted upon it. Certainly in posts, she is throwing down the "I'm new, don't kill me" card. Placing a random vote immediately, acknowledging she may be coming across scummy, and posting three posts wondering why a vote is placed on her does not give me confidence that she is playing pro-town. I've always thought that slot/player is town, but taking advantage of the mexican stand off between vendetta, Tierce, and buldermar by lurking certainly brings cause to suspecion.

Tierce, will you consider replacing out? I request this not because of your role as the IC (although I think that too would be sufficient reason), but because you're being active in other games while deliberately neglecting this. If you were temporarily preoccupied with something else I'd look at it differently, but this seems like a more permanent issue.

Initially I wanted to refrain from making this request because you're currently voting me and it could look as if that is my motive

, but with the current level of activity in this game, some of the inactive players simply has to be replaced, and I'd much rather have it done now than on a later day. If you will not replace out, at least consider prioritizing this game equally to other games.

In response to the quote in bold - Yes, absolutely it does.

In response to this whole quote, I find it incredibly scummy (and very OMGUS) to ask an active player who has posted more then half the players in this game to consider flat out leaving.

Is Tierce just not playing the game you want to play? Are you intimidated by Tierce? Much of this game theory talk has been initiated and continued by you. It adds nothing to the game outside of distracting us with posts that we don't care about. Why have you not voted Tierce? Do you find vendetta scummier? I count 8 posts by vendetta and 18 posts by Tierce. Why are you not asking vendetta to leave the game?

Vote: buldermar

[Airick10]

Actually, that request isn't scummy at all. He is asking me to increase my activity level--how on earth does that read like scum to you, when a town IC that isn't pulling their full weight is one of the best gifts scum could hope for?

How is it not scummy? I find it to be a OMGUS style post. Honestly, I haven't seen that kind of a request in a game before. I am looking at you as a participant of the game, not as an IC and I do not expect your activity level to be any higher because of that label.

Natural_river - Yes, I quoted that one part of the message, but the rest of the message really implies that ovyo is lurking. I think that's a well known thing at this point. I'm not saying you are scum, but I'm asking a question in response to your vote.

I looked more into ovyo's posts, it seems to me like ovyo really had no clue what was going on.
ovyo jumped in a game that happened to have Tierce and buldermar in it. Both very fierce players, lots of text, lots of BOOM BAM BAM!
Honestly, I think that's why we don't see ovyo in this game anymore.

Also that and the fact that ovyo has also cancelled her ( she's a girl, yes ) second game as well due to "homework."
I don't think a beginner would think that far ahead to cover her tracks if she was mafia.
I don't know if it's homework stopping her, but I don't think she's mafia, I think she just has no idea what's going on really.

Agreed, I have my suspecions, but I think this is a good point to what may be really going on with ovyo.

Also, I agree with RedRabbit and do not see glaring scum in Deltabacon. Sure, I would like to see him focus on something other then Tierce's Sylvant/Oyvo and PaperSpirit read, but he's asking reasonable questions to me. I don't look at the "going to kick all your arses at mafia" from the first post of the game as anything legit.

[Airick10]

I don't have a strong read on DeltaBacon being scum, although I do agree with RedRabbit that it's a risky strategy on his part.

I like to look for scum one by one. I do not like to group them together, because scum typically won't like to be seen tied to each other. It's too obvious. If buldermar is lynched, you are correct in saying at least one of those who votes buldermar is indeed scum (majority vote).

This has been one of the strangest games I've played at this point, it's hard to get a real good read due to replacements, distractions, and odd requests.

I do not believe DeltaBacon is scum and will not cast a vote on who I think is a townie. Along that same line, I understand buldermar's response to his request to Tierce to replace out. Acknowledging the scummy move and not pushing the request any further cools my suspecions of buldermar.

Unvote

I know this looks like a scummy move, especially to Delta's eyes as I'm backing off the buldermar lynch and not voting on Delta. Frankly, I do not have a solid scum read at this point and as I said, I don't want to vote on somebody who I do not think is scum.

[Airick10]

Delta just said he tried to play it scummy. He admitted this. So it comes down to two things: 1. He's lying and actually is scum, or, 2. he's town and has tried to play a very strange fake.

I can't see how you think it's 2 and if it is 2 then he should be lynched for even trying something so audacious.

So call me naive, but I think I understand what he is trying to do. It is a different style/strategy, which I think is why most of the town is balking at it. Let's say he is town. Since it takes 5 to lynch, the numbers say at least one of those five will be scum. It is reasonable to expect the town to look at those five who voted him as possible scum. If he is scum, then you are correct with option 1. It's a hail mary pass, and he's at L-1 at this point. Sure, he has shown scummy signs (scumhunting only Tierce, calling for activity when he himself didn't show much at all) but in a game where there has not been a whole lot of scumhunting, I am willing to buy the fact he is town and not place a vote on him. If he is lynched, that's fine and we will get the information I am looking for. Yes, I'm playing cautious because I am not convinced he is scum.

My question to Delta is why play in this 'sacrifice' manner? As you mentioned, is this game really a strategy experiment for future games?

[Airick10]

Sorry for the inactivity. I've been bogged down with work and go home late last night.

I agree that many N1 kills are for on the IC on the game, just added in the newb factor. buldermar, correct me if I'm wrong, would the mod mention if a player was not killed due to protection during the night or not? You're correct that is a possibility as well.

But i'm kinda confused with the kill, Tierce is leading the charge mostly in this game so most scum would have likely killed her (not to mention she is the IC that is like newb kill central) yet she is still alive, which makes me concerned for 3 reasons
1) The obv-town read on my slot may not be from experience but a mix of experience and prior knowledge
2) That she lead a lynch on Delta, even though she said it was more likely to be scum in CD/Leon
3) Is steering as far away from a CD/Leon lynch in her recent posting.

These are excellent points and I'm troubled that Tierce's only response to this is saying that yes, she led a mislynch yesterday. It's not a requirement to defend poitns against you, and I don't always look into that. But it's another thing to not say anything wishing it goes away, which it has to some degree.

Tierce - Tierce is always town, except when she isn't. We have a history. I don't flatter myself that I can read her perfectly, but she's by no means today's lynch.

I'm not going to say Tierce is today's lynch. But implying that there is a history and that you can read her perfectly does not mean much to me in this game. Reading through this, I'm sure you can see this is quite a unique game. I'm not convinced you are town or Tierce is town just because you two have a history.

Responding to your vote on Leonshade, one of the primary scum reads was going to be on Leonshade anyway coming into D2. Scum would have to expect that, so what makes RedRabbit special enough?

Why is not voting on delta a scummy move to delta's eyes?

Refer to post #255. Delta says he is playing scummy to lure scum to defend him. His theory was that since buldermar had the other votes, scum most likely lies between them all (vendetta, myself, CD, and Leonshade).

My vote was on buldermar due to his request to Tierce to replace out of the game which I thought was quite a scummy move. I explained in my post #271 that I accepted his response and did not continue with the request on Tierce. So I unvoted.

I unvoted buldermar (off Delta's suspecion list in his eyes) and always believed Delta to be town (defending him). Thus, I would imagine in Delta's eyes my unvote was a scummy move.

[Airick10]

Tierce or mod (whoever can answer this) - since vendetta was replaced during the night, let's say vendetta had a night action available. Would vendetta or Xalxe have the chance to perform the night action? If it was vendetta, then I can assume he was inactive and did not do any night action?

[Airick10]

Thanks for the answers.

RedRabbit's focus was on Delta's alignment theory. According to Delta's read, vendetta, myself, CD, and Leonshade were scum since they never came to defend him due to our votes on buldermar. Delta showed his hand.

RedRabbit's take in post #312 says because of Delta's announcement, scum will jump over to the Delta bandwagon. More specifically one scum will jump, one will stay.

The final results read that CD and Leonshade switched to Delta and voted him. vendetta stayed on buldermar and I unvoted. According to Delta's theory, scum would split one voting for Delta and one voting (or was voting) for buldermar. That leaves CD or Leonshade as scum and vendetta or myself as scum.

To answer your question on why I think RedRabbit was killed, he already had a bigger scumread on Leonshade. Perhaps your theory of Leonshade killing him as a result of this is correct. But because scum would know we are asking this question (why was RedRabbit killed), we would easily look to the Leonshade read RedRabbit had and lynch another townie. Since CD and Leonshade both moved over to the Delta lynch, that would leave CD as scum. You can read into that, or it can be looked at as a WIFOM argument.

Since Delta turned town, I will go along with his theory and try to find one scum. Since I am town, I will vote for the other half of the buldermar/unvote group.

Vote: Xalxe

I will have to assume vendetta did not perform any night action, but his partner obviously is in tune to the Delta & RedRabbit alignment discussion.

[Airick10]

You are correct and I eluded to it being a WIFOM argument.

Xalxe's answer to the RedRabbit question is the one half of the WIFOM argument. I presented the other half as a potential answer. The question of "Why RedRabbit was killed?" does hold some barring logically as it is one of three bits of concrete information that we have on this game. 1) DeltaBacon was town. 2) RedRabbit was town. 3) Scum chose to kill RedRabbit. So it's a reasonable and logical question to ask why. Scum knows (or should know) that we will dissect why RedRabbit was killed. You're saying it doesn't make any sense because it could vary on who is scum. That's true, but perhaps there is a clue out there that can help us find that scum. In my view, it's not a one way thing but I certainly understand your position.

[Airick10]

Yes, for two reasons.

- He was correct in his claim as townie and so far his theory has not been disproven.

- I do not see any other scum reads during this day so far to say who is scum or not. I agree with JasonWazza's take on Tierce, but hasn't really gotten any legs, especially while Tierce is hibernating.

Working with the facts we know, I am going along with the theory unless I get a glaring scum read on someone else. I am looking for one scum today.

[Airick10]

Throughout D1 and towards the end of D1, I had no significant reads. Yes, I voted vendetta early on and you have pointed out posts that I did find him suspecious, but I was not convinced he was scum. It was inevidable the town was going to lynch Delta, a vote on vendetta based on a gut feeling and what I believed to be some distraction work with theory talk would not meant anything at that time.

I don't see any Town motivation to ask this, as we know there was a kill and whether or not vendetta performed it is irrelevant since there are two scum. I am, however, kind of tempted to call Airick goon to Xalxe/vendetta's rolecop.

Are you trying to imply that having an idea if one or two people made the decision to kill RedRabbit is not town motivation? Why RedRabbit was killed matters as you elude to later on in your post quoting RedRabbit and gathering his reads. I am looking for one scum today and if I can look back and find information on vendetta and/or anyone else's interaction with RedRabbit is relevant.

This is posturing and an easy excuse for using someone else's reads. There is also no way Town can be sure (or should even assume) that vendetta was not active during night, or that izak didn't allow the slot's partner to perform an action for him in case Xalxe/vendetta is scum.

No, this is logic. You led the town on a Delta lynch that turned townie. The majority of the town threw away Delta's theory thinking it could not possibly work. So far, you have been proven wrong, not Delta.

If scum would split up off the buldermar vote and one goes to CD/LeonShade and one stays on buldermar or unvotes, then you have to look at those two pairs with one scum hiding in each. I am not scum, therefore my vote lies with Xalxe (the vendetta slot).

You are turning my vote into an emotional vote, where my vote is strictly logical. The question on if vendetta performed a night action or not is irrelevant on my vote. I asked the question because I'm looking for information. You are looking to rally a wagon based off what you think is an emotional read.

Xalxe - You mention in post 369 that you are trying to find a reason that RedRabbit was killed. Do you have any other further analysis?

[Airick10]

Really?

So there has been inactivity in this game over the weekend. I am waiting for responses as I had nothing more to say on my analysis. Please continue to log everytime I come in to see if anyone has posted anything in 48 hours or if I want to put a post up myself.

[Airick10]

Referencing players and playing style in other games does not mean they will play the same way here. Such as telling the town they know someone's style, so they are obvtown. I've seen this throughout this game and I frown on it. My two cents on that... cling! cling!

I agree with Tierce in saying that she (and myself) do not have any idea what actually happened with the cheater. I can understand CD's theory, but I don't see any facts sitting behind it.

If scum would split up off the buldermar vote and one goes to CD/LeonShade and one stays on buldermar or unvotes, then you have to look at those two pairs with one scum hiding in each. I am not scum, therefore my vote lies with Xalxe (the vendetta slot).

This division doesn't always happen.

Therefore it simply just can not happen?

[Airick10]

I should clear up that in referencing players, I was responding to CD's take on ovyo's play in another game.

[Airick10]

I did not say that. I just think your vote is cheap and uses poor justification altogether, as the reasons you are presenting for voting Xalxe are based on math alone and you have long dropped whatever his predecessor did that was bugging you. My conclusion is that you 'lost' interest on an inactive slot because you didn't have weight to make a bus look good there and had rather see a mislynch go through. For someone who so opposed the Deltabacon lynch as you apparently did, there was a remarkable lack of pushing on anyone else, vendetta/Xalxe included. You were not voting at the end of D1.

You are drawing conclusions off a gut feeling. I am drawing conclusions off information that we already know. What more do I need to push on vendetta/Xalxe on? You've said it yourself, I am voting on Xalxe based on math alone. How is that in anyway a cheap vote? I consider it the most justified vote based upon the facts.

I did not join in on your Deltabacon led lynch because I did not think he was scum. If I absolutely believed vendetta was scum at that time, I'd have no reason to unvote him when he was at L-1. I am not interested in finding someone to latch onto and push to lynch them without knowing the evidence. We are here to find scum. It was inevitable Delta was going to be lynched, even Delta would agree with that. I do not have to put a vote down on somebody if I did not believe they were scum when a lynch occurs. When Delta flipped town, it made quite an easy logical read for me.

[Airick10]

The suspicions of the slot date back to earlier in the game where vendetta put a vote on an obvious newbie suggestion from PaperSpirit. I looked at it as trying to start a bandwagon, but noticed resistance and he backed off. Also, the constant theory talk between Tierce, buldermar, and vendetta looked to me as a distraction to the game and I suspected one of them as scum to keep that distraction present.

Strong reads or not, at that time that was the suspicion. I did not have a true feeling that vendetta was scum, but he came across to me as the scummiest of the game.

However, my vote in D2 comes off Delta's theory. Xalxe has stayed pretty quiet as well as the rest of the game giving us really very little information in D2. So, I do not have any further reads.

[Airick10]

So what I have a feeling will be my final words, I would share my concerns to the town. I did claim in post 372. But again, I am a vanilla townie.

- Tierce's case on me reflects actions in D1, and very little in D2. She has called my vote cheap with poor justification. Instead of really diving into the D2 analysis, the focus stays on D1 play and what she says is lurkiness on my part. I will point out that through all of the headaches from this game, Tierce, buldermar, and I are the only originals left. Tierce led the DeltaBacon lynch, and she's leading this lynch.

- I am voting on the vendetta slot. However, outside of post 343 where he gives his take on who is town and who isn't (with really no reasons why), what contributions has Xalxe made to the day since he replaced vendetta? He hasn't had anything to add to the discussion for some time. And Tierce says I'm the one who is lurking.

- What is buldermar's take on this lynch? Is he flat out just ignoring the whole game?

- Although CD has challenged a few points on both sides, Leonshade appears to follow what the popular mob is doing. He's even said in post #400 that the game is confusing and we need to get a wagon going. Well, the wagon is here and he's ready to hammer.

I fear the town will lynch another townie and will look back at D2 as a complete waste. Very little information has been analyzed from what we got from the night action in D1. Xalxe, buldemar, and Leonshade have contributed very little. Tierce created another wagon against another townie.

[Airick10]

One more thing, my vote is on Xalxe. But since it will be a topic for D3, I would strongly suggest Leonshade is the scum partner.

[Airick10]

Good game all