Newbie 1,304 (Game over!)

[uctriton00]

Page 7 and I didn't even know the game started. Reading tonight.

[uctriton00]

Comments on what I've seen so far:

- Quick v Day 1 lynching
Leviathan: do you know what the difference is? If so, what's the best town move?

- #88 Vinter
That's town enough for me. Excellent ISO and analysis and I believe it all. Moving on.

- Thor's aggression
Thor's ISO shows he is naturally a high-volume poster. The thing is, I think wasting a vote on him today won't be efficient. He's likely going to keep on spilling his face more and more info, and will either 1) provide a useful read, 2) provide a good scumtell, or 3) something interesting. I can't see him scummy for throwing out his vote so quickly and moving the game out of RVS so aggressively.

- Zabriel's wagon
I'm not understanding it yet; but I want to see what Zab says first.

[uctriton00]

Ow my prod.

I'll be able to check this while at lunch at work. Holiday season be cray

[uctriton00]

I've re-read the game again. If there are grammar mistakes in this post it's because of phone typing.

Thor still comes off to me as the aggressive poster who likes to run the game. It's not an alignment tell, it's a mere fact that as long as you get through the fluff, he's providing enough content not to die today.

Mirhawk is reading Thor the same way I do. As I see, he's leaning town but that's

No feelings changed on vinter since mid game. Leviathan just comes off like a newb town. Keep an eye on that to see if he can keep it up or if he scum slips while trying to keep up a facade if the newb town is indeed fake. No votes their either for them.

You know who I don't like? Slimer.

The beginning of slimer's game is like mine: we both joined in the middle since we didn't see the start. But slimer began asking for reads. It's a fishy way to get people to put out their reads so you can jump onto bandwagons with othe people's logic.

And look at vote 187, it looks very blah. Looks like a stretched excuse to vote someone.
And holy crap at 216. Just stop, you're toast today.

[uctriton00]

Ad what's really bothering me is that I haven't had any votes for some reason. Never let a lurker sit that long, ever. Why did I get no votes?

[uctriton00]

Please don't replace that slot out. Slimer needs to go down with the ship. I don't want slimer successfully ditching possible scum meta history.

Sorry for not participating as much but holidays are over and I'm back to free time.

Vote: slimer

[uctriton00]

Vote was coming in that post, wanted to make it last thing I saw an then I saw the request to replace.

[uctriton00]

I'm a jailkeeper, a valuable asset to the team,

We have had a

claim

, people.

If there is a REAL jailkeeper among you, please post and say that you're the real jailkeeper, and that slimer is in fact lying about their role. Don't do this by quoting the PM, just say "yes I'm the actual jailkeeper".

Don't think "but I don't want to die!". You're not GOING to die by counterclaiming, you're helping the town. The town will not lynch you during the day. And at night, you can defend yourself by using your jailkeeper power. It is worth it, and you would be a clear candidate for MVP if you provide the counter claim.

And Thor that was an L-2, what are you talking about. There were 2 votes at the time. Was the VC wrong?

[uctriton00]

Not NOW, I meant back THEN when i made the vote. Of course I can see the vote count above my head right now.

[uctriton00]

It was Mirhawk #286. The vote was pushed off the side of the screen.

[uctriton00]

1 for 1 trades are always worth it.

A Day 1 mafia kill? That's gold.

[uctriton00]

Because at that point, their claim is good and they'd in fact be the real jailkeeper with slimer being caught in a lie.

[uctriton00]

There's lurking for the sake of lurking and there's lurking because pretty much all over the site, all games were slow because of the holiday weekend.

Slimer, what are your final reads on the game?

[uctriton00]

What do you want?

[uctriton00]

This all got really confusing for some reason.

Slimer: "If someone does say they are the Jail Keeper, I'll gladly die. Hell, I'll even hammer myself."

lol what? If you're the jailkeeper, and someone else comes in and says the jailkeeper, aren't they obviously lying then? Why would you hammer yourself in that case? That only happens if you know you're caught as scum.

And Thor, is it because you don't think I could have not seen the Mirhawk vote? I seriously went:
- I want to vote Slimer
- Let me scroll for a vote count. None on this page, let me go back another one.
- I see Slimer at 1 in the latest count.
- I see another vote for Slimer. That should make it L-2.
- I don't see any other votes as my finger is scrolling.
- I vote.

I can take screenshots from my phone if it helps.

[uctriton00]

"For the most part, I thought this was easy enough to.understand, but I suppose the scum has to change words around so I can get lynched. Sigh"

Now you're being passive aggressive, implying that people who question what you write are actually scum who are trying to get you lynched.

There isn't anyone in this thread who doesn't understand the logic that when there are two counter-claims, one of them is scum.

But self-hammering to get your point across is not an end-all-be-ball situation. In fact, self-hammering is rarely ever done on this site by townies. Yes, you want to get your point across, and you want to take down a scum by a trade off.

But if you really are the town jailkeeper, the REST OF US as townies don't want to waste a mislynch. We want the real jailkeeper to fight and prove themselves, because we'd rather have a correct Day 1 lynch, then have the real JK have a 1/7 shot at saving themselves, and the town losing 0 members.

Otherwise, you get:
1- Day 1 ML because the real JK wants to self-gratify themselves as "na na see i told u na na na na"
2- Night 1 townie dead
3- Day 2 mafia dead
4- Night 2 townie dead

It's an essential 3 for 1 trade if the real JK just lies there and takes it.

You might instead want:
1- Day 1 correct lynch because the real JK said "here are why I am the real JK, blah blah blah", and giving the rest of the town a 50% chance of getting this scenario
2- Night 1 possible no kill, because they have a 1/7 shot of catching a mafia.
3- Day 2 begins, and we either lost 0 or 1 townie, and we begin standard scumhunting.

[uctriton00]

Only one way to find out.
Willing to make that sacrifice?

Are you threatening everyone?

[uctriton00]

slimer just bullied leviathan into doing what he wants. That is hilarious.

[uctriton00]

Not everyone has chimed in since the claim. Still waiting.

[uctriton00]

That just dawned on me.

Unvote

leviathan's overreaction post I hate very much, like attempting to freak out at which is probably the most common PR claim due to it's untestability.

Vote: Leviathan

[uctriton00]

Yes, post #362.

"I'm incredibly nervous now". Yeah, no I'm not buying that as a sincere reaction.

[uctriton00]

Don't think I saw any missed questions towards me.

"Its because I'm a noob! alright! I said it! I don't have experience with actually finishing games that had anything to them."

See that sounds terrible too. Weren't people (maybe it was Leviathan himself) who cite anti-townness and anti-helpfulness? And then he says "hey guys I'm just a noob I'm sorry", which is hypocritical. It's like, if you believe in that, why aren't you hammering yourself?

I'm voting Leviathan because I feel his posts are feigned emotions coming from scum perspectives.

[uctriton00]

I didn't like uct's hop onto the leviathan AT ALL.

Was it the hop away from slimer, or the hop onto leviathan?

[uctriton00]

I would like to mention that judging from a previous game that ended, was that under pressure as mafia slimer cleanly slid through my sights and held himself to look like town. This has made me extremely more aware of him in this game. and extremely more suspicious of his claim as jailkeeper. This was because the pressure was really put on him that he claimed. the judgement on this goes back to whether or not what he said was real. no counterclaim has come up yet. this could either mean that he is telling the truth and the mafia cannot risk trying to counterclaim, the fact that scum also cannot lynch him openly, because it may look bad on them. or he is lying and the real jailkeeper just doesn't want to be realized yet (i personally find that hard to believe though and that it wouldn't help town in the long run). thoughts anyone?

Or there could be no jailkeeper, which we've found by there being no counterclaims.

There's only two conclusions:
1. slimer is scum and claimed a PR to save herself
2. slimer is a jailkeeper

[uctriton00]

From ISO 18 (post 409) onwards, you stumble your way to vote leviathan. You’ve barely put pressure on him.

- slimer acted scummy
- slimer claimed JK
- nobody counterclaimed
- unsafe to lynch slimer (which is the point)
- leviathan acted scummy in reaction to slimer's claim
- voted leviathan

What did leviathan do? He avoided a confrontation with me and then went after Edo.

[uctriton00]

And finally, why do I have 3 votes on me?

[uctriton00]

But from the mafia's perspective, they see it as opportunity. They know I can do no harm and would probably wait to see if there really is some other JK and if I'm lying just so I can stay in the game.

Because anytime someone questions you, you accuse them of misconstruing your words, I'll just ask this politely:

Is it possible and beneficial for any vanilla townie in Mafia to lie about their vanilla townie status and claim they are a PR, in order to not be lynched?

[uctriton00]

Yes it's possible.

...............

Imagine if there was a townie, who drew the Jailkeeper card. They see that you claim you are the jailkeeper. They immediately come out and say "I'M the real jailkeeper, let's take this liar out". The lynch happens. It turns out the first townie was lying. Night happens. The Mafia now know who the jailkeeper is, and they kill him.

Fake claiming PRs is very anti-town.

You're basically saying that you play how you want to play, and you can say/do anything you want, and people can believe anything they want, and the truth will be told through actions/flips/endgames? Please tell me that I have misinterpreted your words, and that you're not that selfish.

[uctriton00]

I know Thor isn't going to believe me but I just noticed there's a 22nd page to this game and posted 534 before reading 525.

Slimer: the entire wagon disbanded after you claimed because there was no counter claim. Your PR claim already "worked". Yet you act as if you're at L-1 with someone holding intention to hammer.

If you're scum, your nervousness/agitation/appeals to emotion are giving you away.
If you're town, then play the game as a pro-townie.

[uctriton00]

He was a derpy lurker with nonsensical posting. If he wasn't scum then scum would be laughing and helping to push that wagon.
If he was scum then I would hardly be surprised if the buddy was like 'welp...that twit has to go, bus away!'

Do you buy the claim as real?

[uctriton00]

See Mirhawk the problem is I vote scum, so I voted slimer, who has an un-cc PR, and when leviathan reacted very poorly to the claim, I pegged him as the scum teammate trying to distance himself.

In the case they're wrong (which I could be, but I'll be the first to say at the end of the game "well damn, I was wrong about slimer, etc etc"):

zabriel: Is the same thing as robert, but just happens to pop in and beat these prods. Yet his reads are like my reads on Leviathan, and I like my reads on Leviathan. Have a town card.
edo: Has made the best case on me. No conspiracy theories, they're all based on my playstyle which is very observant. Have a town card.
mir: He doesn't like vintermute. Coincidentally, I also don't like vintermute (see more vinter below). Have a town card.
thor: He's not shy about his reputation of being able to push people around, but it's not an alignment tell. It's more of a don't give anyone a free ride in Mafia tell.
robert: On the verge of being replaced I assume. I have null on this.
vinter: The posts look to be either 1) asking someone something, or 2) making cases against lurkers. The other posts are general commentary posts. Curiously though, he's putting himself out there to defend me. I defending someone who was about to be lynched before and I was scum. I would say things like "maybe we shouldn't lynch this person" and I'd be like "I don't know guys".

I really don't think I missed when I hit slimer or leviathan. I'd put vinter in once either slimer or leviathan flip town.

[uctriton00]

That took a while to write and now there's an intent to hammer.

I really don't think you should lynch me.

[uctriton00]

Let's ask the IC:

IC, what's the "etiquette" of intent to hammer? When does a claim need to happen? Immediately? After some discussion?

[uctriton00]

And I, personally, would be suspicious of someone if they had exactly the same reads on me as somebody else. Townies should naturally interpret things differently.

They "should" but that doesn't mean they "will". Sometimes people just see the same **** and think the same way. It just means more than one person will be wrong in a game.

Robert has a replacement, hooray. Let's vote him instead of me. Just kidding.

[uctriton00]

My picks are Slimer and Leviathan. Vinter is the substitute choice. Nobody else in the game is in the realm of possibility of me calling them scum as these 3 are.
Slimer is uncounterclaimed PR. Vinter has a hammer vote available.
QED I'm going to re-explain Leviathan to everyone.

#11 = You can't tell me that RVS looks like any other RVS. Even for a new player.
#27 = Didn't many of us find this scummy? Implying a quick lynch?
#31 = Selling to everyone "i'm harmless"
#54 = Came off as scummy saying don't lynch anyone.
#80 = Defends the no lynch idea.

You know what, let me stop for a second there. I have questions.

Leviathan,

Can you walk us through post #80?

"However, this being said, if we don't lynch someone, we have to understand that one of us non scum people will probably die either way. We either get two people killed on the first day and night, one by a quick lynch and the other at night and find out a lot of information on the second day, or we don't lynch anyone and someone gets killed in the night with minimal information gained by town."

Let's pretend you had your way, and we no lynched. (It's not going to happen, but let's just be hypothetical). So we decide on a no lynch, and then someone dies at night. Moderator opens up the game, Day 2 starts. Someone steals Thor's cable modem so he can't talk. The town then turns to you, Leviathan, and asks how do we proceed since this was your plan. What would you tell us?

[uctriton00]

I was expecting you to actually do something about your impending lynch.

Patience, I want Leviathan to chime in. Vinter still is holding ITH so you'll get your wish eventually.

[uctriton00]

I'm here

[uctriton00]

Don't think "but I don't want to die!". You're not GOING to die

Now disband my wagon.

In case the town decides that they want to try to win this game without the doctor, I'll give you this simple piece of advice:

If one of you happen to be a cop, don't out yourself, pretty much ever the rest of the game. Next, you know obviously slimer is lying (there can't be all three PRs in a newbie game). Use your cop ability on someone else in the game; using it on slimer would be redundant. Use it on someone else.

[uctriton00]

Wait you decided I was town at some point?

So why wave a ******* hammer at me?

[uctriton00]

Like this

Vote: Vintermute

L-1

*double checks*

L-1

[uctriton00]

It's no longer in the town's interest for you to live.

[uctriton00]

Now that I'm outed I'm free to be much more aggressive.

Scum Vinter: "crap I don't want to be on a wagon this early on Day 1, but I want the mislynch to happen since we only have a few more days and the wagon looks hot"
Scum Vinter: "If I come in and my reasoning sucks, I am going to look bad since I'm the hammer vote"
Scum Vinter: "If only someone like Thor can give me reasons, I can say 'well I followed your reasoning thor, you look just as bad as me'"
Scum Vinter: "Damn it why is he not helping"
Scum Vinter: "I'll put down intent to hammer"
Scum Vinter: "Once he claims I'll do some 'well you didn't have to claim, I wasn't THAT ready to hammer you' stance"

Zabriel: who posts twice every three days
Leviathan: who can't stick with anything
Vinter: who didn't want to get on my wagon, asked for reasons to get on my wagon, got on my wagon, threatened to hammer, and then says 'well you should have reacted better to the ITH, not my fault you outed yourself'

My lynch pool STILL sits at slimer leviathan and vinter.

I'm voting Vinter because his actions are just that much more scummier than Leviathan's now.

[uctriton00]

There's also no guarantee of having 2 PRs. I can be the only one for all I know.

Thor, slimer can still die. Especially if slimer jailkeeps me in order to jail me if he doesn't believe me. Which I see him capable of doing. Because he is full of omgus.

[uctriton00]

WHAT THE HELL THER EIS A GHOST

[uctriton00]

I bet that's Zabriel posting from his alt.

Why do people have alts? To hide from broken metas?

[uctriton00]

Vinter and Leviathan really like each other.

I am feeling so good about my lynch pool right now.

[uctriton00]

I misread the post about Mirhawk and thought it was Vinter telling me to talk about a lynch option that's not slimer or leviathan. Scratch that then; the feeling is only one-way instead of mutual.

[uctriton00]

If we lynch Vinter and he flips town, then what?

Then you and leviathan are stuck.

[uctriton00]

There's also something vague about why I think jailkeeper is the best thing to fake claim.

You can't really "test" it, in that if you block someone, they can either be the shooter, OR they can be the intended target. At least with doctors, you know you blocked an intended target, therefore that person is town. Cop is self explanatory obviously.

(Of course there's still the mafia no-kill strategy, where they just choose to kill nobody. In my experience, I have never met a scum partner who was OK with a no-kill, and it always makes sense for some reason. It's not out of the question though and I'm sure it happens enough times.)

[uctriton00]

Thor, I don't want Zab to be speaking in absolutes, implying that the jailkeeper is a roving siege cannon. A JK can possibly get a townie too instead of a scum but get the same result.

[uctriton00]

FIIIIIIIINE

This is going to be a comedy movie with two people who absolutely despise each other are forced to work together.

[uctriton00]

Isn't fake-hammering frowned upon in a Newbie game? I remember asking to another mod (Hoopla) and he says there's really no place for cheap **** in newbie games.

Either way I think slimer is not only scum, but just a cheap player in general

[uctriton00]

Yeah now I'm interested in what the mod says. I have a guess as to what he's going to say, but it's ultimately up to him how he wants to handle this ****.

[uctriton00]

A fake hammer in a noob game from someone who's been messing around in this game from the very beginning.

It's the messing around part which makes the game hard, but like you imply (or I think you imply), you'll play however you want. But how do you expect to not get lynched out of every game, ever?

And again fake-hammering is not illegal, just frowned upon. Illegal is quoting your roles (please don't ever do that, I've seen that done before and it makes a game harder to play actually). Also, the IC not pointing out an invalid hammer vote is not illegal either. The most the IC can be expected to do is explain the implications of fake-hammering if players directly ask them about it, which is what Thor did.

Moving on:

I still like the pool of Slimer Leviathan and Vintermute.

Although it does feel like there's only that many players in the game:
- Slimer, Leviathan, Vintermute, Myself, Thor, then I guess Mirhawk, and then Edo, then Mirhawk, and I can't even name the 9th person.

[uctriton00]

bahahahaha

reading tomorrow

[uctriton00]

Goodnight, Slimer

I protected Thor.

Vote: slimer

[uctriton00]

Someone explain what a Mirhawk town flip sells us.

[uctriton00]

Because I think Slimer's claim was fake. Why would I protect scum?

Plus Thor was the obvious kill attempt.

[uctriton00]

Why can't Mirhawk and Slimer be on the same team?

If it's not Slimer Leviathan like I am saying, then I have no problem finding a bus attempt between Slimer and Mirhawk.

[uctriton00]

That still gets me what I want.

Unvote

We're missing players from the game still, and it's only been one day since the game has been open. Not going to put anyone at L-1 before a hammer.

Intent to L-1 once we get all our players back.
Intent to hammer if someone else puts him at L-1.

[uctriton00]

Should have wrote that it all applies to Mirhawk btw.

[uctriton00]

I saved you and now you want to lynch me...

[uctriton00]

At this point slimer needs to explain why it was Mirhawk who was "targeted" as a JK target, and also explain why scum would go after Mirhawk.

Spoiler alert: They can't.

[uctriton00]

no

[uctriton00]

UNVOTE: Well, I don't have much on you other then my gut and yet I feel the same on Mirhawk. I feel him to be town. I really am kind of against this lynch just like I was against Vintermutes but just go behind me again and lynch another innocent.

It's odd that you went from posturing as a newbie to now posturing someone as who knows what they're doing, and is dismayed at the town not listening to him.

Vote: Leviathan

[uctriton00]

Only if Uct doesn't Doc protect you.
Which would be bad of him.
And would make us lynch him.
With rope.

I protected who I wanted to protect Night 1 and it worked. I'm doing the same thing Night 2.

I really don't care if mafia no-killed to try to fake-sell me thinking I know what I'm doing, because we get the same ******* result anyway: no town dead at night. All I know is that I'm going to rub my doc card in people's faces once this game is over.

[uctriton00]

I was washing dishes downstairs and figured it out.

I only believe two things:
1. I protected Thor.
2. A no-kill happened

1. Slimer goes, "well yeah that was all me, let's go get Mirhawk since I targeted him". Conclusion: Slimer scum.
2. Slimer goes, "see, nobody died, it's because it was all me, let's go get Mirhawk since I targeted him". Conclusion: Slimer scum.

Both paths lead to the same spot.

I don't believe it, why did I not notice this.

Unvote

Vote: Slimer

And leviathan you know very much that I dislike you already, so IDC if you'd be vouching for my lynch on Day 2 Day 3 or Day 62. I'll laugh all the way to the house because I know what my card says. The i-told-you-so phase is the best part of mafia.

[uctriton00]

I don't like the idea of Mirhawk being offered as a policy lynch, especially with slimer's claim: it's either me or him today.

At first I thought it was ok then was going to L-1 him, but then I don't want to sacrifice a townie for the sake of going for someone I want to get.

[uctriton00]

Psst, Uct. Heads up: I'm running the show today.

This coming from someone who says they play recklessly because they want to. You seriously expect people to listen to you?

[uctriton00]

The only reason anyone is listening to slimer and not lynching him is because he said he's a jailkeeper.

I'm over helping this town. I'd rather be wrong about slimer being scum then have slimer fake-claim their way to victory.

Intent to hammer, Mirhawk.

[uctriton00]

I just worry long-term that given theslimer3's lack of support for his case, we could have a scum who successfully fake-claimed and now plans to ride out the game after bussing his partner.

You are invited to the post game BBQ

[uctriton00]

Mirhawk are you something

[uctriton00]

We're either lynching me or Mir today. No exceptions, no loops. One of us will flip scum. Just pick a side and vote already

Godspeed, friend. See you in endgame.

Vote: Mirhawk

[uctriton00]

Before twilight ends, my reads as well:

scum:
slimer
leviathan

town:
thor

everybody else = nullsville

[uctriton00]

I jailed someone /).-

Vote: slimer's target

If that target flips town = vote slimer tomorrow and game is over
If that target flips scum = game is over

[uctriton00]

I was doing it because if he died we'd get a confirmed town from your jail and also clear up the lingering doubts about him.
Now all we know is (maybe) he submitted a kill or scum tried to kill him.
Whoop-de-doo.

This.

And the plan also works because slimer can't confirm himself by jailing himself. Although that's what I think you tried to do when you said you jailed nobody and wanted me to have just a doc protect on you to confirm you as town.

[uctriton00]

The only way it's a bad idea is if lots of people think Uct looks town.

Oh, wait, no one does.

What's our flavor, Rome?

*eats a slice of pizza in the corner of the room*

I get what Thor's plan is. There's still holes though (and I'm not going to point those holes out to help scum).

I need to think about what Edo and penguin are saying. Also, Edo's vote looks like a creepy sheep vote. Need to think about it.

[uctriton00]

I get what Thor is saying, but I get what everyone else is saying.

Thor wants PR-led investigations.
The town wants to get information the brute force way.

I'm with the latter.

Guess who I want to still vote after many, many days.

Vote: Leviathan

They should call me the Tasmanian Devil after so much tunneling.

Leviathan's reactions just look all so feigned-cautious. It reminds me of a player in a newbie game named Alex78

The only think I don't like is how Zabriel is also voting. Zab is coming off as an anti-Thor. Thor comes off as null because of the way he plays is effective and yet can be super town or smart scum. Zabriel is like, ineffective and can be unhelpful town or scum.

[uctriton00]

The "info" we get from letting nightkills happen comes from scum. They decide what info we get, and they will decide how helpful that info will be to us.

The "info" we get from doing our daykills happen from town. We decide what info we get, and there's a non-zero probability of the lynch being the non winning lynch.

[uctriton00]

Messed up 925 but you get what I mean, everyone

The "info" we get from doing our daykills happen from town. We decide what info we get, and there's a non-zero probability of the lynch being the winning lynch.

[uctriton00]

And I am fine with waiting for whomever, and also waiting for people in general because of the holiday season. I'm going to be on vacation at the end of the week anyway myself.

[uctriton00]

There's no such thing as playing for your team because you have no team. You're on your own trying to catch someone. That's how I look at it

This is what policy lynching looks like.

[uctriton00]

What I appreciate now are that everyone has a different posting style:

Zabriel: chimes in very quietly, has convictions
Thor: cattle prods everyone
slimer: plays for his own
leviathan: playing the noob card
edo: uses logic/evidence to make decisions
penguin: infrequently posts analysis walls

7 of us alive, let's assume we get each other killed somehow: DL NK DL NK, will leave 3 left, so whoever calculated it earlier is right, we have 2 lynches at this.

I want leviathan: i don't want that noob card to be played forever
then I want edo: i don't trust that

I want the jail to be on zab
then i want the jail to be on penguin

[uctriton00]

Does that say doctor by my name

Sweet founding fathers it DOES say doctor by my name

[uctriton00]

The wagon started the day after Christmas at 9 in the morning, and finished at 430pm in the evening. But we had the luxury of a doc/jk siege tank suggestion by Thor, so that gave us all the bravery to go ahead. Good work, us.