Newbie 1,304 (Game over!)

[Thor665]

tl:dr - this entire commentary block is all about introducing myself as the IC, blathering about my duties, and offering a basic idea of some of the strategy of the RVS. If this interests you, please read on (especially if this is your first time playing here) if not, feel free to skip.

Spoiler: IC Intro

===========================================================================================

Greetings,

I am Thor665 and I am the Inexperienced Challenged (IC) player of this group. What this means is first and foremost - I am here to play this game with you in a way that will show you what it is like to play on Mafiascum.net. I am here to win and should be treated as such.

My goals and the rules governing my actions are covered in this handy article: Being a good IC
That article is part of our amazing MafiaWiki System. I *highly* recommend this system as a good way to get your feet wet and to find out what a lot of the common abbreviations mean. There is a lot of play strategy discussed in there too. A lot of players consider that advice almost all outdated now. I don't recommend trying to run verbatim with anything there, but a lot of the basic advice is very good to at least be aware of as it can help you avoid blatant pitfalls as you become familiar with the game play here.

Now, as an IC I am here as a resource for you to ask questions of concerning game theory. I WILL NOT lie about game theory answers and will answer them to the best of my ability. I will also offer you the following quick pieces of advice;

1. Don't self vote. (there are really no points during a Newbie setup where this is a good idea, please avoid it however logical you may think it is)
2. This site frowns on lying if you are a vanilla town role. I strongly advise against lying if you have this role as usually it will only hurt town in the end.
3. It's a game - have fun.

We are now starting what is known as the RVS (random voting stage). We are in a low information period because scum already know who they are, and even have a rough idea of what power roles may or may not be in the game. It is now town's job to root them out. Because the start of the game leaves us with no information to start with generally the way to start is to begin voting and questioning other people to see if you can catch them doing something scummy (scummy actions being acts that a scum player is more likely to do then a town player).

Vote: Vintermute

[Thor665]

Thank you for admiting I'm a good player - that actually seems like a less than good reason to vote me to start.
You should sheep my vote, Vintermute is scum.

[Thor665]

The IC can't joke he is the IC.
And I can't vote two people now can I?

So, wait, are you saying you *did* think I should be voted but just chose to vote 'other guy' because you couldn't vote him and me at the same time?

[Thor665]

You are no god of thunder....lol.

I'm almost a fake noob. I'm new to the site, but I have played mafia though. I do know what it is to be like Thor(IC). Usually we have 2 where I come from.

So why are you not addressing the scum situation we already have and instead sidelining your vote on me?

[Thor665]

Voting you would have been OMGUS and Mirhawk was more emphatic on his scum claim.

1. How does OMGUS matter if I am scummy? Also - you actually thought that?

2. How was Mirhawk's scum claim more potent than mine?

My vote is no longer random.

[Thor665]

1. Hurm.

2. And this is scumworthy because?

[Thor665]

@Mirhawk - I'm thinking you're serious because you haven't unvoted Zab to vote this guy yet - why is that? Does Zab remain scummier in your mind?

@Leviathan - how do you see waiting till night as a good plan?

[Thor665]

Be your guest for what? I feel like you're offering a plan, but I don't feel I could repeat it.

[Thor665]

I am, but its understandable if you can't repeat. I have no backing behind my actions either.

I don't mean 'repeat' as in - I will follow your lead.
I meant 'repeat' as in - I cannot describe what you mean.

Understand?

and be my guest provide your insights on who you think may be scum.

I have.
I would like yours.

Just commenting. its Day 1. Plus I'm just saying I've got my eye on you.

You have now accomplished this Herculean task - what do you plan to do now?

I said earlier I thought you were joking. I believe both of our votes were RVS.
UNVOTE:

Obviously they were. (though I have now clarified that mine no longer is)
And now you're unvoting - removing any value from the vote you placed out there while doing nothing to actually help move us out of RVS and into useful scumhunting.

I presume you have a plan or something that I just don't see?

[Thor665]

@Rob Why no vote? If you have your eye on Thor, why not vote him?

Because my beard scares him, natch.

@Vintermute Why did you unvote? This looks like a sign of backing down, which is a scumtell.

It is?
I look forward to this.

[Thor665]

You're failing at that.
Explain why people should vote me as opposed to obv. scum Vintermute.

Also, why do you not see Vintermute as obv. scum?

[Thor665]

1. You retreated from a position you had advanced. hat's backing away from it, which can be easily taken as backing down. Are you saying it isn't backing down? How would you describe it?

2. I think your choice of who to vote was flawed inherently, and your answers to questions seem focused on trying to sound 'not scummy' and I frankly do not believe that you went through the thought processes you claim to have gone through.

[Thor665]

Planning to vote him then?

[Thor665]

@Leviathan

1. You want to quick lynch someone.
2. You want to 'feel out' stuff yourself.

Could you tell me what you think 'quick lynch' means?

[Thor665]

@Leviathan - if you think a 'quick lynch' is so helpful to town, why are you not actually trying to make it happen and are instead trying to do a 'slow lynch'?

[Thor665]

Zabriel is also an acceptable lynch.

I'd like to see him or Vintermute get a couple more votes.

[Thor665]

Zabriel is scum because he admits scum don't want info and town do.
He then pairs this with doing nothing to get info but twiddling his thumbs and contemplating his navel.

[Thor665]

And I think most of you are scummy.

Though, actually it doesn't describe most of them. Feel free to quote the others saying we need more info while voting no one and offering no reads though. I'll help you lynch whoever you find.

[Thor665]

1. Why does Mirhhawk look townish, I got nothing there.

2. Obviously scummish, duh. What town would advance a scumread reasoning and then say they would also find scummy anyone else who met that reasoning? It totally boggles the mind as a concept and is clearly a scum intention.

[Thor665]

I'll agree that I currently think that everyone not pressing the game or advancing a vote is acting anti-town, if that's what you're asking.

But Zabriel is doing it worse, because he's posting while lacking input - most of the other useless wastes are not posting, which makes their uselessness more endemic to that, as opposed to being active while being useless.

[Thor665]

Zabriel is scum

Nah, I'm not sure what I'm saying.
I'm probably calling him town. I'll check and get back to you.

[Thor665]

Sure - sheep me.

[Thor665]

I am.
So why aren't you?

[Thor665]

didn't I state what I meant by a quick lynch? a lynch on the first day! a pre-emptive strike! not a just lynching someone without evidence or just because.

Around these parts we just call that 'a lynch'.

The only thing I'm seeing from this guy is that he wants to lynch someone, and not so much as they're scum.

Man, I totally am doing that. Good catch!
You should quote me saying what I did that gave you that read, so everyone else can understand it.

[Thor665]

@theslimer - you're showing me wanting to lynch specific people, not any people. That's different than what you said I did. Isn't it kind of normal to want to lynch people you think are scummy? Maybe I'm playing this wrong, let me know.

@Vintermute - why is attacking you and Zab scummy?

Also - kindly list the players who have talked to more players or answered more questions, or asked more questions, or advanced more actual reads than me.
I'll agree I haven't spoken about or with everyone yet.
But I've done more than anyone else - so suggesting I'm suspect for not doing EVEN MORE than everyone else is kinda...what's the word...silly? I'm going to go with silly.

But, yeah, I want you or Zab lynched and have been trying to make that happen. Congrats on spotting the cunning plan I openly announced I was doing in one one of my posts.

And, all I actually did was miss the Edo question...but now I'm not going to answer it just for yucks. You can react to that as you wish.

[Thor665]

Well there are 3 people who I would consider a lurker, I would be fine with lynching any of them. Thought the fact that 2 are SE's means they should know better and changes it a bit.

The three are Robert, Zabriel, and Ucitron

I would agree to your considerations. anyone else?

Maybe you guys should both vote them?
I would suggest Zabriel.

Though i will also add it's kind of silly to accuse people of 'lurking' when the game has only been running for about 25 hours.
Because...y'know, that might not be actual lurking.

[Thor665]

@thor I don't necessarily know how long a classic "lurker" would need to be for. I don't have a completed game to my name yet. if its too soon to tell, then my bad.

I wouldn't even call lurking a scumtell.
You can start using it whenever you feel is appropriate, but I would say prior to 48 hours is kinda 'meh'.

I did not accuse you of scum. I posted my process of getting to my realization that you haven't been scum hunting as much as I thought. And yes you have posted more of everything than anyone else.

So I've done more scumhunting than everyone else...but less than you thought?
So the point of bringing this all up was...?

Totally want to lynch this guy.

And you won't answer our questions to you? How is this helpful to town?

None, it will just really amuse me to see people react to that.

When would lurking be considered real?

As said, I'd give it at least 48 hours.
Later we can debate if it's even scummy in the first place.

[Thor665]

@Vintermute - Hint: scumhunting is more than accusing people. Also, that still isn't a point, I mean, why make the point that I was doing less scumhunting than *you* thought. Why does the thread need to know this?
Trying to get you killed is scumhunting. No matter which way you flip it will be helpful, it's just different degrees of helpful.

@theslimer - Cool. Hopefully at that stage you'll also answer my question.

[Thor665]

Zabriel is also an acceptable lynch.

I'd like to see him or Vintermute get a couple more votes.

Couldn't you have just quoted this?

So, basically, you were trying to undermine me to protect yourself even though you don't find me scummy?
Am I hearing that correctly?

[Thor665]

Nope. I'll ignore if completely :3

How many games of mafia have you played? Ballpark.

Serious question: In other games did scum hunting involve trying to get one to two people lynched from the beginning?

For me - yes.
What of it?

Ok. I kind of believe Vintermute now as town. it may be a bad call for you thor but I sense authenticity in him. at least compared to others in this game. I don't know about you. you say a lot without saying much, but that doesn't mean scum.

You sense authenticity in him as he mmbles around being unable to even really say why he's doing something? How does that work?

Not at the moment.I just iso'd thor first and chose him. I'm too lazy to catch up ('-' )

For 3 pages? (2.5 if we take out all the mod drivel)
Replace out? Clearly forum mafia is not the game for you.

IMO, this last series of comments shows Vintersmute is town. It appears as if he's trying to prove himself by showing that we can't trust Thor.

He's actually said that he was specifically *not* doing that.
So why do you have this read?

@Thor - I'm not sure reaction fishing by not answering a question is the best thing right now.

Why not? They can't seem to puzzle together anything on their own, might as well give them some stuff to respond to.

[Thor665]

Meh, do what you want... but it's kinda pointless and anti-town. You should be helping them form an opinion on you if you were town.

Why do you care if I explain my thoughts on your buddying of me or not?
You even claimed you faked it, so functionally any read I had off it was colored by your fakery, so...?

@Leviathan - so what did Zab do to look scummy to you?

[Thor665]

6. And don't get too butthurt buddy, it's a noob game. If you have a problem with my singling you out, out of all the others, then I sincerely apologize v.v

That's awesome.
Planning to answer those questions you quoted?

[Thor665]

I do think you're my unequal - what of it?

Are you "butt-hurt" by that to the degree you don't think you'll answer any questions?

[Thor665]

Why yes I am. I'm healing currently :c

No worries.
When you get to the point of the day where you're playing at a level that it clearly shows I was being a twit for talking down to you...let me know.

If what you are doing is common practice it would partially discount that you were doing this to keep you post count high to avoid looking like lurking as scum without accusing alot of people.

Are you saying I was doing that?

How pray tell are we supposed to respond to you providing less information, other than seeing it as scummy? Since town wants public info and scum does not.

Are you saying you find me and slimer scummy for this?

^This, making a case to not implicitly trust you is not the same as making a case that you are scum. And I guess you could call it personal in that I probably wouldn't have done this if he was focusing on someone else.

Yup, because town wants to make sure players don't trust town-looking players, and scum never want that,

[Thor665]

@Thor - Well, I'd like to see what you have to say about my apparent buddying. I thought it was clearly a joke, but you might've thought otherwise.

I ignored it.
I get buddied so much I treat it as a null tell in Newbies.

[Thor665]

Hopefully with a Vintermute vote.
Seriously.

[Thor665]

Echo.
Echo.
Echo.

Buddying is appreciated though.

[Thor665]

just a hunch, but whether this is just personal or not, thor naturally seems to be trying to rile us up in a dickish manner. whether its to get information or not I see it personally doing more harm then good right at this point.

I might agree with that.
If any one else was actually producing reads, opinions, and reactions.
But they aren't.

Why do you disagree with Mirhawk?

[Thor665]

I disagree with Mirhawk, because I believe Vintermute to be doing the same tactic you are in a way.

Except I call the people I'm attacking scum.
That's actually a big difference.

[Thor665]

@Leviathan - That's a very weird way to do it, but that's not what he was doing. He just attacked me while not calling me scum. If he had said he never called anyone scum, that would be one thing, but he said he was attacking me because I looked...well, too much like town. How does that make sense?

[Thor665]

Thor, I think the town could use a refresher on your case on Vintermute. Was it any different than mine?

My case at the moment is entirely placed around the 'attack someone to explain why they can't be trusted, don't have scumtells, do nothing' case.
I don't know if that is your case or not. I don't think I could describe your case.

I'm for a no lynch as well, because I'm not 100 percent sure of anyone being scum or not and as I think i've stated I am not fond of the thought of lynching wrongly and being accused later.

If we no lynch then we go into tomorrow with no more information than we have now except that one town will be dead.
I don't see the advantage.

[Thor665]

Read my post #34 and then read the following six pages. What you have just done may not have been the best idea.

Why do you care is she's not voting me when you're also not voting me and also consider me not scummy?

Look at the timing of it:
1. Wagon forms on him
2. We tell him he's too defensive, and should go on the offensive
3. Switches to more personal attacks on Thor
4. Does the whole ISO thing, trying to show that we can't trust Thor, but he's still not scummy

Y'see, the funny thing is that I find that flow of events rather scummy.

1. Wagon forms on him
2. We tell him he's too defensive, and should go on the offensive
3. Switches to more personal attacks on Thor
4. Gets called on them and goes 'oh, well I am not saying he's scummy!
5. Votes Zabriel for reasoning Thor provides.

I mean...it's not exactly a class action suit of pro-town play there, at least not that I see. What am I missing? We're looking at the same info and coming to drastically different conclusions.

@Thor
Whatever happened to this?

Zabriel is scum

Nah, I'm not sure what I'm saying.
I'm probably calling him town. I'll check and get back to you.

You said you read Zabriel as scummy, thought you'd change your mind, didn't, and didn't explain. Would you mind if I asked why?

Read that post more closely.
Then smack yourself in the back of the head.
Or, ask me the question again and demand an answer - and I'll answer.

[Thor665]

Mirhawk can be town now.

[Thor665]

It has nothing to do with who slimer unvoted, my point is that it is one of the reasons you still want me dead 6 pages later so there are clearly people here who believe it is a scumtell.

Actually that's not my real issue with you.
But I can buy that as an answer.

I haven't made multiple personal attacks and I haven't been pushing this attack on him. I made one post about this back on page four and then have been answering questions about it since then.

I agree with this.
What does it prove or disprove?

Welp, I hate to say it, but I also think Mirhawk is town, but not for post 190. I actually like post 182 more because of the attitude.

Why do you hate to say it?

Uh... I demand an answer. Why did you hesitate to call him scum? In other words, why did he look town?

When did I say he looked town and when did I hesitate to call him scum - quote that part(s?) and then I'll fill in the rest for you.

[Thor665]

Good unvote - you putting me at L-4 was a bit stressful and distracting to the game.

If you have enough reason to not be voting me, I would have thought that would mean someone had become more scummy than me (either by becoming more scummy, or by me becoming less scummy) In either situation you should have a vote in play. Especially if all you need to do is reread.

[Thor665]

These partially and possibly Mirhawk's case against me but im not sure on that.

I don't see how that proves or disproves anything you quoted or mentioned.

[Thor665]

To me, it looks like something made you think Zabriel was town for a moment, but it ultimately didn't. What was that?

Let's look at that post again.

So are you saying that zabriel is beyond just useless and being actively scummy?

Zabriel is scum

[sarcasm]Nah, I'm not sure what I'm saying.
[hidden remark]I'm going to hint that I don't think you're actually reading the thread very well.[/hidden remark]
I'm probably calling him town. I'll check and get back to you.[/sarcasm]

Yeah, you're right, that is pretty clearly me calling him as being a town read now.
I'll research that reasoning and respond to you in my next post, pinky promise.

And I hated to say that Mirhawk is town because he is/was my gut scum feeling, as I explained in that post.

That feels a little fake.
How attached are you to your early game gut reads that you're sad to see them change?
Have you said the same thing in other games?

I'd support a Slimer wagon now.
I'm getting more scum reads than town reads. You should all work on that.

[Thor665]

Deal.

[Thor665]

I'll probably add some other real content tonight. Today turned out to be more fluff and stalling.

It really did.
When you do add stuff, please toss out a link with you as town being annoyed/sad/depressed that you got a town read on someone.

[Thor665]

@Leviathan - so you thought he was town but wanted to force the claim? I don't get it. Why even threaten to vote someone you think is town?

I think Edo is probably town - a weaker read, but it's there.

I think Slimer is either clever playing dumb or dumb playing clever. I'm not sure which yet. Still okay lynching it - she appears to be trying to play intentionally to be hard to read, and that's inherently dangerous.
Still happy with the Vint lynch.
Neutral on the current overall wagon picture though - maybe I should fire up a counterwagon for yucks...

[Thor665]

P.s. I'm a jester in every game I play, just look at my Godfather Mafia game that just passed xD

I agree with that self meta.
It's why you're a good lynch.

[Thor665]

I might do it the other way around, I'm debating.

[Thor665]

Not voting (2): uctriton00, Robert2424

uctriton00

zabriel

[/b]

A

gray name

indicates a semi-experienced, or SE, player.

[Thor665]

Because stating reads is so much more complicated than writing two sentences.
How about just state top two scum reads - you can later supply reasons when you're on a PC?

[Thor665]

I'm content lynching either Robert or Uctriton as a compromise lynch - both have joined Slimer in the 'openly declaring to be useless' camp.
Still hold Vinter and Zab as actual good lynches.

Hint: if you don't have time to play the game, don't sign up for the game and be semi-useless throughout. It's not polite to the other players of the game.

[Thor665]

I find both of you delaying and derping like that to be fairly 'meh'

I look forward to these thoughts that require a 48 hour wait to manage to be put in order.

In other news - there are still people not voting.

[Thor665]

And people continue to post 'I'mma useless!' as though it matters.

[Thor665]

I approve of that.
I only wonder why it took so long.

[Thor665]

How did doing it like this make you look less scummy?

[Thor665]

You seem to be really working hard to avoid looking scummy - as in you seem to think about it before every post you make.

Discuss.

[Thor665]

What you're doing is different though.

You are town (I'll presume for the sack of this argument)
You had suspicion on Slimer.
You chose to delay voting them even though you wanted to.

Why woud it look scummy to vote them when you wanted to - you're town and wanted to vote them then, so obviously it isn't scummy, so...?

[Thor665]

Good.

You should put your replace out request in bold text for the mod, or PM him directly.

[Thor665]

I'm sorry if I offended you.
That said, I was rather accurate, even by your own admission, that you were not playing the game. So though maybe pointing that out was rude of me, I don't think it was really very rude. I will apologize if it upset you, but you did upset me by not playing the game, so that's why I felt the need to note it.

[Thor665]

Thor- posts alot and is IC. As I've done the same on Ika mafia as he is doing here, I do believe a spacial eye on him as I've rolled mafia being IC. I've also seen IC use it as cover also. His posts also have me going ???. Just his style of posting I guess.

Thor's posts leave me confused about him.
I don'tunderstand what he is saying or what he means.
I'll express slight suspicion about him.
I will not ask him to explain anything in order to see if I can understand what he's doing and to see if that will allow me to get a good read on him.

I am town - the role that is supposed to solve mysteries and learn the unknown!

[Thor665]

If Slimer is that obviously scum, why aren't you voting her?

And you got no votes because half this town (including yourself) doesn't know how to place a vote.

[Thor665]

His lurker thing was silly and sounded scummy to me - but I like the vote.

[Thor665]

really? i thought it was a stating the obvious. even though technically i normally wouldn't have drawn any attention to that if I was in his position. it could have been a ploy to throw him off our sites. but you are right. he did do a vote.

It was stating something semi-obvious is silly and scummy ways, yes.

Basically he came in and was like "Hey! I'm acting like scum, people should have voted me before now, shame on you all!"

Whereas the reality should have been "Oh mi'gawd, I am failing to help town in any way at all and a number of you have pointed that out. I am so sorry with how bad I fail, I'll do better now!"

When you are failing in every way imaginable, you don't get to say it's derp that you didn't get more pressure. Especially when lurker lynches are dumb, as he is obviously suggesting he is town and is a lurker - which means he should understand that people shouldn't vote him for that. So, basically he's saying nothing, but saying it in a way to try to look pro-town...meh.

@Thor: You're more than fine. I realize that non-microgames aren't really my.forté yet xD

Obviously - you're shockingly useless in them.

On the plus side I am pretty sure if I move my vote to you that you'll become the biggest wagon - now I need to go double check that.

[Thor665]

Nope.

Slimer is at L-1

Uct continues to be anti-town and fail for not pointing it out.
That said, I'm considering hammering Slimer simply because.
She should probably do something to convince me I shouldn't.

Uct and Vint also are good people to lynch - just saying.
Zab might still be - he's working hard to be a shadow.

[Thor665]

@Slimer - as long as your avatar is that pink you'll always be a girl to me

In a general play sense you actually didn't need to claim - all I'd asked for is evidence that you shouldn't die...which was really request #3,219 for you to do...anything.
That said, a claim will likely stop the wagon.

If you are indeed town then I would note that if you take everyone voting you and add me to them - you probably get at least one scum.
Even if you aren't town this probably holds true.

theslimer3 (?): Vintermute, Leviathan, Mirhawk, Uctriton, Thor

Do you think Leviathan's vote was the worst one on you?
I agree he's pretty derp, but I'm currently leaning rather firmly town on him at the moment and tend to look askance at Uct and Vint. Mirhawk's vote on you makes sense from a frustrated townie side, and you well deserved frustrated townie votes (which is annoying because it makes looking at this wagon less clean). I think Uct looks bad for putting you at L-1 and not mentioning it...now, maybe he's just terrible enough not to have realized (which would actually be a town tell) but with so many votes pouring in on one page I have my doubts. Vint is there for me mostly due to inertia - but he's been playing anti-town for a while now.

What are your thoughts?

@TheoryRealJailkeeper - normally I don't advise counterclaims on Day 1, but with a Jailkeeper it is totally worth it. I would advocate waiting till after Slimer has responded with some real thoughts on the game, and then counterclaim him. I'll explain more strategy on this later at that point. Also, if you don't counterclaim prior to the end of Day 1 then any claims of Jailkeeper on Day 2+ will be taken as a claim of 'Scum'.
Just saying.

[Thor665]

@Uct - the vote count was very much correct. You were very much the L-1 vote (I mean - hint, look at the vote count right above your last post there...y'know, made fifteen minutes before our post, so I'll presume you saw it)
You were also very much anti-town.

Fascinating that both you and Slimer managed to miscount in the same way...not sure I believe yours. Whose vote did you not notice?

Also, good job semi-repeating what I already said, only without as much viable advice. Meh.

[Thor665]

It was Mirhawk #286. The vote was pushed off the side of the screen.

How little of the game are you reading.

Edit: Also, Mir asked too and did so excellently - why you dodging that question?

FALSE

The jailkeeper would have to magically know who was mafia which was making the kill.

Unless we have an uncommon version of jailkeeper you should know this and now im somewhat suspicious of you.

It is more true than false.

Other then that just posting to show that I am not CC'ing.

What part of 'no JKer counter claims till after Slimer responds do you not fully grok?
Claiming 'not JKer' is part of doing a counterclaim - so everyone else look at what Mirhawk is doing here...
...then don't do it.

And is a 1 for 1 trade worth it when the town loses a power role? I guess it could be if we are trading the power role for half of a two man mafia.

I would 1 for 1 trade all day everyday in every game of mafia I played and would consider myself blessed super town. What is the point of a PR if it isn't to confirm people/catch scum? Oh, look, it can help catch scum...that means it's doing what it's supposed to do.

@Vint - also, why no commentary about the Slimer wagon? Do you think it's an awesome wagon...or no?

[Thor665]

So you think Slimer is scum faking the PR claim for lulz?
Cool - that's a good reason to stay on the wagon for now.

What's your read on Uct?

[Thor665]

So you're saying that Uct's lurk is the only thing he's done that looked scummy, and obviously scum wouldn't do that but town would?

[Thor665]

There's lurking for the sake of lurking and there's lurking because pretty much all over the site, all games were slow because of the holiday weekend.

Agreed.
Which is why I don't find your lurking scummy at all - just anti-town.
Which is also why i don't find you doing it so "brazenly" to be a town tell at all.

You dodged the question about reading again.
I'm going to guess it was because when i asked it I used more than three words - so it got pushed off your screen.

[Thor665]

What do you want?

An explanation of why you are voting and saying things while not reading the thread would be a sexy-sexy start.

Unfortunately it appears everyone just started an angry riot against me which gathered no information.

Actually - you were the one who started that riot.
I at least thought you were playing intentionally badly in order to get those types of reactions. If you didn't understand that was the reaction you'd get...egads!

Why is Uct scummy for "rolefishing" and Thor is not?

I'm not a complete Noob thor. but you seem to think I am.

Feel free to prove me wrong, I would be super happy with that.
Your entire post felt very disconnected from where we're at in the game...why is that? It felt to me like you'd only skimmed - yes/no?

[Thor665]

I will agree that Slimer just popped a gasket.

Then again, she thinks there is a confirmed Doc so maybe she doesn't even understand how this setup works.
I hate having to tell between derping town and scum playing derp though.

[Thor665]

Shhhh, we were all going to lurk out so Vint would call us all town and be forced to self vote.

[Thor665]

@Uct - yeah, a picture would be awesome.

@Robert - it is super exciting I 'stick out'...and...?

@Slimer - if you are town, you should take a deep breath and re-read what you're posting. It makes little sense.

I would really like a few more people to look town about now.

[Thor665]

I also don't want to cause the lynch of the jailkeeper...lying or no.

What's you win condition again?

[Thor665]

so he means I should go back to lynching slimer? and that NOT lynching slimer is anti-town?

No.

What I mean is when you said "I wouldn't lynch Slimer whether or not he is lying"
should have said
I wouldn't lynch Slimer if he's not lying but would lynch him if he is.

Because if he's lying he's scum.

[Thor665]

I will admit - without a counter claim I have little desire to see Slimer lynched.
I'd rather lynch Uct or Vint.

[Thor665]

@Edo - why Leviathan over Vint or Uct?

[Thor665]

@Slimer - stahp being so scummy.

@Mir - what do you see as the value of lynching Slimer today as opposed to tomorrow?

[Thor665]

Are you trying to get better at this game, or no?

Hint: randomly squealing things and picking fights is what forced you to claim in the first place. If you're town (or, frankly, scum) you're doing it wrong.

[Thor665]

If I look at all your posts on this page - I'm not sure which of them did anything to help town win.
That's not a good ratio.

You are an uncounterclaimed power role and people still want to lynch you - why do you think that is?
What are you doing to combat it besides going with cheesy appeals to fear to try to spook them off?
Do you think scum is still pushing on you, or do you think scum unvoted you quickly?

[Thor665]

I would be pretty stoked by a scum no kill.
Just me?

[Thor665]

@Thor
I've already given my reasons to not vote ^guy. I have a null read on Uct. I don't exactly understand slimer and leviathan's reasons for voting him.

I don't understand. Are you saying you have no scumreads that aren't Slimer?

[Thor665]

@Edo - missed your vote, I forgive you, no need to apologize.

[Thor665]

theslimer3 (3): Vintermute, Mirhawk, uctriton00
Not voting (1): Robert2424

These votes are all useless.
They should be somewhere else.
Or you should *really* explain to me how these votes are pro-town in any way at all.

[Thor665]

Yeah, it will be impossible to move your vote back if he is somehow counterclaimed.
Okay, who would you move it to presuming he wasn't counterclaimed?

[Thor665]

@Thor, My vote yes is useless at the moment, but I don't vote hop like I've seen a few people do. I find it as a scum tell.

Well - you're *definitely* not vote hopping.
Hard to do that when I can't even get your scummy lurking backside to even place a vote.

How about this, just like with Uct. If the idea of placing a vote terrifies you due to the obvious scum mindset - how about you just tell me who you would vote if magically it wouldn't lynch them?

Later you can explain to me why strategically a lynch today is bad in any way and not actually really good.

[Thor665]

Thor
-Null. I have trouble reading Thor, he definitely scumhunts, but is also the worst person to ask questions. He either ignores, answers them with more questions, or gives you some snark.

Name one question I've ignored.
I had one that I missed, and then as called out for dodging it so I openly declared I was dodging it (and later answered it anyway...so...)
Me responding with questions and snark is still quite functional answers - I would challenge you to show me any question I've responded to with a question wherein the question wasn't a viable and good answer.

Also, I fail to see how any of that should impede your read of me - functionally if you think I'm avoiding answering questions, shouldn't you have a very focused opinion of me?

my townie abilities are to cause disruption.

I usually end up having to do a lot to get myself cleared, but I believe it.to be Rather informative if used correctly

What information has your disruption given you?

Hey guys, I'm finally out of GRE Prep mode. Since there hasn't been a counterclaim on slimer, the smart here is to look elsewhere. For me that leaves Vint and Leviathan as possibilities for lynching. Leviathan has been willing to bend to just about everybody's will, and Vint's been looking scummy, plus with the vote left on the claimed JK, it doesn't look good.

Do you think IIoA is a scumtell?
Yes or no?

[Thor665]

I could have told you that without you being disruptive to the town.
Also, in my personal opinion, there is a BIG difference between playing to force reactions (what I like to think I do) and playing to intentionally disrupt town. When you intentionally disrupt town people call you scum...and town people do it just as easily as scum...so how do you tell them apart? When you force reactions due to unusual behavior that is not inherently anti-town it forces people to react to you and makes them uneasy, but it doesn't auto make you worthy of being lynched.

I would encourage you to consider that subtle difference because I do think it's quite important for your play, regardless of which alignment you are in this game.

[Thor665]

My real problem is the answering questions with questions thing. It makes it difficult to tell how you feel about the subject you're being questioned about.

Quote one that's causing you problems.

[Thor665]

@Thor
None of them are causing me problems, none of them were even my questions in the first place. There aren't any specific ones I'm thinking of anyway. My point is that it makes it difficult to get a feel for what you're thinking when you post.

So...quote one?
If this is a big enough deal to mention surely you can backtrack and find a non-specific one, yeah? I'm guessing I did it at least twice, right?
I feel like you're making generic and vague accusations because you think they'll sound good - but don't actually have reasoning behind it.
Thoughts?

[Thor665]

Yeah.

The conversation started by you saying you had trouble reading me.
I asked why and the basic answer was 'Thor doesn't answer questions well'
I asked for examples and your answer is now 'I understand Thor when he answers questions just fine'

That's the conversation as I understand it.
But if I'm right you sound like a crazy person. So...where am I wrong?

[Thor665]

What makes you think I changed my opinion? Because I certainly didn't.

The changed opinion would be the words coming out of your mouth.
Do I need to go quote them? I will if you repeat that you haven't changed your stance.

The manner in which you answered other peoples questions made it difficult to tell what you were thinking.

So you could tell, but it was difficult to do so?
Why does that make me a null read?

if you have a problem with the way I differentiate my town reads that's your problem not mine.

I'm just curious about what I see as a changing story in how you assess a null read - I don't know how town reads got pulled into it. Want to clarify that? I'm painfully lost now.

[Thor665]

Thor
-Null. I have trouble reading Thor, he definitely scumhunts, but is also the worst person to ask questions. He either ignores, answers them with more questions, or gives you some snark.

This was your original point.

As for the questions, you did answer that question in the end, and snark still has some indication of what your opinion is, making both of those relatively minor points. My real problem is the answering questions with questions thing. It makes it difficult to tell how you feel about the subject you're being questioned about.

You drop the other two since I point out I had answered the only "dodged" question, and you admit the snark is actually an answer.
Big issue is answering questions with questions.

None of them are causing me problems, none of them were even my questions in the first place. There aren't any specific ones I'm thinking of anyway. My point is that it makes it difficult to get a feel for what you're thinking when you post.

Then you admit none of them are your questions, and that there are none of them you want clarified...but it makes it hard to read me.

I mean, if it makes me hard to read, you should want them clarified, yeah?
If you don't need them clarified...then shouldn't you be able to read me?

Whole thing feels made up.

Also, you last comment about the null reads and town tells thing has left me even more confused - I'm going to do a simplification of our conversation as I understand it, please help;

You: Thor is a null read.
Thor: How so?
<discussion>
You: But your issue with how I differentiate town reads is your problem.
Thor: Huh? I thought we were discussing null reads, what do town reads have to do with it?
You: <whatever that last comment in your last post meant - I have no idea except that you seem to imply I don't know what a null read is>

So...?

[Thor665]

The questions you were asked only mattered in that they put you on the spot at that particular time. I frankly have no interest in what your opinion is on them now, pages later.

I also don't see any changed opinions there. You admit yourself that each one is a refined version of the one that preceded it. Nothing in the later ones precludes anything I said in the earlier ones, and the early ones don't contradict anything said in the later ones.

The thrust changed - I have you flat out admitting some of the stuff you said had no bearing.
The whole mentality still feels very fake to me.

[Thor665]

The thrust changed - I have you flat out admitting some of the stuff you said had no bearing.

And is that a crime? In the course of this discussion you pointed out to me flaws in my reasoning, why would I not change my reasoning to reflect that? You're insinuating that it's suspicious that I'm not arguing in favor of points that are proven to be invalid.

So you're agreeing that you changed opinion?

If it bothers you that much why didn't you bother saying anything about it when I first brought it up in post 182?

Isn't that how we got started on this whole conversation in the first place? I seem to recall that being the case.

[Thor665]

@Edo
I don't have a read on Thor, he comes across as null to me. He does scumhunt, but the way he reacts to other players questions is quite unhelpful.

Ah, I see, you mean this one.
I really didn't have it click with me at the time.

[Thor665]

So you changed the reasoning but not the conclusion?

[Thor665]

You see no problem with that?

[Thor665]

The structure of my argument remains unchanged, so no.

The supporting evidence and reasoning behind it is diminished though. I would have expected at least some shift from no longer believing that I outright don't answer questions. I mean, if you believed that, that is pretty scummy and questionable, and to then come to the point where you realize you were wrong on that...yeah, I expected a shift.

Why do you have a problem with that?

I dunno, I sort of feel I suggested I did when I kept calling it fake. But I get so confused, I probably have no problem with it at all and am pressuring you about it for no reason in the world.

[Thor665]

Honestly, yes, I do think that you should be shifting me to town after removing obvious scumtells from your read of me. Are you saying that believing I was flat out not answering questions was not a scum mark on me in your mind?

[Thor665]

Wanna lynch Uct instead of Vint?

[Thor665]

No, if we're lynching someone useless today then I want Zabriel. He's the worst of the three, Roberts in the middle, and Uctrion's the best.

Except some people actually think Uct is scummy.

[Thor665]

Thor: IIoA can be a scumtell if it's meant to give the illusion of greater participation. However as is the case with some, what reads as IIoA is often just an attempt to keep track of thoughts and to create a base for building off of later. It's up to town to decide and act accordingly.

What if the person in question is taking no action?

[Thor665]

Lurking is lurking and varies from meta to meta. Vinter and Leviathan have appeared to be the scummiest players to me thus far. I haven't read slimer's thoughts on uct myself, but assuming that Vinter's post is accurate, Slimer's vote seems opportunistic. If it is not accurate it would seem Vinter would have us believe that it is opportunistic of him. I do think it merits a response from Slimer in any case.

Do you have an opinion about the accuracy of the call?

[Thor665]

Unvote: Vintermute
Vote: Uctriton00

[Thor665]

@StrangerCoug - I'm voting Uct right now.

[Thor665]

And actually that Vote Count has a lot of numbers off.

[Thor665]

Vote: Uct

[Thor665]

Unvote: Vintermute
Vote: Uctriton00

[Thor665]

And Vint is listed at 3, with 2 people voting him.

[Thor665]

Nope, it looks awesome now.

[Thor665]

Because three people think you're scum.

[Thor665]

They do not do that in Newbie games.

[Thor665]

They don't because, frankly, it's a rather unusual thing to do and whatever game you saw it in was a little odd.
Also, scum doesn't need free fake claims as well as full awareness of what PRs are around in this setup - town is hardly that favored.

[Thor665]

Are you asking Slimer to explain why Uct is scum or are you asking me?
If you're asking both of us...why do that? Seems to defeat the scumhunting value of asking, yeah?

[Thor665]

Do you think Slimer is scum? Yes/no?
If no - who was the scum voting Slimer?
If yes, do you think Slimer's scumbuddy voted Slimer?

[Thor665]

@Slimer
Because I can see no way that it would help the town. And several ways it could harm it.

Actually Thor, I would also like to hear your reasoning on for your Uctrion vote.

You can answer 530 too then, it's a process.

[Thor665]

Why are you so confident that there was scum voting slimer?

Add me to that list, as I offered to hammer (and would have if he'd said VT)
At that point, let me basically assure you - scum was voting him.

He was a derpy lurker with nonsensical posting. If he wasn't scum then scum would be laughing and helping to push that wagon.
If he was scum then I would hardly be surprised if the buddy was like 'welp...that twit has to go, bus away!'

So, yeah, I *really* think scum voted Slimer.
I'm town, I think Mirhawk is probably town, I think Leviathan is town, and I want to lynch you or Uct.
It's a crazy concept.

[Thor665]

I know Thor isn't going to believe me but I just noticed there's a 22nd page to this game and posted 534 before reading 525.

I believe you - I do that all the time.

[Thor665]

I sort of feel I just did.

[Thor665]

Thats not how feel, I want something better than process of elimination to vote him.

Then don't vote him - vote someone you think is scum for reasons that work for you.

Do you buy the claim as real?

I lean yes on it.

[Thor665]

I switched to Uct because this day has already gone on about 8 pages too long in my opinion and town needed something new to react to.
I literally have no real preference between them - I'd lynch either.

[Thor665]

That doesn't get us anywhere, and are you saying that your only reason for lynching Uct is that he was on the slimer wagon?

No...it doesn't get *you* anywhere. I'm already somewhere.
And, yes, that's my case - what's wrong with it? It's better than your current position of "someone convince me who to vote for so I can deny responsibility later" I feel.

[Thor665]

My gawd, how is it I couldn't run a wagon on you?

[Thor665]

IC, what's the "etiquette" of intent to hammer? When does a claim need to happen? Immediately? After some discussion?

There is no hard rule - to my mind it's a debate between the hammer-er and the hammer-ee really.

Personally, I would probably claim - but if you think you can wuss slap Vint and/or turn the wagon around without a claim, I would try that.

I have a town read on Thor

[Thor665]

Unvote: Uctriton
Vote: Vintermute

@Uct - if Slimer dies before you do, I will take it as a claim of scum. You protect Slimer tonight.

[Thor665]

I would not doubt it.

I would bet Edo or you.

[Thor665]

Can we get a prod on Penguin Alien

[Thor665]

Obviously the same scum would not be on every wagon.

That said, your approach to the Uct wagon was scummy as all get out.

[Thor665]

Yes.

Here's the rundown of what you did.

You: I'mma not sure about voting Uct...someone should tell me why I should...because I'm not sure.
Thor: Meh.
You: Tell me why to vote Uct!
Thor: [reasons]
You: I'm not sure about those...tell me more?
Thor: No, vote him if you want to, don't if you don't.
You: Yo, Mirhawk, what about you?
Mirhawk: Meh, I could lynch him.
You: Um...uh...I went back and read what Edo said about Uct! Now I'mma ready to hammer, claim fool!

You wanted to vote Uct. You wanted it really bad. But you wanted to be able to sheep onto the wagon - so you pushed on two people to find sheep reasons, and weren't given them. SO you claimed some vague Edo reasons (that had been posted long ago, because he certainly didn't do a case recently) and claimed those had sold you, and suddenly you were ready for a lynch.

I don't buy it.

[Thor665]

Can we get a prod on Penguin Alien

You are impatient, are you?

It's one of my charms.

[Thor665]

Why didn't that post sell you the first time through?

[Thor665]

FFS, guys! Two PRs on two consecutive claims? I'm willing to bet either slimer or Uct is a fake PR claim. If that's so, should the real PR claim?

If a JKer - yes.
If a Doc - no.

[Thor665]

Wait, did we seriously just get two PR claims on Day 1?

No, we didn't.

we as town should direct our claimed JK since the cat is already out of the bag.

We should get him to agree to lynch someone *if* the lynch is scum
If the lynch is town he gets to jailkeep whoever he wants in any way he wants (except Uct)

Thor, slimer can still die. Especially if slimer jailkeeps me in order to jail me if he doesn't believe me. Which I see him capable of doing. Because he is full of omgus.

Nope.
If he dies we lynch you.
End of story.
You doc protect him, you will always doc protect him. If he dies before you die then you die.
He will not Jailkeep you because as long as you're alive then he knows he lives or he'll help us catch scum.

[Thor665]

Thor, do you see a decrease in lurkers for established players? Would you call it rare or common?

People are generally either lurkers or are not - it's a playstle thing usually but can be scummy if it's a shift in their playstyle.
I have personally never noticed a correlation between lurking and experience.

Hey Thor, was just thinking about something. You were saying that a Doc shouldn't counter-claim if one exists and Uct is faking, but it would actually be pretty beneficial to town as we'd be able to string up Uct, have the real doctor protect Slimer, and have somebody confirmed town in the morning assuming that we don't have a no-kill.

Not worth it.
Doc can counter claim tomorrow and we'll be overall better off no matter what happens tonight.

[Thor665]

Are you actually trying to start a conversation on optimal scum strategy tonight?

here's the optimal town strategy - you protect the JKer and he doesn't target you.
Done.

@Slimer - by the by, I want you to state in thread who you'll jail if Vint flips scum. If Vint doesn't flip scum jail anyone but Uct. Do you understand/agree?

[Thor665]

I would tend to advocate a Leviathan jail if Vint flips scum, fyi.

[Thor665]

Thor, I don't want Zab to be speaking in absolutes, implying that the jailkeeper is a roving siege cannon. A JK can possibly get a townie too instead of a scum but get the same result.

Meh, no one is listening to Zab anyway because he's useless.

I don't see any need for Slimer to tell us who he's blocking one way or the other.

It matters if we flip scum. It matters quite a bit.
Like, say he says 'I'll jail Leviathan' and we lynch Vint and Vint flips scum and then I het NKed.
What that tells you is that Vint is confirmed town - no matter what alignment Slimer is.
Pretty cool stuff actually, it's like a Cop.
When there's only one scum alive.

That's why we need to know who he's jailing if Vint flips scum, and why it doesn't matter who he lynches if Vint flips town.

I'll take a Cop over a Doc any day.

@Vint - any last reads?

[Thor665]

I agree with Mirhawk honestly - I think he was faking. That he forgot you in his initial scum/town read posting when you're the guy he thought just hammered him comes across really strained in my credulity.

[Thor665]

Though feel free to explain how, if he wasn't faking, his comments made him town.

[Thor665]

You didn't ask me a question.
I still don't get how that makes you town - I'm guessing you're claiming it does somehow?

[Thor665]

Yeah, but it looked hyper fake.

1. You ask if it's legitimate.
2. You call it a hammer anyway.
3. You call it scummy.
4. You call Slimer town.

::shrug::

[Thor665]

yeah... I think I'm hammering. If you want reasons, take a look at what has been said recently.

Why not explain it in your own words just for laughs?

Isn't fake-hammering frowned upon in a Newbie game? I remember asking to another mod (Hoopla) and he says there's really no place for cheap **** in newbie games.

:shurg: I have no issue with it. I guess if I squint I could see Hoopla's point, but I think it's probably silly and I disagree with it. A Newbie game is a mafia game - besides you all being unexperienced you're still supposed to play a regular game of mafia. I think gambits are not so shockingly advanced that Newbies can't understand them (they misuse the hell out of them, sure, but they do that with scumhunting and tells too, so I don't get why gambits would be special)

Either way I think slimer is not only scum, but just a cheap player in general

[Thor665]

Penguin and Zab.
Penguin is probably town and Zab is probably useless.

[Thor665]

I see 1&2 as void, because Thor asked you to state your last reads. You state your reads, don't ever actually call it a hammer, but Thor says you do.

Well...*neither* 1 or 2 had anything to do with stating reads...want to tell me how that then matters?

Also, as to him not saying there was a hammer...really...really!?!

And my hammer was scummy -_-

my

hammer

hammer

Tell me more.

[Thor665]

I didn't count that as saying "hammer" because that was immediately after he asked if it was, in fact, legit.

Why say the hammer is scummy if you don't think there was a hammer?

[Thor665]

^
zabriel,

Thor665

,

Mirhawk

,

uctriton00

, Edosurist
when matched with

Vintermute

, Leviathan,

Mirhawk

,

Uctriton

,

Thor

My guess is one was off and one was on. Discuss.

Judging by your bold choices you seem to believe that the same one was 'on' both times.
Discuss.

We're either lynching me or Mir today. No exceptions, no loops. One of us will flip scum. Just pick a side and vote already

Theory - Uct is scum. You and Mir are both town. Scum tried to kill Mirhawk because they couldn't target the 'Doc'.
Why do you rule this out as the option of what happened?

Slimer is misrepresenting the situation. Even if one of us were scum (which I don't really believe)

Why do you think scum tried to kill you?

Oh, also, today is a good day for any claims.

I'm debating the idea of lynching Mir and Uct - I probably should look at them to see if they make sense as a pair.

[Thor665]

I saved you and now you want to lynch me...

Yeah, I'm untrustworthy like that.

My thoughts on the matter are that I'm not the most likely kill. Possible certainly, but not the most likely. I think you or Uct would be at the top of the list.

So you think that Uct, Thor, and Slimer are all town?

@Zab - I do not hate your plan.

[Thor665]

Not really - both of you could be telling the truth - but for that to be the case either scum are dumb or Mirhawk is scum.

[Thor665]

@Uct - if you don't want to no lynch, why aren't you voting someone?

[Thor665]

Vote: Mirhawk

L-1

Dance for my amusement.

[Thor665]

@Thor
You know quite well I can't defend myself against this, neither you or Zab have given any real reasons for your vote, and Slimers is a gut vote. Perhaps you would like to enlighten me as to the reason for your vote.

Edo's post summed it up fairly functionally.

Considering the claims your lynch makes the most sense at this juncture and then we go into night again and give scum another whirl at mucking about.
Also, I'll admit with both of them listing different targets I'm of a slightly more believing mindset to think they're both town.

@Slimer - a reminder to state who you'll jail if Mirhawk flips scum.

[Thor665]

@Thor, why the reminder?

Have you already done it?
You should do it now if you haven't - and that's why the reminder.
If you have done it then people, like me, have missed it, and it should be repeated - and that's why the reminder.

[Thor665]

I'd rather wait till the next day

That's not a bad idea.
You can be assured town now.

[Thor665]

@Mirhawk - you or Uct are scum if Slimer is town.
Discuss.

[Thor665]

It showed you had actually thought about the situation as regards what a scum flip would mean as far as your survivability and what would happen the next day.
Also that you weren't immediately bowing to my wishes.

Both tend to be more likely to come from town who is considering how to win rather than scum trying to ride his fakeclaim to victory.

[Thor665]

Only if Uct doesn't Doc protect you.
Which would be bad of him.
And would make us lynch him.
With rope.

[Thor665]

Then if you die we lynch him.
So no worries.

[Thor665]

Honestly I had no idea why you did that, because if there was a kill you boned us and I consider it rather bad play if you're town.
You seem to be indicating that I should see something clever in all this though - so feel free to clue me in on what I'm missing.

Vote: No Lynch

@Slimer - if you don't have something brilliant to add to this, then you should be jailing tonight. If there is a kill then your jail is a Cop innocent. I would tend to suggest a Zab jail, since I lean towards him being the last scum and if he's cleared it will be happy for me.

@Uct - same deal, if Slimer dies before you do we lynch you. Protect accordingly.

@Mod - do you have any silly 'happily ever after' rules we should be forewarned of?

[Thor665]

Okay that didn't work, we're not secretly thinking the same thing...

And...?

[Thor665]

You're still talking past me because I have no idea what all that means.
Can you dumb it down for me a bit?

As far as I can tell you're saying that I gave you subtle hints to jail no one...while openly ordering you to jail someone as a smokescreen?

[Thor665]

I jailed someone /).-
And since my strategies revolving around you failed, I'll say it (ruining my chance to do it again) I did it to someone I thought you wanted me to protect

Was it Uct? I feel like you're going to tell me it was Uct.
In which case I'll hate you.

[Thor665]

I was doing it because if he died we'd get a confirmed town from your jail and also clear up the lingering doubts about him.
Now all we know is (maybe) he submitted a kill or scum tried to kill him.
Whoop-de-doo.

[Thor665]

It sounds ruddy amazing to me though.
The only way it's a bad idea is if lots of people think Uct looks town.

Oh, wait, no one does.

[Thor665]

Also, let's go with the idea that scum didn't no kill.

That means, by jailing Uct, you've proved nothing about him.
Maybe scum tried to kill him.
Maybe he's scum who tried to kill someone.
Which does town know to be true? None of it.

Now, let's say you jailed Zab, because lots of people suspect Zab.
Now, if Uct died or someone not Uct died (and I don't think scum, no matter who they are, would try to kill Zab) then we would now have confirmed town Zab.
I would love to have confirmed town Zab over maybe Doc/maybe scum Uct. I hate maybe Doc/maybe scum Uct - I don't want to have to keep wondering about that slot.
Instead we basically have a night which gave us zero information.

But tell me if you think we learned anything - I personally don't think we did, but if you think my plan is anti-town then I'm guessing ther's some pro-town info you think we gained. Lay it on me.

[Thor665]

I'll also admit, using someone else's scum meta to suggest a totally different player is scummy is pretty skeevy.

[Thor665]

No, because that could just b someone putting more emphasis on something than you agree with.
But there are obvious and blatant logical flaws in saying 'Player X, when scum, does A. Player Y is doing A, therefore Player Y is scum'
It just doesn't work.

[Thor665]

Could the people eager to lynch today explain why they think a lynch with low info is superior to a lynch with better info that we'll get tomorrow?

[Thor665]

I'm pretty sure 473 is functionally an explicit 'Zab/Mirhawk makes no sense post' personally.

[Thor665]

This idea reversed dramatically.

You did see the quote, yeah?
It made me rethink things - I *really* don't see that as a buddy/buddy comment.

[Thor665]

Vote: Leviathan

@Slimer - here's your reason to post, two players are at L-1.
Pick one.

[Thor665]

When you bus a buddy you don't do it as an alternate lurker lynch.
Next question?

[Thor665]

If you're both town it makes no never mind which one of you is lynched.
I also am rather sure that Zab is town, therefore I'd much rather someone who wasn't Zab be lynched.

[Thor665]

all my scum reads point to zab. and your making it possible for two people to get lynched gives me scummy vibes. i really doubt that is a town move trying to lynch two people. it shouldn't be an either or move of who to lynch. it should be a who you think is scum or could possibly be scum based on their actions in the game.

You have noticed that I called Zab likely town, right?

[Thor665]

I don't even understand how that is an issue.

[Thor665]

I'll agree two lynches is more likely to have a townie as a lynch option.
It is also more likely to have scum as a lynch option.

Whatever choice Slimer makes is, if he's town, no more or less inherently prone to failure than any of the votes on either you or Zab. It takes two to Tango and it takes plurality to lynch, and every vote matters.

[Thor665]

@Slimer - considering Edo is one of my stronger town reads and you are the other I have no idea why you expect me to agree o a plan of lynching him and then lynching you if Edo is town.

[Thor665]

PEdit: @Thor - PoE is leaving me with Edo and Penguin. What do you think of Penguin, and do you still think we'd be better off not lynching today?

Penguin is an acceptable lynch.
Edo is not.
No lynching is incredibly derpy and I never really supported it and just wanted to see who did - Edo fighting me on it for the right reasons is one of the points that paints him so clearly town.

[Thor665]

I'm willing to dance for that one.

Unvote: Leviathan
Vote: Penguin_Alien

[Thor665]

I'd ask Thor665 if he found anyone's reactions to his reaction-test relevent.

Which reaction test?

[Thor665]

To your vote for a no lynch I'm presuming Thor.

Maybe, but seeing as how I already explicitly explained a result I would tend to think that would be silly to ask.

[Thor665]

What zabriel said. So why are you pretending like you have no idea what you're talking about when I'm referencing something you explained less than five posts before mine? (and was a pretty obvious reaction test for anyone who's ever played with you or seen one of your games--Thor665 not wanting to lynch on such skimpy grounds?) To reiterate, I'm asking if you found anything relevant aside from enforcing Edosurist as town, a player whom no one has suggested as scum aside from theslimer3 who hasn't indicated that he stands or ever did stand by that read.

Nope, other than that I didn't get a lot of solid reads from it, but a describable piece of evidence to make Slimer stop running around with pants on his head can't be all bad.
Also, I didn't think you'd be asking about it since, as you just noted, I literally had just finished discussing what I'd learned, so... :shrug:

I still don't like leviathan93's attempting to dissuade us from lynches over the past three days in various places by saying that we shouldn't lynch unless we have optimal odds.

How is that scummy?
Also, what has Leviathan done to now shift him into being more scummy than Zab?

[Thor665]

Not unexpected.

I'll do up my patented big wall o' reads tomorrow for everyone.

[Thor665]

Thor's Big Wall o' Reads and Random Blather

(patent pending

Vintermute

- A lot of the reason you ended up dead was that you tended to speak before thinking, and also that, Day 1, most people thought Mirhawk was town. Overall your play really wasn't bad, it's just it wasn't brilliant either and that put you into the cross-hairs early. You really didn't do anything bad (except maybe that hammer thing...and that may have just been me) and the only real improvement that immediately comes to my mind is simply: play more. You'll get better and then you'll be even less likely to get lynched Day 1.

Mirhawk

- Obviously the biggest mistake you made was in submitting the kill That said, there's a reason I opened up Day 2 saying I wanted to lynch you or Uct, and that was your push on me Day 1. One of the biggest 'mistakes' I see newer scum make is this: they want to make sure their cases look legit, so they invent cases, come up with reasoning, and stick to their reads. The issue is, scum often stick to their reads in...odd ways, and I think you did that this game. You and I were having a discussion and I proved part of your case to not be valid and...nothing changed in your read. That's odd - note this last Day phase where I was okay lynching Zab, then a post was shown and suddenly I thought Zab was basically confirmed town? That's a town reaction - look at evidence, and if evidence changes what you think...well, good, let it change it! I would suggest trying to work that fluidity into your next scum game, I predict even less suspicion on you then, as your Day 1 play was otherwise really awesome.

Penguin_Alien

- You played a fine game, but came in at a point where the PoE was getting deadly and everyone was acting like obv. town and leaving you alone in the cold with no blanket. I, sadly, don't have a lot of brilliant advice for that, because there really isn't too much that can be done. I suppose my advice would be to argue about one of the town reads and try to stretch out the day - usually when I manage to win as scum in that sort of setup it's because I keep the day running long enough to allow town to start doubting their reads as people say derp things. Other than that (and suggesting Mirhawk do the kill ) you played an awesome game. I'll actually admit that I would have been happy with Uct death though...

Edosurist

- You played a super solid game here and were discussed by scum as a the top kill with me, and both of us were bandied about as threats of roughly equal/superior level to the two claimed PRs. Wash yourself in awesomesauce, my friend, you just played an awesome game. I literally have nothing I see as really needing work. Now, the hard part, try to do this every time you're town, and also when scum

Leviathan

- You were a weaker member in a town filled with players playing really strong games. You were NOT playing bad, you just weren't playing like a superstar (or as a claimed PR). If I had to point to something that was bad about you it would be this - I think you play a game that makes you look like town...but doesn't make you able to lynch scum. You always sounded unsure and nervous about your reads and posted in a way that made you look weak and harmless. That will help you live through the game, but it won't help you get people to vote scum and it also won't make scum fear you and NK you (which, as VT, is what you're supposed to be doing). Work on trying to sound more confident - even if you're not confident, just fake it a bit, but tha will earn you more respect and help you actually get to decide who is lynched by more than just your vote, because you'll control other votes.

Zabriel

- Don't be a lurk-sack man... Really, the best thing you had going for you was that Mirhawk thought you were a weak enough lurker he could get you lynched easily. To my mind, besides maybe Vint, you played the weakest town game - even though your posts were all good and well reasoned. It was the lurk that made you weak and a lynch target. I understand that not everyone can post to the levels I do (and, indeed, that's probably a good thing) but at the same time you want to post enough that people feel you're involved with the game. Even just a consistent one post a day (which you ought to be able to do, and if you can't you should play in less games at once) will go light years to making you a more functional town presence. I will say you did an awesome job in admitting you shared my Mirhawk issues, because you gave me a wagon to work with - like I said, your posts were good, it was your regularity that was weak.

Uctitron

- If you weren't the Doc you would have had issues this game...issues of rope stretching neck. First off, like I'll eventually also grumble at Slimer about, your decision not to listen to my advice on who to Doc was bad. Note that it left you thinking Slimer was scum (even though you had no evidence that supported that conclusion) and also that you ended up putting the much more powerful PR at risk. At that stage of the game you were a top suspect and the weaker PR - your job was to annoy scum and get NKed in a way that would leave town knowing what happened. Dear lord, if scum had figured you for a liar or someone who wouldn't listen to me they could have shot Slimer, and you would have been lynched Day 2 and this would have been a *totally* different game. Also, Day 1 - your push on Slimer was rough, he was clearly not going to be lynched, and you actually weren't trying to get him lynched that hard, but you left your vote on him for a lengthy period of time which was all just useless time. If your vote is on someone then try to get that person lynched with your words - and if you're not doing that do something useful with your vote. On the plus side, this all went well anyway, and now you can see some of the reactions from scum in their QT and understand how, as a suspected player, your job was to die leaving town a clear trail to follow. I will admit I liked your posts - when you did make them (don't lurk) you made them very clear, succinct, and pro-town...something other players here could learn from

Slimer

- Your jail of Uct Night 2 was silly. Yes, you saved his life, big whoop. If you had jailed Zab, or Levi and Uct had died we would have had confirmed town Zab/Levi to add to our pile of 'obv. town' Thor and Edo. If you had jailed Penguin we could have had a repeat of Day 2. You went off the tracks and robbed us of info, because your jail info became useless. As I pointed out, the only way your info was helpful was if you were already convinced that Uct was town or was scum - and you were not convinced of that, so... I found your play overall to be good, but mixed with you seeming to think some things were better than I think they were. A number of your comments left me going 'egads, I want that slot dead' because you were stating things I thought of as anti-town. Now, in the end, you were respectably accurate with your jails, and you claim to have been very accurate with your reads (though you didn't state them too loudly for the rest of the town, which was awkward). If your style helped you do that, then I would encourage you to stick with your style because clearly it works. If you are overplaying how clear those reads were, then I would encourage you to look at the comments I made about you during the course of the game - because I think they could help you. I would, at the very least, note that the only reason you were not lynched was you were a PR *and* I fought to avoid your lynch. No matter how you cut it that is not good, your style should not need to rely on being PR and having other people defend you to prevent a lynch Day 1. I do suggest you look at my comments about you Day 1 and see what you can adjust and still maintain your style.


Overall I think mostly everyone played well. We had bit of lurk and a bit of the usual newbie 'herpy-hey!' in the game, but everyone clearly was playing to win and even advancing cases and thoughts of their own without too much screaming from me (and that is MAGICAL! let me assure you). I would not only be happy to play with any of you again, there's a fair shake I would be excited to play with again, and I do not always say that at the end of a game. So kudos to the lot

If anyone wants me to expand on any of these thoughts, or to answer a specific question about my play, or to really blabber on about anything else, just ask. I'm here as a resource for you post game as well as during it. Ask here or via PM, and I will answer to the best of my abilities.

[Thor665]

A couple of analysis questions, if Thor665 (thanks for the feedback!) or anyone else wants to chime in: would having gotten a vote down on Day Two have helped my not looking so scummy, or with PoE did that not really factor in? In terms of picking a NK on Night Two, any thoughts on what a better strategy might have been? I think my best shot at prolonging Day Three would have been to try to figure out why theslimer3 had found Edosurist scummy on Day One and string that out, since no one was going to lynch an un-CC'd PR at that point and momentum had moved off zabriel and leviathan93?

You managing to vote Day 2 would have mattered nothing to me - you were scummy for other reasons and other players were looking strongly town for other reasons. I never even considered your voting history in having you as one of my top 2 to die.

By night 2 you guys were already in trouble. I think the Uct kill was a fine kill. Frankly, trying for a Slimer kill may have been rather worth it as well, considering how the PRs had been misbehaving. Really, you were dogged that day because of the Mirhawk jail - if Slimer had jailed anyone else and you guys had even just no killed then it would have been pretty solid for you as a play. The problem was I thought Mirhawk was scummy, it looks like Edo did as well, or was at least scummy enough to be worth lynching, and Slimer suspected him - that's three town with a decent desire to lynch one of the scum, and toss in a jail on top of that and Mirhawk was basically dead no matter what.

Probably if you'd just come up with a case that sounded sensible on Edo you might have managed to suck Slimer onto it. I would have been against it, but I don't know about the rest of the town - I don't think everyone shared my read on Edo, so he may have been lynchable.