Newbie 1316 - Carson City Crisis (Game Over)

[RagnarokCometh]

/confirm

I'd like to say hi to everyone in this game, wait while I reread the thread.

[RagnarokCometh]

I will

start

by unvoting hume.

VOTE: Unvote

What on earth was in the person in my roleslot's head when they thoughtlessly tunneled them. Goodness gracious.

I'd also like to add that I am not Galadriel and are therefore not entitled to explain any of my roleslot's past actions, I suggest you completely forget the null and heavily ridiculous posts that they've posted up till now.

Now here's what I found on a reread:
(Towniest at the top, scummiest at the bottom.)

Hume:

I know this ironic, but yes, my largest townread is the person that my player slot was previously tunnelling. Post#25 and Post#138 he's looked meta information up about players, might just be me but I

strongly

doubt that a mafia would actually go as far as to look meta information up especially were it their first game on site. Besides the aforementioned reason to townread him he's been actively contributing to the discussion and helping things moving along, while not being too pushy on Galadriel who was illogically tunnelling him for no good reason whatsoever. (A

very

easy push.)

Lohanoholic:

Post#98 and... Oh, he only posted one wall sized post, oh well. Regardless that post in particular struck me as insanely legitimate, although I strongly disagree with his derogatory tone as to how possible it is to find mafia this early in the game, when I was reviewing another game on the site I believe I called both scum off the first two(three?) pages.

~Not that that is particularly on topic, I'd like to see you post a little more and I advise you to take everything with a grain of salt, forum mafia might seem a little 'toxic' originally but after a while you'll realise that people aren't actually being aggressive and are just trying their hardest to question you to see if you're town via your reactions, none of said pushes on you are meant to be anything other than an attempt to unbalance you to learn clues to your alignment. In my personal opinion said pushes were entirely effective; you should warm up to the competitive forum mafia in no time, just stick with it a bit and you'll see that what I say is true.~

Ms Marangal:

Read this and if you tell me you still scumread him/her then I'm going to look at you with an inquisitive eye. Besides that tremendously towny post, she/he has been incredibly helpful and active within the town, I also suspect that the mafia intended to use her as an easy ml prior to her reacting strongly and ably.

Ravenpaw:

Post#32 was beautiful and means you're very likely town, your reactions haven't been the best over the day, but they can't do anything to nullify that beautiful second post. (From memory it was your first but on a quick check it was your second.) You being town is further asserted by lack of partner tells from among anyone.

Nachomamma8:

You're very very lightly leaning on the scum side of the radar, I'll ISO you to remember my exact reads on you. Dash that last sentiment, you're reading town if anything. Post#101 you explain your initial double vote which satisfies me, leaning town slightly.

Naomi-Tan:

Where to start, where to start, oh,

I'll ISO you to remind me exactly why I scumread you

. Oh, okay, you're not as bad as I originally remember, but your original push on Ms Marangal is legitimately terrible and is sort of the opposite of what needs to be encouraged since Ms Marangal was actually trying to figure out a logical reason to fos someone really early in the game. I see no reason why you should have pushed on that like you did, regardless your continued tunnelling doesn't exactly speak scum, on another note if you were actually scum you'd likely be with Nachomamma8 for your original defense and continued interactions throughout the day. (Written after I wrote the analysis on Mirhawk.)

Mirhawk:

I was originally going to put you at fourth towniest for being entirely null but after a quick ISO(That's what it's called when you scan one specific players posts right?) You're senselessly townreading chkflip for no good reasoning and spent far too long tunnelling Ms Marangal At the beginning of the game, in the scenario where chkflip is scum, you're very likely his partner. (Written fourth so before Nachomamma8 etc.)

chkflip:

I've waited a while to get to you, you're so likely scum that it isn't even funny. Post#28 Is a typical example of a bad push, Post#38 is also a typical example of a bad push. (Might add that it's an example of a bad push after the aforementioned bad push failed.) Post#77 Looks like an attempt to discredit Hume's perfectly reasonable logic. Post#87 He attempts to discredit Ms Marangal. Post#112 Is the opposite of the aforementioned posts but doesn't nearly do enough to recover from his first couple of posts. Post#125 Looks to me like something plomped on top of the aforementioned recovery post in an attempt to be townread. The metagame information under the nachomamma8 spoiler here doesn't discredit any of what I just said and only adds to it. Let me classify this simply; I'm incredibly suspicious of you and that isn't likely to change anytime soon, regardless of how well you attempt to explain your 3 original posts. (I did not include every post by chkflip in this analyzation.)

------------------------------------------------------

It is my belief that it's (more likely) Chkflip/Mirhawk or (less likely) Naomi-Tan/Nachomamma8

VOTE: chkflip

Discuss

@Lohanoholic:

Get an avatar please, not to be rude or anything, but it's hard to quickly read over the posts that you've made in the thread if you don't have an avatar to catch my eye. Thanks in advance.

[RagnarokCometh]

In response to Post#155

Elaborate, I'd love to hear how you can/would piece us together as a team and as to why the player previously in my role slot can/would have tunneled their partner illogically.

In response to Post#158

There are perks, In real life mafia you can't look over what everyone said during the entire game, whereas in forum/chat mafia you can review the game and while rereading notice slight team tells/bad pushes.

If the scum partners could actually analyze each other without any bias and play perfectly like they were town then this game would no longer have a point, and that's for people who have played lots of online mafia that have yet to achieve perfect town/mafia harmony. This is a newbie game, therefore several of the individuals are liable to give tells out which are actually really easy to analyze.
For instance: Mafia will often try to push an easy lynch first day if they think they can get away with it, Newer scum can try to buddy up to their partner, like mirhawk did to chkflip, and no I'm not saying that they absolutely 100% must be scum, I'm saying they're hellishly more likely to be scum than anyone else. I would actually be largely surprised at this point if chkflip were to not flip scum.

Also, I noticed the IC/SEs didn't put up an introductory piece like I've seen in other games, so let me put one in for them:(Try and fill this out if it's not too much bother, It's basically something so we can get more familiar with each other.)

1) How active do you expect to be?
2) How much experience in mafia do you have?
3) What do you expect to get out of this game?

My answers:

1) I expect to post at least twice a day.
2) Forum mafia I usually play 20+ people games but I've got a reasonable amount of experience there, chat mafia I've played over 1000 games last time I counted. My chat mafia play is however slightly different from my forum mafia play.
3) Not entirely sure? I briefly considered skipping to open games rather than playing newbie games, but I decided starting at the start would be better for me, just in case I

was

a little over my head.

[RagnarokCometh]

EBWOP: Thank you Lohanoholic for getting an avatar, much appreciated.

[RagnarokCometh]

In response to Post#161

Your points on hume not responding to galadriel and to me buddying hume are semi legitimate, I might as well point out that I've already pointed out that mafia tend to buddy their partners, which would make little sense were I to attempt the same tactic after mentioning that it was a scumtell, no? But you already said that the team however viable is unlikely, so I'll let that pass as an you voicing your personal thought process.

@Naomi-Tan

What's your personal thoughts on the cases put forth against chkflip?

P-Edit:

As much as I think chkflip is scum I want him to make a suitably sized defense post with his claim in it before hes hammered, since he is now at L-1

[RagnarokCometh]

In response to Post#165

Mirhawk can you then tell me where he's coming from in Post#38 when Lohanoholic had been attempting to vote that specific vote since before he joined the game, and where he's coming from when you read Post#110 to Post#153 in succession, where he seems certain originally yet admits it's a terrible vote later? (Last part is a part of analysis stolen from ravenpaw, but that doesn't change the validity of it.)

I'd really like to hear how you can explain how those seem genuine.

[RagnarokCometh]

I'll have a quick reread of the thread and post a revised reads post.

[RagnarokCometh]

EBWOP: I'll get to the post tomorrow, it's getting late here.

[RagnarokCometh]

Sorry, I've got to this is a little late, and it might be a little rushed.

In response to Post#193

1) 'Why does it matter who your predecessor was pushing?'

...It doesn't, it really doesn't, I merely put that in the post because it occurred to me at the time, do you have a problem with said addition?

2) 'What made the post town? I feel much more confident reading her off different things, is that post good just because it is long?'

a)Within that post she supplied meta games for us to analyse, I will have to admit that I was lazy and didn't end up reading the games, but the act of supplying meta is in of itself towny. b) I also liked the analysis in said post.

Regardless to that, I'm going to more thoroughly reread Ms M later in this post.

3) 'Explain beauty.
I understand what makes a post beautiful to me, but I don't really know what makes a post beautiful to you. Sell me.'

This is a really easy one to answer. What ravenpaw did was theoretical psychological analysis, and that in of itself is beautiful.

4)'no
these questions are useless
why are you asking these questions?'

...And this is coming from the IC, they are common ice breaker style questions that I happened upon quite a lot when I was rereading games. The very fact that you questioned the need is bewildering and dis-encouraging.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Townread
v
Scumread

Naomi-Tan

- Fillery and null mostly over d1, Post#175 and Post#176 personally strike me as heavily legitimate, and therefore making them town. I also find it hard to believe a mafia would be willing to draw that much attention to themselves by hammering,

Solid townread

on Naomi-Tan.

Lohanoholic

- Reading as highly genuine, minimum input, scum attempt to seem town in most cases, still reading as a townread.

Nachomamma8

- Last post was blech, but been null leaning town for the rest of the game, I read him as null.

Ravenpaw

- Incredible early post, however over an ISO of the posts after that I'm not sure, reading as fairly null. (Would have put in the scum catagory but this? post came of as towny.) (Including This post for reference, appears to be an opportunistic push.)

Mirhawk

- Teamtell is no longer there. Hmmm, I'll ISO. Horrible horrible horrible tunnell of Ms Mangaral early d1, nothing interesting apart from that, not scumreading Ms. Mangaral anymore whatsoever? At the end of d1 he was fairly adamant.

@Mirhawk

Explain why your reads are flipping around.

Ms Marangal

- Sorry to say this, but an ISO... Dash it. Post#128 Looks good. Nah, actually I'm going with my read, You look somewhat forced, as in you look like you're inventing towntells out of thin air. I personally believe you to be mafia from your interactions. The things I dislike most is how you've moved off being pushy entirely when you were incredibly pushy on the day prior, and that you being mafia would actually make a good explanation as to why hume died, considering that you were hume's secondary scumread? (Not looking back, but that's what I recall it to be.) You/raven would also make sense as mafia team. Have at it. (This is not a suspicion that is unable to change.)

VOTE: Ms Mangaral

I currently believe that it's very possibly Ms M/Ravenpaw.

Nacho/Naomi-tan is no longer viable when naomi-tan is now so blatantly obvious town.

P-Edit: Ms M has already addressed my concerns with Mirhawk.

[RagnarokCometh]

EBWOP:

VOTE: Ms Marangal

Sorry for the typo.

[RagnarokCometh]

Sorry, I was a little rushed last night and didn't include some of the information I would have liked to.

In response to Post#198

In retrospect it could have been, regardless of the value of the analysis which you produced in the post, it was pushing someone onto the last vote until lynch. At the time I very strongly believed chkflip to be scum and was basing my scumread on mirhawk strongly around that read. The fact that chkflip flipped town means that I have to completely reconstruct my reads.

Lohan/Naomi-Tan strongly read town for reasons that I've stated earlier.

I had to look past my previous team tells and look for new ones.

Post#32 is the central piece of it. Yes, the post in of itself is beautiful, but you could be insuatingly defending Ms Marangal, which is what I'm counting on. (Post#49 can also been seen as a defense the other side around, which is why this is a viable pairing.)

Also, on a quick reread the nightkill likely happened because mafia thought Post#172 was a power role soft. Therefore all read benefits from the perspective of players that wanted to kill certain people during the previous day are nullified.
That being said, I'm still suspicious of Ms Marangal.

In response to Post#199

...Hold that thought.

Before I respond to that I quickly checked up on naomi-tan's previous games and the two games she was town she was

actively scumhunting

and the game where she was scum she wasn't. This game is much more similar to her scumgame than it is to her towngame.

Now re:
In response to Post#199

And yes, my reasoning did look similar to chkflips which I degraded so thoroughly, but that's what the words came out when I tried to quickly spell my gut out into the page. I've posted the teamtell above.
My reasoning on you was not strong, it was however the strongest that I had at the time.

Townread
v
Scumread

Lohanoholic

- Rubs off as extremely genuine.

Nachomamma8

- Supplied good logic for the thing I didn't like again, resumes his place as null leaning town. (Will check meta later.)

Ravenpaw

- still null, all scumtells removed by equally effective towntells.

Mirhawk

- Waiting on a question, null leaning scum for reasons in last post.

Ms Marangal

- Mostly gut as to why I slightly scumread now, will check meta later.

Naomi-Tan

- Regardless of tells of aforementioned reads, Newbie#1298 and Newbie#1394 she was town and was incredibly helpful, Newbie#1286 she was scum and considerably less helpful. She isn't being even half as helpful as either of her town games right now.

UNVOTE: Ms Marangal

VOTE: Naomi-tan

Before you make comments of flittering reads read the games and tell me your personal reads on naomi-tan.

[RagnarokCometh]

In response to Post#210

Team reads are my favourite scumhunting tool. So yes, I don't entirely expect you to understand, but if somebody is obviously not in a team with anyone then they're obviously town, and vice versus.

You switched round because my reads changed, same with naomi. I read naomi as town because I read her as genuine after she hammered and the early posts of today. I already explained that in my post, didn't you read the read column at all? And she has switched round once again because meta information dictates as such, and YES, meta can be used when it's as blatantly obvious as this is. In all games she was town she often wrote long reeling posts and used minimal emotional extras. Whenever she was scum she supplied plenty of emotional extras and didn't write long posts, if you didn't realise that when you made a pitiful defense for her then you didn't even read the games I supplied.

My read on you switched because I slowly switched my read on ravenpaw, and I'd like to think of ravenpaw as scum. But in the event ravenpaw is scum you'd very likely be his partner, therefore lynching you is more optimal than lynching him, per se. And after an ISO you drifted off on scumhunting when it came into d2. I already explained that you targeting hume made sense because most townread him and his secondary scumread was you I do believe.

'Why is it Ok for me to tunnel in on Naomi when I decided that she was town before doing so?'

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here.

You fishing excuse could easily be wifom and is therefore irrellivent. I didn't bring up my badly explained version of thinking you were looking forced because in a quick iso your posts seemed logical and I had chkflip, who I scumread incredibly heavily if you hadn't already figured out illogically discrediting you. I guess I gave you a pass and placed you in the townreads because regardless of whether it was forced, your logic

was

logical, and were therefore not someone I wanted to remove first day. I pushed on you today sort of as a whim to see how you'd react, at that point I wasn't even vaguely sure that you were mafia but I had to implode my reads because I townread most of the players alive. I had to look past the basic tells and looked for people who were deflecting things off them, you/raven was where I ended up, I am however rather freakishly certain that Naomi-tan is mafia simply because she's attempting to stay under the radar.

As for the last piece, I've already addressed that, none of her posts contain ANY reads, whereas when she's town she puts reads all over the place.

[RagnarokCometh]

Sorry, I sort of put this off for a little bit, I'll read up on what I missed.

[RagnarokCometh]

It's late and I'm going to skim the reads through in this post because I've already written it up once but I missclicked and lost the entire thing.

Townread
v
Scumread

Ms Mangaral:

Yes, my reads are changing like quicksilver, however, knowing that I'd be scumread for these actions, do you think I'd willingly change my reads this fast with that knowledge? Like I've stated in earlier posts my scumread on mangaral was entirely because of gut, with little or no logic to back it up. I liked one~ of her posts. (The one where she said she needed to rest before providing reads.) Simply because you don't need to rest as mafia before bsing reads.

Lohanoholic:

Read is the same as before

Nachomamma8:

Read is the same as before. (I actually checked up his meta today and emphasized how little information he gave as either alignment in the post I killed accidentally, but I'm going to suffice with this for now.)

Ravenpaw:

Read is the same as before.

Mirhawk:

I have trouble reading people who tunnel me, read unchanged.

Naomi-tan:

Read is basically unchanged I actually added some things in the last post but I can't really remember anything apart from the fact that her original posts today have nothing to do with me voting her.

@Nacho

What's your read on ravenpaw? Do you think she's going for an opportunistic push?

@Ms Mangaral

It wants me to log in to view your meta.

@ Mirhawk:

-first point is about galadriel. Her last post was easily far enough into the game for her to at least move her vote to one of the players she was actually accusing. I'm still puzzled as to why she did not.

..I can't defend this.

-Gives Raven and Ms.M pro towncred in second post for making posts that weren't really all that great. Read like buttering up.

Are you attempting to be insulting or did you just not read the thread. I already explained both reads to nacho, What ravenpaw did was theoretical psychological analysis. And what Ms mangaral did was supply meta on herself, which in of itself is a towny action.

-Next post feels like an attempt to establish a presence in the game without actually commenting on it.

It appears you don't like RQS's.

-Wanted a "suitably sized defense post" from chkflip, which is both a ridiculous thing to say as well as a bit of a obvious bid for towncred.

Three cases were displayed against chkflip, he had defended against none of them, I was not about to have him hammered when he'd yet to defend himself. Also, you still haven't answered my question as to how you failed to scumread the few specific things I pointed out about chkflip, him flipping town doesn't change your need to explain what you didn't.

-Order on town charts don't match up (in my opinion) to the descriptions of the reads

What weren't you happy with.

-post 208 was deliberately typed in a way to make it look like he had some sort of sudden epiphany halfway through it. And frankly I don't believe that.

You can believe that if you want, however do you see a reason for me to fake that as scum?

-doesn't use quote tags when quoting. This somewhat annoys me.

Oh, you'll be glad to know this is the second write up for this post specifically BECAUSE I decided to use quote tags rather than use parenthesis.
Also, including this in your case against me is baffling and confusing.

[RagnarokCometh]

@Ms Marangal

Not really, I've been mafia in games before and bsed something really crappy at 2 am. (Correction, it wasn't really that crappy, but I had just pieced something together which wasn't legitimate at all.)

Whereas as town you want to be sure that your reads are solid.

Also, making the assumption that nacho and Ms Mangaral are town:
Ravenpaw isn't mafia with Naomi-Tan. (Basic logic, don't even need to bring it up.)
Ravenpaw isn't mafia with Mirhawk. (Off hand comment that I gave ravenpaw towncred for nothing, he wouldn't discredit something on his partner that simply.)
Ravenpaw isn't mafia with Lohanoholic. (Basic logic, don't even need to bring it up.)

Assuming my two townreads are correct, ravenpaw is town by default. I'm paranoid of a Ravenpaw/Nacho team, but that's just paranoia, logic says otherwise.

@Ravenpaw:

Sorry to answer this so late, but I'm not entirely sure who naomi-tan's partner is, if of course she is actually mafia, but at a guess I'd say that nachomamma8 at this point is DEFINITELY not the theoretical partner, it would be entirely too obvious, and Lohanoholic's interactions are questionable? But not necessarily that of partner/partner. Maybe I'll have more on this later.

[RagnarokCometh]

EBWOP:

@Ms Marangal:

My point was that my reads changing like that is a towntell or wifom, and was there incase someone tried to push on me for changing reads.

Also, I'm not positive naomi-tan is mafia, my reasoning isn't entirely solid, since it's founded in meta. Something seems off, something is just not quite right.

I can't put my finger on it.

Good lord Lohanoholic seemed legitimate, but they're in the realms of infinite null right now, I retract my townread until they start talking again. (Or are replaced?)

No, that isn't what was off. That's just something that occured to me on the side. Last night I figured out a easy poe table that effectively basically confirmed Mirhawk as mafia. But then I remembered Lohanoholic, who wasn't present in the poe table, and I realised things were much more complicated.

[RagnarokCometh]

@Naomi-Tan:

Poe == Process of elimination.
(The specific table townread nacho and ms mangaral, and decided that raven wasn't bussing, making mirhawk mafia by default. With lohanoholic added, said table only dictates that mirhawk or lohanoholic is mafia, which is far too loose to be an effective poe table seeing as poe tables can easily be wrong.)

@Mirhawk:

Interesting, the scenario you proposed is entirely plausible which means I have to reevaluate where you're coming from. However, it makes the assumption that I'm bad enough at this game to fake something that looks that illegitimate, whereas I was just too lazy to destroy the part of the post that I'd already written, what actually happened was I was writing the post and just as I was in the middle of making a critical analysis of Naomi-Tan, and then I recalled that prior to that I wanted to check up on naomi-tan's meta. (So I did it prior to finishing the piece of analysis, incase the meta invalidated what I was writing. (It turned out it did too.)) I could have been less lazy and removed the section that I wrote and rewrote the new section in a much more complete manner, but I wasn't, and I didn't. Which as in has turned out has cost me. (However, if you reread my previous posts before that I'm continuously putting things in as they occur to me and not removing anything.)
Tell me, after rereading the linked games, what's your opinion of Noami-Tan's current play compared to the games linked?

@Ms Mangaral:

Omgus is something town do more than scum, since scum will attempt to avoid the amount of attention such an action incurs. (Whereas town often will act impulsively without thinking about how much that will get them in trouble.)
Also, yes, I'm very self-conscious; I don't believe my play on that specific area changes from town to scum, I like to fully explain everything I do and the pros and cons of mafia doing it so they can't randomly push a wagon on me. (And it's generally an attempt to be townread, which I will shamelessly admit, because being townread is useful as either alignment.(But not an artificial one, because faking reactions in a bid to be townread isn't good play, whereas fully explaining anything you do has no negative side effects.))

I'd put more in, but I addressed the major issues. (I think?) And I need to go to sleep now.

[RagnarokCometh]

EBWOP:

Why did you hammer, Naomi-Tan? We have another 6 and a bit days until the deadline. That's almost 50% more time than we've used so far, and that's time we couldn't really afford to waste. RagnarokCometh has only just entered the game and has yet to be questioned on any serious scale.

chkflip hasn't yet been talked into giving a more rigorous defense.

Neither Nachomamma8 nor Mirhawk have said much about their thoughts on the lynch. There are number of reasons we could have decided to change the subject of today's lynch given more time, and we'd have received a lot more information in doing so. I can't see a good reason behind deciding now was the time to hammer. We're now in twilight. Anything we do or so now is just providing extra material for scum to inform their nightkill, without really making things much clearer for ourselves given we'll have to re-evaluate everything anyway in the context of whether chkflip is scum or not and who is the subject of the NK; further posts from this point have an extremely limited value.

So asking chkflip for a defense was a bid for a towntell eh?
This is just to eliminate the incredibly bewildering talk of how me asking for such was 'weird'.

[RagnarokCometh]

I can definitely see a possibility of Lohanoholic/Naomi-Tan, Not saying that they are definitely a team.

I have a few questions:

@Ravenpaw:

What do you think of Nachomamma8, do you think he's cruising on our lack of ability to scumread him?

@Naomi-Tan:

What words were you having trouble reading? Also, I outlined in my last post that lying for the effect you just did wasn't good for town, why did you attempt to deny having seen it at all and why did you see a need to do it in the first place when no one in particular had scumread you entirely? Ms Mangaral townread you, and so did several other people, I believe I was one of the people pushing hardest on you by the end of yesterday, whereas you were my third scumread, and were rather null too, what did you think you'd achieve by the action? And do you think you've learnt a lesson never to do it again as either alignment?

I'd be rather interested to hear what you think of nachomamma8 in detail, particularly his attempt at a mirhawk bandwagon, do you think his bandwagon on mirhawk has any good logic in it?

@Lohanoholic:

Nacho's point on mir was that he wasn't admitting that he did anything wrong, whereas the other tunnelers fully admitted that they might have made a minor mistake. Eh, I'm not about to defend nacho overly but you should iso his posts to find the reasoning.

Who would you lump in as my partner in the theoretical case that I was scum?

Nachomamma8:

If you think ravenpaw's push is very genuine why don't you like the bandwagon on naomi-tan, what then do you think is wrong with it?

Mirhawk:

Defend yourself against Nachomamma8 please, I'll be extremely interested in how that specific conflict works out.

Ms Mangaral:

If you suspect mir as much as you make me believe that you do in your last post then why aren't you voting him?

[RagnarokCometh]

Actually marangal I'm going to just throw this out there but I honestly don't think Mirhawk is scum, and this is why:

Nacho is tunneling him, not a team.
This analysis is assuming you're town.
...
Mirhawk is going to hate me for this. I just tried to find something conclusive on Mirhawk/Naomi not being a team (Like I remembered seeing something.) but turned up with absolutely nothing, regardless, this is from your perspective, and you townread Naomi, so we'll let this team possibility pass. (Personally this means that lynching naomi > Lynching mir from my point of view because in the event that mir is scum naomi-tan is as well.)
This analysis is assuming I'm town. (*cough* *cough* Although the tunnel he's going on me says something about the possibility of us being a team.)
Lohanoholic's early d1 reactions with him aren't that of a partner/partner.
Ravenpaw is totally on a team with him. /sarcasm (Their interractions says things about that.)

I may be wrong on one or more point, however, I very much doubt it.

Yes, my reads are all over the place. No, this is not a scumtell.

[RagnarokCometh]

@Naomi-Tan:

Would would at least one of the people that are tunneling you have to be scum?
Why don't you think scum would be hanging back to force town verse town?

I'm getting brickwall effect from Nacho right now, he's not letting all that much information out, but that's usually a sign of experience, therefore something I should have expected.
Although I get a gut feeling that he's randomly doing things for reactions all over the place, which is slightly weird but not at all anti-town.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eh.

UNVOTE: Naomi-Tan

VOTE: Lohanoholic

Discuss.

Townread
v
Scumread

Mirhawk
Ms Marangal
Nachomamma8
Ravenpaw
Naomi-tan
Lohanoholic

(Not going to repeat reasoning over and over again, I think I'll just list them in the order I'm comfortable with, and if you want to know my reasoning for a certain position of a certain person, or a the reason that a read switches round from one side to the other, you can ask me.)

[RagnarokCometh]

Lying is always, always a bad idea, that is if you're town. (Thing is mafia are forced to lie/fake reactions when they play, therefore a townie doing that to attempt to get town points means that that specific town is playing from a mafia point of view, and therefore will disrupt other player's scum hunting. (tl;dr: What town is looking for when they look for scum is forced/faked reactions. Therefore faking them as town means mafia can fake them and get away with it easily.)

@Ms Marangal:

Why is lohanoholic not scum? I've been clinging onto the heavily legitimate semi-rage post early on, but recent events have reminded me that legitimate reactions are ever so much easier to fake on forums than they are chat services. (Where I've been playing mafia recently.) Therefore that post is wifom and therefore irrelevant. Once you take away that wifom, Lohanoholic has done

absolutely nothing

, which combined with the fact that I townread You, Nacho and mirhawk, and the fact that I read Naomi-tan/Ravenpaw as most definitely not a team, means that Lohanoholic is mafia simply by poe.

So, instead of asking 'why is lohanoholic scum?', you should be asking 'Why is mirhawk town?', since I included him on the top of my townreads last post. The reasons for that is an infinite lack of teamtells;
He discredited my towntells on ravenpaw/You here:

@Ragnarok

Are you attempting to be insulting or did you just not read the thread. I already explained both reads to nacho, What ravenpaw did was theoretical psychological analysis. And what Ms mangaral did was supply meta on herself, which in of itself is a towny action.

This is retarded. Ravenpaws post is a mishmash of unsupported guesses and paranoia. As for Ms.M's supplied meta, this isn't much of a townie action seeing as how the meta was requested from her by hume.

(He wouldn't have been so fast to attack my reasoning on both of you if either was his partner.)

Possible partner after current points:

Naomi-Tan

You

Nachomamma8
Lohanoholic

Ravenpaw

Nachomamma8 has been ceaselessly tunneling him.

Possible partner after current points:

Naomi-Tan

You

Nachomamma8

Lohanoholic

Ravenpaw

...Okay okay I screwed up again, Naomi-Tan/Mirhawk is actually possible as well as Lohanoholic/Mirhawk.

But another reason that he's town is that he's beginning to agree with some of my points but hasn't unvoted yet, whereas a scum would assumably attempt to look strong at all points, rather than have something that is so very attackable like that. W/e he could be scum, I'm not going to say right here that he isn't, I'm only going to say that with the current evidence I believe

both

Naomi-Tan and Lohanoholic to be more likely scum.

Another reason that lohanoholic is scum is the fact that she's not omgusing because you informed her what it is, which means she's just shown will to not do something scummy, town assumably wouldn't even care about being scummy and would throw themselves headfirst into the fray.

Townread
v
Scumread

Ms Mangaral
Nachomamma8
Ravenpaw
Mirhawk
Naomi-Tan
Lohanoholic

[RagnarokCometh]

Oh well, no one else's posted anything yet.

Might as well make a table of possible teams~
(Listed in my townreads at the top and my scumreads at the bottom, in order.)

Ms Mangaral Possible Teams:

Nachomamma8

Ravenpaw

Mirhawk

Naomi-Tan

Lohanoholic

Not in a team with mirhawk because of the reasons stated above.
Not in a mafia team with Lohanoholic otherwise d1 wouldn't have happened.

UNVOTE:

Nacho votes for Jellyfish after me? I find that interesting though looking at the OP, he's the IC and I don't think someone with that much experience would make such an error. I also find it interesting that Iohan doesn't participate in the RVS stage but rather, decides to wait until someone is close to being lynched to make his vote

FOS/ Nacho and Iohanoholic

Oh, not in a team with nacho either.

I also find it interesting that Iohan doesn't participate in the RVS stage but rather, decides to wait until someone is close to being lynched to make his vote

sorry, not much time, so was just skim reading and missed that part. While I agree with taking part on the joke votes (unless the phase is over/your limited access) I dont think you can jump to the 'waiting until someone is close to being lynched' part when no one has been getting close to lynch

UNVOTE
VOTE: Ms Marangal

You attacked someone for random voting the same person as you, for a different 'jokey' reason, which is a good thing. However, you proceeded to say that a town member would be worried about miss lynching, partially when said person hasn't given out a defence, implying you can defend random votes upon you.

You also appear to be throwing out suspicions without voting upon them, meaning you are either; a) looking for someone else to lead the lynch or, b) know that if someone looked into it, you couldn't properly defend your vote.

you also attacked someone who failed to place a random vote during RVS, thats a good thing, however the addintional section where you talk about them waiting for someone to be close to lynch, isn't even possible at this stage

long story short, your making people appear to be worse than they are, which I find scummy.

Look at that, not with Naomi-Tan either.

That Ms Mangaral/Ravenpaw thing I was thinking about earlier is annoying me a little more than it was before now.

Nachomamma8 Possible Teams:

Ms Mangaral

Ravenpaw

Mirhawk

Naomi-Tan
Lohanoholic

I need to get a much much better read on this one, hmmmm.
(Reasons for mirhawk given in post above.)

Ravenpaw Possible Teams:

Ms Mangaral
Nachomamma8

Mirhawk

Naomi-Tan

Lohanoholic

Reasons for mirhawk given in post above.
*cough* Tunneling *cough*. (Naomi-tan/Raven isn't exactly likely.)
D1 tunnel on Lohanoholic.

Mirhawk Possible Teams:

Ms Mangaral

Nachomamma8

Ravenpaw

Naomi-Tan
Lohanoholic

Reasons given in above post.

Naomi-Tan Possible Teams:

Ms Mangaral

Nachomamma8

Ravenpaw

Mirhawk
Lohanoholic

Ms Mangaral was explained earlier in this post. (Yes, I wrote that bit before this bit this time.)
Ravenpaw isn't exactly likely to be her partner.

Lohanoholic Possible Teams:

Ms Mangaral

Nachomamma8

Ravenpaw

Mirhawk
Naomi-Tan

Ms Mangaral d1 zzzzzzzz
Ravenpaw also d1.
(d1 information is much more reliable than d2 information, as mafia will be getting a better hang of how to play and will be slipping more things in now that they're feeling a little more confident.)

-------------------------------------------------

And with that I think I'll get off for the night.

That's my take on the possible teams, which probably doesn't mean much to you, but it gives me a lot of information.

Also, as a question for everyone one to answer, who do you think is scum

with

your top scumread, I'm not asking for your top two scumreads, I'm asking who you think is most likely to be scum with your top scumread.

[RagnarokCometh]

@Nacho

what's NS mean?

@Ragnarok

what made you change your mind on a Nacho/Naomi team? Because before you said that Nacho is definitely not Naomi’s theoretical partner (and even capitalised the letters of definitely to emphasise your point), but in your teams table you do have them listed as possible partners with no explanation on this.

It was late and I barely managed to put in some of the more solid impossible teams, that being said I'm still of the opinion that Naomi/Nacho are

not

a team. (AKA I forgot to put it in.)

Oh a side note, Lohanoholic/Naomi-Tan is a very viable team, the only problem with it is that mirhawk is murdering himself with a logic loop.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nacho, what's your read on Lohanoholic? Is it the same as before or has it changed?

Naomi-Tan, what was your read on lohanoholic again? And has it changed after my last post?

@Mirhawk:

Basically the reason nacho is tunneling you is because you accused somebody of being scummy for doing something that you yourself were doing, which in of itself states from your perspective that what they were doing could have been done from a townies perspective, and is therefore not a scumtell, yet you pushed on it.
That's what we're talking about hypocrisy, and why it would be a scumtell in this instance.

[RagnarokCometh]

Oh my goodness I'm currently torn between voting someone I extremely heavily scumread or someone that just posted something that looks more opportunistic than I've seen in a long time.

That being said, Ms Mangaral, what is your read on nacho.

Mirhawk, what is your read on Lohanoholic.

Nacho, did you get what you wanted to? Or are you still waiting for it?

[RagnarokCometh]

Oh well, so much for solid reads...

Townread
v
Scumread

Mirhawk
Ms Mangaral
Nachomamma8
Ravenpaw
Lohanoholic
Naomi-Tan

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Naomi-Tan

Mirhawk is reading as really not faked right now, which is invalidating his sort of panicky vote on Naomi-tan for me... At least for now.

@Ravenpaw:

Mirhawk was the oportunist and the person I was voting was my scumread, AKA lohanoholic.

(Now for another obvious bid for a towntell...)

Naomi-Tan is now at L-1, this time no one is going to hammer without the lynchee at

least

claiming, hopefully we'll get a defensive post but with the lynch target I'm not 100% sure.

[RagnarokCometh]

oh, I just caught something else... You stated that Naomi and Raven are unlikely to be a part of a team, yet immediately after, you list them as a solid possibility?

as for my question, I was asking for your reasons for thinking that I could be in a team with Lohan, then supplied what I would be doing had we both been scum. I don't see a me and Lohan to be a viable team which is why I asked for your reasons.

Goodness gracious you're literally digging everything you can up without even checking how legitimate it is first, what you're talking about is him listing which of my nonteams were solid nonteams.

Also, that being said I'm nearly positive Ravenpaw is actually town by this point.

Townread
v
Scumread

Ravenpaw
Nachomamma8
Mirhawk
Ms Mangaral
Lohanoholic
Naomi-Tan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Waiting for Naomi-Tan~

Okay, random question time.

Nachomamma8, could I get a list from you consisting on who you think is the scummiest to the towniest and why in one post? (Not really a question but eh.)

Ravenpaw, what will you do if Naomi-Tan flips town?

Mirhawk, Oh god damn it, I just sat here for 30 seconds trying to think of a question, so I'll ask something simple, what do you think of the prospect of a Naomi-Tan/Nachomamma8 team.

(Oh, on other news, I finally unqualified Naomi-Tan/Nachomamma8 as a lack of a team.)

Ms Mangaral, if I was scum, who do you think would be my partner? (Weird question, but they come in all types, I'm actually looking forward to the answer to this.)

Lohanoholic, please provide a reads list from scummiest to towniest with reasoning as to why the list is made like it is.

Naomi-Tan, make a defense post?

[RagnarokCometh]

EBWOP: I just realised my reads are actually like this when I was talking to myself:

Townread(+)
v
Scumread(-)

Ravenpaw+
Nachomamma8
Ms Mangaral
Mirhawk
Naomi-Tan-
Lohanoholic-

I actually do really want lohanoholic today, oh well, t'was not to be.

[RagnarokCometh]

Okay Ms. M,

now

you're annoying me.

@Ragnarok
Minor townread. To be honest a fair bit of the read I have on him is motivated by the urge to not second guess all of my reads. His early play made me think town even if his later play doesn't so much.

Where has Rag defended himself well?

What specific associations is he ruling out too easily?

Rag's response to my accusations felt pretty measured. He responded to many of the points and gave consideration to why I might have made some of the others. Also despite that still kept scumhunting throughout. I dunno, from my perspective it felt pretty good.

As for the ruling out associations, almost all of them. I admit there's a couple that are a pretty good indicator of who wouldn't be on teams.

Ravenpaw and Naomi for example are unlikely because Ravens hard bus was completely unnecessary and getting Naomi lynched when there was no real suspicion on her would hurt his win condition if they were on a team. But most of the others are too light for me to give any serious consideration to.

That being said there are only three that I think are that very solid.
-Raven/Naomi
-Raven/Lohan
-Ms.M/Lohan (this one's kinda sketchy though)

Are you illiterate, or are you just going out of your way to make me think you are?

Funny you should ask that, when was the last time I had put real pressure upon you? my most recent focus has been Mir and trying to keep Naomi from being lynched but fine, I'll give my team reads. I have one that I have been interested in throughout the second day and have kept quiet about it as I observed it going on


Day one, I didn't get alot between the two of you however that is more likely because your predecessor was hardly active. Day two is a completely different story. through out the day, you made various town/scum lists that feature all the players moving around... all except Mirhawk who you have kept at Null the entire time. almost like you didn't want him to receive any more pressure that he had garnered from Nacho, myself, or Raven. of course, as soon as I made this association, Mirhawk had voted you making me shifty in my views however I do view him as someone confident in his play, and he really didn't place to much pressure as he had when he voted me earlier on. Another thing that interesting to note is that, as soon as he decides that he isn't going to get more information out of you, he unvotes yet, yesterday he kept his vote on me the entire day regardless of what he learned. he didn't even move to some of the more obvious choices out there, to me it read that he didn't want to place to much pressure on you, but had you ended up being scum he had the best cover to cruise the rest of the day as he was the first to vote you. not to mention that he has placed every player as a being a part of a possible team except for you and himself... strange don't you think?

1) You obviously don't possess the ability to ISO because Mirhawk has been flittering around my reads for a while, also, if mirhawk flips scum now I will eat my hat.
2) He changed his vote this time in a very obviously panicky attempt for survival; this is null, either side has more chance of winning if they aren't lynched, therefore the 'opportunistic' as I called it vote switch is completely null, and therefore putting anything onto the read for it is really

really

stupid.
3) ...Where did he place a number of people on teams, oh right, you're including that piece you misread

twice

.
4) You stated in a earlier post when mirhawk voted me that you didn't think we were partners, at that point you made absolutely no effort to find another possible mafia, and continued to focus on me and mirhawk, why?

Right now I'm nearly 100% certain mirhawk is town, if you believe me to be mirhawk's partner, then you can lynch me instead.
If you believe me to be a scum white knighting mirhawk to get townread after he flips town like he will, then you can lynch me instead.
If you believe I'm misguided town, then you're going to look really bad when mirhawk flips town.
However, if you at all hold any belief that I solely am mirhawks partner, then

I'm a better lynch than mirhawk.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Okay guys, take a look at this:

And Rag's original poster was the one who was shooting for the eventual dead victim

, and as soon as he came in he seemed to be over-earnest in proving himself as innocent. But who really knows.

I just said that I felt that one of those who didn't lynch last round is a mafioso

. Which could be totally off-base. And of the 2 others who didn't lynch, Nacho just seemed sightly more likely to be scum. He doesn't ping my radar as much as others do though.

So, being on the lynch train for the eventual lynch is scummy.
And being off the lynch train for the eventual lynch is scummy.

This is what you call a scum

attempting

to scumhunt, their thoughts aren't

actually

conclusive, and they freaking

contradict

themselves.

W/e I'll switch back to naomi if mir looks like he'll get lynched, because mir is town. Derp.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Lohanoholic

Townread(+)
v
Scumread(-)

Ravenpaw(+)
Mirhawk(+)
Nachomamma8
Ms Mangaral
Naomi-Tan(-)
Lohanoholic(-)

Nachomamma, would you be object to voting lohanoholic? The only reason anyone has supplied for them being town is them coming across as legitimate, which has already been proven with naomi-tan to be a fallacy.

Ravenpaw, could you stop and consider the possibility of Lohanoholic being scum? Because I'm pretty damn sure that Lohanoholic is scum, surer than I am on Naomi-Tan

Mirhawk, Can you please look past thinking Lohanoholic is rubbing off as legitimate? Do you really think they would have contradicted themselves like this as town?

Naomi-Tan.... I can't be bothered checking what your read on lohan was, respond to my other questions first.

Ms Mangaral, Can you look past the possibility of a me/mirhawk team because I personally know I'm not scum and I'm fairly damn sure he isn't scum, if one or both of us were town, who would be scum? Lohanoholic, obviously.
Oh, and I might add that playing like this as scum would be borderline moronic, so the very fact that you possess the ability to scumread me even slightly right now is bewildering.

Just... People vote lohan, like, before monday hits.

[RagnarokCometh]

Ms M, I'm assuming that you got a guilty on mirhawk, otherwise you wouldn't have claimed.

Also, it is not wifom that I'm using to defend myself, I'm pointing out how incredibly stupid it would for me to play this way as scum, do you believe I put myself at heavy risk defending myself with 'wifom' as scum? Do you honestly think I would put myself in such danger? The reason you scumread me is only

proving

my point.

Also, Claiming cop as scum on misslynch with a guilty is genuinely retarded, and I don't believe you to be genuinely retarded so I believe you to be cop by default.

Ravenpaw, is that a cop cc? And if so, what is your report?

Also, Ms Mangaral, I'm going to say this one more time, exactly how moronic scum do you think I'd be? Let's see how far you're willing to bet I'm trying to make you townread me.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mirhawk

Also, if you're cop with another report than mirhawk being scum then you're moronic, just saying.

[RagnarokCometh]

EBWOP: Eating hat time.

[RagnarokCometh]

EBWOP:

IF anyone hammers this before the cops can confirm and state their report respectively than I will automatically assume that person is scum.

P-EDIT: UNVOTE:

Ms Mangaral, can you confirm the guilty on mirhawk? If so, lynching you is town autowin.

[RagnarokCometh]

EBWOP(3rd):

Clarification: If you still claim cop with guilty on mirhawk then assuming you were cop that would make mirhawk and raven mafia by default. We could lynch you, and in the event that you flipped town, we could use the remaining lynches on the now 100% confirmed scum. (Assuming you didn't flip something else than cop.)
So, if you aren't cop, regardless of your alignment, I suggest you retract. And if you are cop? Then good game.

[RagnarokCometh]

Oh, right, nevermind then.

Ms Mangaral, you're possibly one of the most annoying players that I've played with, exactly what was the point of fishing out the cop? And in the case that you didn't and mirhawk was lynched,

and

he flipped town, what would you have done then? You would have probably been autolynched. Although, what's mind boggling is why you'd put yourself in that much risk as scum, because it really isn't a smart scum move, which makes me hesitate on voting you.

VOTE: Lohanoholic

Townread(+)
v
Scumread(-)

Mirhawk(+)
Ravenpaw(+)
Nachomamma8
Ms Mangaral
Naomi-Tan(-)
Lohanoholic(-)

Also ravenpaw, there is a destinct possibility of a Naomi-Tan/Lohanoholic team, and a Ms Mangaral/lohanoholic team doesn't seem to look really possible from my point of view, but I'm not ruling it out of course.

[RagnarokCometh]

EBWOP: Ms Mangaral, what are your reads

now

.

[RagnarokCometh]

Sigh, I'm undecided on Ms Mangaral as of right now, she isn't exactly scum telling, except in ways that could just be stupid town. Yes, she could flip scum.

Lohanoholic is more

likely

to flip scum.

Ms Mangaral is a ball of wifom for me right now.

Also, ms mangaral, you could use that argument, which is

exactly

why it would be stupid for me to do this as scum? Do you see my point yet?

The deadline is monday, is that the beginning of monday or the end of monday?

[RagnarokCometh]

Also note, ms mangaral has yet to vote Lohanoholic, when realistically it's her only bid for survival.

Ms Mangaral, on a side note, could you

please

vote lohanoholic? I pointed out where she contradicted herself.

Also Mirhawk, from a very twisted viewpoint when you're very confident of how things will turn out that specific thing that ms mangaral is actually possible from towns perspective, however, the town has to be very

very

confident in their reads to do it, which in of itself is a bad thing to have, Which means that the move specifically is even worse.

I still can't see scum motivation for it.

[RagnarokCometh]

Hmmm, it appears I

did

misread lohan.

@Lohan:

I thought you were referring to my original post where I pushed chkflip, rather than trying to use galadriel. *cough**cough*
Also, Ms Mangaral was being illiterate at the time, considering that she'd initially misread mirhawk's post, then she proceeded to misread it

again

after I pointed out exactly what she'd misread, I had to underline the appropriate lines for her to understand it.
Although I must say, voting me at this point in this situation is sticking to her reads, regardless of how baseless they are.

...Annndd I'm trying to get my head around why scum would vote

me

at this point.

Oh, and one other thing lohan, how does the person I replaced voting for the person who was eventually night killed mean anything? Even if my roleslot

was

scum, why would I kill the person that the person I replaced was tunneling? That doesn't really make any sense?

On another note, Lohan didn't slip like I thought she did, so I can stop tunneling her now.

P-Edit:

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Naomi-Tan

This, I can do, I'm hesitant to not scumread lohan, but a lynch on naomi is so much better than a lynch on Ms M.

Deadline is really doing a number on us.

[RagnarokCometh]

Actually, screw that.

1) Naomi-Tan could be a pr and is therefore not a viable target when we need to react quick.
2) I've been holding onto this for a little bit, but Ms Marangal said that she read everyone as 'town or null', yet she never said that she didn't scumread me at any point during the day, which is a slight contradiction.
3) Ms Marangal townreads Naomi-Tan, townreads Lohanoholic, and has Nachomamma as null leaning town, which is 1 too many townreads.
4) She originally voted mirhawk because she 'didn't townread' him and me unlike the other reads she had, and then she tried to use reasoning after 'I started making sense'.
5) She could flip town but I wouldn't feel ashamed of lynching her, I gave her plenty of chances and she's really turning this into a me/her cross. (Not saying that I actually expect her to flip town.)
6) I never townread marangal, which you could see from my list, I disliked the wifom point and therefore wanted to leave her alone for today.
7) The possibility assuming she's scum is that when she claimed cop it was because she read everyone as not cop, and therefore thought it was an easy way to leave her partner 3 way lylo. (This minorly insinuates that she expected her partner to win the three way lylo, but that's a wifom point and I think nacho is town right now.)

I'm out.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Ms Mangaral

[RagnarokCometh]

Quick clarification for Ms M, I said I never townread you for your claim, even though I was warding people off you, I wasn't talking about in general.

Another clarification, I didn't say that noami

was

pr, I said that in the event that she was she wouldn't be able to claim in the rush hour.

Although, I don't know why I'm justifying myself to someone who is already dead and likely scum as well.

P-Edit: I never read your meta; I couldn't be bothered making an account on the site.

@Nachomma: Why are you so certain she'll flip scum? I think there's at least a decent chance she'll flip town. My reads are up in the air with lohan/naomi not participating and you being frankly unreadable.

[RagnarokCometh]

Okay, Lohanoholic, will you

please

calm down.

I am of the opinion that you are

town

right now, and making a position that either you or me is scum is only omgusing me in the worst possible time to.

I was wrong about Ms Mangaral, I was wrong about chkflip. However in both scenario's I wasn't the only person that was wrong.

And

again

Lohan, I said that ms mangaral was making herself out like she was illiterate because she misread something

twice

. (Which you

just

misread yourself.)
gjsliejgliesjg;shges;liejf;eslhg;sjfe

I claim VT.

Also, Lohan is now screaming newb town that doesn't have a team-mate, Mirhawk, it's my personal opinion, and was as such prior to the night ending, that lohanoholic is town.

Nothing

she's done looks like it has even a remote plan behind it, and would therefore mean that she's randomly thrashing about as a town member.

Lohan, who did you jail night 1.

I now consider Nachomamma8 and Naomi-Tan as the scumteam, I am roughly 80% sure of this.

I sort of regret voting ms mangaral in a way, but in another way I think mirhawk might have voted them today had they lived. (And considering

I

was the counterwagon that wasn't going to happen, people don't listen to my reads far too often after I'm dead.)

I won't vote yet, considering it's lylo.

TL;DR:

Lohan isn't scum unless she is incredible at faking not reading things.

[RagnarokCometh]

EBWOP: Nevermind, you jailed Ms Mangaral N1, just reread it.

[RagnarokCometh]

The only thing that's slightly annoying me about my current reads is that I'm not being pushed on by either of the people I assume to be scum. If it's the case that I currently suspect and lohanoholic is actually town, Don't you think at least one of the other two would push on me, as she fairly obviously wants to get me lynched? (All they'd need was one vote on me for an extended period of time and they could both vote me for a win.)

However, the absence of a push on me could be explained as Naomi-Tan trying something similar on Lohanoholic.

On a side note, both reads are riddled with wifom and not worth putting too much thought into.

I don't think I necessarily have to jailkeep in advance.

Like, if I say "I will jailkeep Rag" and I'm wrong about him being scum, the remaining scum member would know it would be useless to try to kill Rag and would instead go after someone else.

but if we lynch scum today and you say you will jailkeep rag, and you are wrong about him being scum, scum will either A) not be able to kill, or B) be forced to kill mirhawk and confirm rag as town, which would be amazing

This however irks me, he's talking like Lohan could jailkeep and that I could be cleared as well, which would mean that both of us could be cleared. However, this would make Himself and Naomi-Tan mafia by confirmation. There is only one other mafia from a mafia's point of view, is this a Freudian slip?

I think if I had to vote any time soon it would likely be placed on nachomamma8.

Also, Lohanoholic, sorry if in any way I talk/push is even remotely irritating to you, I assure you that I wasn't even vaguely trying to annoy you.

[RagnarokCometh]

Well, with a quick ISO of lohan she's pretty much solidly softed JK the entire game, that and the fact that her claim and screwn up case on me/mirhawk was so incredibly blindingly towny that it hurt.

Nacho has done some pretty hard defends on naomi through out the game, even some to the point where I thought that a team of the two of them would be too obvious. (Which I pointed out earlier.)
Which, I'm beginning to think was the desired effect, considering I'm nearly positive that they are indeed the scum team at this point.

I'm going full out on this one.

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Now either scum automatically win, or it's confirmed that either me or nacho is mafia. (We'll soon see if mafia double vote quickly, I will be amazed if it's so.)

Lohanoholic, If you believe that it's me/nacho, that would make nacho scum, no? Regardless of whether I'm scum or not.

Mirhawk, Trust your instinct, and trust me on lohanoholic not being mafia.

[RagnarokCometh]

Lohan, you said you don't really see the possibility of nacho/naomi because they've both been power lurking, but the only other option is nacho/me or naomi/me from your point of view.
Need I point out how unlikely it would be for me/naomi to be a team because of how blatantly obvious it would be? Hmmm, another wifom point, I'm good at those.

And in me/nacho nacho is

still scum

.

Therefore regardless of how you look at it nacho is still scum.

On to a more relevant point, Lohan should jailkeep me tonight, this being so that it's entirely impossible for me to not be around tomorrow, of course assuming that lohan isn't scum that would kill me into confirmation that she's fake. But that would be a win anyway.

I am also leaning heavily on naomi being the partner, but I'm not positive yet. Normally it wouldn't be that hard to ISO a mafia to figure out their partner but Nacho is guarded in all aspects.

[RagnarokCometh]

Exactly my point, nacho is guarded. A lot of his moves have had benefit to naomi-tan; The bandwagon on Ms mangaral got several people including me off naomi-tan, His original sideways defence of naomi-tan d1 etc.

However, he's guarded in the aspect that he could be setting naomi-tan up. I think I already stated that I thought that the team would just be too obvious didn't I? It seems like it's much too easy a conclusion.

But I'm currently reading it as that because lohan just isn't reading as scum right now, not because it was the original almost too obvious to be true. If you remember mirhawk I removed that pairing down to possible, not impossible, and not obvious.

And why I meant it would normally be easy to ISO to find their team-mate was that I'm used to playing against players that are easier to read as to their team possibilities. (I'm probably going to have to stop using that method, it doesn't appear to have even been remotely efficient.)

And as to why I should be jailkept, is that that would allow me a 100% survival rate to tomorrow. Although I guess jailing naomi-tan gives me just as high survival rate. (As does jailing mir interestingly enough.)
It's not all that important who lohan jails so long as she says who she jails prior to the night, but I don't think I thought that far into it last post.

[RagnarokCometh]

EBWOP: Clarification, I'm only reading it as naomi/nacho because of my townread on lohan, I'm not paying much attention to my team reads any more.

(And I voted nacho over naomi because I personally scumread his comment about partners yesterday when ms mangaral was hammered, when ms mangaral wasn't confirmed scum, and flipped town. In my personal opinion it was a bid for a towntell, and it looks like I was correct. (Before you start saying I'm talking about team-mates in the same way, Nacho is currently confirmed mafia from my perspective, therefore I can start thinking as to his team possibilities.))

[RagnarokCometh]

My point was nacho that you were looking for the partners of a possible towny prior to the flip, which came across to me strongly as a forced towntell. and yes, everything towny that a scum does is a forced towntell, but I actually noticed said attempt for a towntell whereas I missed the others if there were any. I seem to remember you sitting as null on everyone's list.

[RagnarokCometh]

Nacho, why would you suggest a setup where you are scum? I'm certain we all know our own alignments and it strikes me as odd that you havn't like me ruled your self out as scum.

for the sake of others.

My point was nacho that you were looking for the partners of a possible towny prior to the flip, which came across to me strongly as a forced towntell. and yes, everything towny that a scum does is a forced towntell, but I actually noticed said attempt for a towntell whereas I missed the others if there were any. I seem to remember you sitting as null on everyone's list.

yes, but why is it a forced towntell?

Because you had no idea whether or not they'd flip town, yet you already made the assumption that they'd flip scum, which brings across the assumption in others that you thought they were scum when they weren't, which means that subconsciously they assume you didn't know mafia. Which is why it reads to me as a forced towntell, no reason to do it as town, and look, I was right.

[RagnarokCometh]

Mirhawk, don’t we automatically win basically?
If A) we kill the other mafia member, automatic win.
If B) we kill a townsperson, then during the night I’ll just jailkeep the Mafioso still alive, so they can’t do anything, then the next day we’ll kill him.

I think someone needs 3 votes on him, so if we go after the actual Mafioso, the townsperson should have no reason to not jump on the bandwagon and end the game.
If we go after the townsperson, the Mafioso could refuse to vote to delay the game annoyingly. In which case I think the townsperson can sacrifice himself to end the game more quickly. Since then we’d be in night and I’d jailkeep to prevent a kill, then we’d lynch the Mafioso.
If the townsperson tediously refuses to sacrifice himself, I suppose we could twiddle our thumbs for an extra month and do nothing, then the next day switch to trying to kill the other person. Or I guess not wait and switch earlier, hoping that the original person we tried to kill hops to the hammer vote.

So I would rather kill Rag today. But unless I'm making some mistake above, I REALLY don't think it makes a difference and there's not much gameplay left needed.

That's what I was writing in a post of mine that the site just ate.

You can lynch me if you

really

want to but by this point you should freaking know how everythings going to turn out. Did you even read me/naomi interactions?

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Last check:

@zoraster

If you jail mafia during the night do they get to kill?

P-EDIT: The first scenario isn't possible lohan, considering that you could have hammered nacho if you were actually scum, and neither is the second because mirhawk could have done the same thing. (As Nacho would be town in that scenario.)

This is pretty much gg.

[RagnarokCometh]

I'm still a little annoyed at myself for picking up on the mafia team as my secondary team d1 and not tunneling them d2.

Anyway gg, I shouldn't have voted ms m d2 and that nearly cost us the game, I can't really blame anyone else for things when I let my emotions get hold of me as well.

Sorry if anything I said to you came across as rude ms m, I was a bit.. annoyed, by the fact that you had my strongest scumread as your strongest townread.

And a final thanks to zoraster, for hosting such a great game and not subbing me out at the very end.