Newbie 1377: A New Matrix (Game Over)

[Bulbazak]

Finally...

Vote BBMolla

Now bed...

[Bulbazak]

Bulba you scum bro?

Every chance I get. Still fuming about what I did to you in 1333?

[Bulbazak]

@BBMolla: Nah. I played a good game. Sometimes town gut just wins out.

[Bulbazak]

So with all this said, may the odds be ever in your favor. ~~~~<3

What are the odds that you will be voting soon?

[Bulbazak]

@Bulbazak
If I were a betting man, which I am not, I would wager against me voting any time soon. But if I were to bet, I'd be a rich man.

Why aren't you going to vote anytime soon? Surely, with your previous Mafia experience, you understand how important RVS is.

Unvote

Vote Sondassasda

You say a lot, but there's no content.

[Bulbazak]

Perhaps things are different here, but in the games I have played, random voting caused the town to slip up more than the actual mafia. Hence, I've learned to stray away from randomly voting for people.

You're not locking in your final vote. RVS is just to give us something to work with so that we might start scumhunting sooner. Not voting, or doing anything for that matter, simply prolongs RVS and keeps town from properly scumhunting, thus giving scum the edge.

[Bulbazak]

Cute, BB.

Ok, so the current train of thought seems to be that both Sondassasda and Varsoon haven't even started to scum hunt yet. I don't think its enough to make them 100% suspects yet though. There's a lot of us that havent really contributed yet, myself included.

You've voted. At this stage in the game, that's contribution enough.

[Bulbazak]

Gonna go on a limb and say BB's town and wants to start the game with some vote-pressure on Sonda instead of being scum and putting a guy at L-3 during RVS.

Says the guy who is putting someone at L-2 during RVS.

Anyway, I'm town. You guys can either trust me or waste a lynch to find out that it's the truth. Honestly, that's up to you, but I'll do everything I can to defend myself as town.

Translation: "Hey guys, I'm town. I'm so town. Look how town I'm being. Did I mention that I am town?"

Let's see what putting another vote on Sonda does.

That's a weak reason to put someone at L-2 at this stage in the game. Do you think that Sondassa is scum?

Unvote

Vote Varsoon

[Bulbazak]

Are you sheeping me Molla?

[Bulbazak]

No, we just both have awesome reads.

You're probably town though so sheeping you isn't all that bad of an idea regardless.

You can at least understand why it makes me nervous.

[Bulbazak]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand, the RVS is just a mechanism to keep the game active. More activity means more posts to use for scum hunting, and a better chance at a town victory.

RVS provides the town with a way to launch into scumhunting by giving us content that we can examine. However, I take it that you're a RQS guy, which does the same thing.

Every chance I get. Still fuming about what I did to you in 1333?

You and BBmolla seem to have a slight rivalry. Would either of you mind providing a brief summary of what happened in game 1333? I've looked through the game, but I really do not have the time to read 35 pages right now.

I wouldn't say rivalry. This is just the first Newbie game we have been in together since 1333. I replaced into the game as scum and tunneled on Molla so hard that he was literally raging in the thread, thus painting him as scummy. Unfortunately, my partner was scanned by the cop n1 and lynched the following day. Molla was cleared by the cop d3 (I was trying to find the second possible power role during the night, since I felt that they would protect the cop.). Finally, I NK the cop, leaving Molla, myself, and another player (who had lurked) in Lylo. Molla fake claimed Jailkeeper. I saw right through it and asked who, leaving myself and the other player to make cases against each other. I made a good case, but Molla just couldn't bring himself to vote for the other player. I was lynched, and town won the game. I was universally praised for my scum play in the postgame.

Anything you want to add BB?

[Bulbazak]

@Mujie: 1333 wouldn't tell you much about my thoughts on RVS, since I replaced into the game in the middle of d1. I'd recommend looking at some of my other games.

[Bulbazak]

So why point them out

I meant I don't think me pointing it out is particularly scummy.

But since we're on the subject...I think town should point out anything that they think is strange if no one else has really mentioned it even if they don't necessarily think it proves the person is scum. At worst it creates conversation that might result in something useful. Do you not agree?

However, scum might also point out anything that is strange in an attempt to paint it as scummy and get a mislynch. So how is pointing out things you don't think is scummy helpful to town? It seems as if you're backtracking here.

[Bulbazak]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm getting slightly mixed messages from you, Bulbazak. You've said that you wanted people to examine the content from the RVS/RQS, and isn't that what Amckenzie was doing. Yet, somehow, that makes him scummy in your eyes. What makes what Amckenzie said scummy, instead of scum hunting?

It's the "I didn't necessarily think it was scummy." reasoning of Amc's posts. The point of scumhunting is to find scum. If you didn't think something was scummy, there's not much reason to mention it, let alone vote someone for it.

So, I've looked through BB's and Bulba's threads, and their attitudes are slightly difference

What do you mean by this, and how are they different?

[Bulbazak]

@Amc: Sorry. I misread.

@Mujie: Which game are you referring to?

[Bulbazak]

1305. But I skimmed through the first few pages, so I'm probably seeing differences where there are similarities. You were a townie, so who knows I guess.

That was my first game on site. My play's evolved considerably since then.

1). It works because you are a mafia trying to find out who is the doctor or something.

Where do you get this? Because I see no basis for it in the quote, and it seems as if you're making stuff up.

[Bulbazak]

You say a lot, but there's no content.

Otherwise known as: How to write an English paper the night before, and yet somehow ace it.

But really, what do you want me to do? Pull accusations out of my ass?

Frettory, get your quotes fixed in the future, or I'll think you are purposely putting words in my mouth.

Questioning are usually useless (What is your favourite role?) (What is your favorite alignment?) (What is your favourite food?) and, if useful, are more useful for mafia finding the doctor than town finding the mafia.

How are they more useful for Mafia finding PRs? RQS is actually an accepted method of starting the game, and like RVS, is used to bolster activity and get initial reads. If used correctly, it can give you a headstart on finding scum. Personally, I'm an RVS guy, only because I can't use RQS effectively (nor do I care to), but I understand that some people do, and I'm not going to begrudge them of that.

"Talking let's scum find power roles, so nobody should talk."
^Is that what you're proposing Fret?

If you mean "Questioning about favourite role/alignment/food is for scum trying to find town power roles, so nobody should question about favourite role/alignment/food", then yes.

That is incredibly stupid. Obviously, if the questions seem geared to finding PRs (i.e. they're not the random part of RQS), then of course something will be said. Normal questions have to do with Mafia experience, age, etc. I used random questions in one game to make a point, and those questions were geared to finding out the experience level of those playing. Also, what does favorite food have to do with finding PRs?

[Bulbazak]

Why ask about mafia experience in a newbie game? They *almost never* played on the site before! Well, except for the IC, and maybe the SEs.

It's true that not many of the players in Newbie games have played on MafiaScum before, but some might have Mafia experience outside of the site. This question can allow the SEs and the IC to determine whether they have a completely green group or just a group that is rough around the edges. This can completely change the dynamic of the game.

Personally, I think we should say why each of us shouldn't be lynched, and work our way up from there. What does everyone else think? Less arguing, more (game-specific) scum hunting?

Absolutely not. The last thing we need to do is fill this thread with WIFOM.

Also, I have a decent town read on Fret.

[Bulbazak]

David, I look forward to your insights.

[Bulbazak]

Molla, why do you believe Varsoon is town?

[Bulbazak]

So why point them out

I meant I don't think me pointing it out is particularly scummy.

But since we're on the subject...I think town should point out anything that they think is strange if no one else has really mentioned it even if they don't necessarily think it proves the person is scum. At worst it creates conversation that might result in something useful. Do you not agree?

However, scum might also point out anything that is strange in an attempt to paint it as scummy and get a mislynch. So how is pointing out things you don't think is scummy helpful to town? It seems as if you're backtracking here.

I disagree with your point here, in the first sentence. By this logic, at least how I understand it, you are saying that we should not point out things we find strange in the past because doing so is backtracking. However, as I mentioned earlier, written word is all we have to go by when playing via a forum topic, and often times it is necessary to go back over what has been done early parts of a Day or even in previous Days to actually see the whole picture surrounding a given event. Something might seem normal while it's happening but in hindsight reeks of scumminess. I'm not saying that this particular instance fits that description, but I'm saying that backtracking is not always anti-town.

Maybe I used the wrong word. How about backpedaling? It looked like Amc called something BB did scummy, and then when asked about it, said that it was "not particularly scummy." I thought this was weird, and it looked like backpedaling to me. I later found out that I had misread part of the conversation, so I withdrew the point.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, this dude reads like scum-you, I just kind of want to punch him in the face for terrible reasoning.

Why? Because he has the audacity to question you? To be honest, your actions have made me wary as well, but I don't think that you're the scummiest player in the game. Also, I'm still trying to get a sense of what town you looks like.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba: Okay then ask me shit, don't just stand there wondering if I'm town.

I did. I asked you about the Varsoon read. You really haven't said or done anything so far that makes me lean one way or another, and I'm really not too worried about it right now. You're a read I can sort out later in the day.

Now that I think about it, I would like to hear something game related from Sondassa. I can't recall him saying anything of substance yet...

P-edit: Actually, I'd have to say the opposite regarding Varsoon's posts. They read as very carefully constructed, and I don't get a real feel of genuine thought or emotion from them. In fact, they feel rather mechanical, as if he's distanced himself from what he's actually saying. I don't like that his first vote was to put someone at L-2, after criticizing someone for putting someone at L-3. And then there's his willingness to jump into WIFOM and overstate his townieness. If someone walks into a game and immediately states "I'm town", I'm going to immediately be suspicious, as I've seen scum overemphasize that before.

[Bulbazak]

I don't have enough at this point to start speculating about scumteams. These are just preliminary reads. We'll see what happens as the game progresses. Suffice it to say, Varsoon really hasn't impressed me so far.

P-edit: Varsoon, WIFOM is not the way to convince me that you're town.

[Bulbazak]

BB, I'm seeing more than you think I am.

[Bulbazak]

Also nobody reads wallposts

I do! But then again, I'm a freak like that, what with wanting to read the entire game and all. BB, are you saying that you tend to be angry as town? Because my attack on you during 1333 can't have been the only time something like that has happened.

[Bulbazak]

@BBMolla: I never said that Amc was town. I just don't think he's the scummiest player in the game.

Varsoon saying "I'm town" is like textbook WIFOM dood.

Meta me.

No.

@David: Most of my reads are still in the null area. Some, like Amc and Sondassa, are leaning scum. Others, like yourself, are leaning town. I have a town read on Fret and a scum read on Varsoon. BB is one of those reads that I put to the side and figure out what to do with later in the day, as I'm not able to develop a read on him this early. In fact, it is still too early in the game for me to develop any real reads. I'll feel more solid later in the day.

Also, Safely is a lurker. Lurking = Scum.

Not necessarily. While it is true that scum like to lurk, not all lurkers are scum. In fact, lurking is mostly a null tell, as I've seen town do it a lot too. I'm actually more suspicious of those who specifically go after lurkers, as lurkers make easy mislynch targets for scum.

[Bulbazak]

Sorry I haven't been on for some 2 pages. I'm in UK time so the last to pages were in the middle of the night for me. And I've been feeling sick most of today.

Hi King David. It's cool how you've brought out so much activity in the thread. It feels like we've moved on from page 5. You seem town mainly because of that I think. Mafia would try to get less activity out of people maybe? But then it could easily be a ruse so that you can convince us to lynch who you want, but you do seem like you would do the same if you we're maf. Because if you're maf you'd have the whole town under your fingertips and no one would even know.

Now I need to go to sleep. I feel better now, so I'll try to be more active tomorrow than I was today.

That's a lot of words for absolutely nothing.

[Bulbazak]

Also, I don't think that Frettory, Mujie, Varsoon and Sondassasda have said much on any suspicious scummy activity. So I'd like to know what they think is the scummiest thing a player has said/done so far. You get extra points if you come up with something no one has mentioned yet.

This looks like you're just trying to stir the pot without getting your own hands dirty. How about you do some actual scumhunting of your own.

[Bulbazak]

Not necessarily. While it is true that scum like to lurk, not all lurkers are scum. In fact, lurking is mostly a null tell, as I've seen town do it a lot too. I'm actually more suspicious of those who specifically go after lurkers, as lurkers make easy mislynch targets for scum.

That just gives lurkers an excuse to lurk, because anyone calling them out is "scummy".

There's a difference between pressuring lurkers to post and straight up calling them scum BECAUSE they are lurking. Actual scum tend to take the second option.

You see? Safety is a SCUM. Why else would he be trying to trick us into thinking that he is but a helpless newbie, when, in face, he is a SE?

First, that is Burden of Proficiency, which is a major pet peeve of mine. Just because he is an SE doesn't mean he is incapable of playing a certain way. It just means that he has completed at least 2 games on the site. Second, Safety has hardly posted anything. It is a major misrep on your part to portray him as acting a certain way or trying to trick the player base when he hasn't even started playing the game yet. This feels very opportunistic on your part.

However, Safety is a safer lynch.

Are you looking for a safe lynch or a lynch on scum? Of course Safety is a safe lynch. Nobody will be able to question why you voted for a lurker, and you'll be able to get away scott free. You know who benefits from safe lynches? Scum.

The scummiest thing a player (imkingdavid) did is post a mostly unenlightening (useless, but could be used to gear people in a certain direction) but woefully long post.

Post length has nothing to do with scumminess. For example, I tend to post walls regardless of alignment. You're essentially taking a null tell and pushing it as majorly scummy.

-snip-

1). Like you?

2). This paragraph is pure shit. Not bullshit, but just plain old lurker shit.

3). The happy medium is enough.

4, 5 and 6). See 2).

Was there a 7? Did I missed it?

If you are going to respond to something, don't cut it out where we can't see it. Actually quote what you're responding to above where you actually respond to it. Your current method is confusing and does not tell us what exactly you're responding to. Don't use numbers to respond unless you're making multiple points connected to the same response, or you are responding to someone else's numbered points.

Just to let you know, the reason why I flipped my opinion on imkingdavid is because I reread his posts. Like, actually read, instead of skim.

Or you read what Sondassa wrote and said, "I know! I'll just sheep him!" Because that read is completely lacking in originality.

Unvote

Vote Frettory

I was wrong originally. Frettory is scum.

[Bulbazak]

-snip-

Summary: You reek of scum. If you have nothing to say, don't say it.

I do not like this outright dismissal of a post, without actually addressing the post. This feels very much like scum trying hard to discredit potentially powerful town.

1). Psst psst. Safety just posted ONE post saying that he will read the page last night. He did not reply to it. I think you know that he probably don't care about the game, and/or he is scum. Most likely both.

You are conveniently forgetting the possibility that he just might not have the time or ability to put in the game that he wants to. Something could have very well come up. I know, I've been there. It does not mean that he doesn't care about the game. In fact, his only post, which is a prod dodge, seems to suggest the opposite, since he cared enough to try to stay in the game. We also have zero information regarding his alignment, so immediately calling him scum simply because he can't devote the time he'd like to the game is ridiculous at best and scummy at the very worst. If he can't play, he will simply be replaced, which will then give us somebody that we actually can examine in terms of alignment. Until then, any speculation is completely useless, and, in my opinion, scummy.

2). Both. Safe lynch because, well, if he is scum, good. If he is town, well, he might as well be scum.

It is way too early to even be considering policy lynches. As I said, we don't have enough information regarding his slot to make an informed decision. Therefore, your push on the slot is not actual scumhunting, but a lazy attempt to appear to be scumhunting.

3). I am not talking about post length. I am talking about information per sentence. Imkingdavid's reply is like:

So I vote for X, then suspect Y.

"So you vote for X, and suspect Y. O...k?"

for EIGHT QUOTES. How is this informative? I ask you this. It is pretty obvious, isn't it? Or perhaps he thinks us dumb ******* who cannot comprehend even the most obvious things.

That's a gross misrepresentation of his posts, and you know it.

4). The reason why I am cutting it out is to make a point that his whole post is just garbage. It isn't a wall of information. It is a wall of garbage.

This is what I mean by absolute dismissal. You don't consider anything he said, you just immediately call it garbage and cut out the information so that nobody else can make their own decision. What exactly in his post do you find to be garbage and why? Be specific and quote examples.

5). No. I read imkingdavid's reply that I missed out a very, very, crucial post that completely flipped my opinion.

What was it exactly that changed your mind? Quote it.

[Bulbazak]

No time or devotion? Why isn't he replaced? Why did he join this in the first place?

As far as him being replaced, that's the mod's call, not mine. As for why he joined in the first place, he probably thought he could devote the time to play this game. Life happens. I'm not going to condemn someone because of it.

The rest of your posts are horribly generic. When I said "Give specific examples.", I didn't mean "Well, you saw what he posted.". I want you to tell me why what he posted is "complete garbage" or is "worthless", and I want you to show me exactly what you're talking about. Personally, I don't see much wrong with his posts. Sure, they are sometimes convoluted, but that's not necessarily scummy, as it's very easy to fall into when you're trying to make a point. If you want me to see why he's supposed to be scummy, you're going to have to prove it to me, not just say, "You'll have to take my word for it.".

[Bulbazak]

It seems that my humble opinion on this game and its participants is requested. Although I haven't posted my suspicions on anyone in this game yet, that does not mean I haven't made any. I just happen to be holding all of them close to home. But I feel that the game has progressed far enough to where my hunches have a little more credibility than earlier.

Please don't keep your suspicions to yourself. This entire game has had an incredible lack of relevant content worth analyzing, so every single little bit helps. I know later in your post you get on to me for over-analyzing things, but I feel like if the game were to continue as it had, very little scum hunting would be occuring. We have 8 days until we have to lynch someone, and at the current rate, it'll end up being a half-hearted lynch of a random player made out of necessity, rather than a well reasoned lynch of someone who actually reeks of scum.

1). Didn't THREE people said that this game lacks content worth analyzing already?

Which 3 people? Do you agree with them? I don't.

I would first start off with Xegarus, who is no longer in the game. Although the amount of posts he made were limited, they often contained little to no information. I understand that the fact he was V/LA will limit the amount of posts he has, as well as the time he had to write them, but they just seemed choppy. I find his play style to be a complete opposite of imkingdavid, who uses long, flourishing posts to get his points across.

Xeg made 3 posts. 1 was RVS, 1 was checking in during V/LA and promising a post, and 1 was a hurried vote on Fret. I don't know his exact reasoning on that vote so I cannot answer to that. If I can point out, however, he had not been significantly less active than some other participants in this game.

2). Okay, so if all you can do is count.....

He was addressing an accusation made by Sondassa in regards to the previous player of the slot. As such, it was a relevant point. Don't downplay the actual content. Someone might think you were trying for a mislynch.

Those two are opposite sides of the same coin, the same role. Yes, I know. Two different people, but both of their play styles fit in the stereotype of mafia scum. (But then again, who I am to judge about long posts?) Although, this may just be carry over from my initial suspicions on Xegarus. And I guess if I were in King David's position, I would not want to be held responsible for Xegarus' posts.

So it's scummy to write nothing, and it's scummy to write a lot. I wasn't aware there was a happy medium. Maybe one day I'll find it.

The whole "you post too much"/"you post too little" argument stinks of WIFOM.

3). Happy medium. Also, it does not stink of WIFOM.

You could always ask why he thinks it stinks of WIFOM, instead of immediately leaping to the conclusion that he's wrong. Motivation and reasoning mean everything. How does this prove that he's scum?

Also, fixed the quotes for you, since you seem to be incapable of doing it yourself.

See now?

Nope. Seemed rather reasonable to me. Are all your points like this, or do you actually have something that is legitimately scummy?

[Bulbazak]

Where, oh, where has BB gone? Oh where, oh where could he be?...

Seriously dude, there are some questions here for you. You can't just pop in, call a wagon bad, and then pop out again, and expect to ignore all the lovely conversation.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, while we wait for Varsoon's replacement and for BB to return to the game, I'd like to hear more from Mujie, Amc, and Safety. Everybody else has done a majority of the talking recently. I'm currently tired and all talked out, so I'd like to hear from the minority.

[Bulbazak]

Hmm... Wishy washy and backpedaling. Interesting...

[Bulbazak]

Ok, then. Let me try to explain this better. I do not believe scum would act scummy. I could be wrong, but I don't believe most of you are scum because you're willing to show everything you've got. Scum would be more held-back, but not in a not-talking kind of way. Townspeople will seem scummy, but I think that those who are between the two of seeming too scummy and too little scummy to be town would be most likely to be scum. Therefore, not the "speaking majority". That's between for me, safety, amckenzie and the new varsoon (pimhel). I don't have enough information for me to vote safety, pimhel hasn't posted yet, so I didn't vote him. So I voted amckenzie.

So the too scummy to be scum fallacy? Sometimes if it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, it's actually a duck. Frettory hasn't done anything to make me think otherwise.

[Bulbazak]

Town: 1.) Amurika Mafia (VT) 2.)Newbie 1349 (VT) 3.)Newbie 1337 (Jailkeeper)

Scum: 1.) Donner Party (SK) 2.) Newbie 1333 (Mafia Goon) 3.) Mini Generic Mafia (Do Lynchers count as scum?)

What's your case?

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba
I've checked and I re-track a bit. I was mainly suspicious due to you voting players, but not mentioning them much, besides the original reason. But you did that in your town games as well.
However, I do want you to state again why you think Frettory is scummy for voting a lurker.

It was more the way he did it. I would have been alright with him trying to pressure Safety to post more, but instead he pushes as if Safety's actual lack of activity is scummy, which it is not. Since you've read my meta, you know I'm a staunch opponent of the Lynch All Lurkers philosphy, since I believe it benefits mafia more than it does town. Lurkers make easy mislynch targets, and scum avoid all culpability in their lynch. Safety hadn't done anything that was alignment indicative, so it's unreasonable, and therefore scummy, to make the leap that Frettory did.

Bulba defending Safety for lurking is scummy too.

How so?

We can't just let someone lurk and ignore them, that's how scum lurkers win.

A False Dilemma and AtE. Come on BB, I know you can do better than that...

It is way too early to even be considering policy lynches. As I said, we don't have enough information regarding his slot to make an informed decision. Therefore, your push on the slot is not actual scumhunting, but a lazy attempt to appear to be scumhunting.

"too early to policy lynch"? What the hell are you talking about dude.

Frettory said that he was okay to lynch Safety, whether he was mafia or not, just because he had not posted. That is a policy lynch. Did you suddenly forget everything about mafia theory, Mister IC?

That's a gross misrepresentation of his posts, and you know it.

Irony.

So, you're saying you agree with Frettory's assessment of David's posts?

In what way?
Do you feel like Fret's behavior to this point has been pro-town or anti-town?

Town

How so?

I'd love to hear what makes him so obvious town then.

Clearly you wouldn't agree with me so I won't try.

So you're just going to dismiss people's arguments without supplying any of your own, thus hampering discussion? Did Voided decide to mess with us and reverse our alignments from the previous game or something, because this isn't town you at all.

Who's NS?

Nobody Special.

And since Voided hasn't gotten around to posting it, I am experiencing a bit of computer trouble. For the foreseeable future, I will only be able to play from the library, and only for 3 hrs. a day (split between 3 games) and not on weekends. Do not be surprised if I don't get to you immediately, as I have to use what little time I have as efficiently as possible.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba
I've checked and I re-track a bit. I was mainly suspicious due to you voting players, but not mentioning them much, besides the original reason. But you did that in your town games as well.
However, I do want you to state again why you think Frettory is scummy for voting a lurker.

It was more the way he did it. I would have been alright with him trying to pressure Safety to post more, but instead he pushes as if Safety's actual lack of activity is scummy, which it is not. Since you've read my meta, you know I'm a staunch opponent of the Lynch All Lurkers philosphy, since I believe it benefits mafia more than it does town. Lurkers make easy mislynch targets, and scum avoid all culpability in their lynch. Safety hadn't done anything that was alignment indicative, so it's unreasonable, and therefore scummy, to make the leap that Frettory did.

Yes, I saw that. However, in one game you suspected a player for FoSing a lurker instead of voting that player. In your argument you mentioned that you'd be less suspicious had that player actually voted. And that's a difference with this game.

IIRC, that took place in RVS, and I tend to have problems with players that FoS rather than vote or ask questions during that phase of the game, since they are essentially avoiding scumhunting (a fos is extremely weak and is more for appearance than actually being practical). If they persisted with calling lurkers scum precisely

because

they were lurking, I would call them out on it. They don't often go all in like Frettory did, and again, I felt that the way he did so was scummy.

Also noticed the Amish tell from Thurhame.

@BB/Bulb:

Can you rank the players in the lower list from town-scum?

Safety Dance
Sondassada
BBMolla

[Bulbazak]

Also noticed the Amish tell from Thurhame.

Can I ask what Amish means?

BB's done a pretty decent job of explaining this already, but the Amished tell is when someone replaces into a slot and insults their predecessor without anyone asking them about it. Normally, this is them calling their predecessor scummy. However, it works in this case, because Thurhame called his predecessor a Village Idiot without being prompted to. I did something similar in Donner Party, where I called my predecessor, SuperDan, SuperDerp when responding to someone. Granted, I knew what I was doing when I committed that tell and downplayed it.

I still think that Thurhame is scum, especially since that he's been very big on IIoA, which gives the illusion of scumhunting while not actually doing so. However, I don't think that lynch is going to happen today.

Unvote

I'll vote before the end of my computer time. I just want to make sure that I'm good with wherever I'm permanently planting it.

[Bulbazak]

That's nice Thurhame, but who's scum?

[Bulbazak]

I'm good with a BB lynch.

Vote BBMolla

Thurhame tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak's Hierarchy of Reads (D2)

Town

Imkingdavid
Tamuz

Null

Mujie

Scum

Sondassasda
BBMolla
Debonair Danny DiPietro

I'm also interested in what Tamuz's program says about him. I'll go more into my thoughts about it after he answers the question.

Vote Debonair Danny DiPietro

All of his posts have pinged my scumdar. Still trying to figure out why, but gut says he's scum.

P-edit: So avoiding answering the question. Gotcha.

[Bulbazak]

You are avoiding submitting yourself to the same processes that you do everything else. Now maybe there's a reason why you are unable to do so, and if so, I'd like you to explain it to me like you would someone who does not have an advanced degree in computational linguistics. In fact, try to explain it to me like you would someone with a degree in English.

[Bulbazak]

Can you actually walk me through how you program designates between the 4 categories? Explain it to me simply, because I'm not sure I understand how you are coming up with your results.

[Bulbazak]

I think I got it enough to understand the basics. I still think you're in way over your head due to the human factor, and as such, this will never be a good substitute for good old fashioned scumhunting (plus it takes away from the fun.). Just a cautionary note: The last time I saw someone try to break down the game like this (it was in a game I was modding on another site), their breakdown caused the town to become extremely paranoid and devour itself. Mafia won with ease. As such, I'm not going to put much stock into this program.

Now that you explained yourself, I will attempt to explain myself better and try to show you what I see when I look at posts. We will tackle DDD's, since you seemed to take issue with my read. Post incoming.

[Bulbazak]

@ Mod: please update first post with players who have replaced in.

Find myself strongly in agreement with Pimhel's replace into the game's post.

Don't think Thurmane really violated the spirit of the Amished tell and thus considering it null.

Molla, whoever replaced Varsoon, Pimhel, and kingdavid are all town.

Intent to hammer Klick.

There doesn't seem to be much effort put into this post. Mostly, "I agree" or "I disagree" but no reasons why or why not. Calls 3 slots town and then intends to hammer the most popular wagon. Again, no reason why. This post just feels fake.

Hey, turns out we don't need that extra time after all.

VOTE: Klick

Going off of the last post. With no reason given why he finds Klick scummy, this is just blatant opportunism. It is curious that he avoided the BB wagon, though. DDD, why is BB town?

I'm not sure I like this whole computer program idea. First of all, it doesn't work (you have me at second place if you're going by the MS column). I also don't like that you're voting based purely (as far as I can tell) on the results of your program and not based on your own scum hunting (despite saying "I would also lean against relying strongly on these metrics, so far").

Personally I love it and it would still work even if it's "wrong" the question is really how much does an increase in scummy posts correlate with the odds of being scum and how much variance there is within that correlation. Unfortunately he's working off brutally small samples and I don't mean his dataset for comparison, I mean sondassasda had two posts flagged as scummy of his fifteen while SD and I had one of our eleven flagged. If we had a second one flagged we would rocket to a clear number one and if sond had one less flagged they would drop from first to sixth most scummy. So it might be somewhat accurate for someone like molla with a ton of posts but without being able to compare to other players I'm not giving it much value right now.

I don't like how quick he is to side with Tamuz's program. It's just "I love it! This is great!" It sounds like an excuse to actually avoid scumhunting. If something goes wrong, he can always blame the program and keep his own hands clean. Like his previous posts, there doesn't seem to actually be any scumhunting effort here at all.

@Tamuz: Do you have any actual thoughts on the players at all, or are you just going to stick with the computer?

@BBMolla: Where's your vote?

[Bulbazak]

There doesn't seem to be much effort put into this post. Mostly, "I agree" or "I disagree" but no reasons why or why not. Calls 3 slots town and then intends to hammer the most popular wagon. Again, no reason why. This post just feels fake.

Molla was an equally popular wagon, we were less than one day away from deadline, maybe two if the mod had granted an extension; I wasn't going to be able to hotshot another wagon so of course I was going to pick between the popular wagons because a no lynch wasn't acceptable so that's a nonpoint. And no, I didn't put on a big production about my thoughts because A) it's tedious and B) it doesn't help me. Now I know you'll say it would help you and others read me, but I trust my ability to talk my way out of danger so I tend to play a bit fast and loose with what I "should" do.

Actually, sharing your thoughts would not only help get a read on you (as you said and tried to rebut), but it would also help the town in the general search for scum. Keeping your thoughts to yourself, because doing otherwise "doesn't help me" is an anti-town notion and more in line with scum.

Activity is a prime mover for me, Molla was active, amckenzie was not. Molla didn't say anything that pinged my scumdar that strongly and amckenzie's words generally seemed forced and way too consistenly on Molla which is an often scummy consistency I find.

Okay, you found Amc's lack of activity and overall posts scummy. However, he replaced out, and Klick was very active, and, I thought, came across very strongly as town. Was there a reason why you found him scummy, or did you just ignore his posts and focus on his predecessor, even though Klick was actively trying to help town and find scum?

I don't like how quick he is to side with Tamuz's program. It's just "I love it! This is great!" It sounds like an excuse to actually avoid scumhunting. If something goes wrong, he can always blame the program and keep his own hands clean. Like his previous posts, there doesn't seem to actually be any scumhunting effort here at all.

I love it because I've attempted to do a very similar thing in the past not with machine learning but with posting and voting rates and such to model the behavior of scum. Nice conspiracy theory though.

I noticed that you didn't answer my primary concern, which is that you siding with Tamuz's program gives you an out should anything ever go wrong. It's simple distancing. I also don't like how you try to discredit me by calling my observations a "conspiracy theory".

I know you are not happy with my reasoning because you're scared of putting faith in unknown technology

I'm not afraid of unknown technology. I just find it to be lazy, dangerous, and stupid.

The last time I saw someone try to break down the game like this (it was in a game I was modding on another site), their breakdown caused the town to become extremely paranoid and devour itself. Mafia won with ease. As such, I'm not going to put much stock into this program.

lol. It failed once for someone else, lets never try again.

I don't think it's asking too much to show a degree of caution when it comes to trying to break the setup via computers or statistics. Those who do so rarely factor in the complexity of the overall system and all the variables involved. Therefore, I don't think that it is unreasonable not to put my complete faith in a computer.

Stop being a luddite.

I'm not advocating the destruction of new technology or urging it not to be used. All I'm saying is that complete reliance on it is not only lazy, but also dangerous, as you are surrendering the ability to think for yourself over to a machine. I also do not like how you discredit my thoughts and opinions, because I will not put as much blind trust in a machine as you do.

@Tamuz: Do you have any actual thoughts on the players at all, or are you just going to stick with the computer?

Aye, I have thoughts. I have feelings on people just like you.

Is this actually game related, or is this more whining and moaning and throwing of insults, since I don't put much stock in your program?

It is more accurate than I am

That cannot be said for sure, since you have yet to actually test it.

If I hadn't told you I used a program and said "ikd seems scummy, I can't put my finger on it, but he is" which Bulz has been doing all today.

Are you actually paying attention to my posts? Because I went back and broke down DDD's posts in an effort to show you what I normally notice on a subconscious level.

Its the same thing, one based on stats and a machine one based on the black box that is our brain (which is a machine and works statistically, lol).

Your's might. Mine doesn't. It works creatively as I try to understand people and why they did what they did or what their motivation was.

Also, how closely have you been reading the game? Can you remind me who hammered Thurhame?

Also, where is everybody, what is their reads on the game, and can we have a discussion that is not related to Tamuz's program. It's having the same effect on me that giant walls normally have on a vast majority of the town.

[Bulbazak]

I noticed that you didn't answer my primary concern, which is that you siding with Tamuz's program gives you an out should anything ever go wrong.

Well since you, ikd, me and everyone else in this game have noted that it won't be acceptable to excuse actions just because they were tool-informed we can stop beating this horse until someone actually does that, right?

Let DDD fight his own battles. It ruins my results.

That cannot be said for sure, since you have yet to actually test it

It can't be said that its better at finding scum. It's better at identifying posts made by scum, however.

How is it better at identifying posts made by scum, and how does that mean that it's not better at finding scum?

And appeasing the town is actually the scum mantra, doing whatever I want is the town mantra, backwards sounding I know but truth.

Except in this case, "doing whatever I want" is being unhelpful to the town, which is what a town player wants to do. Scum can do whatever they want as well, only in their case, it is aimed at being destructive towards the town. You can still do what you want and work towards the betterment of the town, however, that is not what you are doing.

Okay, you found Amc's lack of activity and overall posts scummy. However, he replaced out, and Klick was very active, and, I thought, came across very strongly as town. Was there a reason why you found him scummy, or did you just ignore his posts and focus on his predecessor, even though Klick was actively trying to help town and find scum?

You thought he came across strongly town, well I'm not you and I didn't and I don't simply wave away what someone previously did in a slot just because of a replacement.

What about Klick did you find scummy?

I noticed that you didn't answer my primary concern, which is that you siding with Tamuz's program gives you an out should anything ever go wrong. It's simple distancing. I also don't like how you try to discredit me by calling my observations a "conspiracy theory".

I called it a conspiracy theory because that's what it is. You suggested that I would simply blame the computer if anything went wrong; when I didn't even make a move to push the computer and voted for the player I think is scum not whoever the computer thought most likely. Hence you're suggesting there's some sinister plot afoot that is completely nonsensical.

No, I simply pointed out possible scum motivation. It is you who are suggesting it's a conspiracy theory, saying that I'm suggesting that "there's some sinister plot afoot", which I'm not. Your phrasing would suggest a connection between you and Tamuz if such a thing existed. Is that something I should be considering?

Name	ST	MT	MS	SS	Posts
kwll	65.671641791	26.8656716418	4.4776119403	2.98507462687	67
rosen	90.9090909091	9.09090909091	0.0	0.0	22
FSnake	71.1111111111	17.7777777778	6.66666666667	4.44444444444	45
nobody special	84.8484848485	6.06060606061	6.06060606061	3.0303030303	33
especiallythelies	67.6923076923	19.4871794872	8.20512820513	4.61538461538	195
orestes slapsticks	84.2105263158	13.1578947368	0.0	2.63157894737	38
bbmolla	77.2413793103	17.9310344828	4.8275862069	0.0	145
bulbazak	82.9787234043	8.51063829787	2.12765957447	6.3829787234	47
maestro	77.5	14.5	6.0	2.0	200

Name	ST	MT	MS	SS	Posts
kwll	80.5970149254	19.4029850746	0.0	0.0	67
rosen	50.0	31.8181818182	13.6363636364	4.54545454545	22
FSnake	60.0	37.7777777778	2.22222222222	0.0	45
nobodyspecial	90.9090909091	9.09090909091	0.0	0.0	33
especiallythelies	81.5384615385	16.9230769231	1.53846153846	0.0	195
orestes slapsticks	92.1052631579	7.89473684211	0.0	0.0	38
bbmolla	88.9655172414	11.0344827586	0.0	0.0	145
bulbazak	40.4255319149	40.4255319149	10.6382978723	8.51063829787	47
maestro	64.5	29.5	3.0	3.0	200

Tamuz, what happened between these 2 posts that made the numbers for an already completed game to flip completely? I noticed that scummy players became town and towny players became scum almost overnight. It's almost as if someone is fixing their data.

1. What Klick did in his final post... He knew it would decide the hammering vote. He knew Danny would hammer him, so if he said Danny was one of his strong suspects, that makes it incredibly strong. Because he knew saying that would get him lynched. Which is part of the reason I asked Danny about that.

No, him claiming vanilla town is what got him lynched not his suspicion of me.

How is being a VT scummy?

[Bulbazak]

Let DDD fight his own battles. It ruins my results.

You and IKD have attacked me on this as well, it is my battle too.

Except my question had nothing to do with your program. I feel as if scum would use your program as an easy way to distance themselves from any lynch. As such, my question to DDD was less about your program and more about his actual stance. By answering for him, you weakened the results that I would have gained from my question, essentially turning the whole thing null.

Tamuz, what happened between these 2 posts that made the numbers for an already completed game to flip completely? I noticed that scummy players became town and towny players became scum almost overnight. It's almost as if someone is fixing their data.

The data set went from 31 games to 100, there should be fewer outliers and the outliers that exist should be less potent.
Your insinuation is actually rather insulting. If I were trying this as a tactic to force votes rather than give the town more tools, which I have done my best to be clear about the tools' caveats why would I start doctoring mid-stream rather than presenting one view originally and stick with that gun.
If you would like, pick a newbie under 1263 or above 1372 that is finished and I can run models trained on 15, 31 and 100 so you can see small sample size changing the results drastically.

That's all I needed to hear. I suspected it was probably something like that, but I need to be sure. As for the offer, I might be interested, but why does it have to be Newbie games? I may give you a couple of completed games for you to run later, just so that I can get a better feel for you and your program.

Except in this case, "doing whatever I want" is being unhelpful to the town, which is what a town player wants to do. Scum can do whatever they want as well, only in their case, it is aimed at being destructive towards the town. You can still do what you want and work towards the betterment of the town, however, that is not what you are doing.

Yes, doing what I want which means I'm like one of three posters actually regularly posting, answering questions put to me, and pushing a wagon that I think is good; how horribly anti-town of me; guess I should start lurking like everyone else. There's some positive play right there.

That's not what I said, and you know it. Quite misrepping me and using said misreps to strawman me. Besides, scum can do what you said as well, which makes it a ton of WIFOM.

Case on Mujie isn't bad. He has been waffling quite a bit in this game. I believe I've caught him being wishy washy before. It might explain why I've had a hard time locking a read on him. Normally I'd just ISO him, but that's kinda hard to do with my limited access. I also didn't like the way he joined your wagon.

Then surely if I was scum, I would have gone after the much easier target of Frettory? If I had gone for Frettory, I would not have been questioned about my vote on him. Amckenzie may not have been scum, but neither was Frettory. As mafia, going after Frettory would be more strategically helpful. The day would have ended much much quicker most likely, and I couldn't have thought everyone would follow me surely. I wasn't the most prominent figure in town (I also wonder why it was Frettory/Turhame that was killed). There was a high chance voting Amckenzie would put suspicion on me, so why as scum would I do that? He wasn't an easy target, so why would I choose him over frettory?

This is not a defense. This is a lot of WIFOM.

But wow, that table says I don't have any scum points... Weird. Because I keep making mistakes in this, and it doesn't see me as even a bit scummy. The only other people who have 0% scum rating are Klick and Thurhame, who are both now proven to be town, and BBMolla... It's strange...

Using Tamuz's program as a defense, with a heap of WIFOM added for good measure. Yeah, because that will earn you townie points...

Unvote

Vote Mujie

[Bulbazak]

For now I'm not going to comment on the Mujie train other than to say I think it is wrong so Bulb doesn't tell me I'm ruining his baits anymore.

Why do you have a problem with the Mujie wagon? I don't have a problem with you saying why you think a wagon might be wrong. I just don't want you to answer other people's questions.

Hey Morning! Are you cautious because of Donner Party, because I'm cautious on you due to you getting in my head in a recent game? I'm interested in what you have to make of this game, because your slot has been making a point of giving me nothing to work with at all.

Also, I'd like to hear something from GiF or Mujie that doesn't sound like fluff.

[Bulbazak]

So it leaves ddd, bulba, Mujie, and David. Nice.

How wonderfully convenient for you that your choices consist of all the top wagons and Bulba.

That's only because he hasn't figured out a way to lynch me yet.

Annnd GiF is town. Scumteam is goodmorning and mujie. The more dangerous of the two is gm, so let's lynch her first.

VOTE: goodmorning

Sheep away, my pretties.

Given the limited time left in the day, this may not be the best vote.

Why is GM scum? Why is Mujie scum?
Why haven't I kept my promise of rereading yet?

In order: PoE, PoE, the devil.

Can you please expand on those PoE?

Does anyone disagree with my assessment of Beli as Scum? If so, why?

Seeing as how I only caught him as scum in 1305 due to his predecessor, I couldn't say one way or the other. I'd actually like to see more of him first.

Well, I'm fine with a mujie lynch, since the Driver method says he's scum, but I don't intend to vote for him except to hammer. It's more fun to go after gm, and even if you lynch me, mujie's for the high jump in 5p lylo. Just get gm for me in 3p and win.

Or

lynch gm today, and win tomorrow with a mujie lynch. It's guaranteed victory.

Given that I have stolen some scumhunting techniques from you (Shaheed's Law), this Driver method intrigues me. Please explain.

Such an idiotic opinion; "if I get lynched whatever do X and Y". Hey buddy, if you're dead then you're not here to remind them that X and Y are good ideas. And if you think the living players are going to go back and follow the directions of some random dead player just because he thought something was a good idea instead of following their own biases and instincts then you've got another thing coming.

I for one would at least consider his views should he flip town. Having recently watched half of a game from a dead QT, it is infuriating when town ignores your reads, particularly the very strong ones that you went out of your way to cement in their minds.

[Bulbazak]

20, 24, 27, 35: Over-emphasis of the V in RVS. Shouts down Sonda for disagreeing.

Yes, my opinion on the importance of voting has changed since our first game together. Although a simple bit of meta research could have told you that.

37: But then is uncomfortable when - wonder of wonders! - a wagon reaches L-2.

Nice misrep. I found Varsoon scummy and voted him, mainly because he criticized Mujie for putting himself at L-3 and then immediately proceeded to put someone else at L-2 (i.e. hypocrisy).

95: Begins to go after Frettory.

Asking someone about their intentions is not the same as calling them scum.

179: Begins to chainsaw the shit out of Frettory for the honor of ikd, and states, "I was wrong originally. Frettory is Scum."

Read again. My vote on Frettory had nothing to do with his attack of David, but rather his attacking of Safety for lurking.

187: The chainsawing hits a high.

Yes, because pushing him to give a better argument is so scummy.

If need be I could go on, but I believe the picture is clear.
Beli has replaced into a Scum slot, and his partner is not mujie, but Bulba.

I love how I'm automatically scum for being unwilling to give you the read you wanted on Beli. I think my gut may have been right about your slot.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba: Shall I consider my point missed then?

You had a point? I thought you were just trying to misrep me.

[Bulbazak]

I'd like to note that posturiffic Beli is Scumtastic, and that I expected better from Bulba than the way he completely misinterpreted everything I said.

How did I misinterpret you misrepping me?

Bulbazak was my weakest townread, and his inquiry regarding the Driver method might be buddying.

Actually, just personal curiosity. I like to add things to my scumhunting repertoire.

I would, however, like it if you and Morning would stop playing chicken with the lynch.

[Bulbazak]

There are six possible setups, 4 of which

don't

include the cop. Only up to 2 people in any game can know for sure that there's no cop.

(a) Just Jailkeeper
(b) Jailkeeper and BP
(c) BP and Tracker

(d) Just Tracker

You're seeming seems to suggest that you're cop. Giving a range of people and explaining that their explanation would out the cop. There are up to two people who can prove you wrong.

Your little gambit might have worked if you didn't make such a monumental mistake with (d), since Tracker cannot exist by itself. Since you did not know that, this means you are not a tracker, since the first thing you'd do is look up all the possible setups that were possible given your role. Therefore, you are either JK or BP. I only say this because it is absolutely imperative that you say which. Given the player list, I guarantee you that each and every player in this game is intelligent enough to figure this out, and as scum, they've probably already narrowed down your role. If you are JK, you are going to die tonight regardless, therefore you need to tell us who you jailkept so we can use that information later for PoE. If you are BP, you should claim as well, since you are essentially kill proof and you can use your conf. town status to help ensure a town victory.

@Belisarius: Given that there is no cop, you should probably tell us what you think you saw. The only exception is if you think that what you saw is not cop specific and is applicable to a possible tracker, in which case you should keep it to yourself.

Also, talk to me about GM.

[Bulbazak]

He said 4 setups and then named 4. I don't see that possibility.

[Bulbazak]

I will if he doesn't answer my questions. However, I still don't think he's the best lynch, as I still have a residual townread on his slot.

Also I forgot to

Unvote

[Bulbazak]

How so?

[Bulbazak]

Was that a meta read?

[Bulbazak]

@Belisarius: Given that there is no cop

Stipulation denied. Mujie can easily be lying, and his softclaim fails to take a stance -- he's trying to "CC" a copclaim I never made without opening himself up to being CC'd.

I guess the question is: Do you believe his claim?

[Bulbazak]

Vote Goodmorning

I still trust my David townread, and I don't see anything from Belisarius to make me doubt it. We can sort out Mujie tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

What the crap? I thought I had posted something a couple days ago and come back to find it not here! I'm going to be busy for a few hours, but I'll post something more substantial when I get back. Regardless of whether or not we no lynch, I'd still like to use this day to the fullest. More information and discussion can only be good for the town.

[Bulbazak]

What the crap? I thought I had posted something a couple days ago and come back to find it not here! I'm going to be busy for a few hours, but I'll post something more substantial when I get back. Regardless of whether or not we no lynch, I'd still like to use this day to the fullest. More information and discussion can only be good for the town.

Uh no, everything spilled before a no lynch just gives scum more information to plan a better kill from picking out PRs to using WIFOM even more effectively because people will spell out exactly where they're standing; the only counter for that is either not give them that information or to lie which makes things worse. Hence silence is the relative best option.

I disagree. Discussion is how town is able to discern the intent of the players and gather the information needed to recognize who is town and who is scum. Therefore, I find any attempt at squashing discussion scummy. I agree that if we can't decide on who's scum, that we should no lynch. However, that doesn't mean that we should waste a perfectly good game day that could otherwise be used to foster discussion and uncover scum.

[Bulbazak]

I'm not saying we should be forced to lynch, but I am saying that we should use this day to the fullest and use it to scumhunt. If we don't feel that we have isolated scum near the end, then we can just no lynch.

[Bulbazak]

I still have a couple of ISOs to go through, but I keep putting it off. Unfortunately, it's the 2 most difficult ones: DDD & Tamuz. I'm starting to come away with the clash between me and DDD might be playstyle differences, though.

@GiF: Do you still stand by your meta reads of Morning and Tamuz?

[Bulbazak]

TSO, start talking so I can make up my mind about your slot.

[Bulbazak]

Explain the Morning read. Because you're going to need more than meta now that we're in Lylo.

[Bulbazak]

TSO, how caught up are you?

[Bulbazak]

Thoughts?

[Bulbazak]

NC, see my #531 for my thoughts on Mujie's (and now your) gambit.

[Bulbazak]

NC, my point was that this gambit idea of Mujie's which you have taken on works on the assumption that no one can work anything out themselves. I'm sorry to say that with this kind of gambit, normally the less that is said, the better. Mujie, however, couldn't keep his big mouth shut. Chances are that scum already know. Heck, I already know, and I only had deductive reasoning to work from. At this point you are hurting town more than scum with your gambit.

[Bulbazak]

What? Are we shotgunning who we think is scum, especially after voting for a no lynch? Are you trying to give the scum team ideas?

[Bulbazak]

TSO, the only ISO I have left to finish is your slot's, and I'm leaving that for the night. I have a pretty good idea who scum is, but seeing as how we've decided to no lynch, I'm going to keep it to myself. I was waiting for GiF to get back with me with his answer about why he's relying on a meta read in Lylo, but it looks like he's decided to slink away for the rest of the day phase.

As for GM, I don't think she has a point in what she's posting. She's trying to make it appear like she's doing something significant while doing nothing at all.

[Bulbazak]

I still have a couple of ISOs to go through, but I keep putting it off. Unfortunately, it's the 2 most difficult ones: DDD & Tamuz. I'm starting to come away with the clash between me and DDD might be playstyle differences, though.

@GiF: Do you still stand by your meta reads of Morning and Tamuz?

Where's the DDD ISO?

I just said that I still needed to read through it. I've since done that. I always review everyone's ISOs in Mylo/Lylo. It serves as a way to double check my reads. I normally don't do an ISO breakdown (2 different processes). I'm willing to admit that our disagreements may be a simple matter of playstyle clash, especially since I have 2 strong scumreads, and neither of them are him.

[Bulbazak]

Well there goes the BP theory...

Vote GuyinFreezer

Not no lynching again, tyvm.

[Bulbazak]

I have no idea what Bulba is doing or why he's doing it.

I questioned GiF yesterday about his reads, particularly his meta read on GM, to see if they still stand. He said yes. I called bull crap on it and questioned him on it further, of which he never responded back. Ever. As I said before, we're in Mylo, which means we should be reconsidering all of our reads, especially the meta ones. But he doesn't. At all. I was suspicious of his predecessor, and going back through GiF's ISO, you can see that all he's done is surface analysis. He's trying to make it appear like he is participating while adding nothing of value. GiF is scum, most likely with GM.

I, too, am disinclined to no-lynch but then again I don't know that it seems like town-bulba would vote at this point.
Hmmmmmm

Town-Bulba would if he thought he found scum. Let me break this down: NC is town because of the PR claim. TSO is town after going through his slot's ISOs (That slot is so town on a reread that it's not funny.). After reading DDD's ISO, I'm inclined to think that my earlier read on him was due to playstyle clash. That leaves GiF and you. GiF and his predecessor actually contributed nothing of worth to the game. Your slot has been bothering me since d1. BB was acting completely different than in my previous Newbie with him. In this game, he was sheeping a lot, and he would randomly make accusations and never back them up. This is not the town-BB that I've played with. Then you replaced in and proceeded to get Belisarius lynched due to meta that was pointed out to be inaccurate. When I didn't want to jump on the Belisarius bandwagon, you proceeded to call me scum for contrived reasons. This does not feel like your town game. It just feels like a more aggressive scum game, including that classic "Hmmmmm" at the end of your last post. So if you don't mind, I'd appreciate it if you'd just stop with the manipulation and bus GiF.

@NC

: It's obvious at this point that you're either a JK or a Tracker. Now is the time to stop with this silly of game of yours and claim. You have 3 nights worth of results at this point that can help with PoE. Continuing with this charade any further is, frankly, anti-town.

P-Edit: Actually, I'd say that actually backs up my assertions. More votes on GiF-scum please.

[Bulbazak]

I've had a newbie game go to a draw because of it though it might be a game lost to a crash because I'm having trouble finding it. And that is way too long a cycle; after two or three it should be obvious what the intent is and scum should be forced to kill or concede the draw.

VOTE: No Lynch

You better be scum, because this is just anti-town.

Let's not forget that I am not a King.

I have no idea what this means.

Already claimed JK. My predecessor and I have been jailing GiF for the last two nights.

Why aren't you voting him?

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, why is doing what DDD is doing anti-town?

DDD is advocating that in Mylo the best strategy is to vote no lynch and end the day early, which not only squelches discussion, which is a scum tell, but is also a very mechanical understanding of game strategy. In fact, the best way to view Mylo is as a day phase to gather as much information as possible to correctly identify scum. If at the end of that day phase nobody feels certain that they've identified scum, then they can no lynch, only they now have more information that they can analyze going into Lylo. Yesterday, I advocated this strategy, but due to becoming overloaded in my personal life, I was not able to be as active as I'd like, and we essentially wasted an entire day phase. Now we are still in Mylo, but we have some crucial information that can help us correctly identify and lynch scum. However, DDD is still advocating No Lynch, not because he doesn't think we've found scum, but rather because he wants to try to stall the other team out. This is playing against a town wincon of finding and lynching scum, and is thus anti-town.

I think it's more likely that the scum have been trying to NK GiF for lurking than that he's scum.

Why do you think that scum would want to desperately kill GiF that he'd be targeted 2 nights in a row? It doesn't make sense, and I'll show you why with some basic night speculation:

So let's say that scum targeted GiF n1, and their kill didn't go through. That leaves 3 possibilities: GiF is a 1-shot BP, you are a JK, or there is a doc.

Let's start with the first possibility. Now scum would already know what you are, since they can refer to what they have and extrapolate. If they think that GiF is BP, there is no longer a reason to target GiF the proceeding night, since he's not that strong of a townie and can serve as a red herring. This means that they would not have targeted GiF n3 and tried to shoot someone else, probably you, since they know that you are not protected. Now there's another reason why GiF is not a BP, and that is because it is extremely unlikely that you would have blocked a kill 2 nights in a row if this is the case, as a roleblocker's actions take precedence of a Jailkeeper's in this setup. This means that if mafia had a roleblocker, you would have been blocked the past 2 nights, due to Mujie's quasi-claim. Therefore, GiF is not BP.

Let's put possibility 2 & 3 into one paragraph, because the logic is essentially the same. If scum targeted GiF because they thought he was another PR, after the kill not going through n2, they'd have no reason to target him again, as previously mentioned. Not only because of the reasons previously mentioned, but also because they know that he can't be a protective role, since he's the one being protected. Once again, if GiF was a BP, there would be no reason to target him again, and you would have been killed n3. If they thought you were a tracker, then they would know that GiF is not a doctor, and again, have no reason to target him again. The point is, if GiF was targeted as a PR, his kill not going through on n2 would have given scum all the information they needed regarding him, and as a result, he would not have been targeted n3. This means that if this was the case, someone else, most likely yourself, would have been the n3 target. The fact that a kill did not go through both nights, and that you JK GiF both nights, tells me that GiF is most likely scum.

Now we're at MyLo and the top vote is a policy lynch.

I'm voting GiF, because I think he is most likely to flip scum given all of the information we have. If I was trying to policy lynch somebody, my vote would be on DDD.

Also, who did you target n1?

P-edit: TSO, speaking from experience, scum would rather be in Lylo than Mylo. Unless they were trying to set someone up, not killing would be playing against their wincon, and it's more unlikely for scum to do that than town.

[Bulbazak]

In this game, he was sheeping a lot, and he would randomly make accusations and never back them up. This is not the town-BB that I've played with

First of all, this IS BB's town meta. (Check Epic Mafia micro for more details.)

I've played with BB twice, and he was town both times. In 1333, he was more active and proved to be a strong member of the town. In Voided's nightless mountainous game, he was not as active, but he still had his own thoughts and opinions, even being able to try to pull a gambit to not only get the town more active in finding scum, but to also form a town core. I've seen none of that in his play here. Even when BB was not as active, he wasn't completely useless.

When I didn't want to jump on the Belisarius bandwagon, you proceeded to call me scum for contrived reasons.

Quotes plz, because I don't remember seeing this. (And I read D2).

Does anyone disagree with my assessment of Beli as Scum? If so, why?

Let's put it this way, whichever of you and Beli puts their money where their mouth is and helps lynch mujie earns themselves the honor of being lynched second. Act now, offer only good until mujie is dead.

I am becoming more convinced of mujie as being better to put off lynching, for reasons I will explore below:

Does anyone disagree with my assessment of Beli as Scum? If so, why?

Seeing as how I only caught him as scum in 1305 due to his predecessor, I couldn't say one way or the other. I'd actually like to see more of him first.

This is all very well and good, but that slot already has plenty of posts to be looking at. I was going to ask what you thought of the slot since you didn't want to take a stance on Beli, but then I figured instead of being lazy I'd actually go and look. Here is what I found, both on that subject and from your slot in general:

20, 24, 27, 35: Over-emphasis of the V in RVS. Shouts down Sonda for disagreeing.
37: But then is uncomfortable when - wonder of wonders! - a wagon reaches L-2.
95: Begins to go after Frettory.
108: Decides Frettory is Town.
122: His very first interaction with the Xegarus/ikd slot.
129: The first hint of his coming hard defense of ikd.
160: Stated he is "leaning Town" on ikd.
179: Begins to chainsaw the shit out of Frettory for the honor of ikd, and states, "I was wrong originally. Frettory is Scum."
187: The chainsawing hits a high.
363: Having spoken directly to ikd or referencing his posts as more than "Frettory you idiot"-bait ONE TIME, calls ikd his strongest Townread.

If need be I could go on, but I believe the picture is clear.
Beli has replaced into a Scum slot, and his partner is not mujie, but Bulba.

[Bulbazak]

Vote GuyInFreezer

[Bulbazak]

^That was fast. Why didn't we do this two Days ago?

Because apparently it's better to no lynch in Mylo and keep scum (and town) from getting any useful information. At the very least, this should have happened yesterday.

[Bulbazak]

Scum self hammered. Where have you been?

[Bulbazak]

Sorry, I may have bitten off more than I can chew elsewhere on site. I cross-replaced into 2 games and have been spending my time trying to catch up. I've finished going back over the mylo/lylo exchanges, since I believe those days are key. I may have spotted some things, but I want to go back through the ISOs again with the flip in mind. I don't know how long that will take, though, since current events have left me completely exhausted. Part of me thinks I know who scum is, but I want to double check things first, simply because I keep flashing back to Jungle Republic, and I'd like to avoid making that mistake again if I can.

I do want to address one thing:

Bulba votes GIF because GIF is obv-scum given results.

Although you make a big show of having read the game again, this is a basic assumption that is actually false. I had voted for GIF BEFORE NC revealed his results. GIF had been sticking by a meta read of GM in mylo, even though he should have reconsidered such a read (I always reconsider my reads in mylo/lylo, just in case I have been wrong.). When I questioned him on it, he refused to answer me. I had gone through his ISO earlier, and I had noticed that all of his reads were surface, as was his analysis. His actions during the first day of mylo convinced me that he was scum, which is why I voted him immediately the next day.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, I think I've figured things out. There's just one more thing I need to check. In the meantime, GM what is your case on DDD?

[Bulbazak]

While I don't like that a lot of DDD's play has been focused on squelching discussion, I can't get over the series of terribad cases you have made this game. They remind me of the type of case Syryana made on me in Jungle Republic, where it was stretched to the point where I couldn't honestly believe he bought the case himself. Unfortunately, I ignored that at the end of the game, and it ended up costing me. I just can't believe that you'd make some of the cases you have in this game as town. The reason for Beli-scum was horrible, as was pointed out at the time, and the cases on me and DDD were stretched and full of misreps. Also, I trust Beli's read on you, given how strong it was, and the more I look at it, the more I'm willing to stake the game on it. Your slot has bothered me for a long time, and I thought your vote on GiF was opportunistic bussing, since my read of the situation led me to believe you were scumpartners. I've thought about it for awile, and I can't see any other choice.

Vote Goodmorning

DDD, if I'm wrong, that was a great game.

[Bulbazak]

Good for you. I called it right.

[Bulbazak]

It's not just that your cases were bad, it's that they were stretched, as if you felt obligated to make a scum case and just picked anything that might look scummy in a certain light. It's what I tend to do when cornered in a position as scum, and those cases don't feel as genuine as they do if you're town putting together a case.

Here's a handy overview:

#461 - Your claiming that you can read Beli due to meta, even though Beli pointed out that you had no basis whatsoever.
#482 - Where you made a case on me being Beli's scumpartner after I didn't side with you on the mislynch. I refuted it in #483, and showed how much of a stretch each of those points were, even though a little bit of research should have done that for you.
#734 - Your case against DDD, which I had to prod you to deliver. In the end, there was nothing of worth in there, and the whole thing was full of stretched points and misreps. Although DDD responded to it in #735, I could see for myself that the whole thing was crap as I couldn't see any of your points.

When it came to DDD, were you hoping that I'd make the case for you and you could coast to victory? Seriously, if you were town and thought he was scum at the beginning of the day, why didn't you make any sort of case against him? And now that he's revealed himself to be town (because if it's otherwise, not hammering you would be a stupid move), the only course of action left for you is to OMGUS. This is the exact same situation as Beli. I didn't agree with you, so you must accuse me of being scum to save face. This, btw, is why I couldn't see DDD as scum, especially since Syry pulled the same crap on me in Jungle Republic and I let it go and lost the game because of it. So yes, I didn't vote DDD like you expected, because I've learned that some arguments are plain scummy, and they trump playstyle differences in Lylo.

[Bulbazak]

Beli. Do me a favour. If you are indeed Scum, and it seems very likely that you are based on DDD's not quickhammering me, kindly fuck off. You've done your bit. You've presented a wonderful argument. I'm neither in the mood to counter you nor interested in wasting my breath trying to convince DDD of anything, because the likelihood that I could is so completely low it's foolish. You've done enough. Rest fucking easy.

Does the "no defense" defense actually work?

Actually, tell you what. Here's why I didn't post a case on him first thing today: I DON'T TEND TO FIND ACTIONS IN LYLO (other than lack of quickhammers) COMPELLING IN ANY WAY.

Ok, but you stated at the beginning of Lylo that you thought DDD was scum, which meant you thought he was scum for reasons OUTSIDE of Lylo. Therefore, that still does not explain why you avoided giving a case or pushing DDD whatsoever.

Also, from my point of view DDD being Town makes you autoScum. It's not OMGUS at all.

Why didn't you realize that?

I did:

And now that he's revealed himself to be town (because if it's otherwise, not hammering you would be a stupid move), the only course of action left for you is to OMGUS. This is the exact same situation as Beli.

I didn't agree with you, so you must accuse me of being scum to save face.

I find it interesting that you took a similar, but different, stance to the one BB took with me. BB buddied me for the longest time, which included sheeping my vote. He later turned on me when I questioned him. When you replaced in, you'd treat me as town as long as I'd agree with you, yet when I disagreed with you in regards of who you called scum, you'd automatically call me scum as well and put together a stretched case. It's like you are saying "Agree with me or else." and hoping that it would bring you the win.

1. There would be no reason for me to have killed TSO.

WIFOM

2. So fucking what if I'm bad at cases?

It's not that you're "bad at cases", it's that they were stretched and felt like they were put together simply because you felt obligated to throw a case together. Ergo, they're not genuine cases based off of genuine reads.

[Bulbazak]

Checkmate

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

It'd be nice to be on the same side again, a la Amurika Mafia.

[Bulbazak]

Actually, I lost that first scum game, but just barely. If you count SK as scum, my win:loss record for completed scum games is 2:3 I'm shooting for a Scummy.

[Bulbazak]

I meant 2:1. Where'd I get 3?

[Bulbazak]

Scum QT, before I forget.

Also, what is it with VTs Doc slipping? That was the only reason we killed Frettory's slot and why we aimed for DDD n3.

[Bulbazak]

Actually, I lost that first scum game, but just barely. If you count SK as scum, my win:loss record for completed scum games is 2:3 I'm shooting for a Scummy.

I thought you won you first newbie with me as mod?

Nope. BBMolla voted for me at the last minute during Lylo.

[Bulbazak]

Just this and 1333.

[Bulbazak]

Just out of interest, why did you kill me?

Because I thought that if I left you and GM alive, you'd both realize that it was too easy and vote me instead.