Newbie 1368 - Will there ever be a title? (GAME OVER)

[imkingdavid]

Hi guys, I'm in for Crandaja. Please give me a bit to catch up and post my thoughts.

[imkingdavid]

Well, I'm about halfway through reading page 5 and it's 3 am, and I can't think straight right now. I keep reading the same sentence three times and not processing what I'm actually reading. So I'm going to bed. I'll be sure to post my thoughts tomorrow when I'm more awake.

[imkingdavid]

Here are my thoughts after reading the game.
Well, this post isn’t as grand or as long as you might expect it to be after reading through 10 pages of posts. However, those 10 pages contained about 3 or 4 main topics discussed and will briefly go over each one now.

Note that I am keeping more extensive notes for myself, but in the interest of space, I am choosing to post only the most important items. I tend to be very thorough some times and would rather not fill the topic with unnecessarily lengthy posts (people in another game I’m in have complained about my posts being too long).

That being said, if you feel I missed something or didn’t understand something and would like me to go back over it, just let me know.

First, the yep vs yes discussion. I find this to be somewhat extraneous. I can see where each side is coming from, though I too equate “yep” with “yes”. All in all, I don’t get any scum vibes from anyone over this. I do notice that it is repeatedly brought back up, which is somewhat fishy. But still, I’ll let it go for now.

Next, the whole “darling” discussion. First, I feel that my predecessor clearly and adequately explained his vote. I’m not sure I necessarily agree with, as others pointed out, voting based on a word used 12 days before the vote, but I can assure you there is no scum motive behind it. I was, however, surprised to see that discussion about it took as long as it did and kept resurfacing so often. As with the other word discussion, the only thing slightly suspect I notice about it is how it keeps being brought up despite being explained.

Discussion then evolves into a debate on whether meta-analysis can be used as a valid scum hunting tactic. I think there are cases when meta can be used effectively, but there are also times when you should take it with a grain of salt because the person may be intentionally changing their meta to prevent meta-analysis. This discussion seems to fizzle out with no real change of opinion on either side that I can see.

Next comes the scum slip discussion, in which Syr points out two posts he thinks contain slips and asks other people to find them. I’m not a big fan of this tactic, to be honest. In a way it could be seen as pulling two random posts and saying that there are scum slips in each one and telling other people to find them for you. In my opinion, it would be significantly more productive to point out the slips and allow the slippers to defend themselves. To note, I don’t actually see the “slip” Candi pointed out as being a slip, and I have yet to find Grim’s supposed slip.

Here are some things I would like to point out specifically relating to scup slippage.

Syryana, you forgot to reply in your eagerness to dismiss my percieved scumslip from Candillan. Also, when it comes to scumslip, the one you pinted out from Candillan is dissappointingly weak. When I think of "scumslip" I think of something scum would say that would incriminate close to 100%. Like a reference to a QT for example. Not something that can be interpreted in any way, or which simply consitutes a choice of formulation. Scumslips are about meaning, not formulation.

Of course you think it's weak. He's your scumbuddy. And what did I forget to reply to?

I also found it a bit weak, as if you were specifically searching for something to jump on. Here are a couple of related points I would like to make:

In my first game on this site I was mafia and I greatly enjoyed blowing up one of the townies’ unfortunate word choice and making it look like he was scum so that we could lynch him. That being said, his ‘scum slip’ was more of a slip than I feel “I was town” is. When I read the post, I read it as simply a statement of fact, that he was town in the other game. I didn’t read it as being mutually exclusive to his role in this game, and I feel like to do so is a bit scummy.

Second, due to the first point, I am hesitant now to actually put any stock into a very minor, if that, scum “slip”. I feel like an actual scum slip would be something more tangible and more definite, rather than just being able to interpret words (that are otherwise innocuous) as a scum tell.

During the early stages of the game, I found myself agreeing with Syr, but following this whole ambiguous scum slip thing, I am finding him somewhat suspect.
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As a side note, I think it’s significantly easier to read responses when they are broken up into separate quotes rather than inserting your own comments into a quote with bold or with a different color. It gets especially confusing when there is already bolded text in the original quote. It is, IMO, more difficult to reply to.
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Final thoughts, this has been a game of Grim, Syr, and Candi, with a side of my predecessor, and Homer. The rest have posted very few and far between. If we could get some more activity out of the rest of the participants,

and by that I mean actual, constructive content

(not just sheeping other people and such), this game would be much more enjoyable and we would increase our chances of lynching scum. We have less than a week and the current level of activity bothers me to no end.
Finally, since I forgot to do this in my other post:
UNVOTE: Grim
VOTE: Syr
(for the scum slip bit, which I’m not too pleased with)

Oh, and I almost forgot. Regarding the whole scum pair thing. That is, regarding looking for pairs of people who could be scum. I disagree with doing this on Day 1. Or really, any time before we have a positive ID one of the scum. Otherwise, you can link two people together early on and then end up with either a mislynch or without lynching the other scum based on faulty assumptions used to link two people before actual information was provided. Does that make sense? I can clarify if I need to.

I know it took me a while longer than I’d have liked to get this posted, but I will be more active now. It always takes the longest to get that initial post up when replacing in. After that, I can go with current discussion instead of having to refer as much to the previous pages in the game.

I still have yet to look at each player up close (so far, all I’ve done is a straight read through chronologically). I plan to do so eventually before deadline, but if you have any specific questions for me, or (as I mentioned) if you feel I missed anything, do let me know.

[imkingdavid]

@mod

- Vote count please, last one was 4 pages ago (page 7).

[imkingdavid]

Okay.

Syr - The logic your post about Grim's scum slip is hard for me to follow. Somehow it feels very odd to me. Maybe I'm just being slow and not understanding you. So if you don't mind, let me summarize the situation here and see if I can make sense of it in light of what you're asserting.

In post #13, Crand random votes Raven for calling him darling. In #26, Grim states that he can't find such an occurrence, and proceeds to assume that Crand is making a scum slip by referencing something that he assumes is written in the scumchat quick topic, which only scumCrand and his supposed partner (scumRaven) would be able to access.

Grim states in #180 that he would not have called out Crand on this if he knew that Crand was using something from public communications (i.e. not the scum chat) because in that case Crand would eventually be able to provide the occurrence in a public communication between himself and Raven, which would only make Grim look scummy for trying to act like it was a scum slip.

In short, according to Grim: As scum, Grim would not call out Crand because he would know that the word was not in private communication and therefore Crand would be able to show where it was said; therefore, it would not make sense for scum to try this because he would know it would fail. (Yes, I know I just repeated myself; saying it multiple times with different words seems to help me understand it better.)

Syr's argument as I understand it, is that Grim did not know that his assumption (that Crand was referring to private communication) was wrong; therefore he called out Crand on it. Your wording:

I used the scumtell-approach because I didn't know it wasn't true.

I am rewriting as:

I used the scumtell-approach because I thought it was false.

Because that is less confusing to me (double negatives and all). Also I'm assuming that "it" above means "the word being in a public communication"

Okay, so... I think I understand the situation and the argument (correct me if I'm wrong). I just don't know how you go from your argument (see above) to your conclusion (Grim is scum). Because, to be honest, my logic tells me the exact opposite.

EBWOPreview:

Hypothesis: "I wouldn't do this as scum if I knew it was wrong."
Evidence: "I did this."
"I did not know it was wrong."
Conclusion: "I did this as scum."

I don't know of a better way to put it.

Okay, I feel like your logic is off here. Somehow. Let me see.

I think I know what it is. You're leaving out part of the hypothesis.

Hypothesis: Grim would not do this as scum because he would know it was wrong.

Therefore, Grim would only do this as townie, and only if he did not know it was wrong.

(If he knew it was wrong as a town, there would be no motive to do it.)

Evidence: Grim did it. Grim did not know it was wrong.

Conclusion: Because Grim did not know it was wrong, and because doing this as scum would be basically suicidal (i.e. it would fail and bring suspicion on him), and because Grim did end up doing it, this can not be a scum slip.

That being said, I hate that in my mind I am able to use this logic to clear Grim as a townie.

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Unless I'm missing something, your case against him here is a twisting of words to make him look scummy. I did not like your supposed Candi "scum slip", and I do not like this supposed Grim "scum slip". I am happy with my vote where it is.

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EBWOPreviewAgain (really you guys post a lot >_<)

Looking at my supposed scumslip I'm even more confident in saying you've got absolutely nothing on me.

You scumslipped again. Town wouldn't be concerned about whether or not I "had something" on them.

Let's say I am walking down the street and step inside a jewelry store to look around. As I am exiting, the security guard inside confronts me and says he thought he saw me lifting a necklace. I proceed to turn out my pockets, revealing nothing, and then tell him to go check his security cameras. As a final comment, I say to him, "This is ridiculous. You have nothing on me."

There is no scum motive in saying that; I was falsely accused of attempting to shoplift from a jewelry store and simply stated a fact that the accuser had no evidence to convict me of anything. I think you need to stop fabricating scum slips in posts just to further your agenda, which I can only assume is detrimental to the town as a whole.

[imkingdavid]

No big deal, but for the record, the last quote in your post (#289) you have attributed to yourself, when I actually said it.

That being said, I hate that in my mind I am able to use this logic to clear Grim as a townie.

Why is this a bad thing? At least something useful came out of my dumbfuckery.

I'm not against having a confirmed townie; in fact, having someone confirmed is good because we know we can trust that person. However, what I'm hesitant about is deciding that this does confirm him and later on realizing (too late) that there is something I'm not currently thinking of that makes it possible for him to be scum.

So I'll ask for the opinion of others... does this actually prove Grim is confirmed town or am I missing something?

Unless I'm missing something, your case against him here is a twisting of words to make him look scummy. I did not like your supposed Candi "scum slip", and I do not like this supposed Grim "scum slip". I am happy with my vote where it is.

Fair enough. What do you think of Cand/Grim's responses to my accusations?

I haven't been too pleased with Candi's continuous "I am town" insistence he has kept up literally all game, but specifically in his response to your scum tell accusation (see #199 for his response). After all, 0 players in this game are going to outright admit to being scum; it is assumed that each player would claim to be pro-town. Therefore, actually stating it as much as he has does not really make him look better in my eyes. Aside from that, he seems to keep a level head despite the accusation and doesn't become overly defensive. That earns him town points in my book.

As for Grim, I think the whole Caesar/gladiator stuff could have been left out, but aside from that I don't notice anything negative about it.

There is no scum motive in saying that; I was falsely accused of attempting to shoplift from a jewelry store and simply stated a fact that the accuser had no evidence to convict me of anything.

I think you need to stop fabricating scum slips in posts just to further your agenda, which I can only assume is detrimental to the town as a whole.

Yeah, we've established I'm a damned idiot. I'm curious though; if I'm scum like you think, what's the point of saying the bolded? As scum the whole point of my existence is to be a detriment to the town. Why are you telling me to stop being anti-town if you believe me to be scum?

Because if you're not scum and I have the wrong read on you, I want you to prove it to me by not being scummy and doing scummy things. Right now you've dug yourself a pretty deep hole, but I'm not going to start shoveling the dirt back into the hole on top of you yet. We still have 6-ish days to figure out the best candidate for a lynch.

By the way, while we're on the subject:

As scum the whole point of my existence is to be a detriment to the town.

Scum slip: "is to be" vs "would be to be"
It's the same thing you tried to pull on Grim.

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What is it with all these replacements requests in this game? Is it normal?

In a newbie game, unfortunately yes.

[imkingdavid]

@mod:

thanks for the update. Just one thing:

imkingdavid

(2): Syryana, Crandaja

I replaced Crand; I don't recall voting him voting himself.

Thanks, fixed

[imkingdavid]

Sorry for being unclear. What I'm talking about comes from the following conclusion in my post:

Conclusion: Because Grim did not know it was wrong, and because doing this as scum would be basically suicidal (i.e. it would fail and bring suspicion on him), and because Grim did end up doing it, this can not be a scum slip.

By that logic, it makes sense to me to assume that if he was scum he would not have tried to point out Crand's original "scum tell" (the whole "darling" thing). If he would not have done that as scum, I find it easy to make the logical leap that because he did it, he probably isn't scum. After all, I can find no scum motive behind doing it, and as is stated in my quote, doing it as scum would be suicidal.

Does that make sense? It is 3:37am so I may just be not thinking straight.

[imkingdavid]

I think that same sort of logic could be used to "clear" Syr in that sense. Syr could be a) scum trying to come up with a really flimsy case or b) be town with a really flimsy case. One could use that same argument (Why would Syr use such a poor argument as scum instead of lurking?) but it's too much WIFOM to me.

I don't think Syr is scum, I don't think Grim is scum. The argument felt pretty townie from both sides, both of them defending their viewpoints and pointing out various points about the others.

The thing is, I feel that the logical progression that (in my mind) very likely clears Grim is much more probable than what you just mentioned about Syr. Whether or not Syr is scum is definitely WIFOM. Whether or not Grim is town, I feel, is not quite so much WIFOM because it makes sense in my head and I cannot make it make sense that he is scum without assuming he is committing a very large gambit. I may, of course, be wrong.

Anyway, I guess I shouldn't continue to derail discussion by thinking about this. But please keep in mind that I am going to be making decisions with the assumption that Grim is town until I can find or am provided with strong evidence to him being scum.

The second quote is: I used the scumtell-approach because I thought it was true.
Later on you make clear that's how you understood it, but since the quotes stand out in your post I figured I'd better clarify.

You're right, my bad.

P-edit

I'm not interested in credit. Stuff happened, Grim townread resulted.

I wasn't implying "credit" for anything. I was simply pointing out, without it mattering too much to me, but just so others wouldn't be confused when reading, that it was something I had said, not something you had said.

[imkingdavid]

not just one now and he has more solidified my putting him in the town pile.

Sorry, but I can't tell to whom you're talking here, nor who "he/him" in your post is.

[imkingdavid]

@Rach - okay, thanks for clarifying. Without a quote or post number I couldn't tell.

@bane - Hi, I look forward to seeing your thoughts.

@mkfuba07 - It's been about 9 hours since your post in which you plan to be all caught up in the next hour (i.e. 8 hours ago). Forgive me if I sound impatient, but your slot has not yet participated in the game at all, so anything you can comment on would be great.

[imkingdavid]

@mod

- Syr voted Candi in #198. Unless I'm missing it, I don't see where he voted me after that.

VC 1.6-1.8 have been changed to reflect this. Thank you.

Regarding Syr - His whole tone seems to be very subdued, rather than accusatory like it had been, since he realized that the scum slip wasn't actually a scum slip. It's also been almost 2.5 days since his last post. After having a couple of days to think about it, I don't know what to think about the situation. He could very well be scum that was caught fabricating a forced, fake case; on the flip side, he could be a townie that actually did make a mistake and tunneled too hard. So I'm having second thoughts. I can't decide whether his tone, combined with how his reaction was worded, makes him scummy or townie in my eyes. I will continue to think about how I feel about it. I'm leaving my vote on him for now, for lack of a better place to put it, but I am planning to look at other people more in depth.

I don't like the lack of input from mkfuba and bane. They both promised input and neither has really delivered. I hate to lynch lurkers because that effectively forces a lynch (potentially a waste) based on no information and gives the scum a free kill at night. However, I don't think it's helpful to go into LyLo or MyLo with someone who hasn't participated in the game. Regardless, I'm not sure that either of these should be our Day 1 lynch unless one of them does something particularly scummy between now and then.

I really can't get a read either way on Rach because her posting style seems to average about 1 line per post and doesn't contain much analysis at all. About 23 hours ago she said:

meanwhile moving along to ISOs and giving my reads.

She then proceeded to quote all of shaboo and mkfuba07's posts and say she's happy with her vote on him. She hasn't added anything since. I'd be happy to hear her thoughts on other players.

Candi posts a lot (not recently, I notice). Other than that, I need to actually take a closer look at his posts, as well as LnG's case on him.

Homer has done nothing to really suspect him so far and has provided his thoughts fairly consistently. I'll take a closer look at him as well to make sure I'm not missing anything.

Same goes for LnGrrrR.

As for Grim, I am still only able to see him as obv town given the logic I posted before (still unable to see it any other way).

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Currently by my count Syr and Candi have the most votes, but there are 3 people with 1 vote as well. There's no general consensus on any one player. We really need to start discussing this a bit more so we can figure out a common suspect and have consensus on a lynch candidate by the deadline.

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EBWOPreview:

@candi - that could be taken as an appeal to emotion, which is not helpful. Do you have anything of your own to add to the discussion?

[imkingdavid]

Besides, the very fact you would even bring this up proves my point, at least about you.

Also, I'm not saying you're town purely because you're avoiding an easy mislynch, I'm saying you're town because you're avoiding mislynching me. After the events of last game I find it highly unlikely you'd pass up an opportunity to get me dead with no repercussions. Hence the townread.

Last game has no bearing on this game. If someone were to want to jump on someone this game based on something (anything) from last game, I would find that scummy. However, just because someone doesn't jump on someone for something in the previous game doesn't make them town; it's just expected that that wouldn't happen. More of a null read IMO.

As for the first half of your quote, personally when I play I always try to point out both sides of a situation, whether I'm scum or not. If I'm scum I'd obviously try to do so in a way in which I still end up on top, but I don't see Candi as any more or less scum for doing this.

At this point, I've only really cleared Grim and for a completely different reason, which I stated before.

[imkingdavid]

Fair point, David. Do you see me as scummy?

After looking through your posts in isolation, I notice that you post a lot but don't have a lot of content. The majority of your posts are just answering questions without giving analysis of your own. You have a long conversation with Grim about whether or not meta can be used as for a scum read. You vote shaboo because he's been lurking and then 19 posts later you unvote him but don't vote anyone else despite having 3 people on your reads list next to "Scum".

As I and others have pointed out, you repeatedly say "I am town" as if you're trying to subliminally convince us to not look your way by having a pro-town sentiment associated with your name constantly. This is one of the main things I don't like about your posts. Anyone you ask here is going to say they're town, so it's really expected; there's no need to say it even once outside of a claim scenario, much less as often as you did.

In #262 you comment on the increased activity and say "walls incoming" but your following posts don't really have any more content than your previous ones. Not that I'm saying we need a bunch of walls, but when you promise analysis and end up just posting your scum reads list again with a couple of changes, that's not really analysis.

In #313 you comment (directed at Syr):

Pedit: What is making you reconsider your read on me? I don't think any of my actions warrant an epiphany-like reread of my slot.

This is right after Syr decides to take a step back from the game and promises to do a re-read, but not specifically of Candi. Maybe nothing, but you just seem like you'd prefer Syr didn't go back over your posts, as if you were hiding something.

You vote LnG for tunneling and for "not stepping on anyone's toes" but beyond that I see nothing to comment on.

In all, it appears to me like you're trying to hide a lack of scum hunting behind a large quantity of posts and hope that no one actually goes over them to see that you haven't really said much beyond answering questions/defending your actions, asking a few "what are your thoughts?" questions, and sometimes throwing out your reads list.

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As I mentioned in #353, I have been reconsidering Syr based on his recent behavior. I feel it is about time I move my vote, though I definitely still suspect Syr.
UNVOTE: Syr
VOTE: Candi

I believe LnG is waiting on Candi to present a case or at least a read on him. I will re-evaluate my vote after he does this to see if I feel he is actually scum hunting.

[imkingdavid]

You misunderstand. I'm not townreading them for actions they took this game; I'm townreading them for opinions they expressed in postgame w.r.t. threats to their scumgame. I find it terribly hard to believe that they'd pass up an easy opportunity to mislynch me in this current situation after admitting that I'm a big obstacle to them winning as scum.

W.r.t. second half of the quote, I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think your playstyle really applies to Candillan. AFAICT he doesn't even have any completed scumgames and I don't think a response like that would have occurred to him so readily as scum. Perhaps I'm underestimating him, but I still think I'm right.

I suppose I understand what you're saying, but I still don't think that alone clears either of them, much less both of them. Keep in mind that you were never really in a position of an "easy mislynch".

At the time of #315, when Grim says he finds your argument "strangely convincing", he is still voting you. He doesn't remove his vote from you until #334, and not because he doesn't find you scummy but because he doesn't want a potential lynch situation while he's away if he can help it.

At worst,

with

Grim voting you, you were at L-2. If Candi wanted to hop on your wagon and get an "easy mislynch" he'd need to convince another person, and would need to count on the other three people not finding his eagerness suspicious and unvoting.

So I don't see them as necessarily passing up on an easy mislynch so much as 1) not having the opportunity, and 2) deciding not to tunnel you.

[imkingdavid]

In other words, I see it as a null tell at best.

[imkingdavid]

Ok, I see you addressed it in 353, yet let me put it more concretely: Would you be inclined to vote for her during this dayphase?

Depends. I could go for a Rach or Candi lynch at the moment, but I'm happy with my vote for now.

I would love to see Rach follow up on:

meanwhile moving along to ISOs and giving my reads.

She did say she would post on Sunday but never did (#365).

[imkingdavid]

@mod

- Bane and mkfuba07 are both in prod/replace range. Also, can we get an updated vote count?

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This lack of activity from certain players is really starting to piss me off. Several of us have posted our thoughts and carried on conversation at a reasonable pace, but a significant number of players are either AWOL or are purposely active lurking.

Neither Bane nor mkfuba have even visited the site since Friday. Rach has posted something like 35 times since her last post in this thread but has avoided this game specifically.

We're just under 4 days until lynch. Seriously, please post. Specifically you three.

Anyway, I will provide thoughts on LnG tomorrow. Right now it's too late for my brain to handle analysis.

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I have come to the conclusion that I don't really have a firm scum read on anyone. My top three at this pont (in no particular order) are Rach (active lurking, avoiding, no content), Candi (reasons stated previously), and Syr (tunneling on the fake scum slips; probably lowest of the three on my list at the moment).

I am considering placing Rach at L-1 tomorrow. Or if someone else beats me to it, I will consider hammering a little closer to deadline. That being said, I would also be comfortable (obviously) with a Candi lynch.

Regardless, whoever is placed at L-1, I officially request a role claim and that player's scum/town reads. That way we'll at least have some information to go on tomorrow after the flip.

[imkingdavid]

I hope the mod doesn't mind, but I am posting an unofficial vote count just so we can have a better idea of where things stand. My apologies if I missed something, but I'm pretty sure that it's correct:

LnGrrrR (1): Candillan
Candillan (2): LnGrrrR, imkingdavid (L-2)
mkfuba07 (1): RachMarie
Syryana (1): homertve
RachMarie (2): Grimgroove, Syryana (L-2)
Not voting: mkfuba07, Bane

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Thank you for posting, Rach.

However, why did you completely skip LnG? You neither analyze his posts nor is he on your reads list. Where does he fall in all of this?

Also, aside from him, the other two people I noticed you skimped on really looking into (from what I can read in your post) are myself and shaboo. Now, shaboo I can understand given his lack of content, but all I see about myself in the post is that my activity makes me lean town in your eyes.

Neither Bane nor mkfuba has visited the site since Saturday. Do you feel your vote on mkfuba's slot is really being effective where it is? Perhaps if the slot was visiting but just not participating, a vote might draw them back into the discussion (as it seems the wagon on you has done), but if he's not even going to visit the site, I doubt voting him will have any real impact. You did say you are leaning scum on Candi. Would you support a Candi lynch over a mkfuba slot lynch today? I'd rather not lynch someone simply based on lurking unless we're about to go into lylo or something.

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Grim - What are your thoughts on Rach's post? Do you still think she should be the Day 1 lynch?

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homer - Can you re-explain your reasons for voting Syr? Just from skimming your iso, you vote Syr during RVS and never change it until just now when you voted Rach and then moved it back to Syr.
Also, you name your top three as Rach (for active lurking), Raven (for lurking), and Syr (I don't see reasons in my skim but I may have missed them). What are your thoughts on a Candi lynch?

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As for me, now that Rach has posted actual content, my current vote on Candi will remain as it is. I feel that he is currently the best choice for a lynch for Day 1 at this point.

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Also, almost forgot, my read on LnG is null, leaning town. I just haven't really noticed anything specific that makes me feel uncomfortable with him, and I feel he adequately responded to the points Candi brought against him.

[imkingdavid]

EBWOP: BTW replace L-2 in the unofficial vote count above with L-3. I can't count, it seems.

[imkingdavid]

LnGrrrR does appear townier than Candillan, but LnGrrrR seems less townie than in "Title Pending", and Candillan seems more townie than in "Title Pending". I know, meta and all that, but there is something different about LnGrrrR that makes my gut scream: Watch this guy.

I was not in that game and don't really have time to read through 15 pages right now. If you have some time, would you mind giving a brief summary of how you think he's being different? Based only on his behavior alone in this game, I don't really find him as scummy as Candi or Syr. As for Rach skipping him in her reads, one could argue that if Rach/LnG are scum, she just "slipped" by "forgetting" to mention her partner. But to be honest, I'd rather not get into all that at the moment.

I will concede that the whole "how could I act townie" question and related stuff is kinda... interesting. But not enough to get my vote at the moment.

Also, as I said on 366, at this time I don't think Candi is a scum and I think we shouldn't lynch him today. Would you consider a lynch on Syr?

Well, he is one of my top three, so yes.

I'd like to ask everyone to give their opinion on Candillan and LnGrrrR specifically at this stage.

I think I've addressed both of them adequately, but let me know if you think I'm missing something.

[imkingdavid]

*Sigh*

Okay. I just woke up and saw two more pages of posts over the span of 2 hours. Activity = good, but the discussion especially on page 18 gives me a headache because it's... wierd, to say the least, and because I'm not quite fully awake. Give me a few minutes to write up a reply.

[imkingdavid]

@mod

please re-replace Bane and mkfuba during Night 1. I've given up on expecting anything out of those slots anymore.

------

So given the quick addition of pages, I figured another unofficial votecount would make things a bit easier to understand. As always, point out any mistakes I made:
LnGrrrR (3): Candillan, Grimgroove, Syryana
Candillan (3): LnGrrrR, imkingdavid, RachMarie
Syryana (1): homertve
Not voting: mkfuba07, Bane

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Okay. We have 2 people at L-2. We are effectively working with 7 players because two of the 9 are AWOL (once again), but unlike a Day 2 situation, where the lynch requirement of four votes would reflect a 7 player game, we still need 5 votes to lynch anyone.

I don't feel particularly strongly about a LnG lynch right now. But I think the only support a Candi lynch is going to get at this point is the support it already has.

-----
(Note that in the following I am leaving out both AWOL's because I think it's unrealistic to expect anything from them before Day 2.)

Okay. So for a LnG lynch, two of the following three people have to vote for him: myself, Rach, and homer. It's

very unhelpful

that Rach decided to omit LnG from her reads list because I don't know where she stands on him. Homer is obviously not going to vote LnG because he feels he is town.

For a Candi lynch, two of the following three people have to vote for him: Grim, Syr, and Homer. Homer also feels Candi is town. Syr, in #356, feels that Cand is "100%" town. Grim doesn't feel strongly about a Candi lynch.

And homer's still trying to push a Syr lynch, which I feel is even less likely, though I would definitely go for it if it had any chance of happening.

So we're at an impasse.

What I am about to do, I do not because I particularly suspect LnG, but because we need a lynch, and if I don't do this, I don't see how we're going to get a lynch. I am going to put him at L-1 and I expect

no one to hammer

until either 1) he provides his defense and we have some time to talk about it, or 2) we get too close to deadline for it to matter if he says anything.

UNVOTE: Candi
VOTE: LnG

[imkingdavid]

Glad to see a replacement for at least one person. Looking forward to your reads.

[imkingdavid]

I'm not fully caught up but we have Aprox 25 hours to lynch. Someone please explain the case on Lngrr to me.

Long story super short, the tone in his posts this game is dispassionate and emotionless compared to last game.

Spoiler: Longer now

Spoiler: Longer then

Can you provide specific examples of posts last game vs this game to better illustrate your point?

Also, is his change in tone the only reason you find him scummy?

Although, I suppose given your "100%" confidence in Candi being town, you're just going for the next most probable lynch, no?

Wait, am I at L-2, or L-1?

L-2 by my count.

I too would prefer a Candi lynch today. I am definitely willing to put Candi at L-1. However, is there anyone that's willing to hammer (after a claim of course)? Me moving my vote back to Candi would be pointless if no one is willing to hammer. Then again, I'm don't remember if anyone has yet stated intent to hammer LnG.

[imkingdavid]

I understand the time crunch and your willingness to lynch but can you currently justify a "candi" mislynch? (not voting but if he turns town..?) where does that put you with us?

Eh? Are you saying for sure that lynching Candi would be a mislynch? And how is it my responsibility to justify if Candi gets lynched and flips town? I don't think I really understand what you're trying to ask here.

To all on my wagon; do you think my flip will tell you anything about those on the wagon?
To all on Candy's wagon, same question.

Yes to both.

[imkingdavid]

Moth, I take it you're willing to hammer Candi?

Let me do this then.

VOTE: Candi

Please wait until a couple of hours before deadline to hammer. Or at least until Candi claims.

[imkingdavid]

EBWOP: Oh, you've already voted him. Never mind then.

Whomever is willing to hammer, wait until a couple of hours before deadline or for a claim.

[imkingdavid]

Hmmm...

Okay.

UNVOTE: Candi
VOTE: LnG

Back to you. You're at L-1. I guess you've already basically claimed townie, then?

[imkingdavid]

Core - no, there is never a case when it is good to skip a day 1 lynch.

[imkingdavid]

Since my vote on LnG was out of necessity and I would like a Syr lynch more, I will go ahead and do this:

VOTE: Syr

L-1.

We are 7.5 hours from deadline. Please claim.

---------------

Unofficial vote count:
Syryana (4): homertve, mothrax, LnGrrrR, imkingdavid
LnGrrrR (3): Candillan, Grimgroove, Syryana
Candillan (1): RachMarie
Not voting: Core_H86

[imkingdavid]

EBWOP. I forgot this mod apparently requires unvotes. To ensure my vote counts:

UNVOTE: LnG
VOTE: Syr

[imkingdavid]

Okay... Less than 9 hours left and no one is even at L-1. What the hell?

Between LnG and Syr, I'd obviously prefer the latter. But I'll vote LnG if that is what is needed to get a lynch. I'll keep an eye on the thread and make a decision closer to deadline. But please, not having our minds made up this close to deadline is a bad thing.

[imkingdavid]

Okay, here's my unofficial vote count with ~5 hours to go:

LnGrrrR (3): Candillan, Grimgroove, Syryana (L-2)
Syryana (3): mothrax, imkingdavid, RachMarie (L-2)
Not voting: Core_H86, LnGrrr, homertve

Core seems to be against lynching today.

As for LnG and homer, one question:

If deadline were coming up soon (hint, hint) who would you most like to vote? Please state your answer in [vote][/vote] form. We have <5 hours.

[imkingdavid]

Rach, if you vote LnG, I won't mind being the hammer.

[imkingdavid]

Given that we're so close to deadline and nothing is happening and I don't see enough support for a Syr lynch, here we go.

VOTE: LnG

Good night.

[imkingdavid]

ok now that we're here how was that a good end to day 1? what makes it so bad to have a no lynch?

No lynch = Free night kill for scum with no information gained. We'd basically be in the same position as we were at the end of day 1, except with one less person.

Instead, we have information about LnG's role and can read through the past day with that information in mind, keeping in mind player interactions.

[imkingdavid]

As a side note, I will be starting a new full time job tomorrow so I will really only be available during evenings/nights/weekends and lunch break (on my phone). If this becomes a problem, I will replace out, but I don't foresee it becoming a big issue.

[imkingdavid]

Sorry haven't had a chance to respond. Will do tomorrow.

[imkingdavid]

I am exhausted (long day at work; still not used to the new sleep schedule). But I promised a post, so here you go.

Let's please not waste time arguing hypothetical "what if the jk had jailed candi" and related stuff. It didn't happen. If it had (i.e. if there had been a no kill), we wouldn't know if it was because of that or for another reason. I don't understand why it was even brought up.

Something's bugging me about homer's play now. He tunnels Syr almost exclusively throughout Day 1, from RVS right up until there's a chance at Syr actually being lynched. Then he pulls his vote to "think about it a little longer". Note that at that point we're at about 21-ish hours to deadline (by my calculations). And given the fact that my hammer was ~5 hours from deadline, with the level of activity we had the only way we were going to get a lynch was to either hope that he suddenly came back and put Syr at L-1 and hope that someone else decides to hammer, or else go ahead and take the sure lynch that we ended up taking.

Also, in #594 he says:

Both LnG and Syr claimed themselves to be VT. Lynching either of them will give us at least something to work with tomorrow.

And now he asks (#658):

Also - where are the people who said we can learn something from LnG's lynch? What did we learn? Was it a good lynch?

Which sounds to me like he's trying to distance himself from it. Sure, he was never on the LnG wagon, but this whole "where at the people" bit following the previous bit I quoted, combined with him unvoting Syr before a lynch could be made just feels fishy to me. Feels to me like either he and Syr or scum and he's trying to distance himself without fully bussing Syr, or else he's scum with someone else and is trying to make himself sound good by distancing himself from the lynch wagon that he was at the very least in agreement with allowing to happen.

So there's that.

But to answer your questions:

What did we learn?

We learned that LnG was town.

Was it a good lynch?

Loaded question. There's an implied "no, you're wrong, I'm right" behind it. Obviously a scum lynch would be more beneficial. But a townie lynch isn't the end of the world. Until LyLo.

--------

There are at least two (maybe three) players that shared my feelings yesterday about you being a scum. What do you think now?

(the first "you" Syr, the second "you" is the "two (maybe three) players", one of whom is me)
I still don't like Syr's tunnel vision on Grim and Candi. One can argue that Syr's complete 180 in attitude once I pointed out his error is scummy because the "I'm stupid" bit becomes an AtE, but then again, what else are you going to do in that situation at this point, whether as town or scum?

With that being the only problem I can remember having with Syr during Day 1, sure I could still potentially support his lynch, but not before taking a look at some alternatives. Such as yourself.

[imkingdavid]

EBWOP:
"at this point" in the second to last paragraph above should be "at that point"

[imkingdavid]

@mod - Vote count, please.

Are you serious?

Yes. Why?

"Why?" is what I'd like to ask you. What makes him pro-town to you? He's done nothing this entire game, aside from say we should no-lynch and then blame us for lynching someone that ended up pro-town.

In fact, reading his ISO, he has contributed absolutely 0 to this game. In his ISO #17 he is still "patching things together" (Friday, June 07).

One week later

(Saturday, June 15), he is still "trying to catch up" (ISO #22). Despite not being caught up in the game, he has posted 24 times, which means he's not lurking; he's here, and he's actively trying to appear active. But he's said and done nothing.

So core: who do you find suspicious, and why?

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I like David's #659, particularly the bit about homer's switch from "LnGrrR will give us info" to "What info did we get from LnGrrR". Though I will say that homer's unvote in whatever post that was seems more likely a knee-jerk reaction to my calling him on his tunneling moreso than "distancing". Unless we're talking about different unvotes.

I wasn't saying the unvote was distancing, I was saying that the fact that he's been voting you this whole time could be seen as distancing. I was saying the unvote was scum-him trying not to bus scum-you.

[imkingdavid]

Sorry for inactivity. Due to Father's day it was a busy weekend and today was a long day at work. I'll be sure to catch up tomorrow evening.

[imkingdavid]

@mod please prod mothrax

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imkingdavid: What do you make of Syryana, RachMarie, and any possible connection between them? Do you think they could be affiliated?

I haven't noticed any sort of glaring connection between them. I'll need to take the time to iso them together and see if I notice anything.

Core - the only player you didn't give thoughts on in #675, aside from yourself (obviously) is Grim. You follow that up with #688 ("grim you town?") which is a very pointless question and too nonchalant of an attitude for being this far in the game. Please provide your read on him.

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My suspects at this time are 1. Syr (scum slip followed by 180 degree change in attitude/tone), 2. homer (see #659), and 3. core (see #672).

[imkingdavid]

I really, really hate to do this to you guys, but my job is taking a heck of a lot more time than I thought it would and I don't have time to participate like I had hoped.

@mod - I'm very sorry, but please replace me.

[imkingdavid]

Hey guys.

Good job.

And sorry for leaving. Work's a bitch. I knew I wouldn't be able to participate in the game (much less in all 3 games I was in at the time) at any reasonable level, so replacing out was my only option.