Newbie 1444 ~ Game Ovah ~ Mafia Win

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Catching up. I hope to be done by Sunday.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak's Catchup Reads

Town

Kytoxid

: He's been actively scumhunting, and you can tell that he is actually trying to figure things out. Definitely town.

Thor665

: He's a strong player in general, and I agree with my predecessor's logic in relation to the night actions. Thor was more than likely targeted by the scum team, which suggests that scum do not want him in this game. This also makes newbie scum more likely, as most experienced scum know better than to aim at the IC n1 in a Newbie game. I like how he's trying to figure people's motivations out, and I agree with him in regards to Burn and Zipper. I also think that his interaction with Sakura during twilight of d1 is more likely to come from town than scum. Sorry, but I'm not lynching him under any circumstances today.

Null/Town

1baldeagle1

: I've recently come to understand how he thinks a little bit more, and he genuinely looks like he's trying to figure things out, although not effectively. He's probably town.

Cxinlee

: I liked Micc and got a general town feel from him. Cxinlee hasn't really done much overall, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for his predecessor's sake.

Null

Montosh

: Gale looked like he could have been a Newbie honestly trying to learn how to play. Sure, there were a few things that pinged, but that could have been the result of his newbiness. So overall, null. His replacement really didn't leave much of an impression either.

Scum

Zipperflesh

: I thought it was funny how many people called Zipper town because of his catchup posts. That just goes to show that they really didn't read them. Many players will actually write off walls as coming from town, regardless of the content, simply because they hold the notion that scum wouldn't put forth the effort. However, that is not the case. Take Zipper's catchup posts, for instance. All they are composed of are a bunch of quotes followed by filler. There's no critical analysis from these posts, just throwaway lines. It's simply put together for appearence's sake, rather than to actually scumhunt. Not to mention his votes have simply been following the general flow of the game, i.e. where the majority was going anyway. Then there is the Thor push, which is probably the most opportunistic thing in this entire game, using the momentum from a dead townie's final reads, which even she wasn't 100% positive on since she interacted with Thor in twilight AS IF HE WAS TOWN. I'm really not seeing the town motivation here.

Burn_209

: Where do I start... His posts are not genuine, rather very calculated and manipulative, meant to look like a lot, but saying very little. He also hasn't had very strong stances, always keeping his options open. You'll see things like, "Well, she might be scum, but she might not.", or that 48/52 crap. It's all meant to keep everyone on the table as possible lynch targets. His play just doesn't feel natural. He's trying too hard to act like town, rather than just being town. A good example of this is all of his complaining about nobody posting. If he actually had a problem with that, then why didn't he do something to try to stir up activity. Complaining about it does nothing, except put on the appearance of being pro-town. The same thing goes with his recent push to have everybody post reads lists. He was the only one that was asked to post one, but he then thinks "Hey, this looks like a thing a townie would do. I'm going to do it as well, so that maybe someone will think I'm town.". It's not done naturally, i.e. it's fake. And did anybody else catch him commenting on the lack of the night kill at the beginning of the day? I'm surprised Thor or somebody else didn't try to nail his feet to the floor for that one. Last but not least, let's look at what he's pushing others on. We're talking about things like sheeping, tunneling, and "trying to get a lynch on page 2", which are mostly null tells, but can seem significant enough for scum to try to push mislynches on. Face it, he's done zero serious scumhunting. He's just repeated the reasoning on others and waffled a lot until it looked like that person's wagon might take off. This is not town behavior. This is scum behavior, through and through.

Vote Zipperflesh

[Bulbazak]

And did anybody else catch him commenting on the lack of the night kill at the beginning of the day? I'm surprised Thor or somebody else didn't try to nail his feet to the floor for that one.

Why should we think that is scummy? I agree that he's scum, but I see that sort of commentary from newb town as much as I do from newb scum.

I've seen that tell come from scum more than town. You're right that it's probably more of a newb tell in Newbie games, but you can normally tell if it's based on newbiness or if it's an actual tell given the overall composition of the player's posts. With Burn, it's obvious that he knows what he's doing, making that not a newbie tell.

[Bulbazak]

What makes him feel more experienced to you?

He has a confidence that new players generally don't have. Plus, he knows enough about the game to use the basic, but obsolete, scum tells that are sheeping and tunneling. I'm not saying it's a perfect scum game, hence the tells, but it is evidence that he's played before. I even think he said so himself.

[Bulbazak]

1. I have to disagree with you. I pulled things that stood out to from each as I was playing catch up and followed each quote with an opinion and/or question. What makes you call this " throw away filler"?

/confirm

Hi Antagon, Hi Thor, Hi Talah, nice to play with people I know

Can you elaborate on your past experiences with these players, and why say hi to Antagon first?

/confirm

Hi there Sakura!

Highly unlikely you and Sakura are scum mates, however, either of you could still be part of a different scum team.

Seriously, there's no way you'd be trying to draw conclusion from pre-game contentless confirmation posts as town. This is just useless filler meant to make it look like you're scumhunting. I also wasn't impressed with any of your other "conclusions" either, since they were mostly rehashes of things that had been said.

2. Did you look at my votes? Obviously, my vote on burn could be construed as following the mob mentality, but I do believe I was the first to express a vote on Antagon. I also took a lot of flak from Thor who couldn't grok my vote switches day 1. If I wanted to ride the easy lynch, wouldn't I have just stayed on burn?

Antagon was starting to get some attention when you switched to him. Besides, I think you and Burn are buddies.

3. Nothing is 100% positive about a town players read. After seeing the flip, I went back and looked over her interactions with Thor and realized she had made a decent point. Which also was against the flow of the town, btw. As burn was still at the forefront of people's mind at day start.

Sakura was going full on last minute paranoid. Those points didn't hold any water, as Thor later pointed out. Plus, the way she interacted with Thor during twilight showed that she still trusted him enough to do some last minute scumhunting. There's no way you do that with a scumread. You played on a dying player's final stated read and used that to push a lynch on a strong player, who you likely failed to kill during the night.

[Bulbazak]

I want the reasonings behind both wagons before I reread

Here's my reason for Zipper-scum:

Zipperflesh[/b]: I thought it was funny how many people called Zipper town because of his catchup posts. That just goes to show that they really didn't read them. Many players will actually write off walls as coming from town, regardless of the content, simply because they hold the notion that scum wouldn't put forth the effort. However, that is not the case. Take Zipper's catchup posts, for instance. All they are composed of are a bunch of quotes followed by filler. There's no critical analysis from these posts, just throwaway lines. It's simply put together for appearence's sake, rather than to actually scumhunt. Not to mention his votes have simply been following the general flow of the game, i.e. where the majority was going anyway. Then there is the Thor push, which is probably the most opportunistic thing in this entire game, using the momentum from a dead townie's final reads, which even she wasn't 100% positive on since she interacted with Thor in twilight AS IF HE WAS TOWN. I'm really not seeing the town motivation here.

Is there anything in particular that you liked from Micc?

I thought his scumhunting felt genuine.

Do you see what he's doing in post 398 then?

It looks like he simply assumed wall=town in regards to Burn. The only thing that I find off is his voting Thor based on Thor's use of self-meta. I'd need to check if Eagle thinks self-meta is scummy first, though.

I thought it was funny how many people called Zipper town because of his catchup posts. That just goes to show that they really didn't read them.

I don't remember who exactly was making these comments, but if Zipper gets lynched today, do you think his flip, combined with the people that did the above, can be used to narrow down the suspects? Or is this more of a null tell?

As I've said, there's a tendency for town to associate walls with town posting. I don't think it's indicative of alignment at all.

[Bulbazak]

If you were actually town, you're already setting up mafia's kill tonight on yourself regardless, so...why bother hiding it?

It is a no-win scenario, but it's better to lynch scum than have a mislynch wasted on yourself, especially if you can ward it off.

Zipper's right. The Thor NK doesn't make sense coming from him.

Unvote

Vote Burn_209

This, however, needs to happen. I'm not voting for either of the 2 wagons today. We have plenty of time to lynch Burn-scum, folks.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, why burn over thor?

Because Thor is town, and Burn is scum.

[Bulbazak]

No clue. I need to look back over associations.

[Bulbazak]

95%

[Bulbazak]

I'm not lynching strong town reads.

[Bulbazak]

Vote Burn_209

What's with the face, Cxinlee?

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak's Hierarchy of Reads (D3)

Town

Kytoxid
Thor665
Notscience

Null/Town

Zipperflesh
1baldeagle1

Null

Cxinlee

Scum

Burn_209

[Bulbazak]

Can you explain why you're townreading ns?

His reactions read very town and genuine. Why? Are you not?

Also, why are you voting Thor as opposed to anyone else if you are simply ticked that d2 ended in a no lynch? Do you blame Thor? Do you think his actions d2 make him more likely to be scum? Why or why not.

[Bulbazak]

Burn behaving very calm at deadline seems odd to me.

In what way?

Can you elaborate on how his posts looked genuine?

He looks like he's actually trying to figure things out, rather than being scum who's faking trying to figure them out. What makes you think NS is scum?

[Bulbazak]

Tbh, I kinda want a full-claim from zipper. We went two nights without a kill, so it's not really a big deal.

[Bulbazak]

Well, zipper didn't die last night, so I want him to full-claim now and if he's still alive tomorrow, then we can speedlynch him.

There's no need for him to full claim now. If he's a protective role, he continues to do what he's been doing. If he's an investigative role, then he will claim when he feels it is necessary. And if he's town trying to draw the NK, then having him claim will negate everything he's trying to do. So no, he shouldn't be forced to claim right now.

[Bulbazak]

I like how Thor is basically telling people what to do in this thread and if they aren't on board they must be scum. Its ridiculous. Town people work as a team to get things done. Scum dictate to the town what they should or shouldnt do. You tunneling reeks of scum and if someone challenges you, you assume they are scum. You did it with Zipper and you did it with Cx and Bald. You have to be scum....I know it.

VOTE: THOR

[Bulbazak]

Thor, if I thought you were scum, I would have lynched you yesterday.

[Bulbazak]

I was going for flailing, but whatever.

[Bulbazak]

I've not seen anything since day 1 to reinforce a burn scum case, and I do not like the fact that Thor is ignoring all his day 2 and day 3 actions.

Was there something day 2 or 3 that made you doubt the scummy behavior on d1?

[Bulbazak]

Let's say Thor's suspicion of Burn is measured in numbers.

Day 1 his suspicion meter in rises by 1

Day 2 and Day 3 nothing happens

His suspicion meter is still positive

What's scummy about this?

Shouldn't the "number" go down if nothing happens?

No. His actions d1 were very scummy. Even if he did nothing alignment indicative either way for the rest of the game, the scales would still tip on the scummy side.

You guys are all basing the evidence from stuff on Day 1. You did not bother to include anything from Day 2 or 3.

His d1 actions gave me my initial read. His d2 and d3 actions solidified it. Remember, I replaced in on d2, and I saw nothing that screamed town.

Burn was a decent candidate for a day 1 lynch, but I haven't seen anything to convince me he'd be a better day 2 or day 3 lynch.

I take it you're not paying attention if you're ignoring all the survivalistic behavior and scum flailing. You better have a very convincing claim when it comes time...

[Bulbazak]

What behavior are you referring too?

Let's just start with his commenting on the lack of NK d2 and his survivalistic and opportunistic approach to the Thor wagon today. Seriously, that vote was terribad. As for his overall behavior, I outlined it sufficiently when I replaced in, and I've seen nothing from Burn that changes that. You don't change a scumread due to lack of engagement, if anything, it should suggest you were right.

[Bulbazak]

What do you mean survivalisitc and opportunistic approach to the thor wagon?

Thor votes you and starts pushing you hard. Then he starts to be suspected by NS and Zipper. As soon as that happens, you enter with this post:

I like how Thor is basically telling people what to do in this thread and if they aren't on board they must be scum. Its ridiculous. Town people work as a team to get things done. Scum dictate to the town what they should or shouldnt do. You tunneling reeks of scum and if someone challenges you, you assume they are scum. You did it with Zipper and you did it with Cx and Bald. You have to be scum....I know it.

VOTE: THOR

You took advantage of the current suspicion on Thor to try to survive. Your vote had nothing to do with you scumhunting, since you used BS reasoning to push your vote. Not only that, the reasoning is over the top and reads fake as crap. It was an opportunistic vote on a person who was already suspected, and who also suspected you. That has scum motivation written all over it.

The game is stalling out because we havent had a kill in two nights and a day.

I wouldn't say the game is stalling. We've had some good discussion this day phase, and I believe we will be able to figure out your partner after we lynch you. It is unfortunate that we weren't able to get a lynch yesterday, but given the lack of a NK, we didn't lose anything by it. And all those missing NKs tell us is that we have a protective role that is doing their job. I don't see how this is a bad thing, unless you are scum feeling cornered by a strong town.

So I voted who I thought was the most scummy.

The overjustification is noted.

I hear all this about scum flailing and what not yet no one has said what exactly that is.

When scum are caught, they tend to do anything they can to disrupt their lynch, and sometimes it can get quite ridiculous, like a fish flopping around on dry land. It's essentially over, but they hope that if they keep struggling, maybe they can survive and avoid being lynched.

Bulba and Thor have this elitist attitude and throw out bullshit terms with out and follow up and expect people to follow them.

This is a Newbie game. Thor is the IC, and I'm one of your SEs. It is our responsibility to help teach you the game and prepare you for what you will encounter on the site. If you think we are elitist for using common terminology, then you need to rethink why you are joining in the first place. Yes, you might call this site somewhat elitist, but that's only because most of the players on this site take the game very seriously. This is not some run of the mill forum with a mafia subsection. You are essentially entering into the pros. If you don't understand a term, ask us, and we'll explain it for you. But don't try to use our qualifications for teaching you this game against us, just so you can escape your lynch.

To explain:

A player is survivalistic when they are focusing on surviving, or living, more than anything else. While town can be survivalistic, it's more of a scum trait, since their entire wincon involves staying alive. Town shouldn't worry about that as much, since their main objective is to find scum, which their death might assist in.

Opportunism is taking advantage of a situation to further your wincon, in particular, taking advantage of other's suspicion in order to push a mislynch. Scum who are being opportunistic are trying to push what they see as an easy wagon to further their wincon.

Now you are without excuse. Do you want to come at us with something legitimate now, or do you want to continue flinging poo?

[Bulbazak]

I think Thor just summarized why I don't advocate voting no lynch. If you're going to no lynch, then let it be a decision at the end of the day in Mylo, instead of your go to response. Essentially, if you're in Mylo, and you're still not getting anywhere after a full day of discussion, THEN you should no lynch.