Shadow's terminally happy Newbie 1451 game over,mod exploded

[TierShift]

Hi all!
I`ve just started wandering this baffling world of Mafia and yet I`m extraordinarily pleased to see my vocabulary expanding at an alarming rate. I would love to tribute this joyous gain to Shadowmod, speaker of happy tongues.
Have a good one!

[TierShift]

VOTE: pirate mollie

Pirates are anti-town? Also, you still need to confirm.

[TierShift]

Omg cobbz our reasoning is flawless

[TierShift]

GM has a point.

Vote: Tier

May I ask what point that is?

[TierShift]

May I ask what point that is?

Why did you point out that mollie hadn't confirmed in the manner requested but not mention that DC hadn't done so either?

Well, I was talking about mollie specifically at that point, I suppose I could have also noted that there was someone else yet to confirm, but it wasn't

necessary

...

goodmorning: looking back, I like that goodmorning caught me not mentioning malakittens in 1436. Looking for hidden intent to my post, feels town. I don't really understand what she sees about tiershift, though.

I don't really follow the reasoning in this post. Why wouldn't scum look to this 'hidden intent', which obviously isn't even there? Is this a way to make goodmorning look townish while at the same time distancing yourself from her?

[TierShift]

GM has a point.

Vote: Tier

May I ask what point that is?

Why ask Huntress and not me?

You made it appear as if it was a random vote, so I thought, "what is the point that huntress is seeing?" But if there is a reason you voted for me, would you be as kind as to enlighten us?

All I meant is that Rothwell seems to be around, which makes me wonder if he's following the thread but not posting for some reason.

I don't really have much to input, and I don't fancy random lynching as everyone seems to have done so have just observed.

Here's a little advice: when a game's just started and I'm not familiar with any of the players, I sometimes look for things that seem odd somehow and point them out.

And the more eyes out, the better.

I have a few thoughts but I'm going to keep them under my hat for now.

And what is the reaaon you are not telling us? Don't you want to help town?

So far, you have not contributed anything particularly useful and you have taken on a defensive stance, instead of a -townish- offensive one. This all seems very scummy, considering you are the IC.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: goodmorning

[TierShift]

Someone is buddying me halp

[TierShift]

you know what bro? forget it.

UNVOTE: pirate mollie
VOTE: Tier

Look, I didn't mean to insult you, it's just that:

VOTE: pirate mollie

Pirates are anti-town? Also, you still need to confirm.

I wrote this

Vote: pirate mollie

pirates can't be trusted

Then you wrote this

GM has a point.

Vote: Tier

May I ask what point that is?

I wrote this

In post 29, Huntress wrote:
GM has a point.

Vote: Tier

i don't see any reason to vote for Tier there is not "point" in any previous post

Then you wrote that

It's just that you copied me twice for 3 posts, that make up half of your posts so far. Why would you do that?

[TierShift]

Sorry for double post.

Someone is buddying me halp

This is possibly the most entertaining post thus far this game.

As to your previous questions, there are very good reasons for me to hang back for now. I did it in N1305 in an attempt to get evidence for my scumread, for instance, but I think I said what I'm going for here best in N1402:

@GM, NS, and Scar (in order of importance, least to greatest)
Why didn't you guys try to make content out of your recent posts? Page 1 fluff can lead to page 2 fluff which can lead to long, drawn out games.

Mainly because literally you, me and notsci are the only ones who've posted anything more than "Vote: x; insert silly reason here". I want to see what the newbies have got to say for themselves rather than drop ideas that might be sheeped.

@DC: Do you have any reads so far? Anything you've seen that looks off?

This actually makes sense. I do think it's reasonable to expect you to actively join discussion later on.

I'm not really happy with the activity of the other newbies next to me and d_cobbz, how should we pressure them to join discussion? Vote for them?

[TierShift]

Rothwell, could you just tell us what you think of the game so far? Who looks the most townish and who the most scummy?

[TierShift]

Wow that's one bog standard IC post

I don't see how cobbs latest vote is so interesting, i proposed an idea and he supported it. Can you explain?
Rothwell has been on today, he is lurking badly.

[TierShift]

One has already admitted to lurking; which can be taken two ways. He's mafia and scared to post or he's town and is lost.

The 2nd option is better.

And could you perhaps do more to show us that you are in fact town and not lurking scum?

Rothwell, could you just tell us what you think of the game so far? Who looks the most townish and who the most scummy?

Stale and I have no idea. My apologies but I've put little effort into this and haven't looked at any past games to see how the discussion works. Once again I have nothing to input so haven't bothered to post.

I suggest then that you do look into older games, if you have no clue how to play this game and don't do anything to change that, how do you think you will be able to participate?

Pressure votes have been known to work with varying levels of effectiveness depending on the player.

They'll work on me, for now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: rothwell

There you go.

I don't have any solid scumreads atm and I'd rather place my vote where it can do some work. Also, lynch all lurkers!

Rothwell, do you think this attack of mine is justified?

[TierShift]

So far, you have not contributed anything particularly useful and you have taken on a defensive stance, instead of a -townish- offensive one. This all seems very scummy, considering you are the IC.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: goodmorning

I don't have any solid scumreads atm and I'd rather place my vote where it can do some work.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Rothwell vote (obviously), but can you help me reconcile these two posts? If goodmorning's behavior seems very scummy, is she not a solid scumread?

I'm sorry, I should have explained myself better. I was finding it very weird that GM was so passive, but she explained why very well. Looking back, her only posts were 'being a good IC-posts', hope you understand what I mean. She hasn't put in much to work with yet, but I thought she was deliberately passive not to give away information. If she means what she says, she is not scummy, just waiting for us to start discussion and jump in later. I would say my scum read is now a null read. If later on she doesn't actively participate, she is going back to being scum for me.

Spoiler: TierShift

Total posts: 11. At least tiershift seems to be making an effort to scumhunt, +1 for actually asking questions.

Answering #45: Anything town can do, scum can theoretically mimic. I still think some things can hint at towniness. Obviously in this particular case she was on the wrong track, but I liked that she started critically examining from post #1, which scum doesn't have a strong motivation to do.

#78 tiershift comes off a bit defensive here. Maybe this is just because I was already leaning (very slightly) town on GM, but it makes Tiershift seem scummier.
#86 "I'm not really happy with the activity of the other newbies next to me and d_cobbz" Really?? d_cobbz is the newbie who's content you're most impressed with? The guy with exactly 2 opinions, both stolen from you? The tiershift/d_cobbz affair just gets wierder and wierder.

First of all, I'm a he
Secondly, as I believe huntress has already said, attacking one of your townreads is not scummy AT ALL. How do I come off defensively? And why do you keep repeating that GM is one of your townreads?
I guess you're right on what I said about cobbz, it was just that he had posted something at that moment, while the other newbs hadn't posted in over 24 hours. His content was bad, true, but sheeping gives us more to talk about than lurking, right? Atm I think he, rothwell, huntress and mollie (please, could you do some less confusing one line posts?) need to start making more contentful posts.

Spoiler: Rothwell

Total posts: 2, both after being voted.
With so little content it's hard to say, but if laziness is antitown this guy's a murderer. "My apologies but I've put little effort into this and haven't looked at any past games to see how the discussion works. Once again I have nothing to input so haven't bothered to post."
I almost want to lynch him just for this, regardless of alignment.

Exactly my thoughts.

@everyone: what is going on between tiershift and d_cobbz?

I was just joking with him on page 1, trying to gauge his reaction. But what he is doing now, I have no idea, I'm just calling him out on it. It seems just as scummy as it seems newbish....

@tiershift: does anyone else seem scummy to you besides goodmorning? Does anyone seem towny?

As I've said, I'm not so much on GM anymore. I haven't got any real leads yet, but I'm thinking NP is town. Then, I'm leaning scum on mala and rothwell, but that's just gut.

[TierShift]

Secondly, as I believe huntress has already said, attacking one of your townreads is not scummy AT ALL. How do I come off defensively? And why do you keep repeating that GM is one of your townreads?

It was our pirate who said that, not huntress.

[TierShift]

Well, I think his general way of handling things is townish...just a feeling I got. After ISOíng him, I'm wondering what his connection to mala his, mentioning her in so many of his posts and being guided by what she thinks. (oh lord my reads are weaving back and forth)

Also, never rule out any scumpair

[TierShift]

As far as i can tell no one has posted any suspicious content/ posts
I will try to post more detailed posts in the future

This is just not going to cut it. If you say you have nothing to talk about, could you at least try to make a list of town to scum, with a little bit of explaining, like emerald just did?

I'm not referring to the act of questioning itself.

What are you referring to, you got us all on the edge of our seats! The fact that the other quotes were said by scum and that they asked questions to players doesn't seem too strong a connection? Basically just what mala said in response.

1) I am still feeling bad about tiershift+d_cobbz. In particular post #86 really did feel suspicious to me, like tiershift wants to distance from d_cobbz but doesn't actually want people to pressure him. Both goodmorning and malakittens said d_cobbz's votes were interesting, but didn't say more. Both are giving me slightly scummy vibes, although I'm starting to like tiershift against my better judgement.

I don't see how that particular post is me trying to distance myself from cobbz...also why is it so weird that I do want to distance myself from a highly scummy player?

[TierShift]

GM, your case so far is that emeraldemon has asked some not very in-depth questions to every player? Wouldn't there be examples of this being done by town players?

Still, I do agree that both NP and ED might make some more useful analyses and ask some real questions.

[TierShift]

That is one BAD defense emeraldemon...lemme break it down.
1. you don't have a style
2. collecting questions that aren't falling in the categories mentioned by GM

I'm inclined to think that if you're town, you'll figure me out eventually and I shouldn't waste time defending myself.

Is this admitting to be scum?

But I have to admit your fingering of the questions got under my skin a bit, since from my point of view I'm working harder on this case than anybody.

On what case are you working and how are you working harder on it than everyone?

insane wall of text

Why was that wall necessary?

Reaction I would expect from town is not that defensive, really not anything along these lines. I've found GM's case to be very weak so far and you could just have called him out for that, instead of defending yourself in such a hopeless way.

[TierShift]

Not a single post in 11 hours...

Why do mala and mollie read huntress as town, while she only has a shocking 7 posts?

[TierShift]

What conclusions do you draw from all that? It looks like a classic case of IIoA (Information Instead of Analysis).

More comments on that and the other stuff later but for now:

Vote: Neater Plastic

I'm working on your previous post and will be doing ISOs after, but to answer that simply and currently: nothing yet on Mala, vague badfeels on Huntress but nothing concrete, I don't think.

Why?

Are those analyses still coming?

[TierShift]

Sure, you said "better", not "correct", but if you didn't actually mean that it was correct, what other options are there?

I don't want to claim anything that could be used against me.

You don't want to claim anything that can be used against you...what could we use against you? Oh wait I know, your lack of posting anything barely debatable! Aside from that, your lack of commitment, content and activity is not doing you any favors, how are you gonna change that?

@Rothwell: Besides the votes on you, there's currently a vote on myself and a vote on NeaterPlastic. Do either of us seem scummy to you? If you had to lynch someone today, who would it be and why?

You.

When you're finally answering a question, you aren't. Great.

[TierShift]

Malakittens, even though you have the highest post count of all, I find it hard to grasp anything 'special' from the posts, you seem to be trying to be too 'correct', if you know what I mean. It's kind of hard to explain, it's just nagging me.

I would love to see you do an ISO on everyone, so I can really see what you are thinking about the players in this game. Would you do that?

[TierShift]

Skip to next vote count.

Yeah, but you're talking about an hour or two hours worth of work and doing it on my phone.

Ask me a spefic question on any player and ill answer it, but no sorry I won't go down ISO to ISO on each player.

Heh, sorry, I don't really know what's reasonable to ask from other players...can you perhaps do a list of who you read as town and who as scum with a little explanation? (Lol is that reasonable to ask?)

@All experienced players: how do you feel about lynching lurkers? GM made fun of me for saying LaL, so that got me really wondering. This his how I feel about it: on the one hand, lynching them doesn't give much information about the rest of the players, but neither does having them in the game. On the other hand, especially if they are scum, lynching other players won't give information about them. Do you think policy lynching is wrong?

@NP: what do you think of GM attacking ED? Do you think ED is scummy? Would you vote for him?

[TierShift]

Ohmylord is everyone still playing this game? I'm still waiting for mala, NP (prod?) and goodmorning to answer my questions...

Is cobbz getting replaced?

Does anyone wanna comment on the inactivity?

[TierShift]

I've been doing some reading today and I stumbled upon a game that really opened my eyes. I would recommend reading it to all the newbs (and even experienced players), it was a game that comprised multiple lylo situations, http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=27133
Now I know at least a tad better how to scumhunt...so answering emeraldemon, I'll try to do some ISO's in a bit.

@Gm: you were gonna do a case on emeraldemon...

[TierShift]

Okay I ISO'd everyone, here are my reads:

Huntress: town
As mollie said earlier, she is posting actually useful stuff, trying to find scum. I'd love some more input from her, though.

Neater Plastic: town
Actually wants to contribute, a decent attempt and where he is failing it can be contributed to being new. Huntress did point out the IIoA he made somewhere, but he was honest about it, I believe it to be an honest mistake.

Rothwell-null/pls replace. Unreadable.

D_cobbz-same as Rothwell

Emeraldemon: null
Active and eager to participate but generating little real content or asking any penetrating questions. I still think that wall in response to GM was really bad. Overall, when defending yourself, you are deflecting more than anything else.

Mala: slight scum
Her posts are really contentless, stating the obvious or helping a newbie. She isn't really scumhunting, only has two reads, huntress as town and GM as possible scum, one of them kinda easy to see, the other not backed up with decent arguments. I do like her reaction to GM's accusation of emeraldemon.

GM: null
Tries to get discussion starting, but this might be IC business, as might most of her posts. I don't like post 46 or 74. I do wanna hear about the emeraldemon case before forming my standing point.

Mollie: town
Someone with a complete town mindset, trying to scumhunt from the beginning. It seems as though her dedication to the game is lacking, but the mindset is there.

Could someone comment on my process of scumhunting, not as in are the reads themselves correct, but as in is the manner I am forming an opinion on someone a good one?

[TierShift]

Heh, forgot something.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: malakittens

[TierShift]

Okay mala, so mollie has a strong scum game (those games were really good), I'll keep an eye on her...
What really is the intent of post 190, if i may ask?

Also can someone explain how to link to single posts?

[TierShift]

Skip to next vote count.

Skip to some other vote count after that.

fos tier

cos those scum games sucked, I replaced out of 1 and was lynched in another cos I told a lie and forgot about it like 20 minutes after I told it.

Lol i only read like halfway through both of them.
Then what was mala's point with all that meta crap?

Did NP receive a prod and is cobbz getting replaced?

[TierShift]

Yay, finally a replacement! And one who shares my reads
I'm also thinking that scum might be in IC and SE's, newbies haven't been all that scummy. It's only rothwell who has been acting so, well...blank.

My top scumreads are mala and gm, mala for reasons mentioned before (and hereafter), and gm for just only doing that case on emeraldemon (which still feels a tad off), not fulfilling her promise to do active scumhunting later in the day. Also backed down on the further ED case that she promised. I'd be fine with lynching either of them. I've abandoned my earlier views that rothwell might be a good lynch candidate, lynching him would not give us ANY information about the game.

I think it's time for the other newbies to take a stand on who they want lynched.

[TierShift]

The odds are we can have two newbies as scum. I'm not sure how you are getting IC/SE combo. We could also have Se/Se combo for scum. Every single one is pausible. Nati when you get the chance explain, thanks!

Nati NEVER said IC/SE combo, he said that the scum was within the IC/SE. This is either a HUGE scumslip, telling us you are scum with gm, or an honest reading mistake. Further reinforcing my view of this being a scumslip, is the defensive tone of this part of the post. Comments on this, anyone?

@preedit:

.... Yet you were sorta town reading me? If I'm town/huntress is town and you are looking at a Se/IC combo that means scum would be you and GM.

Where is he townreading you? He's voting you ffs.

The possible scumteams I have in mind atm are:
Gm and mala-both seem most scummy to me, possible scumslip above.
Gm and ed-I'm still wondering why ed townread gm so heavily, the gm case that felt so odd might have been bussing, i have no idea why she would do that, but it would explain the odd feeling i have about it. (Not saying it's a bad case per se, but gm quickly backed off after ed stopped townreading her so extremely)

[TierShift]

Sorry read that last part wrong i thought you were still responding to nati.

In my book, a / means or not and. So that means 2 scum in SE or IC...
How did others read that?

Preedit
Ed read it same way i did

[TierShift]

Look, what I think you need to do when hunting for scum is not very much looking at posts themselves, as in actual phrasings, more looking to intentions behind the posting, eg. is someone scumhunting/confusing town in general etc. Rothwell is most of all just lurking. I'm not gonna deny post 166 is somewhat scummy and I think no one else is gonna deny that for that matter.

He could definitely be scum, but really, lynching him is not giving is any more info to work with on day 2. The most important function of day 1 lynch (correct me if i'm mistaken) is to gather information. This means that most likely we WILL be having a mislynch, but it's better to have an information-handing mislynch than a blank one.

To conclude, I think we should lynch lurkers only if they are basically confscum. Look to huntress's and gm's earlier explanations to me about lynching all lurkers.

Preedit: gonna look into it gm, sry shoulda done when you asked first time

[TierShift]

I'm working on your previous post and will be doing ISOs after, but to answer that simply and currently: nothing yet on Mala, vague badfeels on Huntress but nothing concrete, I don't think.

Why?

I need to work on reading. Maybe you weren't doing a full-fletched case, but you implied you would be breaking down ed's defense to your accusation. I pointed this out earlier and you said you would be postponing the ISO's to do the reaction first, but currently you haven't done either.

[TierShift]

I think the time is now to really vote. It's gonna be pretty hard to gather 5 votes...

ED, nati is probably not receiving a lynch majority, could you please vote someone you think can actually receive 5 votes? I'm gonna use a lame appeal to authority argument here, but all the experienced players are on mala or gm except for themselves. I think it's gonna be between them two either way. Even if you think both are town, better a mislynch than no lynch.

Also welcome yiley, hope you catch up soon.

[TierShift]

Stating intent to hammer

Because, as I've said before, I'm fine with either a mala or a gm lynch. The gm train is taking off, the mala one isn't.

It's sad that gm probably doesnt have time to respond/claim. Gm, you have 24 hours before I hammer.

[TierShift]

I agree, huntress. I've said before that I didn't like the interactions between them and that they were a possible scumteam. Possibility is only getting bigger.

If gm flips scum, I guess we have our new lynch candidate. If, however, she flips town, I'm not so sure about ED.
Anyway, we'll have certainty about that in 24 hours so we can postpone our discussion a bit.

[TierShift]

rly omg don't even know what to say

[TierShift]

gm better be scum otherwise I have so many people I reaaaaally want to lynch

@Rothwell: there is a definitive chance gm would have been able to come on before deadline, v/la means less active/prolly not able to answer every post, not living in a cave without internet.

@Yiley: lol it's just rothwell, not everyone.

[TierShift]

Emerald, every IC makes a post like that, I think they have it somewhere, ready to be copypasted. Not something alignment-indicative.
About rothwell, i'm still not sure about him, although I don't think we can get around lynching him and I'd be fine with it, he's messing up the game.

[TierShift]

Oh yeah ed that's true.

Mala, you'd rather no lynch than lynch a (scummy) player that isn't able to claim?

[TierShift]

I blame being slightly inebriated at the time of my last posts. I was giggling like a schoolgirl when I made them & at the reactions.

Doesn't justify it though and I fully accept a lynch.

So looks like we have a doc? Or did mafia no kill for some reason?
But I think I will be going to
VOTE: rothwell

Doesn't have to be a doc. Could've been roleblocked.

This is your first post that makes some sense (It's AtE yeah but it makes sense)...why would you start making sense now and not before? You'd only do that after you hammered just to defend yourself. I'm not buying the sudden change.

Nor am I voting yet, I don't want a quicklynch and we'll prolly end up lynching you anyway.

[TierShift]

Yeah..some explanation for the last 2 posts would be nice.

Does anyone still have anything to say about the d1 lynch? And I suppose we shouldn't talk too much about the night since it might compromise PR's?

[TierShift]

why is emerald such a good lynch candidate?

[TierShift]

Welp I got what I wanted.

VOTE: Yiley

Thinking Malakittens/Yiley at the moment.

Are those just the two most scummy players to you, or is this an associative tell?

Mollie, what do you think of yiley?

Question to experienced players: do we just let newbs get away with dumb quickhammers?

[TierShift]

what do you think of nasty rash trying to find a counterwagon?

lol yeah would be nice if they'd give some kind of explanation.

[TierShift]

Idgi is rothwell trying to claim? What the hell did these posts even mean?

[TierShift]

What you are missing is that scum shouldn't claim unless they are sure town won't tell it's a false claim. Losing 1 town (even a PR) and losing 1 scum is superbeneficial to town.

I don't know if you gave the setup a good look, the matrix 6 thingy excludes certain roles if others are present (eg never a cop AND a jailkeeper). Scum has no idea what the setup is now, all options 2-5 are possible if they sent in a kill. If scum would now claim BP and there is a doc, you can be damn sure that the BP claim will be lynched at some point in time. I think no one is gonna claim unless specifically asked to do so.

[TierShift]

Also emerald stop doing those associative tells on me they really suck. 188 and 221 both give reads omg tell me whats so scummy.

And how in the world are you gonna find out if rothwell has a PR?

[TierShift]

the cog-dis of how you went from a dewey-eyed newb to these 2 posts is disturbing

Ye I spend too much time on mafia that's why :/

Mala has been acting supertown lately, I'm back on a null read.

Huntress, what happened with rothwell being your 3rd/4th scumread?

VOTE: rothwell

[TierShift]

Why don't you make a case on nati instead of telling us to vote nati over roth based on thin air?

[TierShift]

Ok my mind was messed up I thought you had written different things. I do think your posting lately has been more townish, since it feels more genuine and helpful towards the scumhunt, instead of helpful just by explaining like you did before.

[TierShift]

Skip to next vote count.

CAN SOMEONE FINALLY EXPLAIN THE NATI READS BEFORE ASKING COUNTERQUESTIONS?

[TierShift]

Welp I got what I wanted.

VOTE: Yiley

Thinking Malakittens/Yiley at the moment.

Are those just the two most scummy players to you, or is this an associative tell?

[TierShift]

I am back to thinking you are scum. tbh I don't remember why I thought that I will to do a reread.

This is the last time you talked about mala and you said she could be scum?

Your explanation of your read was fine, if you'd do one fpr your earlier vote on ED I'd be super happy.

I've done some rereading on nati and well, he's not been particularly helpful. 221 and 285 don't match up, that was one shitty reaction test, what reaction are you hoping to get by voting your #1 townread? Most jumping to the eye is the insisting on that mala is scum, with only this comparison to his own meta?

I'm considering a rothwell/nati scumteam. Their interactions from 341 to 348 seem forced and perhaps prepared. 341 was the first time rothwell seemed to be sure about something, which is weird and inconsistent.

Mollie, comments on 341-348 pls.

[TierShift]

I mean mollie's reaction will always be like: wtf are u doing?

[TierShift]

Would null/slightly scummy do?

[TierShift]

Well mala I don't agree. Before you weren't to the point and now you are. And I like 280, for instance.

[TierShift]

@ mala

did you jail me?

Why just why? If mala says no you haven't gotten any further, if mala says yes you know who will be nk'd.
Why rolefishing d2?

Would null/slightly scummy do?

If we lynched Rothwell and he flipped town, how would that affect your read on Nat?

Not much, honestly. I'd have to reread on rothwell's interactions.

[TierShift]

Not much, honestly. I'd have to reread on rothwell's interactions.

Did you mean Nat rather than Rothwell here? I'm puzzled as to how a town Rothwell's interactions would affect your read on Nat.


Strange things happen while hanging about waiting. Like I'm beginning to wonder if there really was something in my original impression of a link between Tier and DC.

I misread lol thought you said scum.

I don't think a town rothwell would change my reads that much either.

[TierShift]

Also why is everyone totally ignoring my questions

[TierShift]

And huntress I feel offended by you thinking I would be so bad as scum...

[TierShift]

I mean it should depending on the wagon. To keep one reads solid and not interchangeable is a crime.

Oh preedit:

I don't like that post either..

In fact, i really dont like it.

VOTE: tiershirt

ps do you have any completed scum games?

I meant that just my read on nati wouldn't change all that much with a roth town flip, not every read has to change with every flip.

And well sorry for the distancing but I was just letting my heart speak.

No completed scum games. One town game.

Tiershirt beats the current timeshift as best wrong spelling of my nick. Gratz.

[TierShift]

it is d2 with 8 players, town is a bit ahead. it wouldn't be the worst strategy in the world and given this playerlist mebbe not a bad idea. there are going to be at least 2 town between me/you/nasty/huntress. <------ I like the odds.

your pushes are weird and seem forced so you are freaking me out.

@ teir

:/ I did answer you.

Mollie can you explain the first part of this further, I am not understanding.

As for the questions, I have not received answer as to why the ED votes from both you AND huntress and then I have a question for nati about the scumreads that he isn't answering.


I super duper agree with huntress, that linked game opened my eyes. Look at this post here and see how it doesn't match up with his play.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: yiley

[TierShift]

Emerald yiley is lurking harder than rothwell...
I didn't read the links you posted. You basically gave us 2 games in which he played badly to back up nothing, just out of the blue. It doesn't make me wanna read those games.
As well as that. I wasn't really thinking that yiley was lurking back then, it had only been a few days.
So if you want people to read all that, you gotta give them motivation to do so.

I don't see how yiley trying to catch scum in the previous games is equal to yiley saying 'catching up' all the time...

There's no shame in bussing your partner.

[TierShift]

I'm sorry to see you go, mollie...

@mod: can we get some deadline extension, perhaps?

@mala: what do you think about yiley's lurking?

[TierShift]

Yeah, about that: you scumread me based on 2 posts after having townread me all game. Am I missing something?

You're not answering the question.

[TierShift]

I welcome a fellow Dutchman!

Rothwell didn't quickhammer scumteam found.

Ok that was a joke, but I find it alarming that rothwell is emphasizing that he won't hammer. Why?

[TierShift]

I wasn't expecting you to, I was making a joke about how you quivkhammered day 1, if you quickhammered again you would have been lynched d3 beyond any doubt.

So you are saying that you emphasized it because we all think you are the worst player ever?

[TierShift]

Yiley your last post is bad, what are you trying to achieve with 'possible eexperience'?

Mala/emerald please state intent because it's time for yiley to claim.

[TierShift]

Yiley your last post is bad, what are you trying to achieve with 'possible eexperience'?

Mala/emerald please state intent because it's time for yiley to claim.

Why are you saying this?
Maybe I'm not ready to hammer yet.

Ugh I rather lynch you over him, I really really rather would

I'm saying that because deadline is close. If anyone would want to get something else rolling based on the claim, they would have a small opportunity window to do so. But I guess that's not happening with the VT claim now.

Why don't you stop being lazy and make some decent arguments against me if you want me lynched so badly?

I'd be so sad if we have a mala/yiley scumteam and rothwell refuses to hammer and emerald won't be online before deadline...

[TierShift]

Well I was thinking that perhaps ED wouldn't come on before deadline because he hasn't been on for 2 days now. Perhaps he is hiding his online status but if he is doing that purposely it means he's scum and he won't hammer yiley either.

Can someone tell me what a hyphen means after 'last visited'on someone's profile? Does that mean they are online or that they have hidden their last online status?

[TierShift]

If yiley is scum mala's gotta be town.

[TierShift]

Why's that?

[TierShift]

360 is offensive not defensive?

[TierShift]

I agree with you nati. BP and doc should 100% claim unless I'm missing something.

I think emerald is the remaining scum.
I've got a few independent arguments for that. I'll start off with the weakest, then put some stronger arguments.
1. Emerald was conveniently away during the yiley hammer time.
2. Night kill huntress was firmly believing that emerald was the remaining scum, wouldn't it be nice for emerald to have her out of the way?
3. I know what my plan as scum would be d2 (assuming that rothwell isn't scum) and that's to get rothwell lynched. Which emerald's (and yiley's btw) only intent was. He was sticking to the plan too much, however, and that shows.
4. Defending of yiley in many situations, instances that I will collect for you in a next post.

I'm pretty sure there are more arguments which I forgot.

Other than arguments for emerald being scum, I have arguments for other players being town.
Nati: started the yiley wagon while he could have pushed for rothwell
Mindgamer: on yiley wagon (not early but eh) and mollie was town as hell
Mala: had a fucking valid excuse for not having to hammer and still did.
Rothwell: is just stupid...my backup scumread but I honestly don't think he is.

I haven't done too much rereading on Neater Plastic/yiley but if something other than interactions with emerald jump to the eye I'll let you know.

[TierShift]

Forgot
VOTE: emeraldemon

[TierShift]

Mod, otter meat is like $70/kg everywhere so I'll take you up on that offer.

Hmm...fresh otter meat.

[TierShift]

Stuff that pings:

Malakittens thinks Huntress is town, or at least claims to. At the start, emeraldemon and I thought she was contributing nothing while pretending to actually contribute something, but since then she has stopped acting like that so much.

NP is using emerald to bolster his own point against me here, but I don't think emerald really said that.

Trying to keep things as clear as possible: I assume NP was talking about my post here. I did say in this post "huntress may just want to get a wagon rolling and doesn't really care which ... [which] actually feels a bit scummy to me." regarding the vote on Tiershift. That was very early, my first non-RVS post, and I meant exactly what I said: it felt a bit scummy to me. Nothing more, nothing less.

Lurker, lurker, lurker. Wherever you look, that's what Rothwell's being called, because we have little else to see about him. He has received many pressure votes. Some people have shown that they believe in the possibility of Rothwell being a lost newbie as he claims, but suspicion against him is growing.

This looks like NP is laying the foundations for a future vote on Rothwell despite having nothing on him but inactivity.

This is the big question for me right now.
@Rothwell, please understand. Inactivity is one thing, but you're genuinely not helping town, and when people try to prod you into activity your responses feel hostile. If you want town to win, please try to help town win. Even a post like "sorry guys, I'm not as into this as I thought I would be" would help me a lot in trying to get where your coming from.

@huntress: can I take from this post that you don't think rothwell is scummy?

First part wasn't necessary at all, second part is directing attention away from NP and to rothwell.

Huntress's case against neater plastic actually makes some sense to me, I think I'm on the "huntress is town" wagon [are there only scumwagons, or are there townwagons also?]. Huntress, I'd love to get your reads on other players, especially rothwell and malakittens.

Updated reads:
TOWN
Huntress
goodmorning
Malakittens
pirate mollie
Neater Plastic
TierShift
D_Cobbz
Rothwell
SCUM

Anyone who is around but doesn't know what to post about, I am around. Pick on my reads! Ask me what's up! Let's get this thing rolling again!

You say that Huntress's case on NP makes sense without actually doing anything witht that information. You just seem to be agreeing for the agreeing and nothing more. I also notice how NP/yiley stay in place 4/5 of your reads list all the time.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31157
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=32444

So it looks like Yiley has two finished games, 1429 and 1446. I read over both of them and he was... bad. Sorry bro, I am newb also, but your play is not exactly inspiring.

[offtopic - Are non-newbie games more active than newbies? I've only read newbie games so far, and they typically involve 4+ replacements and lots of prodding.]

Yiley you said in 1446 that you wanted to trust your gut since it's usually right. What is your gut telling you? You said you would post reads earlier but then never did. Can I get a read list from you?

Your interaction with yiley has been of this caliber, extensively commenting about him but never really engaging. What are you trying to say with: "yiley has played badly?" You use it to prove nothing.

So you think nati's vote on yiley is a bus attempt? Or buddying huntress maybe?

Why'd you say a vote on yiley is a fucking bus attempt. Especially if it's the first vote on a player. Would make sense if you'd known yiley was scum.

Re: yiley. What little he's posted is consistent with his towngame as I've seen it, but that isn't saying much (and I don't have any scumgames from him). In those town games he didn't post very much and was usually pretty wishy-washy. I could see the things you were seeing in NP: trying to be conciliatory or appeasing, information instead of analysis. You'd be a better judge than me how strong those are as scum tells. If it comes down to it I could see voting yiley, but I'm really hoping for less lurking and more content to judge by.

How is what he posted consistent with his townplay, in the sense that he played badly (which I don't agree he did in his towngames) or what? I don't see anything that's the same.
The most preposterous thing about this is that you have picked on rothwell for being inactive from page 2 on and now yiley is inactive and you say "oh well, perhaps he should post more". Doesn't make sense. You also miss that yiley is lurking harder than rothwell was.

Well, I picked a bad weekend to be away from this game I guess. If yiley flips town I think I wanna lynch tier tomorrow.

Really? Some cheap shot to take some townie points?

I'm still unhappy with the way you made the yiley vote decision, although maybe I should wait for the flip to make up my mind. Also your overall tone is pretty defensive whenever someone I you about anything (like 360). I dunno, if I'm wrong about yiley I could be wrong about a lot of things.

You give shit reasoning, the only reason I see for wanting to lynch me is because mala already said she would want to. The last sentence is showing that he doesn't want to take responsability for a me mislynch.

Emerald is engaging with a lot of people but not with yiley and that for someone who seems to be extremely keen on lynching lurkers. Scum.
So yeah, all sheep.

[TierShift]

Don't make me feel insecure, you douchebag :'(

Nah, got any actual comments?

[TierShift]

What argument are you talking about?

[TierShift]

Emerald, you aren't trying to defend yourself...
Why don't you give your opinion on the 4 points i mentioned in 484? Do you think they are right? Do you think we should lynch you? If no to the last question, defend yourself.

Emerald, throw out your reads, please.

[TierShift]

Thinking yiley was town isn't scummy btw as long as you have a good explanation for it. Do give it please.

[TierShift]

Skip to next vote count.

Skip to the next next vote count, which is not the next one but the next one after that.

@emerald: There is just one scum alive, do you think it's me or do you think it's rothwell? Why do you think I'm scum? Because I was defensive once?What do you think about nat/mala?

@Mindgamer: I don't really see how the fact that you weren't killed tonight makes you sure that rothwell isn't scum. Huntress was townread even more universally AND was convincing enough to get scum lynched. I would say Huntress was more dangerous to anyone than you.

[TierShift]

@Emerald: all right!
UNVOTE: emerald
Lemme explain: I made that case on you, because at the time I thought you were scummy. Directly after I posted it, I reread and I thought "wow, this is one weak case -_-". And I truly didn't have more to attack you with. So I thought: "let's leave it as a reaction test", which you passed. You invalidated all points without deflecting, good job.

I still want to hear why exactly you townread yiley and what logic there was to the last 2 posts before night 2. Also, if you have decent arguments as to why I would be scum, I'd love to hear them.

Rothwell needs to get his ass in here, but as I'm not truly convinced he's scum, I'll remove my blinkers and look for scum on the yiley wagon. I'll point out stuff that bugs me.

Mindgamer, you keep pointing out that you replaced into an obvtown slot. Stop it, please, saying that is not gonna be helpful.

Mala, I'm absolutely digusted by your last post. I don't like how you call out emerald for speculating PR's, while completely disregarding anything else that he's said.

Then you point out that rothwell and emerald share a refusal to lynch yiley....and it just feels fake. You don't actually seem annoyed by it or see it as scummy, but then I feel like you are secretly using it to bolster your propaganda of an emerald or rothwell lynch.

Afterwards, you are wondering why

natirasha

wasn't the NK and say it makes him suspicious, while you just called out mindgamer for being fake about how he didn't get NK'd instead of huntress and you implied that huntress was the finest NK. And she was, because her reads were spot-on, she was convincing and there was no way huntress would be mislynched. So your point is contradictory and invalid.

I don't like that you say that you support rothwell and enerald lynches today, while what you are really trying to do is throwing out suspicion of nati, someone you have been pushing for all game but now don't support a lynch of. Me=puzzled.

VOTE: malakittens

L-1

Rothwell don't you ****ing dare to ****ing quickhammer....

[TierShift]

Yay
But who the fuck would try to kill rothwell N1?????

[TierShift]

It's more because I figured that the NK would have been either first on the wagon or at least off the wagon. Which most likely makes the scum either {Nati/Tier}. Learned this from jiffy a while back and I use it every now and then.

I don't get it. Can you explain?

[TierShift]

Wow emerald, your posts get solider and solider....

I agree that I basically just sheeped huntress on yiley, yes. I'm also defensive when someone accuses me, but I wouldn't say that's an indication of alignment; it might be in other people's play, but in my play it's not. I always defend myself when attacked.
I'm wondering if the fact that I sheeped someone on scum is clearly making me scum....have you got more to attack me with?

And please don't tell me that my vote on mala is bad because she is scumreading me, your vote on me is equally bad in that perspective.

P-edit: looking forward to that VCA

[TierShift]

Ftr I think that scum is in mala/nat with a slight lean on the former.

[TierShift]

Oh and emerald your walls aren't bad, you post your thoughts in an organized way which is nice.

I still want to know why yiley was town according to you.

[TierShift]

Tier you been so 'umg' roth is going to lolhammer, but you put me at L-1 why aren't you afraid of him lolhammering this day phrase? I also noted that both you and Yiley used a similar defense when questioned. Also is it just the fact my post "sucked" because I recall you townreading me Day 2 for 'weak reasons', but quick to call me town after I hammered Yiley, but then after seeing two votes on me you were like your posts were bad "vote".

I'm always a little quick to out my thoughts and it very often comes back to bite me in the arse. I thought you had a valid reason not to hammer...and that was the only reason for which I thought that you had to be town. Stupid.
I'm not afraid of rothwell quickhammering this time, because he has showed now to have at least a little understanding of the game. I also thought that if he would hammer it would show his alignment this time but well now he has claimed BP and all.

So I use the same defense as yiley? Puh-lease. What a groundless accusation.

Tier why didn't complain when Mindgamer first replaced into the game and said I'm replacing into an obv town slot. He has said it pretty much every post since then.

Is this a question? In case it is, I think that you are allowed to say that once but no need to say it 3 times.

Newbie question:
Umm I can't say I've ever seen a VCA before but isn't the purpose to well...analyze it? Are you gonna use it to prove some point? I'm genuinely wondering what the point of that VCA was.

[TierShift]

Well mala if you want to explain how my defense is similar to yiley's feel free to do so.

I'm wondering if I should still ask questions to rothwell for he is conftown and doesn't seem to want to participate.....well, if you've got anything to share please do so roth.

[TierShift]

I don't have any scum experience but what I said is that I wouldn't suck so badly if I were scum.

[TierShift]

Ugh well there isn't much more I can say about that. Take it as you will.

[TierShift]

Emerald can you elaborate on your nat read?
You say that you don't like his posting and that he isn't contributing.
Then you say that mala is null.
How is mala a bigger scumread than nat?
Could you see yourself lynching nat at any point in time?

[TierShift]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: natirasha

[TierShift]

Your AtE is so strong wow

[TierShift]

Not wanting town to win is. Which you are implying you do.

[TierShift]

*do not (want town to win)

[TierShift]

Super great OMGUS to back up your lack of reasoning.

[TierShift]

Merry christmas!
cmon guys get your asses in here and vote nat

[TierShift]

Hammer time
VOTE: natirasha

[TierShift]

It was pathetic I know

Can you bring up points why you are town?

[TierShift]

Idk maybe to have something that is townish while not having to try really hard to look townish.

I'm saying that if he hadn't done that he would have been lynched by now for lacking town motivation. Maybe he knew.
Yiley would have probably lynched at some point in time anyway.

[TierShift]

I'm really tied between mala and nat, now even more so (thanks emerald).

I have a proposal but it only works if everyone townreads me.
We can lynch one of nat/mala today and the other tomorrow.
Emerald if you still think I might be scum it won't work, so tell me if you do.
Rothwell/mindgamer what do you say?

[TierShift]

Well don't we read everyone else as town?

[TierShift]

Skip to next vote count.

Oh look, another one of those delightful vote counts!

But the way you phrase it makes me see it as a very bad plan. Nvm I retract it.

[TierShift]

Why, is my wagon deflating?

[TierShift]

RL werewolf but that wasn't very in-depth. It basically meant me always getting lynched day 1 or day 2 because 'he knows the game he's dangerous'.
Why do you ask?

[TierShift]

Rothwell are you gonna vote now?

[TierShift]

You shouldn't be afraid to hammer, but you should state intent to hammer if you are going to. Then the person in question can claim (well yeah vt anyways) and give final thoughts or reasons not to vote him. Afterwards you can hammer.
Mala vote isn't a hammer btw.

[TierShift]

UNVOTE: nati
VOTE: malakittens
That last post convinced me.

Nope I did some rereading and all I got from mala was lack of scumhunting and the freaking scummy 'i'm okay with a yiley lynch too'.

Idk why I scumtead nat as heavily as mala but still my second pick. His yiley vote was lots better than mala's.

[TierShift]

Rothwell you may now state intent to hammer

[TierShift]

Mala, rothwell is actually conftown since there's no doc/BP CC.

ED, roth said that he was too scared to vote so I just wanted him to feel comfortable voting (and I'd rather have him vote for my suspect than anyone else, yes)

[TierShift]

Mindgamer are you saying you just forgot that you are the 1-shot BP?

About the 180 I made...I thought at the time that she vould have not hammered because she could have been 'offline' due to sickness. But you guys told me that's not a towntell...

[TierShift]

I agree with nat.

Anyway I'm just plain VT

P-edit: if mindgamer is scum mollie deserves an award...

[TierShift]

Scum should know the setup.
Mala's being oblivious while nat is not and I think it's on purpose.

Mala you never really felt like a paranoid townie and you try to be considered that way now.
Pretty confident now that you're scum.

Unless anyone is gonna CC, in that case roth is scum so all check PM's again.

[TierShift]

Happy new year to all europeans and in a few hours to those muricans

[TierShift]

Deadline in 26 hours, don't forget.

[TierShift]

Is that a scumclaim?

[TierShift]

Cool

I was getting a little paranoid about mindgamer. Now that that is out of the way, I feel safe to

VOTE: nati

It's mylo, mislynch and lose, but I really see no use in no lynching because he will just keep me alive.

I know why mindgamer is dead, it's because mindgamer thought nati to be scum and I suppose nati thinks you're more easily fooled into voting town.

Rothwell and emerald, think very well about this and before you vote, ask us questions to respond to and out your thought processes.

As for now, I'd like to say: look at my scumhunting process and look at nati's. There really is a huge difference there.

[TierShift]

Oh and emerald/rothwell could you please tell me who you are leaning to vote for?

[TierShift]

Tell me how that wasn't an appeal. It's cool if you don't want to play, but don't come here and play and then use your unhelpfulness as a defense.

You haven't contributed much and it is weak to write that off as unhelpfulness.

[TierShift]

I was pushing for a mala hammer, because it was fairly obvious that nothing else than a mala/nati lynch would be reached that day. It was dragging andnot moving forward. Also, I tend to heavily push for scumreads, why's it scummy?

I'm not really sure what you'll find in Nati's past games, but sure go do that. If you also want a game of mine, I suggest you read Micro 265, that's my only non-marathon finished town game IIRC.

I'm pretty sure this will be regarded as WIFOM, but I do want to get it out here. Not only mindgamer, but also mollie and huntress (I think) read me as town. From a scum me perspective, killing all the people who read me as town makes no sense, especially not last night, considering I could just have let mindgamer push for a nat lynch today and win.

[TierShift]

I would really advise against using cold meta to decide who's scum here. First, it's gonna take ages and second, when you play with someone it's really different than when you just read up on that person.
It's most likely wasting your time. I think you should look in-thread and vote from there.

[TierShift]

So....reread, post your considerations, ask us questions...or you're never gonna find this out

[TierShift]

I thought nati was just fucking lazy and that that was why he didn't contribute. Mala seemed more likely to be scum at the time. I could see at least some town motivation in nati's posts but hardly any in mala's.

Ftr I think that that post 510 shows how nati regarded me as town there (he thought my case on you was good and that you were scum). He was very quick to call me scum afterwards.
He needed to mislynch two people at that point and he was first thinking about you+mala and afterwards he switched to me+mala. Reread and think about it.

[TierShift]

Read nati's iso and see the quick change between posts 510-550. Prolly the best evidence of nat being scum.

[TierShift]

Nat reasons you gave to suspect me were:
Votecounts
'Even worse than mala'

Now to add to that we have
I called you out on your AtE

Scumtell much?

Ed, anyone could do a post like 544, really. It's pretty damn easy to fake.

[TierShift]

I actually got a strong reason why I can't be scum and why nat is. I've basically spread these out throughout the previous posts but I think I can formulate them clearly now.

If I were scum, I'd have won by now (or waiting for roth to hammer). Leaving mindgamer alive and just letting him vote his scumread (nat) would seal the game with a scum (me in this case) victory.

If I had almost a guaranteed win, would I ever, ever, let it come to this coinflip by killing mindgamer? Nope, I'd kill emeraldemon. Always.

I cannot be scum because I'd have chosen an obviously suboptimal play by far. I'd have won. Now I'd probably lose because ED has been scumreading me stronger than nat for the last days.

Then onto why Nat is scum. He needed two more mislynches to achieve his wincon. It is so very obvious that he's just looking for a second scumread to push without actually having reasons. First he was considering ED to be his second scunread (after mala), then he chose me for no reason at all. Probably just because mala was scumreading me at that point. He just needed to get his scumread out so he could later push against it. If you look back at his posts, you see that he's pushing me as much as mala, but only providing reasons why others should vote for mala, not for me. He seems to think mala is scum but I'm not but he's still pushing for me.

Emerald, if you're still leaning to vote me, please tell me how I can be scum with the NK and also explain to me how nat was not just looking for two scumreads to push.

Rothwell, you also play a big part in deciding here. What's your opinion?

[TierShift]

It's not strictly suboptimal play to bus your partner, no. Not as in, one option wins you the game, the other makes it a coinflip.

I'm not being opinion-cautious, I

know

who is scum, so there is no opinion anymore, just facts. I'm just to convince emerald and rothwell of these facts, so I'm asking if they follow. Conveying a message is different from just stating an opinion.

Why aren't you trying to discredit my arguments or building a case on me? Do you really have nothing?

[TierShift]

Mod can you prod or replace roth?

[TierShift]

Soo...are you actually gonna try and change their minds nati or can we just end it here?

[TierShift]

I'm just dodging a prod here.

I haven't got anything to add anymore.
Nati, anything, or can rothwell just hammer?

[TierShift]

Cool so nat stopped trying.

Hammer this poor scum already.

[TierShift]

Then be a man and hammer yourself so we can get this over with instead of having to wait for rothwell for a week to do the same thing.

[TierShift]

Yes and then they'll hammer.

[TierShift]

Great. You know nat is doing everything to make you feel good, right?

[TierShift]

Wow I keep my 0% town winrate intact also :/

Kudos to you ED, kudos.
That was a very, very good game.
You kept yourself out of the spotlights at all times.

Damn I wasn't really that convinced that Nati was scum but he had to be because you were town. So town.

[TierShift]

I could just

feel

the people in the dead thread getting more and more frustrated

Didn't town just suck.

@Huntress: maybe you want to consider obvtowning less when you have an investigative role...not criticism, just advice. Your reads were awesome.

[TierShift]

Why did I do NKA here for N3 but not N2 >>

Thanks for modding shadow it was excitingly wonderfully awesome!