Newbie 1562: Muses and Fates GAME OVER

[deathfisaro]

VOTE: Count Dooku
Using Sith mind control in a game is cheating.

[deathfisaro]

Guys I really think we should keep track of the vote count and declare L-1s.
I read Breeze's questions and didn't like them (not just the questions themselves but the order of questions), so I thought I'd put pressure by voting him. Then while I was re-reading page 1, vote count 1.2 was posted and I avoided hammering by a few minutes (part of it would have been my fault for not keeping count myself and relying on other players and mod to do it for others). So I'm saying we should start doing it.

TheBreeze

is at

L-1

, please declare intent to hammer and hear his defense first.

edit: became

L-2

while writing this message.

[deathfisaro]

I'm sorry to hear that Tammy, I'm praying for you.

[deathfisaro]

Yeah I'm keeping a voting pattern record and 12 is interesting. 2b1s made it feel like an RVS but if you take the context out it is an OMGUS. And at the same time he brings up hypocopping. The focus of that post is not very clear.
Also I don't like people voting vaguely. RVS, making a reasoned case against, and OMGUS should not be mixed or vague. He can lead a mislynch and later when accused defend self by claiming that it was just an RVS or OMGUS (whichever he chooses) and other players pushed the wagon. I think it's for our benefit to state potential appeal to such right now so there is little merit to actually use it in the future.

I have little experience in RVS as this is only my 2nd game online so I don't know what the common practice is. But I don't feel comfortable with RVS+OMGUS in one or making a big pile of RVS on one person.

[deathfisaro]

Wow so many posts in one day it's putting my reading skills to the test. I'm going to need to re-read the posts for nitpicking but first the big picture.
So right now the question is whether people find Count Dooku putting TheBreeze at L-1 without stating an honest mistake or a trap placed by scum. 24

When I first read 31 the first impression was honest mistake. Victor also missed the fact that TheBreeze was put on L-1 by Dooku although 27 directly (without quoting) deals with 24.
I also nearly missed it. So I thought Dooku himself could have missed it.

Of course the other side of the story would be it was a trap. Given how often random hammers take place in newbie games it could be as easy as setting up a trap and just hoping and waiting.
But Dooku in 31 unvoted

4 minutes

after TheBreeze's post. If it was a trap, Dooku could have pretended to be offline and keep hoping that someone will bite it. His posting hours indicate that if he didn't unvote immediately, he'd be safe to keep the trap for 18~20 more hours with zero suspicion (ISO him and notice the posting times) but he didn't.
The conclusion I derive from this action aligns with my initial feeling that Dooku simply made a mistake. So I withdraw my vote from Dooku. It was an RVS but with 2b1s making a case on Dooku for reasons opposite of mine I can't stay there.

UNVOTE:

Also 2birds1stone, ever since 41 you seem very certain about Count Dooku but I have to disagree because of what I just wrote.
I think that's more your personal style but your posts are very short, 1 line responses or a couple line posts. So I'd like to hear more from your side.
I find your attack on Dooku slightly scummy. Not enough to cast a vote on you yet but consider yourself voted. (I'm a little bit afraid of a newbie hammer happening, maybe because of the whole Dooku incident our awareness of it is perhaps over representative. Eventually have to take that small risk but I don't feel like it is now.)

[deathfisaro]

@Death
Could you answer Tammy's question?

I assume the question is:

What was it about the order of the questions you didn't like?

Regarding

1.) There are some interesting roles here. Which one did you want to get?
2.) What kind of onsite and/or offsite experience do you have with this game?
3.) Do you have a survivalist mindset when playing this type of game? If so, has that hurt your game in the past?
4.) On a scale of 1 to 10, how well can you lie? Why did you select that number?
5.) How often have you checked this thread in the past 14+ hours? Why did you decide not post anything else?

It didn't occur to me until firebound12 in 34 answered vigilante to the 1st question.
If you answer a role that's not in the Matrix6, obviously you have more experience than many of us (because the only roles I played offline with my friends were Cop and Doctor even in a large game like 14 players we'd only have 1 Cop and 1 Doc, and new players very likely will be limited to Matrix6). So it's logical to ask for mafia experience first, at least to me if I were to come up with a list of RQs.

So the impression I got was the 1st question was intended for role-fishing. But if you ask a single question about everyone's desired role that looks suspicious so he needed extra questions. 2nd question is a null question regarding mafia experience. And 3rd and 4th questions, combined with the 1st question feels like "now slip your role to me, and also tell me how likely you'll claim it under pressure, oh on top of that tell me how easy it would be to attack you for falseclaiming." And ends with the 5th question which is again, not alignment indicative.
Just like how good dessert ends a meal with good impressions, I feel like the 5th question ends RQs with a null vibe. But alternation of role fishing and null questions feel strategically placed. Maybe I'm thinking too hard but I recently watched the Liar Games (I remember someone here liked it too, don't remember who =P) and people can be manipulative in so many ways.

Overall, I'm sensing a "victim hunting" vibe to it more than scum hunting value. Do I find it scummy enough to vote Breeze? Probably not now because my eyes are on 2b1s at the moment. But these RQs are in the back of my mind.

The board is moving faster than I thought and I lack the concentration to read everything at the moment, but I'm busy whole day tomorrow. It's a dilemma. Maybe I'll check again at night.

[deathfisaro]

Ugh, don't make me actually read posts and form opinions.

Gut-town on VDA for reasons that are purely gut and probably wrong. Even so, I'll call it for now.

TheBreeze is an interesting player who probably should be talked about more. I'm honestly not sure what I think of the slot's reaction to being at L-1 (I'd call the reaction null-scum from a more experienced player), but it seems a relatively relaxed reaction for a newbie. Null, I guess.

On rereading,

TheBreeze

is at

L-1

, please declare intent to hammer and hear his defense first.

edit: became

L-2

while writing this message.

The assumption that someone might want to hammer and that we really needed to hear a defence first was concerning. Scum spooked by flashwagon on buddy is kinda how I read this, but I don't think that deathfisaro is scummy independently of interactions with TheBreeze. If the Breeze flips scum at any point, deathfisaro seems a solid buddy candidate.

Firebound is fluffposting a lot and it annoys me. Once we have a few scum lynches under our belt, I wouldn't mind her for PL.

I'm inclined to think that the players who ask me to stop tunnelling long enough to give other opinions are generally town, though I've not actually taken stats on those players' flips.

IC is walling. I don't have the attention span for that at the moment.

Um... so is it safe for me to summarize that you're not scumreading anyone besides Count Dooku?
I'm not convinced that Count Dooku is scum (I'd put him at mostly null with an honest mistake that can be viewed scummy). Can you respond to 77 and convince me because we have opposite views on the same event? You've been focusing solely on Dooku for 60% of the game now. Surely there has to be something more than "that guy put Breeze at L-1 and said nothing."

[deathfisaro]

I've been null reading Firebound (mainly due to inactivity) but after ISOing him I'm now reading him scumlean.
10: RVS
34: Answeing RQ (can be seen as fluff)
36: fluff
85: Un-RVS (although I appreciate you listening to reason). Between 37 and 84 the only thing you post is un-RVS. Really?
115: Contradiction ("not posting because can't help" -> "trying my best") and appeal to his supposedly inability to lie he wrote in 34 (and 4/10 isn't "abysmal" by anyone's standards...). Holding back vote until you're "certain" is not a good play. Vote is your tool, weapon and defense. You'll practically never be "certain" that someone's scum.
123 & 133: Contradiction. 123 says Dooku isn't scum because his unvote is not scum minded. 133 says he is certain (according to 115) that Dooku is scum. Huh?

Now, Firebound12, Dooku and 2b1s were the only ones with any sort of wagon going and you're just casually picking one that you previously defended. I find that extremely odd. I feel like your inactivity (or active lurking by fluffing) was your strategy and now it's getting busted.
How do I continue to null read you when you have a contradiction train going? Is pressure getting to you leading to misplays? Then you should stop the Town of Salem excuse and start trying your best because I'm putting more pressure on you by voting.

VOTE: firebound12

Firebound12

is at

L-1

, please declare intent to hammer and hear his defense first. With vote count just up here and enough discussion of Count Dooku incident, I don't think anyone will roflhammer and pretend innocent mistake.
I'm with Dooku and RayFrost that 2b1s is likely scum but since with recent firebound trainwreck and the fact that he is on Dooku's wagon along with 2b1s, it is enough for me to act.

@Dooku: I think he just quoted the sample role PMs. I don't think he's so flustered with 2 votes to the point of asking to be modkilled. But let's see if he will.

[deathfisaro]

A little bit of appendix for why I'm defending Count Dooku so much.
Reading the wiki, apparently it is important to learn how to town-read people too. In offline games I was solely interested in scumreads that I never developed that skill and newbie games are perfect places for me to learn that. So I'm going to practice that and since I've gone through the effort, I'll stand by my townreads.
And also RayFrost I'm townreading, I agree strongly with so many of his posts.

I don't ask the same in return. This is for personal growth in skill and not trying to form a gang and control the game.
I'm more confused as to why the criteria for townreading people is vastly different for each individual.

[deathfisaro]

Would I be correct in thinking that you are saying that you have a town read on count dooku in this post? Why did you feel the need to add the disclaimer that you aren't trying to control the game? What made you think you might have given that impression?

You are correct.
I was accused of buddying in this thread already. And in the first game I was in (I don't think I can talk about details because the game's still going although I died, but I'm sure you can easily find what thread that game is), someone accused me of manipulating new players by declaring my townreading to them. That person said I townread only newbies so that they'll townread me back. I don't think people are that easily controlled but if it ever happens, I wanted everyone to know that was not the motive behind my townreads.
When people accuse me of townreading people for ulterior motives, how can I not think that I have given that impression?

Is your vote on firebound primarily because his wagon is the one with the momentum currently or is it because you actually think he's scummier? If you think 2b1s is scummier but are voting the wagon with momentum, why? Wouldn't it be more in line with voting to lynch scum to vote the person you think is more likely to be scummy rather than the person getting the most pressure?

As I said, I was null reading firebound with the lurking (or active lurking) he didn't post enough to make out anything of. Until he posted a series of contradictions. I very much hate contradictions as I believe they are strong scumtells (search my posts for "contradiction"). So I'd call it only scumlean at this point due to lack of meaningful posts from his side. And since he started contradicting himself with just a couple votes, with enough pressure I'm sure he'll either break down and scumslip or produce something useful. You can't keep fluffing when you're at L-1.
You're also right that part of it is the momentum on Dooku's wagon. I don't think I can contribute to the protection of Count Dooku for voting for 2b1s. At the same time I have no interest in pushing a wagon of people I don't scumread. My choice was between 2b1s who I find scummy enough already but only has 1 vote, versus firebound who I can only scumlean because he continues to hide and has a wagon to match Dooku's.
Is it better play to let Dooku, who I townread, potentially keep collecting votes while I sit on 2b1s? I actually don't know. I don't know if I'll be able to learn it by the time I'm SE either. My gut is to try to protect everyone who I townread whether it's successful or not.

Also, the criteria for townreading people is different for each person because each person's context is different. For example, I haven't been under suspicion at all this game. So... you can't say you think I'm town based off of my reactions to people's suspicion of me. Meanwhile, count dooku was suspect: you can use this information to judge his alignment from his reactions to pressure. Add on to this that different people have different playstyles.

It'd be very strange if, for example, count dooku started to play like I did in being very aggressively questioning people / flat out calling people's behavior scummy without saying he thinks they're scummy, etc, etc. It wouldn't be something you could townread him for because it's so completely not in line with how he's shown that he behaves. It'd be confusing and shocking instead. But you town read me for it because it seems in line and consistent with how I act.

When I read your posts, I found similar thought process in reasoning. They make sense regardless of who you are as a player. Isee what you post and where you cast your vote logical. If I continue townreading you and you flip scum, that's my fault and I'd actually appreciate it because I'd have learned something in the process.

[deathfisaro]

TheFreeze pressured me to vote and there was 2 wagon going on. I decided to vote on one of them.

Man this game is rough.

I no longer scumlean on you. I scumread you now because of this post.

[deathfisaro]

-snip-
preemptively reacting.

Is it bad? I tend to think how people can exploit posts and state them before they even do it as a preventive measure.
Like calling out on people who sit on RVS or do a sneaky OMGUS and such in case of mislynch and the person just appealing to RVS/OMGUS/etc when they intended it to happen.
Or is "preemptively reacting" something different?

[deathfisaro]

@firebound12 I'm sorry for calling you firebrand if you don't like it that way, I (well many people on this site I assume) tend to shorten people's usernames for convenience sake.

But that's not the point. Well I think I was aggressive considering I'm a nice person =P, but I was afraid of a newbie-mistake-pretend hammer happening so I cast my suspicions verbally instead of pushing people to L-1. Now with everyone properly voting that excuse is no longer valid and is practically a scumclaim I feel safer with my votes.
I don't like how you're still beating around the bush though. Tell us what you're thinking, something that drives the game forward. Who are you scumreading and why, who are you townreading and why, etc. That's why I pushed you to L-1.
I can understand if you're like too busy to post anything, but instead you're posting things that don't contribute anything and even contradict yourself in a very short timespan.
I'm getting the vibe of "meh, gonna post fluff" "meh, gonna vote a random wagon" "meh, gonna unvote and hope for the best". I don't know how Town of Salem works but I don't think taking a stroll and expecting to come across a scumclaim isn't going to happen regardless of what site or what group of people you play with.

[deathfisaro]

Since you seems to hate contractions so much, what are your thoughts on my #88? As far as I am aware, you never acknowledged this post. I find it strange that you wouldn't put your 2 cents into a topic that you claim to "hate"

You quote him 2 posts out of order and out of context and call it a contradiction. Dooku made like a dozen posts between 24 and 74, and he re-wrote his expression in 74 in 76. He voted in 24 and unvoted in 31.
So you need to understand 24 in light of 31, and 74 with 76.
Your argument that it is a contradiction is at fault and I never received the impression that Dooku's posts nor actions contradict anything. I think it's more the case that the vote was on you and you got flustered.

[deathfisaro]

Skimread, nothing jumped out at me, but a few minor things to say.

Firebrand recently started playing a few cards that strengthen my scumread, and Tammy looks like a potential buddy after her most recent posts, so I'm

interested in hammering.

This is *not* intent to hammer,

do not claim based on it

This is something of a prod-dodge, and I apologise for it, I really hate prod-dodging.

In twelve hours, I will be back either with intent to hammer or continuing on my merry Dooku tunnel.

So... what's the line between interest and intent? Currently you're interested but in 12 hours you expect something will turn it up to intent? Or is it just a setup that allows you to tunnel on Dooku because nobody can guarantee such will turn up within 12 hours?

[deathfisaro]

I'm in California right now to see my family over Christmas. I think I'll still be around to post every day (more likely every night) but I'm not sure how often. I just got a couple minutes now to post this in case anyone's wondering why I have suddenly disappeared.

Note to self: catch up from 186.
Already 30 posts =( hope they don't pile up too much by tonight.

[deathfisaro]

Wow I didn't think there would be this many posts.
But compared to the number of posts, the content hasn't moved forward much.
Initially I was considering replacing out because there was no way I can catch up 200 posts but I might just pull it off, most of them are quite short.
All my game related data are on my desktop at home so I don't know if I want to re-read the first half on top of all the catching up to do...

Hello, House!

[deathfisaro]

Man I feel for you theBreeze. Now I've done 2 iterations of my catchup, there are things that I'd like to bring up but at the same time it's like 150 posts ago and I'm like uh... can I still?
And now because I didn't quote them when I saw them if I want to quote them I need a 3rd run =( I miss my votecount + read spreadsheet with all the post numbers and everything...

So this game has entered a new phase, called House replace in. People I initially scumread have gone quiet, and people who I nullread have surfaced but not very towny.
It might just be post hoc, or it might be House triggered.

House was in my last game and his attitude towards me and his attitude towards Dooku feel different. He had his nitpickings about me but wasn't rude. Maybe because someone else was being excessively rude already and he didn't feel the need to double that experience in my first game? Because of this minor discrepancy in his rudeness level, House is null replacing into a previously null slot, how great.

@Dooku, I also promised myself never to play again with a certain person because of his rudeness. The blind and deaf are very vocal but when their tunnel flips town they also become the mute =P

I know Dani's V/LA but I don't like his last post. Will talk about it when he comes back.

I thought I'd come online every night because I thought all I'd do is just hang out with family but turned out it wasn't the case. So I'm V/LA till 30th but I really hope (and will try) to be more active.

[deathfisaro]

Merry Christmas to you all!

[deathfisaro]

I subbed into my last game and started with an intro post and I said I preferred to be called Depi if my full username was too long because I don't like to be called "death" (who does?).
I'd have done the intro because that's how I thought mafia games open, but apparently they open with something called RVS instead and I felt kinda weird doing an intro as a newbie. And even if I do some people are unnecessarily rude and they ignore it anyway so I'm ticked =P

[deathfisaro]

You say there's a connection to me from dooku' perspective, but that actually doesn't make sense. It would maybe make sense if I'm a random person, but I'm the IC.

Erm... I think newbie games have a very interesting mechanic called experience and to some extent, duty.
I like how you're both active as a player and as an IC (personally I think quiet ICs who get killed on N1 make the game not easier for town in the least). But "I'm the IC" comment is I don't know... unfair? You're in here to help newbies learn the game and yet you're kind of saying "you can't have such suspicions because of my role as IC." Because other games there won't be an IC and we don't need to learn a mindset where we give special privilege to some players.
And this is one of my nitpickings about Dani's last post (I think he'll bring it up himself looking at 378).

@Tammy
Re: 316 (Sorry, quote bug with cellphone, cannot quote)
That is one thing that I dislike that, but that actually makes the scum's job easier.
Why? Because even when a town player uses that statement (x or y, not both; and let's say x and y are town) enables the scum to jump on that tvt "fight" and can easily fly under the radar, strengthen the contrast between x and y, and it will result easy mislynches for the scum team. I know it for sure. I don't have that much experience, but this is something that even I did last game where I was newbscum. Even a newbscum was able to push mislynch(es), until Ray came. But even then Ray only pointed out scumtells about me, and didn't point out the truth about the tvt fight.
Conclusion: The only situation where "one of x and y must be scum, but they cannot be both scum" type statements help the town, when the statement is true and the person who says it is a townie. When the person is scum: see 201, when a townie "misreads" two townies: above.

I'm not sold that these things help town either. If such is said by town, there is really no guarantee that the statement is even half true. If it is said by scum, it's likely be TvT mislynch battle. If it was D2 or later and cop hasn't claimed but want to hint other townies that he's confirmed one scum and lead it, I can understand it but I don't know if it helps town otherwise.
Given such statements, you'd expect people to follow logically the next days after people flip, but generally the next day is generally a brand newish game for some counterintuitive reasons.

[deathfisaro]

Well I agree that I don't find much (if anything) suspicious about Dooku and you pair in particular but I just didn't like the expression. If Dooku said it I'd be perfectly fine with it.
I just like preemptively shooting down things that can potentially be exploited later =P

[deathfisaro]

@deathfisaro
I'm still not sure what you disliked about #210. Do you feel that the motive behind [things it says] anti-town? I'll admit it's a very passive post, which doesn't put pressure onto anyone or even support any viewpoint. It's not really indicative of convictions on my part. By the way, does this

Interesting. The two stars of the show, and the IC who only you had the mind to scrutinize.

say anything to you?
-
I'm going on a trip and will be back in the next 36 hours, barring an unforeseen turn of events.

It's hard to describe. It's not easy to simply it as "anti-town" or "scummy" or "fluff" or whatever else people use.
I think it's your point of view more than the content of your post. That exact quote struck me with such impression. While I agree that ICs are theoretically a better role model than SEs (many SEs play like they're going through "puberty" stage of mafia, however you interpret that is up to you because it's an extremely general and vague statement) they're still just 1 player with no more special power than any other player and should be treated like a regular player.
In my first game, which was a newbie game, I felt like it was normal to treat IC as IC. But as soon as I got into a normal game I'm now like "IC? So what?." Maybe I've gone too much the opposite direction but it might become a pet peeve if people keep making newbie games feel like a pseudo caste system game. I try not to label people newbies or SEs or ICs, it affects the game subtly but I haven't actually come across a time where people took experience into account when reading and improved it because they did.
I know I brought up this topic but I've been feeling it for a while and eventually wanted to vent. I want to go back to scumhunting but at this point what I need more than votecount is if people are still alive =P

And the whole IC thing aside, I think having "two stars of the show" is actually anti-town. Means 7 people (since you can be part of the two) fly relatively under the radar intentionally or not. And also, even with extensions the deadline's closing in and the game's so lukewarm this is especially the case.

[deathfisaro]

Just ISO'd my top suspects, and given 175~190 (funny how these are now 200 posts ago but still are "recent") I find 2b1s scummier than firebound12 now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: 2birds1stone

@Dooku: I like 391. You admit your mistakes and can calm down and move on to make better plays. Shows maturity.
And after reading your post, I think giving reads list may be a good way to CPR this game. So I'll join in.

Victor-House:

Null-null as I previously stated (nothing of worth was posted since then by him).

RayFrost:

Was forever townreading him and still do. Seriously considered just sheeping him but the only reason I didn't was because I wanted to learn other things in a newbie game first.

Tammy:

I'd say null, or mixed bag. Has mixed tempo? Sometimes gentle sometimes more assertive, I assume walking the middle of the road to avoid getting NK'd first. But I can't tell if the middle path is acting scummy as town or acting towny as scum. If I read House and Tammy correctly this game, I'm gonna self-crown myself grown out of newbie status (skillwise, as I'm gonna grow out of newbie status site rule wise soon regardless of how well I play anyway =P).

Dani:

Null for not much activity. If this continues I'll have to question if intentionally lurking but over holiday season it's really hard to tell, so null has to do for now.

2birds1stone:

I placed my vote on him, can I make it any more obvious? Well, as VTs, people are not very interested in town PRs but his intent for hammer was solely to draw out a claim. The first thing I'd ask is a reads list because that's useful information but he jumped straight to "claim please." Subconscious mind speaking. And not even 12 hours before that "claim please" he said "do not claim", and you know what I hate. I figure he was going to draw out an easy claim slowly, expecting the wagon to hold strong but didn't so became impatient. My strongest scumread.

theBreeze:

haven't really followed up since coming to California, initially was one of my scumread/scumleans and I'd keep scumlean but not much.

firebound12:

still loaded with things I don't like, he's gone through difference phases it's become harder to read whether it's scummy or just bad town play. Gone from scumread to scumlean.

Count Dooku:

I think he picked up his game a lot. I didn't meta him but other people said he plays differently from his first scum game. I haven't found anything that would change my mind since my last read on him myself so I'm standing by my townread. If he pulls off a major plot twist and flips scum I'm gonna be so defeated I don't know how I'll cope with it so please be town lol.

And this is 2 games in a row where people tell me I only post impressions and cast suspicions here and there but never scumhunt. I guess there is still a transition hurdle from playing offline to online.

[deathfisaro]

Ugh wanted to post more in detail but was constantly getting meatworld prodded while writing it. I might not be available until Monday afternoon~night but I'll try to check in sooner if possible.

[deathfisaro]

Wow I genuinely appreciate your effort to read up on 17 pages worth of stuff, come up with a sessional reads breakdown and share them!
I think I just fell in love a little. This game has so many nice people and is this the Christmas spirit? I'm so happy right now (well, just had a whole coconut to myself too, can't handle this much happiness it feels like I'm drunkposting.)

[deathfisaro]

420: The players in this forum are not people I know. So when people post, there are alignment related findings and there are personality related findings. Those two are for the most part independent and it helps me to see them independently. Therefore I post about the two independently. All I'm saying is "nice person != towny".

421: I placed a strong vote (would almost be final for day 1 unless something ridiculous happens) after all the consideration and for some reason you say I'm continuing to not cast any votes? I must have a serious lack of understanding of how voting system works then, because I clearly don't know how to place multiple votes on one person.

422:
Null
Townread
Mixed bag
Null
Scum
Scumlean
Scumlean
Town
Statistically my favourite word has to be scum, null and town would tie for 2nd place.
It's funny because your first read list in the previous game had 5 null reads in a 9 player game.

423:
Speaking of terrible lists, "Town: Everybody else" ...

General:
Well after having replied to all that, thanks to you I have 1 fewer null reads. Your slot was hard to read, and your replace in didn't improve any content. But now you've supplied me enough.
I see the 4 chain posts was strategic. Now you're going to say "Null read is a typical read for scum to give their buddies and now Depi is only null reading Dani therefore Dani and Depi are scum team."
Overall this makes House town, just not a nice guy =P

[deathfisaro]

So if a child bumps into my truck I should be freaking out because my car is totaled.
House, you think too highly of yourself. You think your post is so well written they'd be powerful but all I see is a kid running into my truck, fall down and get hurt.

If he was town, he should have been furious that

I would go to such lengths to paint him as scum on weak grounds and chain mislynches

when Dani is universally nullread due to her inactivity.

Thank you for scum slipping.

Also you're establishing yourself as a contradiction train. One of them is saying it wasn't strategic and now saying I should have been furious. I'd mention the rest but I don't want to quote 16 posts spanning like 3 minutes. Just make a bigger post instead of half dozen 1 liners.

[deathfisaro]

Sorry for not being active recently. I was quite busy even after my V/LA ended to my surprise. And the game reopened on Saturday night after I logged off and I'm unavailable whole day Sunday now I'm back in Canada.

I find it surprising people go after RayFrost as soon as the day started. House said if nobody show up he'll hammer anyway so why would scum unnecessarily draw attention to himself (even more so by giving lengthy explanation) by beating a dead horse? If Ray was scum, he worked pretty hard to town up all day D1 and by the hammer threw away some of it. Like someone said, with 5 years on the site I'm sure he can see the consequences of his hammer and the cons outweigh pros too much to be worth doing it as scum.

As for the Silver's question, I started the game with a negative first impression on theBreeze because of his rolefishing question list (which seemed super scummy given the number of posts back then). Is on top of every minor detail in this game (if we play trivia of this game he'll definitely win except if the question is asking whether someone is a he or a she ;P) and yet hasn't found scum utilizing all the knowledge he's acumulated? I haven't found like a major evidence against him for finding him as scummy as time went on but his posts doesn't sway my reads in either direction. So calling him scum is a bit of a stretchy after 500 posts, but calling him town is also a stretch, so I ended up in scumlean.

I like the rest of your plays SilverWolf, but D2's opening I dislike quite a bit. You draw everyone's attention to Ray right off the bat, then in less than 12 hours you vote Dani? I don't quite follow.

As for Dani, He made a good point in 564. But I don't like how you speak on behalf of Ray, and I don't get what you're saying in 571 at all.

Funny, in my first game, even after my death I followed the game and found people playing quite differently on D2 than D1. I see that in this game too.

[deathfisaro]

@deathfisaro-I don't like your defense of Ray considering he's got a vote on you. That just seems like a subtle way to have him look more favorably on you.

What don't you understand about how I started the day? I saw a blatantly scummy action that I didn't have time to address D1, so I brought it up D2. When he answered to my satisfaction, considering he was strong town otherwise, I didn't vote him or pursue it further. I voted Dani who was a scumread of mine from D1 for the reasons I stated. So I'm not so sure what is so difficult to understand with my play so far. I usually vote unless we are in a situation like lylo or someone is very close to a lynch and I don't want them lynched yet or something like that because voting is a great way to scumhunt. Never throw away the power of your vote. Use it if you can. In fact, if people don't vote for long periods of time, I get suspicious because it looks like a way to avoid taking hard stances and makes it more difficult to get a read on someone as well.

I was forever townreading Ray, and my impression of his hammer is what I stated already. His vote on me has no effect on my read, and if you think my post would buy Ray's favour, I think that's just you belittling Ray as a player.
Well, mainly I didn't think the hammer was "blatantly scummy" and "It's acceptable for now considering your pro-town play otherwise" in 556 meant "he answered to my satisfaction." It sounded more like "the answer is meh but he was strong townread so I'll let you go." I didn't have a problem with you voting Dani, it was just the pace at which you pursued Ray, then dropped, and moved on.

deathfisaro

: (allegedly) commits scum-motivated actions. Didn't hunt D1. He said himself that he's only been giving impressions and opinions, iirc. Subject to a bunch of players' suspicions, so I don't want to comment right now for fear of conf bias.

Um, I never said I've only been giving impressions and opinions. I said people accused me of doing such.

comment about an ongoing game redacted. - f

So at this point I probably need a good mentor who can teach me how other people will also see my scumhunting as scumhunting. I don't know how I play the best townleader I know of in an offline game but people keep calling I don't scumhunt in online games. It's so much easier to scumhunt using micro expressions when you can read them (unless you're playing with people trained to hide microexpressions like spies?). I'm trying, it's just my D2 impressions are quite different from D1 I need time to organize my thoughts.

[deathfisaro]

Okay, then answer this question, please:
After your top suspect replaced out would you drop your suspicions on that slot?

From my experience, nobody does.

Well, I can call "half town - half scum"

null

. Is that better?

Then House will say you're scum with SilverWolf =P

[deathfisaro]

Bottom line Dooku is I do not like being called half scum/half town. I can't be both. It's a bad read. Saying you'd vote for firebound if he was here doesn't make sense because he's not here. I can't speak for him and am not going to do so. I can only speak for myself. By saying the only reason you are not voting for me is because firebound isn't here, is a weak read and nonsensical as well. I don't like it.

Dani is also calling House half-town/half-scum.

[deathfisaro]

@deathfisaro
You shouldn't (well... mustn't) talk about ongoing games.

I didn't think "someone said this about me" to append to what's being said about me in this game was, even if ongoing, against the rules. Mod please let me know.

[deathfisaro]

Count Dooku

: I have no idea how any of you don't at least scumlean him. I concede that the accidental L-1 of TheBreeze was given too much weight.

Give us your reason to at least scumlean him please.

Dani

: either way, better step up their game if they want to win.

(Conf. Town)

LOL

TheBreeze

: seems to really enjoy details. First he nitpicks on RayFrost for RVS shenanigans (no follow-up), then he nitpicks on Dooku (and went around showing 88 to everyone who would listen). Has a WIFOM townread on Dooku, easily impressed by SilverWolf, had a problem with 2b1s' personality. (Townlean)

Care to explain how those sequence of sentences end up in townlean? If I had those exact sentences in my read I'd end up in scumlean?

House

(replacing Victor): could be scum with Dooku. It would be the perfect crime.

First tell us why Dooku is your scumread, and also give us why House could be scum with Dooku. You have reasons associated with your townreads and even nullreads, but your scumreads are completely empty. People say "gut feeling" as a reason but you don't even have a gut feeling against them. What?

What, did you want a vote?

You scumread 2 people but don't want to commit to either? I think you're trying to mislead town to arguably easy targets but want to stay off the wagon to attempt to avoid future suspicion because you know it's a mislynch.
VOTE: Dani
Having bad reasons to vote is one to look at, having no reason to not vote is another.

[deathfisaro]

Do not refer to ongoing games in other games. This is a site rule.

I see, sorry about that. Will say nothing about other games.

[deathfisaro]

Oh I must have missed someone's vote, I counted him having 3 votes with mine, apparently it's 4. My bad. How ironic I said we should declare L-1's very early on in the game =P

[deathfisaro]

Hmm... I've been in MyLo situations in offline games but both massclaiming and hypocopping are completely new to me. So I read the wiki page and

Massclaim is frequently employed as a last resort for Towns in LyLo, as the resulting danger to the power roles at Night is acceptable given that the Town may lose at the end of the Day.

So is it still worth doing in MyLo? Doesn't Silver's no lynch idea give us better win rate?

As for Ray nominating Dooku, my initial thoughts were 1) why does Ray get to pick first 2) why Dooku?

Popcorn
In this claim method, the players choose by consensus one of the scummier players to claim first.

[deathfisaro]

I thought I told everyone that I'm not available on Sundays minimum. Getting called "lurking like crazy" for a declared regular absence since joining the site.
Also if the day lasts until then I'll be unavailable starting Friday 5:00 pm PST to Saturday 2:00 pm PST weekly. That still doesn't guarantee availability Saturday afternoon~ so if the game is close to and end I might have to put down practically final action on Friday. But the day still has 7 more days as of coming Friday so I don't know if any town is in a rush to end the day. Putting it here just in case people accuse me of lurking again.
My MeatWorld schedule has hurt me more than benefited me, if I had the choice I'd rather be available and playing.

Back to the main game, I'm suspecting theBreeze and Tammy combo here. Yesterday's Tammy hammer was "blatantly scummy" and while theBreeze put a vote on her which appeared like he cornered Tammy. But he did it in a way that pushing the wagon would appear scummy therefore ended up protecting her.
Also SilverWolf's activity doesn't exactly ping town as she concludes some people are town super quickly (and by reading the whole interaction I don't get how she ended up with the conclusions). It feels like she had predetermined list of people to publicly declare town coming into D3 and all there's left are 2 newbies.

What do I find scummier between these two, I'd have to say protecting. I want to tell you the reasons exactly but I can't. But the information is available publicly so I'm sure you'll be able to find it without too much trouble.

Nominate: theBreeze.

[deathfisaro]

I'm free today, but I haven't found anything new since my last post that'd change my mind. What do you want me to talk about?
728~732 is super weird but I don't know what to make of it yet

[deathfisaro]

Vanilla Townie

Next: Tammy

[deathfisaro]

660 I felt I was hinting why I didn't want to do it and you pushed it Ray.

I'm pretty sure that was a good hint on my part.

You can't blame Ray for pushing massclaim. 651 isn't a good hint at all. You basically came out AFTER massclaim was a go and got outed by theBreeze.
If you didn't obv claim, you could have gone last naturally as it seems experienced players are capable of picking up "PR tells".
But I have a problem with that. I found firebound scummy and the only reason I don't change my suspicion to you and Tammy combo is because no one counterclaimed you. And another reason is I don't fully buy theBreeze's recent posts. In my first game, as town doc, with absolutely zero online mafia game experience, knew precisely how the night phase worked for scum (sample role pms are out there and for people who are not familiar with roles in Matrix 6 are bound to read them all?)

[deathfisaro]

Since when did you need permission from people to place a vote?
Your play D3 is super weird.

[deathfisaro]

Saying that I have a suspicion on SilverWolf is a straw man fallacy. I never said Silver was scum. I was implying Silver threw the game by PR slipping and getting outed by theBreeze early.

[deathfisaro]

Wow, a major misrep going on here just because she's PR. I'm surprised people don't see how far she's stretching.
I would have, if people didn't already post exactly what I was thinking. If I still went ahead and posted it, you'd have said I'm just repeating what other people already said anyway so I'm in a lose-lose situation unless I give up my life and monitor this game 24/7.

[deathfisaro]

When did I bitch about you? You accuse me of not contributing anything, I said I would have if my contribution wouldn't have been just repeats of what other people said.
And honestly ever since the massclaim it feels like you're running the whole show alone and I feel like a spectator so it's really hard to get engaged (and given how lukewarm this game has become I don't suppose I'm the only one) if you already have made up your final answer and just ask people to ditto, especially more so since you're wrong and going to lose us the game, thus throwing the game.

[deathfisaro]

I don't remember which game that was but finding a recent scum game of your was like searching for a needle in a haystack. I checked your wiki and then your topics under your user name.

Reason being is that I just can't tell if you are scum or town right now. Although meta is not a reliable took in and of itself, I do know you are an experienced player and I have been fooled by experienced scum players before by townreading them and it's usually because they come off exactly like you are here in these games and I've been susceptible to scum buddying before which is what I think you are talking about in the connections to townies more so than the forming of connections to townies with each other.

I do admit you are very transparent in your though processes however, something feels off and

I can't quite shake the feeling that you are really trying hard to push the lynch/jailing away from yourself and deathfisaro here.

I mean, if I can't see Dooku and TheBreeze being partners because Dooku seems town to me, then you want me to look at TheBreeze.

I don't know, I get paranoid sometimes and I don't want to get into confbias territory and miss obvscum because I can only see you and deathfisaro.

If you're in my shoes this is easy to see.
If Ray is scum then his partner is either Dooku or theBreeze (possibly Tammy but I don't see Ray-Tammy combo more likely over the other combinations?). If he's pushing lynch/jail away from himself and me, then he puts one of his buddy at risk of getting lynched. Then he doesn't benefit from defending me, actually works against his win condition. This gives me enough reasons to believe he's coming from a town mindset. Of course this is different from me finding Dooku/Breeze scummy independently and is still an uncertainty from your point of view because you haven't seen my role PM.
Also another reason that I suspect why you find it difficult to accept Dooku & theBreeze combination is because you take experience into account and would it humiliating if you lost a game to newbscum team. (I forgot to quote which posts you talk about experience but I'm sure you yourself would remember since you wrote it yourself =P)

And because you suspect Ray and I are buddies, here's what I suggest to Ray. Vote me. I vote you. If at least one of us is scum, there won't be a last minute coordinated lolhammer, and if both of us are scum like SilverWolf argues, then today's lynch will be guaranteed scum. Both cases are pro-town.
Now here's the thing, if Ray doesn't vote me then it'll appear what I just wrote is so against scum's win condition he can't do it which is basically a scumclaim. Then it should be easy for the rest of the town to make the decision.
VOTE: RayFrost

[deathfisaro]

But we're at a 6 player D3 (and although someone suggested MyLo and it was widely accepted as MyLo whole day, it's technically at worst My50%Lo?), not 5 player LyLo.
There are 4 towns, T1, T2, T3, T4 and 2 scums S1 and S2.
If the wagon looks like this:
T1(1): T2
T2(1): T1
It takes 4 to lynch.
No matter how S1 and S2 combo, both wagons are at L-1. The only way scums easy mislynch today is 3 towns (however split) on 2 wagons.
T3 and T4 have options to either pursue S1 & S2 or just let scums have their mislynch by piling up 2 votes on a wagon and let the 3rd and 4th vote be S1&S2's scumclaims. At that point SilverWolf has a 50% shot at jailing scum. And since 2 scums already claimed D3, 5P LyLo D4 is going to resolve in an easy landslide town win. If you're scum or the 2nd vote on a wagon is scum (or scums would rather not take the 50% chance of surviving N3), then there won't be coordinated votes to end the day so we avoid easy mislynch.

How is this illogical?

pedit: @Silver: Hmm must be my interpretation of your reference to player experience was wrong, I have no problem taking back my statement if it isn't true.

[deathfisaro]

@Ray: There's a big difference between me THINKING you're town and me KNOWING you're town. I THINK you're town but I DON'T KNOW you're town. So my suggestion wasn't to let other people know any of us is town or scum, it was for ME to better figure out if you're town. And you're illogically reluctant. How does it benefit you and the game that you're wanting to hide your alignment to me?

@Rest: I need to figure out Ray because there are more possible combination of scum teams than I'd like to consider if I'm open to everyone minus me and Silver potentially being scum. That's a very uneducated blind guess and obviously I'm not gonna take my chances this late in the game. But Ray isn't cooperating and I'm the one to get attacked for Ray's reluctance.

@Silver: Interesting how you say Ray and I are connected for me townreading him. That makes me connected with Dooku too, so Ray+Depi+Dooku are one team? Oh wait, I think you just solved the game, Ms. Sherlock.

[deathfisaro]

This game was especially difficult to be scum as because
1) I was so focused on who to kill, I didn't pay attention to the alive player count, 50% MyLo and such (on D3 I was like "whaaat such there is such a thing as MyLo?")
2) people played their newbie card as their townslip cards and I was left with no easy victims to push
3) combined with my metaworld events D3 was a trainwreck

My scariest moment was actually N1, after jumping on firebound wagon I was sure I'd be outed and lynched.

Thanks for the fun game guys =)