Newbie 1562: Muses and Fates GAME OVER

[Tammy]

IC Intro

Hello!

I am the Inexperience-Challenged (IC) player in this game. I'm here to help newbie players learn how to play mafia at mafiascum.net. If you have any questions about mafia theory or how to play out certain situations, ask away. I guarantee that I will not lie about theory and practice regardless of my alignment. And my alignment is guaranteed to be randomized by random.org or a similar randomizing process. Although I'm here to help teach, I'm also here to play the game to the best of my ability to help my team (town or scum) win. Treat me as a fellow player worthy of suspicion and testing

Also, in this game, we have 3 Semi-Experienced (SE) players. If I'm not around and you guys have a question, they can also answer questions, and may give you better answers than I can.

My play will conform to this page: Being a good IC

Here are a few tips to playing successfully in this game, and at mafiascum.net in other games.

Don't lurk:

Lurking is basically reading a game but not posting. Lurking will usually hurt you regardless of your alignment. People are suspicious of lurkers so try to play actively and make substantive posts most days during the game.

Always lynch Day 1:

Day 1 is the day when we have the least information. Some newbies prefer no lynching Day 1 because they want more information from PRs (Power Roles), or just simply they are too afraid of lynching townies. However, don't be afraid to lynch Day 1. Lynching Day 1 will provide the lynched player's cardflip, and the flip along with the way the player's bandwagon formed is important information for Day 2 and beyond. If we don't lynch, we have zero chance of catching scum that day.

Never self-hammer:

Never self-hammer, especially as town. It could haunt you in future games, and it deprives your team of the extra information about the player who might have hammered you instead. There are some situation where self-hammering is acceptable, especially as scum, but just don't do it in general. Even if your chance is slim, always try to get out of the lynch rather than giving up.

Do not fakeclaim a PR as VT:

Of course, this is directed to town. Scums may fakeclaim as they wish. Some newbie VT (Vanilla Townie) tend to fakeclaim because they are in trouble and want to live, or they don't believe their suspect's claim (especially PR claim). Don't do it. When you fakeclaim a PR as VT, you have a chance to draw out an actual PR into counter-claiming, which is bad for you and town.

Do NOT quickhammer as town:

A quickhammer is when you hammer a player without giving them a chance to claim their role when they are one vote away from being lynched. Quickhammering cuts off the discussion, looks scummy, and could make you the next game day's lynch. The proper way to place a hammervote is to check if the person is in L-1 (Lynch minus 1, which means one vote away from eating rope), declare the intent to hammer, get a claim, and THEN hammer if the person still needs to be lynched. The worst case is someone quickhammering a player who is an unclaimed PR.

Here are some useful links about playing mafia.

Newbie Guide
Frequently Asked Questions
Commonly Used Abbreviations

Day 1 is the day when we have the least amount of information. Many players start Day 1 by placing a random vote on someone. The

Random Voting Stage (RVS)

is a way to apply pressure and create reactions by both the voted player and by everyone else.

Not everyone votes in their first post as you'll see when playing elsewhere on the site.

This is my first time as an IC, so it will be a learning experience for us all!

And I am waiting for some IC posts. What's up Tammy?

I had final grades to submit and then was traveling all day yesterday.

You'll have to wait a little longer for some posts for me; I just found out about a death in the family and I need to wake up and make some calls. I will be back later today though, but I at least wanted to get the intro post up.

(Intro post stolen from ffery)

[Tammy]

VOTE: Dani
I am really looking forward to play with you guys!

This kind of entrance always gives me pause. Sometimes it's genuine, but sometimes it's scum not knowing what to say so saying they're happy to play is a kind of way to look happy and play up to the player list.

I just looked at your other game to see how you entered and you tried to excuse your play ahead of time and flipped scum on day two. In that regard this feels a little more relaxed and is of less concern.

[Tammy]

VOTE: TheBreeze

Only scum would have reason to be afraid of me.

Last newbie game I played was in part won due to hypocopping, but I'm unsure if it's actually optimal play. I usually dislike D1 theory discussion immensely, but I feel that this is important enough to warrant it.

I can only guess what hypo copping is, but if it is what I'm gathering then I'm not interested. I'd rather people new to the game get used to the game before adding oddities especially when they're unlikely to happen or work in a game outside this queue

~~~

Apologies for spam posting; I'm on my phone.

[Tammy]

While we wait for the IC to say something, I am going to start off with some questions to get the discussion going.

1.) There are some interesting roles here. Which one did you want to get?
2.) What kind of onsite and/or offsite experience do you have with this game?
3.) Do you have a survivalist mindset when playing this type of game? If so, has that hurt your game in the past?
4.) On a scale of 1 to 10, how well can you lie? Why did you select that number?
5.) How often have you checked this thread in the past 14+ hours? Why did you decide not post anything else?

I will answer my own questions sometime tomorrow

I'm not a big fan of rqs. Some people are and do them and there have been discussions in mafia discussion about their usefulness and what types of questions are the best to ask if you do use them. You would have to search for them if you are interested in that sort of thing. I typically don't answer them when they are asked unless the questions are humorous or do seem to be geared to finding scum through mindset.

But there are a couple I will talk about. I have 3+ years of experience over three sites. I learned this game on a website with 32 hour days, so it moves very fast.

Some people think that only scum have a survivalist mindset, but it's more a personality tell than anything. There are some people oh don't mind being lynched as town and won't fight their mislynch much because they figure it gives good information to town. They tend to think the survivalist mindset is scum behavior. There are others, like me, who fight not to get lynched and are survivalistic when town. Though there are some tells that you can pick up wherein the survivalism is clearly more scum minded than town minded, but those are behavioral and are hard to describe.

[Tammy]

Oh I just read the link and get the idea behind hypo copping. Well there's nothing to do about it day one, so it's something that could be discussed later.

[Tammy]

Guys I really think we should keep track of the vote count and declare L-1s.
I read Breeze's questions and didn't like them (not just the questions themselves but the order of questions), so I thought I'd put pressure by voting him. Then while I was re-reading page 1, vote count 1.2 was posted and I avoided hammering by a few minutes (part of it would have been my fault for not keeping count myself and relying on other players and mod to do it for others). So I'm saying we should start doing it.

TheBreeze

is at

L-1

, please declare intent to hammer and hear his defense first.

edit: became

L-2

while writing this message.

This is really good advice.

What was it about the order of the questions you didn't like?

[Tammy]

1.) There are some interesting roles here. Which one did you want to get?

I usually like town who can shoot people (i.e vigilante) but there's none of that in newbie games.
Just a question, the bulletproof works like this right?

A One-Shot Bulletproof is immune to one kill. Unlike the previous examples, this ability is reflexive, remaining constantly passive until it is "triggered" once at which time it disappears. The player does not choose on which Night it should be Bulletproof, in other words.

I played another type of mafia game which let you decide when to use the bulletproof (and if you didn't get shot the night you use the bulletproof, you basically wasted your bulletproof ability).

2.) What kind of onsite and/or offsite experience do you have with this game?

This is my first game of mafiascum. I played IRL a few times, but I started liking the Mafia genre after playing a ton of Town of Salem, which is a browser online game. I remembered that one of my friend is really good at Mafia and he suggested me to join Mafiascum. Most Mafia games have the same type of roles but they have different abilities so I'm still learning how some of the abilities work with each other.

3.) Do you have a survivalist mindset when playing this type of game? If so, has that hurt your game in the past?

I'm used to not talking/talking about random stuff to survive, but in mafiascum that's a bad practice lol. Unless I have a scumread, then I'll do everything to convince people to lynch that scum.

4.) On a scale of 1 to 10, how well can you lie? Why did you select that number?

4 online, 2 face to face. I'm a very bad liar, especially face to face. On the other hand, I love mind game and listening to others' lies. I like shows like Liar Game or Death Note.

5.) How often have you checked this thread in the past 14+ hours? Why did you decide not post anything else?

I checked it twice every day ever since my name was picked. Once they announced this game I was wondering why it took so long to be open lol.

TheBreeze should really have 2 votes against him because Dani random voted him. 2birds and victor have real suspicions against TheBreeze though.

@Tammy: sorry for your loss

On phone, so can't cut this down, but the bulletproof in this game is not activated by the player. If the bp person is shot, they don't die and they are not informed if it is used. The next time they are shot, they die.

~~~

Thank you everyone!

[Tammy]

I don't really like this vote, given that dooku said he wasn't aware of the l-1 and actually unvoted immediately after he realized it. Framing this as "dooku planned to put him at l-1! This is scummy!" is misrepresenting the situation and itself feels a tad scummy to me.

Scum can lie.

I'm suggesting that Dooku lied.

Shocking, I know.

Is your suspicion against him that he followed people's suspicion on Breeze? Or that you think he's lying about not realizing he put someone at L-1? Or both?

[Tammy]

This kind of entrance always gives me pause. Sometimes it's genuine, but sometimes

it's scum not knowing what to say

so saying they're happy to play is a kind of way to look happy and play up to the player list.

Well, if this site really doesn't like, that I actually was indeed happy to play after 2-3 days of waiting after Mina announced this group, I won't do it again. And I don't know what are you trying to express with the bolded. I thought the random vote is random because there is no actual reason for that vote. So why is that necessary, to say something beside the vote?

The random vote is random, so it isn't necessary to say something besides the vote. Sometimes people joke about the player, etc. For instance, when I do rvs vote I almost always vote the player I've known the longest or the best in the game and will sometimes make an inside joke. People do whatever they do. I'm not telling you not to make any sort of post. But one of the hardest things for most scum to learn is how to enter the game, so it's something I look out for. Is someone trying to cover up a nervousness? That type of thing. It's not always going to net you scum but it can give you a place to start.

[Tammy]

Not answering the random questions, and I feel that answering the questions is anti-town (not that that ever seems to stop town from answering them).

@TheBreeze
1. I cannot see those "interesting roles"...
2. 1 onsite, and some IRL.
3. Yes, I have. No, it didn't hurt me. And I think it will barely ever hurt me. 99% advantage, 1% disadvantage.
4. That is something that I can't answer. And I think nobody can answer it. Because "How well" is relative.
5. I checked it pretty frequently yesterday. Today this is the first time.
I did post another post (5) so I think I don't have to answer your last question.

Well, if I think about it, I don't like the first RQS question either.
...
This is not a strong scum-read, but for now:VOTE: The Breeze

That collection of posts pings hard. The idea that random questions are bad had already entered the thread, but he didn't consider it until the oppurtunity to put someone at undeclared L-1 presented itself.

When you pulled up the collection of posts that pinged, why did you skip over the other posts in between? That thought progression and vote didn't seem so odd that way.

[Tammy]

I am just getting the feeling that you are buddying up with him. You voted with him and now you are defending him. Just because he claims that he was unaware of me being in L-1, doesn't necessarily mean its true. Are you friends outside of the game or something?

Your analysis certainly sounds right, but seeing as your first point involves the random voting stage, it loses some credibility. It just feels like two players presenting two sides to the case of a scummy third player. I

am

suspicious of Count Dooku because he played follow-the-leader with VictorDeAngelo on your wagon. There is also his behavior disconnect across posts 18 and 20.
[/quote]

What are the behavior disconnects there?

[Tammy]

@Death
Could you answer Tammy's question?

^^^

So far I'm liking Ray Frost for town.

[Tammy]

@Death
Could you answer Tammy's question?

^^^

So far I'm liking Ray Frost for town.

What? What is the connection between Ray and that quote?

There is no connection; I just didn't want to make a separate post for no reason.

[Tammy]

I'm still reading and man it's tougher to follow what everyone says.

Of course the other side of the story would be it was a trap. Given how often random hammers take place in newbie games it could be as easy as setting up a trap and just hoping and waiting.
But Dooku in 31 unvoted

4 minutes

after TheBreeze's post. If it was a trap, Dooku could have pretended to be offline and keep hoping that someone will bite it. His posting hours indicate that if he didn't unvote immediately, he'd be safe to keep the trap for 18~20 more hours with zero suspicion (ISO him and notice the posting times) but he didn't.
The conclusion I derive from this action aligns with my initial feeling that Dooku simply made a mistake. So I withdraw my vote from Dooku. It was an RVS but with 2b1s making a case on Dooku for reasons opposite of mine I can't stay there.

You do have a point here with the timing. If dooku was scum he wouldnt take off his vote that early.

since we're out of RVS, I think it's safe for me to take off my first vote.

UNVOTE:

Why wouldn't he take his vote off that early?

[Tammy]

I believe I have a question that needs answering but I'll get to that right after I get this off of my chest:

Also, dooku, if you were told that 2b1s is actually town (mod confirmed information, let's say), where would you place your vote and why?

Well, I don't know.

We are only on page 3. Most of the players didn't do anything alignment indicative.

How do you not know? You voted for me on page 1 (post 24) because you did not like my RQS and had some sort of scum-read on me.

Well, if I think about it, I don't like the first RQS question either.
That is a) useless or b) role hunting.

This is not a

strong

scum-read, but for now:VOTE: The Breeze
And I am waiting for some IC posts. What's up Tammy?

I interrupt this as you having a slight scum-read on me and that contradicts your response to RayFrost's question. Why did you not tell him that you would hypothetically vote for ME when I supposedly did something alignment indicative.

This is a really good point, and I'm embarrassed at how long it took me to understand it (my brain probably won't start functioning properly for another couple days). I thought dooku's response in Post 109 was a bit odd tonally. Post 64 wasn't necessarily clear that her answer negated his earlier scum read. If he'd have said he didn't really suspect breeze in his response, it would have also been clear.

[Tammy]

@Death
Could you answer Tammy's question?

I assume the question is:

What was it about the order of the questions you didn't like?

Regarding

1.) There are some interesting roles here. Which one did you want to get?
2.) What kind of onsite and/or offsite experience do you have with this game?
3.) Do you have a survivalist mindset when playing this type of game? If so, has that hurt your game in the past?
4.) On a scale of 1 to 10, how well can you lie? Why did you select that number?
5.) How often have you checked this thread in the past 14+ hours? Why did you decide not post anything else?

It didn't occur to me until firebound12 in 34 answered vigilante to the 1st question.
If you answer a role that's not in the Matrix6, obviously you have more experience than many of us (because the only roles I played offline with my friends were Cop and Doctor even in a large game like 14 players we'd only have 1 Cop and 1 Doc, and new players very likely will be limited to Matrix6). So it's logical to ask for mafia experience first, at least to me if I were to come up with a list of RQs.

So the impression I got was the 1st question was intended for role-fishing. But if you ask a single question about everyone's desired role that looks suspicious so he needed extra questions. 2nd question is a null question regarding mafia experience. And 3rd and 4th questions, combined with the 1st question feels like "now slip your role to me, and also tell me how likely you'll claim it under pressure, oh on top of that tell me how easy it would be to attack you for falseclaiming." And ends with the 5th question which is again, not alignment indicative.
Just like how good dessert ends a meal with good impressions, I feel like the 5th question ends RQs with a null vibe. But alternation of role fishing and null questions feel strategically placed. Maybe I'm thinking too hard but I recently watched the Liar Games (I remember someone here liked it too, don't remember who =P) and people can be manipulative in so many ways.

Overall, I'm sensing a "victim hunting" vibe to it more than scum hunting value. Do I find it scummy enough to vote Breeze? Probably not now because my eyes are on 2b1s at the moment. But these RQs are in the back of my mind.

The board is moving faster than I thought and I lack the concentration to read everything at the moment, but I'm busy whole day tomorrow. It's a dilemma. Maybe I'll check again at night.

Yep, that's what I was wondering. I like this response. I wasn't expecting something this in depth.

[Tammy]

I don't know where I'm walling. My real walls in all my other games are offended that these rather short posts are considered walls. >_>

I guess the walls are why 2b1s missed my questions, but he answered them elsewhere, so I got it.

I'm not sure where he considers fire bound to be fluff posting, and hate the thing about him being a pl. this is a learning environment where people are getting accustomed to the game. I'm not sure what that says about his alignment, meh.

Ray frost has a point about breeze not liking 2b1s due to his personality rather than his posts, but I'm kinda liking her approach and liked her question to dooku.

I have some thoughts on a couple other things but am waiting to see how a couple things play out.

[Tammy]

Yeah, I'm one of those annoying stingy with my vote people. I'll vote soon enough.

[Tammy]

I'm still reading and man it's tougher to follow what everyone says.

Of course the other side of the story would be it was a trap. Given how often random hammers take place in newbie games it could be as easy as setting up a trap and just hoping and waiting.
But Dooku in 31 unvoted

4 minutes

after TheBreeze's post. If it was a trap, Dooku could have pretended to be offline and keep hoping that someone will bite it. His posting hours indicate that if he didn't unvote immediately, he'd be safe to keep the trap for 18~20 more hours with zero suspicion (ISO him and notice the posting times) but he didn't.
The conclusion I derive from this action aligns with my initial feeling that Dooku simply made a mistake. So I withdraw my vote from Dooku. It was an RVS but with 2b1s making a case on Dooku for reasons opposite of mine I can't stay there.

You do have a point here with the timing. If dooku was scum he wouldnt take off his vote that early.

since we're out of RVS, I think it's safe for me to take off my first vote.

UNVOTE:

Why wouldn't he take his vote off that early?

On phone, can't cut paragraph

Because dooku could have been counting on someone accidently hammering thebreeze early on.

But he took his vote off of her after she pointed out that she had been put to L-1 so early, wouldn't he have looked bad if he left it on?

[Tammy]

I'm not sure where he considers fire bound to be fluff posting, and hate the thing about him being a pl. this is a learning environment where people are getting accustomed to the game. I'm not sure what that says about his alignment, meh.

Sorry, I guess I can endeavour to be less vitriolic.

Ugh, I don't know how to say this nicely. I look at firebound's iso from before I made the fluffposting comment and see RQS, Hey that might have been OMGUS but I'm keeping my random vote anyway, and unvote. This... I guess it's not alignment-indicative, but it's not really content. There's no visible attempt to ascertain player motivations, there are no committed accusations, it's very, well... actually, what the hell, let's say it's scum.

If Dooku became mod-confirmed, firebrand would be my vote.

He seems kind of tentative and doesn't know what to say. I'm not the greatest at reading newbies, so whether it's scum lost or town lost, I'm not sure.

[Tammy]

On the other hand, I do not like the way 2b1s talks about me since he's attacking my personality more than what I post (imo, and I'm also very sensitive). I have a FoS on him but it's not enough to place a vote yet.

Since I don't contribute much to the discussion I'd rather not vote unless I'm super certain that someone is scum.

How do you feel about me doing something similar to 2b1s, then? (Connecting his personality to the game to try and figure out something about his alignment)

Your vote is not set in stone and you can never be 100% sure who is scum. I highly recommend casting a vote based on your analysis of the last 5 pages just so we can see what you are at least trying to scum hunt. The "only talk when talked to" mentality I see a lot in Town of Salem isn't at all a good strategy in this game so I hope we can help you fix that.

Considering Ray had just asked me to lay down a vote, this feels a bit like you're following his line of questioning.

[Tammy]

While you're here, tammy, would you be so kind as to put a vote down?

Or is that one of your thoughts that you're waiting to put out there while the "couple things" play out?

Yeah, I'm one of those annoying stingy with my vote people. I'll vote soon enough.

Ray, what is your full opinion on Tammy's post here?

What is your full opinion on my posts?

If there's anything you want to ask me, ask me. I won't bite.

[Tammy]

The Breeze: I will answer your question regarding tammy's posts when tammy posts. Reason being that I don't want to shape her behavior with my opinion(s) regarding what she's done so far. That, and what she does changes how I view her. Which is natural, of course, but it's important to try and not augment behavior by preemptively reacting.

It wouldn't! I'm pretty stubborn and don't really change my behavior to suit anyone.

[Tammy]

Is your vote on firebound primarily because his wagon is the one with the momentum currently or is it because you actually think he's scummier? If you think 2b1s is scummier but are voting the wagon with momentum, why? Wouldn't it be more in line with voting to lynch scum to vote the person you think is more likely to be scummy rather than the person getting the most pressure?

As I said, I was null reading firebound with the lurking (or active lurking) he didn't post enough to make out anything of. Until he posted a series of contradictions. I very much hate contradictions as I believe they are strong scumtells (search my posts for "contradiction"). So I'd call it only scumlean at this point due to lack of meaningful posts from his side. And since he started contradicting himself with just a couple votes, with enough pressure I'm sure he'll either break down and scumslip or produce something useful. You can't keep fluffing when you're at L-1.
You're also right that part of it is the momentum on Dooku's wagon. I don't think I can contribute to the protection of Count Dooku for voting for 2b1s. At the same time I have no interest in pushing a wagon of people I don't scumread. My choice was between 2b1s who I find scummy enough already but only has 1 vote, versus firebound who I can only scumlean because he continues to hide and has a wagon to match Dooku's.
Is it better play to let Dooku, who I townread, potentially keep collecting votes while I sit on 2b1s? I actually don't know. I don't know if I'll be able to learn it by the time I'm SE either. My gut is to try to protect everyone who I townread whether it's successful or not.

Contradictions aren't necessarily scumtells. In fact, I believe in very few scum tells because town drop what looks like scum tells all the time. There are some contradictions that look suspect, and the one you noted for firebrand is.

One time in a game I town read and scum read a player in the same post. I literally had her as a scum and town read. It was on purpose. My head said she was town because her posts looked good, but I by gut I scum read her. People got after me for it being a contradiction. My gut was right, she was scum and by the end of the day I was pushing her as scum. My point is that the nature of the contradiction needs to be looked at because contradictions are sometime personality or carelessness.

Your reasoning for voting firebrand as well, protecting your town read who also had some momentum, is something that I've done often.

[Tammy]

It's totally to annoy you!

What do you think of fire bound?

[Tammy]

I'm not asking you the same question, I'm trying to see your thought process.

Please don't replace out. I think you're probably town.

[Tammy]

Also fire bound (sorry for misspelling it's going to happen) it's okay if you're lost. It's okay if you don't know where to start. I've been playing this game for a few years, and I'm still not a good early game person. I've learned an approach that works for me but it took me time. I see a bit of that "don't know where to start or what to push right now" in you. And that's okay.

[Tammy]

I'm trying to make something up, give me a minute!

[Tammy]

It's totally to annoy you!

What do you think of fire bound?

Newbie, prob town. Too much momentum for little effort from the wagoners, feels somewhat like a distraction from 2b1s.

What do you think about... Anyone other than me? Priority to knowing scum reads.

Well last night I was holding off talking about something because I wanted to see how people reacted to fire bound's reaction to the vote on him. I also wanted to reread through Victor - I have the most horrible time reading people who quote stripe - but I found his reasoning kind of odd for voting fire bound. I didn't have much of a read on fire at the time or really until tonight, but I thought the reasoning was odd. I could see a vote because he seems like newbscum who doesn't want to push someone or something along those lines, but the flying under the radar thing felt odd.

I was wondering if anyone would note that. Would you characterize fire bound as being the person flying under the radar and not even so much as mention me? I've expected to get some flack because I've been asking people questions and feeling around but not actually pushing anything. But, I haven't. Considering that this often gets me accusations of flying under the radar at my homesite, I thought it odd. And then I remembered 2b1 not giving a read on me because I'm walling. I haven't walled, so I don't know what that's about. Anyway it makes me feel like fire bound is being pushed because he's an easy push because he does look like scum who's lost.

So, Victor probably. Not so sure about 2b1 as that seems a bit easy. Looking for another interaction somewhere that I want to see if it happens organically so I'm not going to push that.

I'm rolling Dooku's reactions around and want to read his first game to see how he reacted to suspicion or questions as scum because he seems a bit unnecessarily pissy at questions directed to him which seem odd given that he asks questions.

My town reads are you and fire bound (unless I'm being overly soft and played by the fatalistic tone, but I don't think I'm wrong there.)

[Tammy]

Ah so that's why you mentioned the going from passive to aggressive.

I realize you want me to vote, but it's not going to happen until I want to vote.

[Tammy]

Ray, what is your full opinion on Tammy's post here?

What is your full opinion on my posts?

If there's anything you want to ask me, ask me. I won't bite.

ICs from other games that I have observed seemed to be pretty aggressive. I find your playing style to be refreshing but it makes me feel a bit too comfortable around you. I am unsure if you are doing this as a strategy or that's just how you usually play.[/quote]

It's partly how I play and partly an approach to the game here. When I first started playing mafia, I played like I am here. I've never been a good early player; I'm much better when I have more information to analyze, but I got accused of being too floaty, so I tried learning how to be aggressive early and get the game going but then it came across condescending, which while I am condescending sometimes, isn't what I wanted to do either, so I started to settle back into my early playstyle which works for me. I don't tend to get aggressive unless I feel like I really have a bite, and usually not early.

But I also decided I didn't want to push the game in any particular direction. You need to work out what is scummy or not and explain your thought processes, etc. So, I figured I would just work on getting you to explain yourselves and ask questions and go from there. Though if you seem too comfortable, it's just because I'm nice and friendly, or at least that's what Mina said would make me a good ic when I told her I would.

[Tammy]

Skimread, nothing jumped out at me, but a few minor things to say.

Firebrand recently started playing a few cards that strengthen my scumread, and Tammy looks like a potential buddy after her most recent posts, so I'm interested in hammering.

This is *not* intent to hammer, do not claim based on it

This is something of a prod-dodge, and I apologise for it, I really hate prod-dodging.

In twelve hours, I will be back either with intent to hammer or continuing on my merry Dooku tunnel.

I'm taking this as a scum claim. I think fire bound looks lost and he looks like he's at his breaking point. He reads to me as if he doesn't really know what to do and he doesn't know why he's getting attacked; I don't understand how anyone with any experience doesn't pull back some and give him some space. It feels more like scum who sees their easy mislynch slipping away as he starts to gain support wants to make sure it happens.

If you do think we're somehow buddies, I'd prefer you lynch me not the guy who's breaking.

VOTE: 2b1s

[Tammy]

There's still something that I'm working out, but it could be nothing. That will have to wait for another interaction or later.

This might be my last post until Sunday. I have family coming in soon, and we have the funeral tomorrow. I'm not sure how long family will be staying here tomorrow after the funeral, but I will have very limited time for mafia until they leave, so I doubt very seriously you will see me in this game until then.

[Tammy]

Hi house!

I said I'd post today, but I have another funeral to go to today. (Not my family this one, a good friends dad passed away). I'm not sure how much energy I'll have for mafia when I get home, so tomorrow most likely.

[Tammy]

I look at his (#175) post as a townish. I approve of him claiming interest to hammer rather than intent, because it was a more reasonable use of his prod-dodge while also giving him more time to study the thread. I feel as if the more scummy thing to do would have been to claim intent right then and there to get the ball rolling to Firebound's hammer as fast as possible

I don't follow why this is townish. If he'd said he was going to hammer more than a week before deadline he'd garner even more heat. Better to make it seem like what you're doing is protown. If he'd hammered at that point and fir bound flipped town, he'd be lynched tomorrow most likely. Scum do sometimes test the waters to see if their actions will fly without them paying too much for it.

[Tammy]

I hate "one of x and y must be scum, but they can't be both scum" type of posts.

But I want to hear dooku own explanation on this.

Let's say you are scum, and x and y are town. You push a mislynch on x. He flips town. Than you can say "Shit, then not x is the scum but y. Let's lynch him!" and you don't even need to explain your (arctifical) reads on y. Just link the post when you said "one of x and y must be scum, but they can't be both scum". If y flips, then the town might lynch you on D3, but that is D3. Of course nut sure that you will be able to push a mislynch on either of them, but until x and y die, you will be able to say "Meh, I said, we should lynch x and y, see, we lynched z and he was town." So the point is that you won’t necessarily be suspected, even if you push a mislynch. But when the town lynches someone else, you can say, “Guys, you should have lynched x or y, but not z.”
Whereas, if you said “x/y is scum”, or “x and y is scum”, and the town lynched x/y, and they flipped town, then you will be under pressure. Of course it doesn’t mean you would die D2, but at least your mislynch would result some consequences.
(sorry for language mistakes, I am not a native speaker)

No matter how much you dislike it, this is a common thing you will see in games. Sometimes it's scum trying to look like they're scumhunting but it can just as often come from town. More than once I've been in a situation where I thought an interaction didn't look tvt ot svs but felt very confident one of them was scum. In the situation where it's town making that proclamation, they'll be trying to figure out which one is which, but this is also player dependent.

[Tammy]

"If Dooku became mod-confirmed, firebrand would be my vote." (#124) I look at his post here as a proclaimed commitment to stay on Dooku's trail while also criticizing Firebound's failure to commit to something. I find it somewhat hypocritical since he was prepared to hammer Firebound, not Dooku, thus breaking his commitment

I can't hammer Dooku because he's literally not hammerable. There isn't a fucking L-1 wagon on him. I don't even know what "prepared to hammer Firebound, not Dooku" could possibly mean.

Dooku is a better lynch than Fire. Fire is still a perfectly valid lynch and holy shit when that slot flips scum Tammy is 100% next.

Even if Fire is not scum, Fire has become such a good information lynch at this point due to the sheer number of people investing in the wagon.

I probably shouldn't be posting right now, I'm kinda mad, but fuck this. Fire seems scummy and everyone ignoring that in favour of attacking the person WHO WANTS TO HAMMER A SCUMMY SLOT FOR BEING SCUMMY isn't playing the game.

There is a serious disconnect between you thinking that dooku is a better lynch than fire, but then saying "when fire flips scum..." If you are so convinced the two of us are partners, that is the avenue you should be pursuing, not the dooku one.

Also, I fail to see how you can be *mad* in this game. The majority of this game are new people learning how to play this game. I can see bring mad in any other queue, but not this one, so this just feels really disingenuous.

[Tammy]

I can't hammer Dooku because he's literally not hammerable. There isn't a fucking L-1 wagon on him. I don't even know what "prepared to hammer Firebound, not Dooku" could possibly mean.

QFT. "Prepared to hammer Firebound, not Dooku" show's a complete lack of awareness for where the wagons actually are and what they're doing.

To be honest, I actually find this a town trait, so sure, something good came of this.

He *was* at l-1 when you claimed your first intent.

[Tammy]

What are your thoughts regarding 2b1s' claim of hammer intent?

How do you feel about dooku's posting as of late?

What do you think of tammy's posts?

Interesting. The two stars of the show, and the IC who only you had the mind to scrutinize.

I like this.

-Tammy is... facilitating. Doesn't stay put. I cannot get a read, but I am seeing good ideas and concepts and behavior that I should take notes on, regardless of alignment. The breaking of different thoughts into different posts is convenient and probably easier to read than my quote-riddled posts.

heh, ive been called scattered before.

There are a couple schools of thought on posting. Some people really like quote stripes. I have a hard time reading them and people who do them, and so do others.

I prefer what I've been doing here, making short posts intersped with longer posts of thoughts, but some people hate the spam-like posts.

Do what works for you.

[Tammy]

Hi Tammy, sorry about your loss.

I'd like to rattle your chain a bit, but that can wait a while.

First impressions have me thinking Dooku is scum, but I'm not putting a lot of stock in that read because day one shenanigans always result in unreliable reads for me.

Thank you.

Go for it.

[Tammy]

And I am waiting for some IC posts. What's up Tammy?

You'll have to wait a little longer for some posts for me; I just found out about a death in the family and I need to wake up and make some calls. I will be back later today though, but I at least wanted to get the intro post up.

If this is the case, I can totally understand that. I am sorry.

These posts suggest a connection between Count Dooku & Tammy (from Count Dooku's perspective).

VOTE: Dani
I am really looking forward to play with you guys!

This kind of entrance always gives me pause. Sometimes it's genuine, but sometimes it's scum not knowing what to say so saying they're happy to play is a kind of way to look happy and play up to the player list.

I just looked at your other game to see how you entered and you tried to excuse your play ahead of time and flipped scum on day two. In that regard this feels a little more relaxed and is of less concern.

This feels like scum soft defending her buddy.

If she had expressed her suspicion, then came back later with ISO analysis in a follow-up post, that would have looked natural, but having both the suspicion and the ready-made explanation in the same post is blatant prefab.

Guh?

How is being suspicious over a tell I look for, checking his entrance to his other game and finding he tried to excuse him being a lurker because he didn't know anything, and thinking it was different in tone different than me doing it later.

I figure its my job to get interactions and share what I've learned about scum behavior over time.

[Tammy]

Not answering the random questions, and I feel that answering the questions is anti-town (not that that ever seems to stop town from answering them).

@TheBreeze
1. I cannot see those "interesting roles"...
2. 1 onsite, and some IRL.
3. Yes, I have. No, it didn't hurt me. And I think it will barely ever hurt me. 99% advantage, 1% disadvantage.
4. That is something that I can't answer. And I think nobody can answer it. Because "How well" is relative.
5. I checked it pretty frequently yesterday. Today this is the first time.
I did post another post (5) so I think I don't have to answer your last question.

Well, if I think about it, I don't like the first RQS question either.
...
This is not a strong scum-read, but for now:VOTE: The Breeze

That collection of posts pings hard. The idea that random questions are bad had already entered the thread, but he didn't consider it until the oppurtunity to put someone at undeclared L-1 presented itself.

When you pulled up the collection of posts that pinged, why did you skip over the other posts in between? That thought progression and vote didn't seem so odd that way.

More defending of Dooku. Why address posts that don't ping when discussing the ones that do?

I don't know what you're asking me here?

I was addressing 2b1s's comment about posts that ping. He says it was a collection of posts that pinged, but he cut out a couple posts in between that show him thinking about stuff, which I think looks less suspicious than cutting out those posts.

I wanted to know why he's jumping ahead and cutting out stuff. That kind of thing looks like constructing a narrative rather than looking at the posts as they come in the thread.

[Tammy]

And I am waiting for some IC posts. What's up Tammy?

You'll have to wait a little longer for some posts for me; I just found out about a death in the family and I need to wake up and make some calls. I will be back later today though, but I at least wanted to get the intro post up.

If this is the case, I can totally understand that. I am sorry.

These posts suggest a connection between Count Dooku & Tammy (from Count Dooku's perspective).

VOTE: Dani
I am really looking forward to play with you guys!

This kind of entrance always gives me pause. Sometimes it's genuine, but sometimes it's scum not knowing what to say so saying they're happy to play is a kind of way to look happy and play up to the player list.

I just looked at your other game to see how you entered and you tried to excuse your play ahead of time and flipped scum on day two. In that regard this feels a little more relaxed and is of less concern.

This feels like scum soft defending her buddy.

If she had expressed her suspicion, then came back later with ISO analysis in a follow-up post, that would have looked natural, but having both the suspicion and the ready-made explanation in the same post is blatant prefab.

Guh?

How is being suspicious over a tell I look for, checking his entrance to his other game and finding he tried to excuse him being a lurker because he didn't know anything, and thinking it was different in tone different than me doing it later.

I figure its my job to get interactions and share what I've learned about scum behavior over time.

I explained in the post you quoted.

Well then explain it better because I don't get it.

[Tammy]

@House
So I am scum because (in your opinion) Tammy fends me??

Not just that she defended you, it was the way she did it.

The post was constructed to excuse behavior.

I think I'm bring a good ic.

[Tammy]

Hello everyone
This is my first game ever and i am still learning it, so if i am a bit silent initially that is not because im lurking.

Here is dooku' entrance post in his last game as scum. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.

[Tammy]

Most of her defending of Dooku I can write off as IC defending anoob, but that post raised major flags by how it was constructed.

So, you don't like that I saw something I consider scummy but is personality dependent and metad him?

[Tammy]

House, let's say dooku is town.

Does this mean you don't think tammy is scum?

I'd rather say Tammy and Dooku are scum together, lynch them both and call it a day.

Nope! Sorry.

[Tammy]

@House
Have you ever heard about pocketing?

I am waiting for your answer.

Let me know how that goes for you.

If it wears on your nerves too badly, I can provide the phone number of a support group for people who are still waiting on answers.

Please don't.

This is a newbie game and I get that you're still a newb, but I refuse to allow you or anyone to create a hostile environment here.

Also, what is up with your attitude? In ffx, I don't remember the self important vitriol. In fact you were self-deprecating and dropping the newb card as much as you could get.

[Tammy]

What is pocketing?

[Tammy]

@Tammy: If Dooku thinks I'm scum now, he ain't seen nothing yet, has he?

I don't know what you're asking me.

[Tammy]

Oh I just saw the sig.

Dooku

It's not about saying it, and it is highly player dependent. But often times scum don't know how to enter a game, so they may try to seem excited about the game or the player list, etc.

It doesn't mean you can't say you're happy about playing the game.

[Tammy]

Dooku, if you want to see how sad and misguided your vote is, meta me (or wait for Tammy, she seems to know by town and scum games).

This is my textbook town game. I just write a weird textbook.

I've never seen you as scum. I've one town game, and I couldn't decide on you until you came up with the vampire theory that I didn't think came from scum.

And besides, if you think I'm scum why are you appealing to the accuracy of my read?

[Tammy]

Totes who I am (check my GTKAS for details).

I do go overboard at times, though. I'm working on it, but obviously not enough.

I'm sorry for the insults, I get easily frustrated when people don't understand what is painfully obvious to me, because, ironically, I feel if I know something that it should be obvious to anyone else with half a brain (context from GTKAS explains why I feel that way).


And this post has nothing at all to do with the thread, sorry about that.

Having a disorder does not excuse poor behavior.

And again, you were nothing like this in ffx.

What is painfully obvious to you is painfully wrong.

(And if it is not in your capabilities of being insulting, please stay out of this queue. Mafia gets heated and gods know I've been a jerk, but it has no place in a queue designed to introduce people how to play the game.)

/soapbox

[Tammy]

No, sorry.

[Tammy]

You're free to lynch me if you don't like my playstyle though!

[Tammy]

Okay, but if you're going to lynch people because you don't like the way they are posting, you're going to have trouble finding actual scum. It's a better vote than fire bound though! But why aren't you voting 2b1s?

Well since victor replaced out a couple of things I was wanting to see how he would react to fire bound's reaction. I also wondered if he'd keep ignoring me. Also also he asked a couple questions that went unanswered and I wondered if he would go back to that, but now I cant :/

[Tammy]

Hopefully I can answer the last 2 before I go to bed

Is the post you lost the answer to both those questions?

[Tammy]

I refuse to rehash yesterday's drama, please stop bringing it up.

Just don't do it again.

[Tammy]

House none of that is interacting with me about what I asked.

[Tammy]

I'm not insulted!

Except for not liking my play style :p (normally I don't have several days worth of posts to catch up on or wouldn't comment on some of the things I have.)

[Tammy]

Huh where'd my post go

Oh I was referring to his here and wondering what you lost.

You did answer about dooku, never mind.

[Tammy]

Merry Christmas!

Or happy holiday if you celebrate anything else.

[Tammy]

I got some stuff going on with family for the holidays, so I will be inactive until the 26th. I suppose I'll use that day as my catchup day. Should I request V/LA for this?

Also, UNVOTE: Tammy Although, I do not like your posting style, I like the quality of your posts. Hopefully you took the hint that this wasn't a serious vote ^^

I didn't think it was serious, for the most part :p

The posting style thing is something you'll see debated in several games as people have different ideas.

[Tammy]

I was addressing 2b1s's comment about posts that ping. He says it was a collection of posts that pinged, but he cut out a couple posts in between that show him thinking about stuff, which I think looks less suspicious than cutting out those posts.

The cut posts don't change shit, there are no new ideas in those cut posts.

It wasn't that there were new ideas present in those posts, but it did look like there was a progression of thoughts. If I ould find it suspicious it would be that he was following someone else's suspicions, but since he's new that's not a suspicious act.

[Tammy]

Most of her defending of Dooku I can write off as IC defending anoob, but that post raised major flags by how it was constructed.

So, you don't like that I saw something I consider scummy but is personality dependent and metad him?

You performed all that in the same post. That is why it looks fabricated. A normal process would be:

Post 1: This looks fishy.
-time lapse- (meta diving, etc)
Post 2: Oh, it's 'k.

By putting it all in the same post, it looks like a proactive defense for behavior that you are concerned may come back to haunt Dooku instead of a suspicion that is put to rest.

After all, why post about it if you are no longer suspicious of it?

A couple things.

1). That's not a normal process for me, especially in this situation. I meta whenever a question arises. It more goes like. Player x is doing something that I've caught scum for before, but recently it's not caught scum and has turned out to be a player dependent or personality tell. I wonder if he has any other games, and how he entered as that could be telling. Oh hey he has one other game, he was scum, and his entrance post was him excusing himself ahead of time for his play. Hmm that's a bit different in tone, so maybe my original suspicion is nothing in this case especially considering that he lost that game and doesn't have another game. In that instance his entrance might be a bit more tentative than this one.

2) I make note of suspicious things all the time even if I don't find the person scummy, and in this instance especially I'm going to talk about things I've picked up on over the years.

3). Whether or not I find it of less concern than I originally did, I still want him to interact with me about it.

I'm not sure where you're getting proactive defense because all in same post. I don't even think that way.

[Tammy]

And I am waiting for some IC posts. What's up Tammy?

You'll have to wait a little longer for some posts for me; I just found out about a death in the family and I need to wake up and make some calls. I will be back later today though, but I at least wanted to get the intro post up.

If this is the case, I can totally understand that. I am sorry.

These posts suggest a connection between Count Dooku & Tammy (from Count Dooku's perspective).

But it did just strike me what's off in these points.

You say there's a connection to me from dooku' perspective, but that actually doesn't make sense. It would maybe make sense if I'm a random person, but I'm the IC.

And how is him being nice and saying sorry for a loss a connection?

[Tammy]

I'm getting ready to take my turn driving, but real quick.

I wasn't saying you can't suspect me because I'm the ic but he drew a connection due to him asking where I was. I do agree it would be a little suspicious normally but because I am the ic and that's what he was waiting on its nit looking for some random person and therefore is associative. I can probably explain this better later but I've gotta drive now.

[Tammy]

Prod dodge. I will try to catch up today, but I'm spending time with family and I fly back home tomorrow. If not today, definitely tomorrow.

[Tammy]

I am home and catching up. But just to forewarn, I had some frustrating news upon coming home so if I'm bitchy, I'm sorry I'm just in the world's worst mood right now.

[Tammy]

Well I agree that I don't find much (if anything) suspicious about Dooku and you pair in particular but I just didn't like the expression. If Dooku said it I'd be perfectly fine with it.
I just like preemptively shooting down things that can potentially be exploited later =P

Well I mean, there's not a connection between me and dooku, and it dawned on me later that oh it actually made sense he called for me. (Otherwise I'd have felt very weird.)

[Tammy]

I'm on my iPad for a bit longer, so quoting is hard, but I don't like the votes on firebound.

[Tammy]

Page 6-10

Count Dooku

-Still on defense and just defending himself. Not too much different than his newbie 1551 scumgame. This OMGUS I don't like 135 and it's super defensive.

FoS here now

. His other posts don't tell me enough, not sure why I can't read him. His interaction with House-just starting out on page 10 is defensive also.

Posts like this 125 from

The Breeze

continue to look

townie

because he's discussing pressuring other people who might be flying under the radar which is active scumhunting and I agree with this. Even though it is my slot he's doing that too. But is shows active scumhunting so I'm willing to stick with a

townlean

here so far.

deathfisario

starts out still

town

, I really like this 140 because it shows a genuine desire to learn more and apply it to the game and really looks townie to me.

Uh-oh

, I don't like this 171 because he's pushing even harder when he sees Tammy and Rayfrost coming to firebound's defense-almost like he's worried this wagon will lose momentum-makes me reconsider deathfisario now

Rayfrost

continues to be

town

with posts like this 142 which are really good questions that do a good job of trying to determine alignment. I really like what he says here 163 I think him trying to help a newbie in that way seems town-like. He is right on in this 192 absolutely correct and 194, he's strong town to me now.

Tammy's

quoting many posts with one line answers doesn't tell me much but makes me feel uneasy. IIRC, one newbie game I watched off and on of hers, because a friend of mine was in it, she was town and really walled her posts and got irritated with people who didn't read her as town. Something to take note of here. This post here 158 is the first one I've seen that looks fairly townie and I agree with it. I like 168 as well. Really like this one as well 183 Tammy is now

leaning town

for me.

This post by

2birds

screams

scum

to me 175, he pops up to declare intent to hammer, then says don't claim-which to me just looks like he is actually trying to get a claim by reverse psychology which scum can do to rolefish, yuck this post is so bad I really want to vote 2birds right now without even reading further. 187 can I just say yuck to this and move on? bleh

Dani

pops up again, post doesn't tell me enough,

null

House

just now replaces in here,

null

.

Heh, I'd cut this down just to me, but I've only been in two newbie games, and the town one which you must have watched was me as a replacement. I might have walled early as replacements are different but Im interested in your memor y of me being frustrated at being read town. I was frustrated at malakittens and notscience, both of whom have claimed to be able to read me in the past. I've particularly found it frustrating to deal with malakittens who really isn't good at meta reads at all to keep proclaiming she knows how and getting it wrong game after game. But if you had watched that game, I was also interested in a couple people not being suspicious of me who should have been.

[Tammy]

And this is 2 games in a row where people tell me I only post impressions and cast suspicions here and there but never scumhunt. I guess there is still a transition hurdle from playing offline to online.

So instead of fixing the problem, you make excuses for continuing the behavior?

Maybe this will motivate you to reconsider...

VOTE: deathfisaro

Is this a reaction test?

[Tammy]

422:
Null
Townread
Mixed bag
Null
Scum
Scumlean
Scumlean
Town
Statistically my favourite word has to be scum, null and town would tie for 2nd place.

Incorrect. Scumlean is just another way of saying null/scum, which places null solidly in 1st place.

Huh?

[Tammy]

423:
Speaking of terrible lists, "Town: Everybody else" ...

... that isn't scum is, by default, town.

Nothing terrible about my list.

To clarify on this... in a closed setup, my list would be terrible. But when we know how many scum there are, then it's a little ridiculous having scum reads on more players than there are scum.

Actually, it's more worrisome to me when there are too many town reads (unless you are me or MINA).

Even the best Scumhunter isn't going to get it right first try, more than the amount of scum reads is normal.

[Tammy]

420: The players in this forum are not people I know. So when people post, there are alignment related findings and there are personality related findings. Those two are for the most part independent and it helps me to see them independently. Therefore I post about the two independently. All I'm saying is "nice person != towny".

421: I placed a strong vote (would almost be final for day 1 unless something ridiculous happens) after all the consideration and for some reason you say I'm continuing to not cast any votes? I must have a serious lack of understanding of how voting system works then, because I clearly don't know how to place multiple votes on one person.

422:
Null
Townread
Mixed bag
Null
Scum
Scumlean
Scumlean
Town
Statistically my favourite word has to be scum, null and town would tie for 2nd place.
It's funny because your first read list in the previous game had 5 null reads in a 9 player game.

423:
Speaking of terrible lists, "Town: Everybody else" ...

General:
Well after having replied to all that, thanks to you I have 1 fewer null reads. Your slot was hard to read, and your replace in didn't improve any content. But now you've supplied me enough.
I see the 4 chain posts was strategic. Now you're going to say "Null read is a typical read for scum to give their buddies and now Depi is only null reading Dani therefore Dani and Depi are scum team."
Overall this makes House town, just not a nice guy =P

This is bona fide scumposting.

Depi feels like caught scum and is trying to do damage control. He thought I actually had him pegged as scum over a D1 read (when in fact he was merely my most likely candidate), and reacted like caught scum instead of incensed town.

His claim that my chain posts were "strategic" was a dead giveaway, as they were certainly not strategic. They were merely, "oh yeah, and..." posts. That he thought I had a master plan to paint him as scum and reacted by town reading me without providing solid reason for that read smacks of guilty conscience & appeasing.

If he was town, he should have been furious that I would go to such lengths to paint him as scum on weak grounds and chain mislynches when Dani is universally nullread due to her inactivity.

I watched a game once in which your mentor fake claimed a guilty on this mod. She took it in stride, thought he was town, and continued to scum hunt for the rest of her time alive. He declared no town would behave that way, and convinced that town would be incensed and throw a fit moved forward on his path of lies. They were both town.

Town lost that game. The moral of the story? Besides don't fake claim guilties? Reactions are personality /player dependent. How does his behavior match up to getting lynched in that other game?

[Tammy]

423:
Speaking of terrible lists, "Town: Everybody else" ...

... that isn't scum is, by default, town.

Nothing terrible about my list.

To clarify on this... in a closed setup, my list would be terrible. But when we know how many scum there are, then it's a little ridiculous having scum reads on more players than there are scum.

Actually, it's more worrisome to me when there are too many town reads (unless you are me or MINA).

Even the best Scumhunter isn't going to get it right first try, more than the amount of scum reads is normal.

Terrible. Just terrible.

There are two scum in these games. Having 3+ scum reads is just a way for players to leave their options open, which is pro-scum.

Whoever told yu that is a liar.

[Tammy]

Why is 2birds town to you?

The game has two scum, not three.

I have my reads, and I've made my vote. I'm done until I read something that changes my mind.

The problem with playing town is that town... all town... waffles and questions their instincts. It's aggravating, and I'm tired of catering to it.

So you didn't answer my question then. You can't be 100% sure of anyone's alignment unless you are scum yourself. I can see scum only have the minimum number of scumreads. Why fabricate more? I can see town having more than two if they aren't sure. And they shouldn't be 100% sure. You are spending an awful lot of time saying you are town. I get it. I'd like to know why you think 2birds is town. Can you just answer that question please?

I think I love you. (Tbf I loved your slot beforehand)

Though saying you're town isn't a horrible thing, but I say that because of my and the town crew's propensity to declare towniness.

Right now I'm trying to figure out if house really is town and spouting stuff from I don't know where or bluffing.

[Tammy]

Why is 2birds town to you?

The game has two scum, not three.

I have my reads, and I've made my vote. I'm done

until I read something that changes my mind

.

The problem with playing town is that town... all town... waffles and questions their instincts. It's aggravating, and I'm tired of catering to it.

What part of that looks like 100% to you?

Stop misrepping me.

I'll check back in later.

That is not misrepping you. Not in the least, wtf?

[Tammy]

...And I thought Tammy's posts were spammy

What have you done to the thread, House?

Snowstorm calls me spammy Tammy

[Tammy]

1). That's not a normal process for me, especially in this situation. I meta whenever a question arises. It more goes like. Player x is doing something that I've caught scum for before, but recently it's not caught scum and has turned out to be a player dependent or personality tell. I wonder if he has any other games, and how he entered as that could be telling. Oh hey he has one other game, he was scum, and his entrance post was him excusing himself ahead of time for his play. Hmm that's a bit different in tone, so maybe my original suspicion is nothing in this case especially considering that he lost that game and doesn't have another game. In that instance his entrance might be a bit more tentative than this one.

So with the knowledge that I'm aggressive, tunnel-prone, and generally bad at making reads, you decided that I'm scummy anyway?

2b1s

: Early game: he tries everything to push a mislynch on me, even lies. Nowadays: imo no alignment indicative post. Lean scum.

Bullshit, where'd I lie?

This fucking pings.

Apparently asking people you're planning on hammering is "scummy" now, and I apologise and will quickhammer in future.

he pops up to declare intent to hammer, then says don't claim-which to me just looks like he is actually trying to get a claim by reverse psychology

Try reading that post and the next one from me again.

Dooku has been weak-scumreading/OMGUSing me this entire day but didn't vote me until he saw the oppurtunity to put me at L-1. Given the L-1 debacle I called him out during RVS, I'm starting to see a scum gameplan of "put people at L-1 and hope someone hammers".

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Dooku

The irony of that vote is not lost on me.

I'm just responding to the first part. Hoe do I have knowledge of how you play? I don't get the comment directed to me.

[Tammy]

420: The players in this forum are not people I know. So when people post, there are alignment related findings and there are personality related findings. Those two are for the most part independent and it helps me to see them independently. Therefore I post about the two independently. All I'm saying is "nice person != towny".

421: I placed a strong vote (would almost be final for day 1 unless something ridiculous happens) after all the consideration and for some reason you say I'm continuing to not cast any votes? I must have a serious lack of understanding of how voting system works then, because I clearly don't know how to place multiple votes on one person.

422:
Null
Townread
Mixed bag
Null
Scum
Scumlean
Scumlean
Town
Statistically my favourite word has to be scum, null and town would tie for 2nd place.
It's funny because your first read list in the previous game had 5 null reads in a 9 player game.

423:
Speaking of terrible lists, "Town: Everybody else" ...

General:
Well after having replied to all that, thanks to you I have 1 fewer null reads. Your slot was hard to read, and your replace in didn't improve any content. But now you've supplied me enough.
I see the 4 chain posts was strategic. Now you're going to say "Null read is a typical read for scum to give their buddies and now Depi is only null reading Dani therefore Dani and Depi are scum team."
Overall this makes House town, just not a nice guy =P

This is bona fide scumposting.

Depi feels like caught scum and is trying to do damage control. He thought I actually had him pegged as scum over a D1 read (when in fact he was merely my most likely candidate), and reacted like caught scum instead of incensed town.

His claim that my chain posts were "strategic" was a dead giveaway, as they were certainly not strategic. They were merely, "oh yeah, and..." posts. That he thought I had a master plan to paint him as scum and reacted by town reading me without providing solid reason for that read smacks of guilty conscience & appeasing.

If he was town, he should have been furious that I would go to such lengths to paint him as scum on weak grounds and chain mislynches when Dani is universally nullread due to her inactivity.

I watched a game once in which your mentor

Stopped reading right there.

I don't even know who you are referring to.

House.

But the who isn't important the rest is.

[Tammy]

I mean Wake.

[Tammy]

Okay I still like the fire bound slot. I like the way she's developing her reads and it fits with my read of that slot. Okay this is a bit dangerous but it will take a lot to shake the way I feel about this slot.

Still think Ray is town.

I'm a bit weirded out by 2b1s's post to me. I thought that post was quite clearly about dooku whom I had meta'd in the middle of my thought so I have no idea why he thought it was about him. (heh until this game I thought his slot was a hydra ) It kinda feels like he's trying to draw some connection to me with that recent question. Like I'm supposed to know he has bad reads or whatever, when I could'n't possibly know.

House is well he's weird. He's playing with a lot more hostility and weird notions than what I saw of him in the previous game we played together. Like what the fuck is oh there's two scum and you have more than two suspects so that's wrong about. To the new people playing this game, if House turns out to be town, please do not listen to any of the stuff he's been saying because it's not actually accurate. You are allowed to find more than two people scummy in a game even if there are only two scum. Also scum lean does not mean null. there's a spectrum it goes Town-------townlean-------null-------scumlean---------scum. There are variations; I literally have no idea what he's spewing, and right now I can't figure out if he's just bullshitting because he's trying to sound more experienced/knowledgeable than he is or if he's scum trying to sound like he's being a good townie.

But doesn't matter much I GUESS because we're lynch 2B1S today and we can see how that goes after. Though if 2b1s flips town, I want everyone to look at the way that House characterized other people's pushes and then tried to direct the lynch to anywhere but there until the end of the day because that is suspect as hell. I'm actually no sure what I'll think about House if 2b1s flips town though, so disregard this if so.

Most everyone else is a big null because NULL is an awesome word and it's day one and we can't be certain of shit. So, we'll see what happens.

[Tammy]

EBWOP: if 2b1s flips scum

[Tammy]

Wake isn't your mentor? He doesn't mod you off site and introduced you here? You're not hydraing with him? I got the impression he was your mentor.

But just for everyone here to see what bs house is spewing. I thought his views didn't make sense. here is house's reads list in the only game we've played together. I would like for you all to notice how he differentiates between his null versus null leaning other way reads. I would also like you to notice how he plays the newb card here. He's concerned people are going to dissect his reads here and wants everyone to recognize he's a newb/doesn't know what he's doing. He was town here. His tone/behavior doesn't match up here at all. IM not sure what to make of it.

[Tammy]

I had a very frustrating day at work today and am very near exploding. I'm putting this game off to tomorrow.

I do need to go back and reread though. I was pretty convinced 2b1s was scum, and I thought that some of House's behavior coupled with the timing of Victor's vote on fire bound and 2b1s's intent signified they were partners. But that was wrong, so I need to reset and reread with that blank slate.

It doesn't change my my town reads on Rayfrost or the fire bound slot, I don't think, but that's pretty much all I got.

[Tammy]

Tammy, if you had to make something of it, what would you make of it?

Yesterday? That it was 2b1s' partner trying to cause a distraction.

Today? Not so sure. Could be scum being distracting or could just be town who is learning how to play the game himself working some stuff out. Not sure I'm going to feel confident in anything until I reread though.

[Tammy]

There are two scum in these games. Having 3+ scum reads is just a way for players to leave their options open, which is pro-scum.

There can be different degrees of scum reading. For example, I could be reading 2 different people as scum logically but also have a 3rd scum read based on a gut feeling. I see many sitations where it would be useful for us not to limit ourselves to just 2 scum reads.

Which makes it all the easier for scum to line up mislynches. Reading more as sum that there is as sum is pro-scum.

No actually it's not. Day one especially people have less information/ don't know anything. There are very very very few people I would trust on a definite scum team day one because it's not feasible. Very very very few people plan enough ahead of time to line up mislynches, and especially not in a newbie queue.

In fact, I'm usually more suspect of people who have definite reads on everyone in the game too early because it usually means they're trying to fit reads into a hole rather than let them happen organically.

[Tammy]

Hi guys!

So from my understanding, no kill = PR was responsible or Mafia just didn't do anything?

PR is most likely, though with night being over a holiday mafia not doing anything is possible too.

[Tammy]

@SilverWolf
I dislike being redundant.
That said, we are playing Mafia, meaning your concern is valid, meaning I've been a hindrance up to this point. Apologies.

No further mention of my stance on the 2b1s wagon yesterDay? Seeing as you mentioned it once before, I find it strange that you exclude it from your reasons now. How do you interpret that post?

edit: ninja'd. gimme a sec.

I don't understand this post.

[Tammy]

I just noticed fire bound posting in a large, non newbie. *paranoia*

[Tammy]

#471 seems to be of no consequence to anyone, regarding the subject matter or the poster.

I'm not sure what you meant by 471 being of no consequence to anyone, but looking back at 471 that post came right near deadline when 2b1s was at L-1. Why did you completely ignore the wagon to ask dooku about something that had happened rather early?

VOTE: dani

pedit: sometimes scum will replace out of one game and then sign up in another. One of the reasons I was town reading him so hard was because he sounded so lost and fragile; it surprises me he'd leave here and then sign up for a large if he was so lost.

[Tammy]

Understandably, most of SilverWolf's favored posts in her catch-up readslist are posts that either see her slot as town or defended firebound12: the only exception is Dooku's #391 readlist. It would be really funny if she were scum. Unfortunately for this analysis, a town player is just as likely to favor someone for seeing them as town in a pinch.

I don't understand what you are saying here.

[Tammy]

*palm* My bad.
You could've just ignored me too, though. I'll keep my mouth shut on the other thing, then.
---
SilverWolf, why don't you see Tammy voting for 2b1s as scum white-knighting?
---
Just finished reading Mini 77, and I was completely wrong about who was scum.

Do you see me as scum white-knighting for voting 2b1s?

[Tammy]

I'm so sorry.

I would have never thought that someone would be at L-1 that soon in the start of day.

I would say lynch me for my mistake, but lynching me would cause us to lose, so understand that people make mistakes sometimes. I'm going to bed as I have a class in the morning, but I promise I will reread the game tomorrow night and give you my thoughts but I understand if you don't want to listen to them.

(I will not be around on Sunday, so I will do all I can tomorrow. Also, school starts next week and I never know how busy the first week is going to be, so I my activity will probably be spotty until the weekend.)

[Tammy]

@Silver Thank you.

@Tammy as the IC, what is your opinion about this popcorn massclaim? Is it indeed helpful for town? You can't lie about it, can you? I mean I think it is mafia theory. If not please tell me that it is not, so you can lie.

I just got home and need to respond to some other people, but real quick.

No, I can't lie about theory and quite frankly I'm no sure about how I feel about a massclaim. I feel good about them some game and bad about them some game and usually only like it if I think the mass claim could help with figuring out the game.

Here we have a potential of 2 power roles, which could narrow down who the scum is out of the remaining four unless counterclaim shenanigans happen. The potential investigative role potentially has two results that they could share. There could be some merit to the hypocop situation as if there is an investigative role they are likely to die tonight.

As far as this game goes, I'm not going to push for it one way or the other. This is you guys' game and you need to put your thoughts out there and get a feel for what you want to do and see how it works either way. I'll give you the pros and cons of it, but ultimately, it's your decision how you want to do it.

We do need to think about no lynching today though, but that will obviously come after the decision to mass claim is up. No lynching when you're at even before mass claim is a good idea when you don't have a good consensus town read that you think is going to die and want their input. And the no lynching helps to narrow down choices for mylo. While I think that no lynching in some situations is a good idea, I don't think it's a good idea to do it too early. You want a good amount of discussion for the day.

I'm going to go cook dinner and I'll be back. I'm going to get through as much as I possibly can tonight because I doubt very seriously I'm going to be around tomorrow and school starts Monday. The first week is usually busy, and I work very long hours that week, so my activity will probably be spotty until the weekend.

The Breeze - I will respond to you more in full, but in this type of situation at end game never put a vote down and then say "nobody else vote". If you put a vote down at end game, it's because you want that person lynched. Not everybody is going to read the "nobody else vote" or may miss it/not care. And if you are town in this situation and another town person did miss it and vote me, scum would just be able to jump on me for the win.

[Tammy]

Dani is at

L-1

(deathfisaro didn't declare it)
Deja vu

Also, deathfisaro-As a rule, you should announce when you put someone at L-1.

Dani is at L-1

ninja'd by dooku

Oh I must have missed someone's vote, I counted him having 3 votes with mine, apparently it's 4. My bad. How ironic I said we should declare L-1's very early on in the game =P

#471 seems to be of no consequence to anyone, regarding the subject matter or the poster.

I'm not sure what you meant by 471 being of no consequence to anyone, but looking back at 471 that post came right near deadline when 2b1s was at L-1. Why did you completely ignore the wagon to ask dooku about something that had happened rather early?
VOTE: dani

I don't believe you didn't know about it Tammy. It was clearly announced and a big deal was made out of the fact that dani was at L-1. Your vote didn't even make sense. You asked a question and cast a vote. As an experienced player, you should of known better than to do that without even checking. You are damn lucky dani was not a PR. And I can't believe for one second you would vote without reading the thread first and at least letting dani answer your questions. Especially since you were so reluctant to cast your vote yesterday even when Rayfrost kept asking if you were going to vote. And here, you just did it so quickly without a second thought.

I really don't know if you'd be so bold as scum to do this but I can't believe you'd be so careless as town considering how much experience you have. Everyone makes mistakes but now I have a major FoS on you until I can ISO you again and re-read your interactions on this thread again.

It was a terrible mistake and I should have checked. I'd left my tab open from the last post I made and scrolled back to answer questions/address things I wanted to from the night before. I should have checked the most recent vote count but I a) had had a bad couple days at work and was distracted and just trying to get caught up and b) didn't expect someone would be at L-1 that close into the day. I understand if people are mad at me for making a mistake, but it was just a mistake. People make mistakes sometimes, no matter how much experience they have.

Me not voting someone in the first several pages of a game because I'm not sure how I feel about scum reads and me being ready to vote on day two because I do are not the same thing. 2b1s was not scum like I thought he was, which meant that House was not his partner like I thought he was. I don't reread over night but I do think about games overnight and I started getting concerned that Dani could be scum that I had been overlooking.

I am glad that at least she was a vt, and I just hope we have a cop this game who investigated me so that this game isn't lost because I made a mistake.

[Tammy]

Oh and one more thing I don't like Tammy is you doubcasting me like this, especially considering the person defending me is now dead.

I just noticed fire bound posting in a large, non newbie. *paranoia*

Tell us what a person's activities outside of a game has to do with their alignment in this one, especially when that person is no longer a part of this game.

pedit: sometimes scum will replace out of one game and then sign up in another. One of the reasons I was town reading him so hard was because he sounded so lost and fragile; it surprises me he'd leave here and then sign up for a large if he was so lost.

I don't really care what you don't like. I'm not going to avoid bringing up something that could be pertinent because possible scum might not like it. I've had a town read on your slot since firebound had his reaction to 2b1s and victor et al, but firebound replacing out of here and going into another game does make me squicky. It doesn't make you definitely scum, but scum do sometimes replace out of games when they are being pressured and then immediately go into other games. (This has happened before and is so prevalent that if you remember the newbie game you watched that I was in. The person I replaced left that game and went into other games, I told cabd that if anyone noticed that he was playing in another game they were probably going to lynch me for it.)

You're essentially getting after me for scumhunting you. House is new; I wouldn't expect him to know some of the behaviors of scum and how they act. I've generally regarded your slot as town and don't have a huge reason to not town read you, but I'm not going to bring up or mention anything that might make that read take a hit. Not being willing to reassess town or scum reads is a recipe for loss.

[Tammy]

First order of business and this is EXTREMELY important:

If we go forward with a lynch today and we select the wrong person, Scum basically wins. 6 - 1 (Lynch) - 1 (NK) = 2v2 and I don't see any way for us to win in that situation. Regardless of what we decide on though, we shouldn't let anyone here get more than a single votes until the deadline gets closer where we will have a better understanding on what to do. (If the 2 scum are not voting for that person and are online at the same time, they can pull off a win right then and there) We need as much time as physically possible

I would also like to apologize to you guys for being completely useless since the first day ended. It's been very difficult to balance this into my schedule

Calling bullshit on Tammy's hammer so VOTE: Tammy

(For now please do NOT place any more votes on her)

I will be back shortly

What is bullshit on my hammer? Am I scum who did something that would make everyone hate me and therefore want to lynch me the next day or am I just town that made a mistake?

(I'm town that just made a mistake.)

[Tammy]

SilverWolf, why don't you see Tammy voting for 2b1s as scum white-knighting?

Probably because I wasn't in the game at the time and she voted for 2b1s for the same reasoning I did and I liked the vote.

I have no idea why she was defending firebound so much but it's a good question to ask her if you really want to know.

I was in the midst of answering this question when the game was locked; I'll try to recreate it :/

I didn't have a read on firebound until the attack on him. He, in part, felt like town who was being targeted as an easy mislynch by scum, and his reaction seemed completely lost and confused. He seemed to not understand why he was being attacked, he seemed to feel like he was earnestly trying and being attacked from every angle and didn't know why. That seemed like town to me because often times when newb scum are attacked they go aggressive and angry for being caught; they don't tend to feel like they're going to break. (I will also admit that my heart went out to him because I could sympathize. I remember being in one of my first games and trying to figure it out and being attacked for the way I was going about it.)

I'm also of the mind that when someone is showing signs of breaking, and obviously needs space, that they should get it. Mafia is competitive, but it's also a game where we're supposed to have fun, and people need to remember that people are playing this game.

[Tammy]

I don't really care what you don't like. I'm not going to avoid bringing up something that could be pertinent because possible scum might not like it. I've had a town read on your slot since firebound had his reaction to 2b1s and victor et al, but firebound replacing out of here and going into another game does make me squicky. It doesn't make you definitely scum, but scum do sometimes replace out of games when they are being pressured and then immediately go into other games. (This has happened before and is so prevalent that if you remember the newbie game you watched that I was in. The person I replaced left that game and went into other games, I told cabd that if anyone noticed that he was playing in another game they were probably going to lynch me for it.)

You're essentially getting after me for scumhunting you. House is new; I wouldn't expect him to know some of the behaviors of scum and how they act. I've generally regarded your slot as town and don't have a huge reason to not town read you, but I'm not going to bring up or mention anything that might make that read take a hit. Not being willing to reassess town or scum reads is a recipe for loss.

No, You are misunderstanding why I don't like it. After your hammer, I was sure you were scum. So you were accused of WKing me, then cast doubt on me, then the person who defended me is dead. So I thought you were setting me up for a mislynch to win. Also, I'm being judged on something I can't defend-firebound's behavior.

It's just paranoia on my part as I think you are probably town based on your posts and a couple other things.

Ah. That makes sense and makes me feel better. I'd never push for a lynch on something like that. It's just something that made me go "wait was I wrong, maybe I should be looking closer". And sometimes when I have stray thoughts for things I've seen I like to put them out there or I work myself up.

(I completely understand feeling like it's unfair to be judged on behavior you can't defend. I've replaced into enough slots -town and scum- and there's nothing you can do about it. But people are going to worry about things beyond your control or your capacity to defend.)

[Tammy]

firebound12

(replaced by SilverWolf): after a load of mess, managed to get his act together and play the game starting at 186. "No hard stances." (Null)

SilverWolf

(replacing firebound12): seems to catch on quickly. I think she's trying to control the game right now, so that's a (Null).

Silver

: She is active, scumhunts, posts helpful content. But. If firebound was here, I would definitely vote him, so this is half scum - half town.

OK, First of all, I can't speak for firebound, I have no idea what he was thinking or why he said what he did. He is no longer part of the game so I am wondering why he is still being included on any reads that have to do with me? Serious question. Why not read my slot based on my play since I replaced in? I'd say the same thing if it was being strongly townread based on fire's actions as well instead of being scumread because of it.

Dooku-I hate that you have my spot as half town, half scum. That makes no sense whatsoever and I hate that you would vote me if I was firebound instead of SilverWolf.

Explain why please so it makes sense to me.

As much as is it frustrating to deal with your predecessor, there's really nothing you can do about it. I once replaced into a slot and people thought i was a serial killer based on my predecessor. I had to work like hell and still made it to lylo.

The thing is people aren't going to stop reading your predecessor when you replace in and sometimes no matter how well you do, you're still going to be read as scum.

The half-town/half-scum kinda makes sense to me though. (Once in a reads list I put someone in my town and scum list because by gut she was scum by brain she was town, so I was conflicted. People jumped all over me for it, but I couldn't help I felt conflicted.)

[Tammy]

I'm workin on rereading this game, but please give me some time. I'm beyond exhausted and will do what I can over the next couple days.

[Tammy]

Prod dodge. I'm rereading in the moments I get here and there, but it will be a couple days before I have actual time to do anything.

I'm fine going first in the mass claim.

Breeze - The reason I mentioned everyone made mistakes is because my experience was being called into question as if an experienced player can't make a mistake. I don't consider the vote earlier on day one a mistake and wasn't referring to that.

[Tammy]

Vanilla town.

I doubt I'll really be able to do anything today as I have an extremely long day, but I'll be able to start getting caught up on the weekend.

[Tammy]

(Firebound soft claimed a pr day one by the way. Or at least I picked up a pr tell from him.)

[Tammy]

Oh sorry just woke up. Dooku can go next.

[Tammy]

I just got home from work and had a super long day. I'm going to have a couple glasses of wine and try to catch up in my games but there's a good chance I fall asleep.

Can noone vote until I have a chance to at least read this week's stuff? I've pretty much only looked to see if my name was said and have read almost nothing else.

I promise if I don't get caught up today, I will get caught up tomorrow. I have meetings in the morning and early afternoon but I'm free after that and will be getting current.

[Tammy]

@Ray
No, I don't have townreads. Actually I kind of believe that Tammy didn't hammer on purpose, but this is not by any means enough for a townread.

and it shouldn't be. I've accidentally hammered as both alignments before. (One time I actually went through the thread and counted, but missed one, and accidentally hammered.). It's not a mistake that's made often, and scum are usually more careful, but sometimes things happen regardless of alignment.

[Tammy]

I'm a VT. I didn't pick up on your hinting at it, by the way. I tend not to look for PR tells all that much in newbies unless I'm mafia.

Pr tells tend to just fall in your lap sometimes, or maybe I just pick up on some things because I used to have a nasty habit of suspecting and driving a near lynch on a pr day one and if I'd paid more attention wouldn't have.

RegardleSS,

Post 133 literally has him saying he wished he could claim his role.

[Tammy]

Okay I am caught up! I have a couple things to do and then I hope to make some of my thoughts clear. I have a class in the morning and am super tired, so if I dont I promise I will tomorrow after class.

I'm sorry I've been so absent this week. I'm a teacher, and school started this week. The first week is always iffy for me.

Anyway, I'm not sure what scum team would want me dead on night one beyond just being an ic. I know that's probably enough but I was completely wrong day one and wasn't really a danger to anyone, and that's probably in part to how I've chosen to play ic which I'll talk about after the game. So idk.

But the game isn't lost even if we misly ch because if silver jail keeps scum who tries to make the kill were given an extra day, so that's a plus.

As far as things that require real reads and thoughts beyond theory, give me till later tonight or tomorrow, if I fall asleep - which is a real possibility I'm exhausted.

[Tammy]

Yeah, I thought that was pretty obvious and that people would have picked up on it.

I'm not going to be able to give my thoughts before sleeping because I'm about to sleep. But I am caught up. And I promise I will give my thoughts in full when I get home from class in the morning.

[Tammy]

I'm in an extremely bad mood right now, so if I'm bitchy I'm really sorry. I probably shouldn't post, but I promised I'd talk about stuff okay.

[Tammy]

Okay = today

[Tammy]

...and I lost my post. Fucking figures.

Deathfisaros suspicion on silvewolf is weird and I don't know what to make of it. She's the only claimed pr, and even if you didn't pick up on the pr tells there's pretty much no way to be suspicious now. But I'm also left wondering what does he gain from it? I rarely play in newbies but some of their paranoia is off the charts. I'm not sure that it actually feels like paranoia though and wonder if it's more just a means of sticking to a read he doesn't want to change.

He does somewhat make a good point about breeze, though I do wonder something. Breeze - you have experience on another site, right? What site was that and how do the scum perform the nightkill there? ( I have a point here, promise, I'll explain later)

I don't want to lose a post again, so more in a few.

[Tammy]

I still have ray frost as a town read. The only thing that irks me, and I'm not sure if it's alignment relevant is that he puts off content until I make a post.

[Tammy]

But then I don't know who scum is.

I considered the possibility that dooku could also be roled and that's why he was questioning so many people so early. When Ray mentioned him being different than that game he caught him in, it made sense to me.

I've been realizing that I have a hard time scum reading people new at this game because new people drop scum tells that aren't really scummy and everything can be thought of as a newb tell instead, and I have a hard time distinguishing.

The game would have been so much easier if 2b1s/house were scum :/

Anyway, waiting for breeze to answer that question so I can figure out how I feel about what really looks like a town slip.

[Tammy]

...and I lost my post. Fucking figures.

Deathfisaros suspicion on silvewolf is weird and I don't know what to make of it. She's the only claimed pr, and even if you didn't pick up on the pr tells there's pretty much no way to be suspicious now. But I'm also left wondering what does he gain from it? I rarely play in newbies but some of their paranoia is off the charts. I'm not sure that it actually feels like paranoia though and wonder if it's more just a means of sticking to a read he doesn't want to change.

He does somewhat make a good point about breeze, though I do wonder something. Breeze - you have experience on another site, right? What site was that and how do the scum perform the nightkill there? ( I have a point here, promise, I'll explain later)

I don't want to lose a post again, so more in a few.

TheBreeze's self-vote after forcing my claim early felt genuine. I believe him not knowing how scum operate at night was a townslip but I will say why I think this after TheBreeze tells us where else he played and gives a link so I can check it out. Then I will say what lead me to believe this. I don't want to lead him into how to answer this.

Deathfisaro's continued suspicion of me read as someone who is disappointed in my claim because he had the firebound slot as scummy and was hoping for a mislynch of this slot and realized there is no way he is going to get that. I also feel his defense of RayFrost was not warranted there and casting doubt on TheBreeze was motivated by his desire to not have scum narrowed down by PoE.

Also, I will re-read Dooku's scum game one more time, but I believe he is town based on my interactions with him and his desire to help solve who we lynch and who I jail seemed like genuine townie interest in solving this game and winning it for town. I kind of got that from TheBreeze's input as well.

Tammy was jailed N1 and I feel protected mostly because scum, especially newbscum will often kill the IC. I've seen it happen in newbie games many times. It is mostly a newbscum action but not always. If firebound was acting like a scumbucket, House was being confrontational, TheBreeze and Dooku were newbies, and Dani wasn't saying much, I can see how they narrowed it down to Tammy. Thinking from a scum-oriented mindset-the attempt at a kill makes sense. We also know Tammy did not kill House N2 because she was locked up again. I only locked her up again because of that hammer and because I figured it would be most informative because I did not know who scum was for sure at the time. Also, Tammy found the PR tell on firebound and mentioned it here and where before anyone else. I believe this is honest because I found the same tell. Therefore, if she is scum, she knew firebound was a PR and didn't shoot him. That just isn't something that would happen. Scum would take him out.

RayFrost is a PoE scumread at this point but his behavior of not posting for days and using Tammy as an excuse appears to be a way to get us close to deadline so we have to rush to make a decision and is not something town would do in mylo.

Like I said I think deathfisaro is a good lynch and RayFrost is the best jailkeep target overnight.

I would like other's input on this as well.

I'm going to refrain on my breeze comments until she answers the question I asked.

I'd like deathfisaro to respond more as well and will refrain there as well until I see his response.

I will admit that I've had rayfrost as an early townread all game and it's really difficult for me to give up early town reads, but I also want to see what he has to say and has been waiting for me to post to respond to. (the only real thing that bugs me about this is what bugged me earlier when he said he was waiting to post until I said something because he thought what he said could influence mine. I don't think that anyone with any sort of experience actually gets influenced by what other people say, so it feels weird, but I've still read his posts as town so IDK)

[Tammy]

Breeze - you have experience on another site, right? What site was that and how do the scum perform the nightkill there? ( I have a point here, promise, I'll explain later)

Town of Salem
http://www.blankmediagames.com/TownOfSalem/
The best way for you to understand it would be to give it a try. Games last only about a half an hour long

How scum play it:

- They have about a minute to decide on who to kill
- Only the Godfather can make the kill if he chooses to, but he doesn't do it directly. (His vote to kill overrides any other vote) He sends his lead Mafia member (The Mafiso) to make the kill and if there's a Lookout, Vetren, ect. the person he sends could be either killed or discovered as scum
- If the GF forgets to make a kill / inactive, the Mafiso can make a kill himself

Oh hmm...why would you think it was different in that they committed the kill together here?

The reason I was wondering is that my homesite performs kills differently than here. There the team performs the kill as a group, so if one mafia is blocked the kills go through. When I started playing on this site, I thought it worked the same way as my other site. If that were the case with you, I'd agree definite townslip. I need to reread it in context.

[Tammy]

Saying that I have a suspicion on SilverWolf is a straw man fallacy. I never said Silver was scum. I was implying Silver threw the game by PR slipping and getting outed by theBreeze early.

I don't understand this point. The games not over, so it's not thrown.

Besides, things like this are learning experiences, now everyone here will have a better idea of what to expect during massclaims.

(And if breeze was scum, she was doing the right thing for her wincon.)

[Tammy]

I'll post some other thoughts later. I have a good deal of work to do tonight, so it might be tomorrow.

[Tammy]

Guys, I'm sorry, I know this is inconvenient and deadline is close and you need my input, but I'm dealing with something RL that is going to make my head explode and I don't have the concentration for mafia right now. I will do my absolute best to be here tomorrow night after work when I get home from work (and have hopefully resolved some of this).

[Tammy]

I'm not sure why there's a wagon on RayFrost. Besides SilverWolf, he's the only person I can't imagine myself voting for.

I'm going to try to get caught up tonight, but I've had an extremely long day and have work to finish before I can go to bed. I'll at least try to skim so that I'm current.

I'm sorry I've been so distracted lately.

[Tammy]

I'll pick up from page 40 tomorrow. I can't stay awake any longer.

There is something I will caution against here and in every game. Never discount something someone says or does as something that mafia just won't do because mafia will do practically anything. What you have to determine is if that particular person is capable of doing that particular thing as mafia. It's dangerous if you do a blanket statement because then you're creating a blind spot.

I had something else to say that was general theory, but I've forgotten what it is. Hopefully, I'll remember tomorrow. I WILL be around tomorrow though. I have a dinner date tomorrow, so either before or after dinner. Though if it runs late, my time might be limited as I have class Saturday morning. Regardless, never mind, I will at least pop in here tomorrow!

[Tammy]

I'm drunkish, but I am caught up!

One thing that felt weird to me over the past couple of pages was that when breeze caught up she was like "oh I'm lost I don't know what to do someone ask me something direct" to which ray asked her some direct questions. Cut forward a few posts, she didn't answer those questions, but suddenly had gained some confidence and knew what she was doing and had a very incorrect scum team in her sights. Frankly, I can't figure out what to make of her. She keeps vacillating between not knowing what to do between being assertive and just knowing. So I DON'T KNOW,

I still feel good about silver wolf and ray frost being town. the scum are between breeze. dioku, band death dude.

I need to go to sleep. Ihave sclsss in the morning and am supposed to go to a mini meet in the afternoon. I will come back in between one of the million things I'm supposed to attend thomoor.w

[Tammy]

Shew.

I was driving home tonight and had a momentary freak out thinking I missed deadline and we no lynched.

I've been at the Chicago mini-meet all day and had a long drive home. I'm exhausted. I don't normally play mafia on Sundays, but I will check in to vote at the very least. I'd hammer now, but I haven't read today's posts and don't know if there are any outstanding questions to anyone and don't want to cut off any conversations that might be taking place.

Night y'all.

[Tammy]

I am here and making a post. Please don't hammer before I'm done. If noone is around, I probably won't hammer when I do make my post unless people say they are fine with the hammer. Otherwise I'll wait to do it after people have finished talking.

[Tammy]

Silver - Saying I'm sure of you being town wasn't negating your confirmed town status, it was me expressing who was town and who I thought was town.

I didn't win that game by lurking and not contributing. I won that game by giving my partner time on day one to fake claim a power role, making smart night kill choices and taking town with me to lylo that would give me the best chance of winning. One person had me as his strongest town read and was strongly scum reading the other person. It was a balancing act.

To those that asked - I don't do partnership analysis before a flip. That's just not how I read the game. I can sometimes pick out why two people probably aren't partnered together, but that's somewhat rare. Since I have Silver and Ray as town, the remaining suspect pool for me is Dooku, Depi, and Breeze. If Depi flips town, my biggest suspects are Dooku and Breeze, but in that situation I would also reevaluate Ray to make sure I'm not just confirm biasing, but I tend to hold quite strongly onto town reads I get early. If Depi flips scum, hell I don't know. I'd have to reread through the game for interactions.

It's very dangerous to accuse someone as scum because they are not acting like a town player should or would, or even how you would. People have different ideas about how town should behave and it is mostly based on how you, yourself would behave, and people are different. Some people think that fighting against your lynch too hard is a scum trait because town shouldn't fight against their lynch and should let it happen for the knowledge it gives town. But some people actually fight harder against their lynch as town than as scum. There are some people who don't get emotional and so don't behave in the same way. People have gotten mislynched lots of times for behaving against how people think town or scum would behave.

I really haven't had a problem with depi's game. He's in my suspect pool but more just for poe than anything else. The railing against SilverWolf and the mass claim situation even after Silver was confirmed town was arguing with her was a little townish. Why not just start sucking up to her when she was the only person that was safely town if he were mafia? His 1v1 thing with Ray was a little odd though. I'm not sure where it came from, but I'd have liked to have seen him do more with it. But, I don't get 1v1's a lot though because I've seen them be tvt way too often. I've seen newer players do them sometimes; not science used to do them a lot when he was town. Regardless, I'll hammer there later because a no lynch would be silly.

I think my strongest suspect is the Breeze though. Also Breeze - you keep calling it day phrase, but it's day phase. (Malakittens has that same exact typo.) My problem with Breeze is the one I said earlier that he keeps vacillating on the image he is projecting. Is he lost? Does he not know what he's doing? or Does he know and is confident? He does have some experience even though the formats seem to be different though. (Although I was thinking that he asked for someone to ask him questions and then didn't respond to them but I do see that he answered two of his questions.)

My only hesitancy is that my earlier reads were wrong.

As far as me not being around. It's not this game; it's site-wide. I am always a busy person who sometimes has a lull in activity here and there, but I also didn't anticipate what came at the first of the year which has added an extra dimension of things I've had to deal with. You don't need to be constantly posting; deadlines are what they are because a lot of people on this site work and it's supposed to be an extra-curricular thing. I have been checking on the game and there have been no mafia theory or game related questions that I have left unanswered. I haven't pushed for you guys to do one thing or the other because I believe that people learn best by making their own choices, with the information given to them, and seeing how it worked for them. The IC isn't here to direct the game, but to help you guys learn the game. And I wasn't too concerned with how the game was going while I was busy and distracted because there are two SE's here whom I am town reading (and confirmed town) whose play I haven't had disagreement with.

Anyway I have errands to run. I will try to make another post today; I will at least hammer before deadline though.

[Tammy]

More to the partnership analysis, I do make note of possible associations. So, for instance, I thought that house/victor might be partnered with 2b1s on day one due to the way they both pushed and voted fire bound. If 2b1s would have flipped scum, that's something I would have pursued, but he flipped town so that was out the window, and was a false associative.

[Tammy]

I have a work thing to go to tonight and will be leaving for it in two hours. I agree that todays course is set.

I will hammer before I leave though.

[Tammy]

I'm heading to my work thing. I see that breeze says he'll try to post when he gets home. I'll postpone my hammer for that. I'll be home before deadline. I won't miss it promise!

[Tammy]

I know that Ray said he'd be around and would hammer with an hour or less of deadline, but there's a very real chance I fall asleep soon and I don't want to take any chances.

VOTE: deathfisaro

[Tammy]

ffery - I'm v/la through Monday

Posting to say here. I have a Monday deadline. I won't be doing anything here until Tuesday. Unless I need a break from my assignment.

[Tammy]

I'm still working on a project that is overdue. It's very likely I won't get to this before Friday. Maaaaaybe tomorrow, but probably Friday.

[Tammy]

Oh hrm. I meant to come here and do something last night, but I ended up talking to a friend until late. I was going to try to push the breeze but I don't think it would have worked anyway.

I am sorry about my low activity lately. It was partly due to being scum, and partly due to some things going on in real life. Though I imagine if I'd been town I'd have made more time for the game.

It's a really hard balancing act being scum and being the ic. I did decide before I got my role pm that at least day one of the game I wasn't going to push the game in any direction and was mostly going to try to get people to explain their reads and thoughts and point out whether things were scummy or not. I think people learn best by seeing how their own thoughts pan out. I did make sure to answer anything theory related though.

But attacking people who are new when you know they're town and you're also supposed to be teaching in a sense is really difficult. Like seeing firebound's reaction to being pushed just kinda broke my heart and there would never have been anyway I'd be able to push him. I did pick up on the or tell, but he just seemed so earnestly confused as he was trying to play as best he could. I felt a similar thing to dooku'so reaction to me pointing out that his entrance was one I'd seen scum do before (and I did read that then meta him all in the same post). One of the hardest things for me as scum is to push cases on people I know are town because I feel bad about it, and mixing that with ic just felt so wrong. I know as ic I'm also supposed to be teaching you how to play as scum, and maybe if I'd done it before it would be easier.

Fun fact: I almost did accidentally hammer, but I went back and read the last page. I then debated about it for like an hour before going yolo!

I probably shouldn't have made the kill night one. I didn't think about a jailkeep. I was concerned about a tracker, and if they tracked depi I wanted him to come back clear. I thought he had a better chance at making it to the end than I did, and I wanted him to have more time in the game. I wouldn't have killed house night two; I think I would have killed silverwolf, but I didn't push that because I thought if it did turn out to be a wrong kill, it would help with learning how to kill. In my first ever game I was scum and my partner died night one. I was left to figure out the kills myself and I made terrible choices by not realizing a pr tell that was dropped, and it cost me the game. I learned more about night kills from that experience than I think I would have if my partner would have been alive and chose them. After that I started really looking at how night kills affect the game.

I'm sorry I didn't pull it through for us depi

I think town played well, and congratulations.

I think each of you had good instincts and were willing to read and reread and rethink your reads which was really good.

Thank you for running it ffery; it was great to play with all of you.

I'll have some more thoughts later when I'm not on my iPad.