Newbie 1591 (Day 3)

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #15 (isolation #0) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:03 pm

Hi folks. Welcome to the game. I'm one of your two SE's, and I presume Seraphim is our IC. Thanks to Serrapaladin for hosting o/

If you haven't done so already, I highly recommend reading the Forum Rules and Guidelines and Commonly Asked Questions about Mafia Theory.

These are just my opinions and I expect our IC to provide their own.

Some general advice:

At the start of the game,

there is what is commonly known as the random vote phase (or RVS)

, also known as 'low information voting stage'. Players can and should vote randomly mainly to see what the reaction of the opponent will be.

Be careful about voting somebody who is accusing or voting you

. It's natural to feel some kind of frustration when somebody is incorrectly accusing you of something, but if this is the basis of your counter vote against them, then it is not actually motivated by scum hunting. Players can pick up on this and identify that you're mainly interested in self defense and attribute this to a scum motivation. This is commonly known as 'OMGUS' - Oh My God You Suck. That said, it's perfectly fine to counter-vote somebody if you can state a good reason for it!

Discussion is the best way for us to identify scum.

Look for players who seem to be lurking, or are reactive instead of active, or aren't offering clear opinions about anything.

Conversely,

you should be active and give clear opinions

. Ultimately scum will have to lie about the reasons for their vote, so the less room you can give them to get out of their lies, the easier it will be to catch them.

Don't immediately hammer a player who is at L-1

, even if you think they're scum - state 'intent to hammer' to give the player a chance to claim and share any information they might have. If the phase is run down and there's no time left, do it anyway.

Once conversation starts to die off, it's worth finishing the phase.

The longer the phase goes on the more likely we will get a better ID on who the scum are, but if the phase drags out too long unnecessarily, players tend to get demotivated and it hurts the game state overall. As long as there's conversation going on, it's worth drawing the phase out.

Make sure to have fun.

It's very easy to take mafia too seriously - I do it all the time. Remember that everybody here is a person, just like you, and every one of them have feelings and reasons for doing the things that they do. It's a game, so take it easy. This is a newbie game, so players are going to make mistakes and say/do strange things. Some players crack under the strain, and others aren't suited for the kind of pressure this game can cause. We don't want players to crash and burn, so please try to keep it civil.

If you have any specific questions, please don't hesitate to ask in this thread.

Good luck and good hunting!

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #16 (isolation #1) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:09 pm

@Bewilderbeast

Me me me. Just asking, if someone asks a question (not: r u mafia?), do u have to answer truthfully.

You don't have to answer truthfully, although players often take a poor view of others who are caught lying.

As town, there is

rarely

a good, valid reason to lie day 1 in a newbie game. Scum may want to lie about the motivation for their vote, for example, whereas town might lie about their role to draw/avoid attention for whatever reason.

If you are inexperienced at mafia, I'd avoid lying. If you've played dozens of games elsewhere and you know what you are doing, I'd still avoid lying. This is a newbie game and your fellow players may not be as understanding as your more experienced players elsewhere. In my own second newbie game, I fake-claimed doc and was able to identify the two scum in the fallout. However, I was still lynched before the second scum because that player was able to successfully persuade town to 'lynch all liars'.

There is another kind of lie called a gambit, wherein you fake a town result to try to get reactions out of other players. It's not appropriate on day 1, however, since there's been no actions played yet.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #17 (isolation #2) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:12 pm

Since we can vote, here is my RVS vote:

VOTE: Saad
Asking us to find mafia 'guys' ignores that some players may be female, implies he is from a male/male group, must therefore be scum.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #36 (isolation #3) » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:23 pm

Hello. I'm glad players asked about RVS (linku)*. Here's some really great information for how to get the most out of your RVS.

This is meta non-content info so I'll spoiler it.

Spoiler:

With that in mind,

I'll explain my vote.

My vote was primarily to get the game started by showing the new players that it was okay to vote with basically no concrete reason, and I picked Saab because in my very first job I was taught by my boss never to refer to customers as 'guys'.

Spoiler:

Since I explained my vote it's fair for other players to explain theirs!

***

Heyboxgaming

in 18 gave their reason for voting as

Because asking silly questions is silly =)

which is clear and concise.
It's a long user name, do you mind if I call you Box from now on? Or maybe Gaming? I would feel weird shortening to HBG. HG kind of works.

To those who question RVS, what methods do you propose to get the conversation rolling??

An alternative to RVS I have

sometimes

seen is players asking general questions like, "What do you think is the best way to catch scum?" or "Do you prefer to play as town/scum?". I've tried this before and received a lot of trouble for my effort. It did turn up scum in one game that I tried it, though.

Since we're here, what do you think is the best way to catch scum?

@Highspace

In 27

I don't have a complaint about RVS, but to me it just doesn't look useful. Watch me get proven wrong.

Are you expecting to be proven wrong? Why?

On epicmafia, our convos would naturally develop and we would give our reads and use our 'knowledge' to pressure others, instead of actual voting.

You have knowledge in quotes. What do you mean?

I also think Jake's questions in #34 are quite pertinent and I am interested in the responses.

@Seraphim

You had a 'semi-serious' vote on Saab. Can you clarify why you felt this vote is 'semi-serious'? I can see that you unvoted right after they were put at L-1, but you still voted for some reason...right?

@Bewilderbeast

I'm a bit concerned with your flippant comments and post 32 where you speculate why Saab is lynchworthy:

Saad is suspicious because he hasn't been very active, and is probably trying to lay low, make it through the first day and meet up with his mafia buddies in the night.

While Saab hasn't been terribly active, we have another player who hasn't voted and posted less than Saab - Jake from State Farm. Why do you feel that Saab is more worthy of a vote than Jake?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #37 (isolation #4) » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:26 pm

Do you guys actually think he could be mafia? I do, but I'm gonna keep it to myself for now.

I don't really believe at this stage that Saab is mafia. I'm voting because he

might

be. With 9 players and 7 scum and counting myself out, there's a 1/4 chance that any given vote is valid. I'm interested in watching for the behavior of other players, as well as Saab, to this pressure.

I'm really interested in why you think Saab is mafia but you're not voting for him.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #41 (isolation #5) » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:36 pm

I don't mind if your reasoning is weird or different, I just want to see that it exists. Can you give me some pointers on why you voted Saab?
cut:
And why you now unvoted Saab?

Also: what does the Mafia scum/townsperson stuff above our avatars mean?

It tells you which players are town and which ones are mafia.

It tells you what member group a player is in. It's metadata - some players are admin, others are site contributors, etc. Common or garden variety plebs like us will be townspersons and mafia scums. After a couple hundred posts, or a certain time on the forum, you'll be promoted to Godfather. If you ever contribute something particularly epic to the community as a whole, or moderate a lot of games, or perform spectacularly well in your games, you can expect some kind of award or promotion.

Generally the most coveted award for us scums are The Scummies, awards given by the community for great or hilarious deeds. Scummies can be reviewed in greater detail here.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #43 (isolation #6) » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:42 pm

It's clear that you unvoted him because of pressure from me.

Why did you re-vote him?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #45 (isolation #7) » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:49 pm

So we're back here:

I don't mind if your reasoning is weird or different, I just want to see that it exists. Can you give me some pointers on why you voted Saab?

To be clear, I want to know why you voted Saab for the stated reason of inactivity when, at that time, Jake was also not voting/posted less.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #47 (isolation #8) » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:55 pm

I accept that is a valid reason to vote Saab. My question is: The reason is equally valid for Jake from State Farm.

Why did you vote Saab instead of, say, Jake?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #74 (isolation #9) » Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:31 pm

@Highspace

In 34 you said:

multiple people are voting Saad: Do you guys actually think he could be mafia? I do, but
I'm gonna keep it to myself for now.

In 48 you said:

Its better to share than keeping it to myself
. His first post: "lets find the mafia guys" implies that he is part of the team (town team) and that he doesn't know the mafia. I feel that it was the exact intent of his post.

Bolded emphasis mine.

Why did you feel that this was worth hiding in post 34? What changed between #34 and #48 that you suddenly felt like talking about it?

@HG

You gave a list of reads in 53 that had 'town - nobody' 'null - everybody else' and 'scum - bewilderbeast'. It seems a bit...unusual to say 'current reads' and effectively list only one player. In 71 you ask players to explain their votes on Saad (reasonable).
What is your opinion on Saad?

@Seraphim

You keep using bold to vote/unvote. I think you need to use the /vote mechanic for the mod to count it. Since Saad is STILL at L-1 and I also hate accidental hammers;
UNVOTE: Saad
while I continue reading.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #78 (isolation #10) » Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:55 pm

@Highspace

34

Saad: Do you guys actually think he could be mafia?
I do

Hmm.

64

I don't
think Saad is mafia. Why is Saad townreading the other most likely person to be lynched at the current moment?

What changed your opinion between 34 and 64?

Why do you now think Saad is town?

@Heyboxgaming

To fix this problem i would like to challenge all votes on saad. Look at all his posts, I have. and I see nothing remotely scummy. He essentially said "hey guys" and became the largest wagon in the game.

My vote was a random vote, plain and simple. I wanted to demonstrate that it was okay to semi-randomly vote based on basically nothing.

Since then -
Saad lightly defended.
Saad

still hasn't placed a vote

.

A lot of other players voted for Saad and players are now starting to give their opinions either way, and you yourself have cried foul over the wagon. All is well.

My main concern at this stage is that Saad has failed to place a vote and hasn't given any indication what they think about other players. It's normal for players to become a little defensive when they are being voted but it doesn't feel like Saad has become engaged with the players in a way that, say, you have.

I had no basis to believe Saad was scum when I voted, it was just to get the game rolling and to see what happened. I kept my vote there because there's no point in applying pressure if you just unvote when the pressure starts to build. I became nervous when I saw the latest vote tally and that Seraphim's latest unvote hadn't been counted. I like pressure, I don't like surprise hammers.

Here is what i think would be best of town to do, First lynch beast, we have some evidence to scummy play, then see how he flips.

I also contend we have evidence of scummy play from Saad. Why not lynch Saad first?

or we could just sit here in two wagons. getting no more info.

The phase is very young, and the longer it goes on, the more information we generate. I'm okay with this.

cut

Bwaaah

Bewilderbeast, please.

Saad probably assumes that I am a mafia,
knows he is too
, and is trying to help me.

:/ :/ :/ :/ :/

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #80 (isolation #11) » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:10 pm

This is the second time you have strongly implied that you are scumbuddies with Saad. The first was when you speculated Saad was the mafia roleblocker in 32. At the time I thought you were crumbing a town power role that matched up with a roleblocker (see the Setup info), so I tried to draw attention away from this by poking at other parts of your content so that mafia might not notice.

I became alarmed when you seemed to be unaware of why you were voting but I tried to ignore it as a new player being excited but...this is too much.

I'd like to vote Bewilderbeast, but that will put him at L-1 and he can just self-hammer if he is scum, and with Saad at L-1 too, he has no reason not to quickhammer.

Of course if they are both scum it doesn't matter.

shruuuuuug

Or maybe I'm reading too much in to it. Thoughts?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #81 (isolation #12) » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:15 pm

I just did a quick google of the face-to-face mafia game to confirm: Even in face-to-face mafia, mafia players know each other. A foundation precept of the game is 'informed minority versus uninformed majority'.

So this:

Saad probably assumes that I am a mafia, knows he is too, and is trying to help me.

cannot be passed off as a townslip, not knowing that mafia know each other.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #85 (isolation #13) » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:40 pm

Welllllllllll I think people voted you because you said a lot of strange things. You implied specific knowledge of the scum team (talking about a roleblocker before town had any setup information really) and you flip-flopped around on your vote, including on and off and on again votes with Saad. Didn't you read the links I posted? Your vote is a weapon.

Use it with care

. You can and will (and have!) be held accountable for it.

You also said a lot of really bizarre comments and players are having a tough time understanding and sympathising with you. I'll save more comments til post game in case there's more surprises. If this is game over I'm sorry it ended so quickly, but a quick game can also be a good game.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #92 (isolation #14) » Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:42 pm

I'm pretty much in agreement. I just thought putting two wagons at L-1 is asking for trouble. If one of them is town, the scum one will hammer the town one.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #93 (isolation #15) » Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:45 pm

I guess it looks more likely that they are both scum though. I guess no harm done. I've just never seen this before in over seventy games of mafia and I'm kind of at a loss for words.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #98 (isolation #16) » Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:37 pm

To the experienced players: what is SOP on this site when it comes to claims in general, and DP1 claims in particular?

This is must my opinion from games played - if there's mafia theory somewhere about it, I'm unaware of it.

Ordinarily, there are no claims on d1 except when somebody is put at L-1 and another says 'intent to hammer, please claim'.

Scum will sometimes claim a power role e.g. doc or cop to try and get town to counterclaim. On day 1, we definitely don't want to counter claim, and just say something like 'I don't believe this claim' and vote.

I can't think of a reason offhand why town would claim on day 1 other than as a threat of being lynched.

***

I'd rather not push for a claim right now as we finally saw some activity from Saad and I want to see where he is going with it.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #151 (isolation #17) » Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:41 pm

@Anarchist

The reason I think Bewilderbeast is scum is because he strongly implied being scum buddies with Saad, twice! He asked about lying in one of his first posts, his content is erratic and his votes were highly reactionary. Beast hasn't really paid much attention to any player other than Saad. His last post appeared to be an admission of guilt, and then he seems to have checked out of the game (until just now). Saad has had no content prior to this, and since then has largely declared Bewilderbeast an innocent town despite offering no basis for this. The idea of a Bewilderbeast/Saad scum team is

very

compelling for me.

Looking at 76:
I have an issue with what Bewilderbeast said.

@heyboxgaming
@saad
First off: this is something pretty funny. I think whenever I voted saad, I put Saab do it didn't show up in the official vote count. Also, I must say that I am quite unused to forum mafia: this is not a lie. It's completely different from face-to-face but is still very fun. The RVS part is very confusing and even if I was mafia, I don't completely understand what I'm doing. I honestly feel saad is suspicious, now more because he is defending me, being so horribly bad at maintaining an unlynched position. Saad probably assumes that I am a mafia, knows he is too, and is trying to help me.
If I was to be town, I don't even understand how to defend myself from people wanting to lynch me. Please help.

Beast made this post @Saad. Pretty unusual if he then votes Saad in the same post. But that's minor compared to the issues this post has.

"Saad probably assumes that I am a mafia, knows he is too, and is trying to help me."

We established in Beast's #82 that he is no stranger to mafia and is aware that the mafia know each other. This comment says that a mafia-aligned Saad 'assumes' Beast is mafia too. This doesn't make sense, because mafia don't need to assume who their buddy is, they already know. Beast is aware of this but he still posted it as a basis for his vote. (Beast also implies here that a town!Saad believes in scum!Beast, but that town!Saad is inexplicably assisting scum!Beast, but if that's the case...why vote for Saad?)

i like to keep games separate and isolated.

I'm pretty much in agreement with you here. In other games I have played, I have often found people make comments like "Oh but I always do xyz as town" or "Player M always does xyz as scum, this game they did abc, so therefore they are town". More often than not, I have found scum or the buddies of a scum player making this argument as an excuse for their poor content in the current game.

@Coldwine/Jake

It's very important for town players to appear town to other town players

I don't specifically agree with this. If you are playing a good town game, you will appear town through no additional effort of your own.

Non content/meta content gets spoilered.

Spoiler:

137

or n00b town, for that matter. imo

If you could see both town or scum being equally likely to do something, we can't consider it a factor. It's a null.

***

@Highspace

I'm confused by your random comments in 104 and 106. If you have something to say, say it. If you don't have anything to say, then don't pretend that you do.

I also asked you some very direct questions in my 78, specifically how you seem to change opinion on Saad in a very short space from 'mafia' to 'not mafia'. Could you please clarify this?

147
"lol" is not an appropriate response to a genuine question on wtf you are doing. You made weird comments that appear to be based on something but refused to clarify. Can you?

***

@Saad

also unvote from bewilderbeast please. he's an easy lynch and he is also town so please abort bandwagon.

Many, many players believe otherwise. Can you please explain why you're so confident Beast is town?

128

fast bw on him, his excited demeanor. he just seems eager to help and i think people are mis reading him. he is town, a villager townie i may add who is just excited about playing his first game of forum mafia

also the fact that you, (my scumread) has jumped onto this bw also makes me think he is town.

Five smileys is excessive. Excessive!!

Again, please explain your Beast town read.
I'm also super interested in your apparent scum read on Jake, since I don't recall you mentioning this previously. Why do you think Jake is scum?

***

@Seraphim

I haven't seen you participate in the discussion. There has been a lot going on and other than your comment that you like to play 'holistically' and that you were holding your scum read of Saad close to your chest, I have no clue what you think. Do you have any opinion on the current situation? Current read on Saad? Opinion about Beast? Reads on other players?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #210 (isolation #18) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:41 pm

Hi folks. I took a short break to give other players a chance to provide feedback on the Saad/Bewilderbeast fiasco.

I'm generally happy that Saad has started posting more, but my suspicion that Bewilderbeast has basically checked out of the game seems confirmed.

Anyway, let's get to it.

Town-tier

aka "players I'd like to doc"
Jake is probably my strongest town read at the moment. I think he is asking pertinent questions and paying attention to the game. He has engaged with all the players at some point.
Anarchist is my next town pick. I can see what appears to be a sincere desire to interrogate players, in particular his exchange with Box looks like the Real Deal.

Mid-tier

aka "players I'd like to cop"
Next is Box. I contrast Box with Beast: They are both MAX HYPE but Box seems legitimate and I don't get a bad vibe from his posts. He has not shied away from conversation. I would like to see more engagement with other players and questioning rather than an assertion that he is TOWN and TOWN IS GOOD.

I'm not really impressed with Seraphim. 'Holistic' appears to be a cover for 'not read posts carefully' as Seraphim has apparently missed a couple of really bad scum slips/role specs given out by Beast and handwaved them as 'inexperienced town' and suggests if we lynch Beast, it's because of a policy lynch. What policy, exactly?

Scum tier

aka "players I'd like to day vig"
Highspace - I generally agree with everything Seraphim said and his omgus vote was clearly reactionary. I've previously asked Highspace to clarify some inconsistencies in his reads and I don't feel that it was satisfactorily answered, as well as some weird comments towards Anarchist. Weird slot. Doesn't seem engaged. The reason Highspace is here instead of Seraphim is because I generally agree with Seraphim's case, and Highspace doesn't have a case. The choice is easy.
Saad - swears Beast is vanilla town despite it being day 1 and no alignment/role information possible. Significant interactions mainly revolve around defending Beast. Seems way too unconcerned that the guy he is hard defending is hard scum reading him. Specifically referred to lynching a mafia goon rather than generic mafia scums, which lends credence to the idea of Saad being a scum roleblocker in this setup.
Beast - Several scum slips, including apparently claiming scum and speculating that Saad is the mafia roleblocker in one of his first posts.

This is mostly a catch up post, I spent too much time elsewhere. This weekend I am partly VLA because cherry blossoms, but I'll be around well before phase end again.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #211 (isolation #19) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:48 pm

I realise I missed Coldwine. Oops.

Super scum tier

Coldwine is definitely scum and should die as soon as possible, like follows:

Shoot Coldwine

I like Coldwine's posts and I wish he would post more. I particularly like that he is willing to engage players e.g. disagree with early day lynch/discuss meta with Jake as well as directly question Seraphim/Highspace/Jake over their reads and votes. It's good town play. Town tier imo.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #214 (isolation #20) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:26 pm

Just a quick one while I'm here -

If Beast was scum, why would he speculate who the roleblocker is?

Flip it on it's head - this is the question I posed - If Beast was TOWN, why would he speculate, specifically, that

Saad is the roleblocker?

At the time, I speculated that Beast was crumbing a town pr that tied up with the roleblocker. However in contrast with this, Saad not only insists Beast is town, but that he is

vanilla town

.

***

I felt this so obvious that there was not much academic value in the IC's/SE discussing it, and letting the new players practice making cases and debate over it. As indicated by me taking a break to give other players a chance to discuss.
I felt strongly that this was basically a mutual scum confirmation.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #215 (isolation #21) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:42 pm

Actually one more for Seraphim.

In 174 you wing me as scummy for pushing Beast because 'I should know better', yet hand out a town read for Jake who has essentially the same view as I do, to my understanding.

You've stated your read on Jake is because:

I'm reading town on Jake because his posts show a really strong town intent: strong scumreading and a willingness to follow through with questioning, taking an active role in the game etc

I'm wondering what the difference in your perspective is on Jake and myself, given we're both SE's who (to my view) basically have the same reads and direction this game?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #258 (isolation #22) » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:12 pm

I thought I would have more time but I'm basically afk all weekend. I'll be around pretty much constantly for the next couple of days after today. I'm sorry for basically disappearing from the game for the last two days.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #263 (isolation #23) » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:45 pm

And we're back! OK so let's see what I missed.

I'm spoilering out the stuff that is replies to other people, and leaving the stuff I want attention on in public view.

@Seraphim

Spoiler:

@HeyBoxGaming

Spoiler:

@Coldwine

Spoiler:

@Saad

Why do you keep bring it back to just bewilder? 4 people were voting you and 3 were voting bewilder and I asked why you were not suspecting these people? Instead you decide to suspect the person who voted somebody else. That is kind of odd because this is a numbers game and when their are only 7 townies and 7 people are voting you, to not be suspicious of any of those people doesn't make any sense as at least 1 of those 7 have to be scum. I love how you still kinda refuse to answer that question.

This question (by Jake) I think deserves an explanation, particularly as you are now voting Bewilder.

225
Saad

His partners Seraphim btw.

I'm quite concerned because you've now voted Bewilder, who...to my mind, you were defending quite significantly for awhile, and you haven't validated your scum read on Seraphim. I would have thought if you were suddenly town reading Jake, you'd go to your next scum pick of Seraphim, rather than jumping on to Jake's scum read.

It seems like you're clearing Jake because he's clearing you.

Could you please explain your read on Seraphim, and your read on Bewilderbeast? Yes, I appreciate if you are voting him you think he is scum. I just want to know

why

. Especially when

he's a village townie in clothing but a mafia goon at heart

you seem to believe/know he is town.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #266 (isolation #24) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:10 am

In what way would a replacement for Bewilder have any impact on what you have said previously?

I think these are points you should address

before

any replacement could be found.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #310 (isolation #25) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:25 pm

Intent to hammer Saad. Please claim.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #311 (isolation #26) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:51 pm

We have several days left and the conversation is active so I don't intend to drop the hammer any time soon. Players may unvote if they are antsy anyway.

Saad, I'm generally unhappy with your attitude. If we lynch you and you flip town we have no basis to lynch Jake because of it, because you haven't established why Jake is scum, and why scum would necessarily target you over another player. You also haven't indicated why you think Seraphim is scum, so I'm inclined to believe it's just a thrown out read to appear like there's content.

I want to know why you voted BW. Yes I appreciate that you said he was going afk and you didn't like it. But other players - iirc Highspace/Coldwire/Box had been afk for a lengthy period of time, so what was special about BW's afk that warranted a vote?

You stated that you thought BW was town and yet you were voting him. I can't easily reconcile that so I need an explanation from you.

***

@Seraphim

In 273 you state -
"I don't have a lot of time to post at the moment but I will soon."

Is 'soon' going to be within this day phase?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #337 (isolation #27) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:09 pm

Saad wrote a lot and while on the surface it's good to see content, I want to consider the quality of that content yet.

My main concerns with Saad's sudden helpfulness are:
He has still failed to substantiate his scum read on Seraphim.
He started town reading Jake after multiple players asked him to substantiate his scum read. But only a post before, he promised to give his Jake case an explanation 'later', while taunting me to hammer him. Not good.
He failed to claim when asked at L-1 with a threat of hammer.

I'll evaluate his Box case though because I agree that both BW and Saad have born the brunt of the pressure this game. I don't mind the focus being shared around.

@Seraphim

I am going to sit on this game and see what happens in the next 24 hours.

I don't mean to be rude, but that's kind of what you've been doing for this whole game. I accept you may be busy in RL so I'll trust you at your word that there'll be content in a day or so.

Also, welcome Pablito o/

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #338 (isolation #28) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:00 pm

Actually.

VOTE: Seraphim

Seraphim put down a 'semi-serious vote' for Saad in his first post of the game, post 28. He later unvoted after Saad was quickly run up to L-1 to avoid a hammer, but stated later when I asked about this reason that:

As for my semi-serious reasons, I prefer to keep them close to my chest for the time being. Consider my vote on Saab even though it's not on there currently

After awhile, Seraphim makes a case and votes for Highspace in 174. I thought this was a pretty reasonable post at the time, it included some meta content at the start but the post was not soley about meta, he discussed the ongoing issue with BW and agreed with Saad that BW seemed like new town, and touched on every player to some degree, and that he's feeling better about Saad. OK.

In 273 Seraphim puts his scum team guess as Saad/Highwine (I assume he meant Highspace). He then re-votes Saad in 287. And then an unvote after Saad's wall post happens soon after.

At no point do I see any indication as to Seraphim's reason for scum reading (and voting) Saad. He didn't explain why he was changing his vote from Highspace to Saad. I also don't see the basis for his unvote, because Seraphim didn't appear to perform any analysis on what Saad posted, and as an experienced player, he should have been very aware that Saad didn't claim/changed his read on Jake/basically all the stuff I said the post before this.

Overall, Seraphim's content has been very sporadic and usually in response to people mentioning him. I appreciate that he has said frequently that he is very busy, but, some quotes from Seraphim...

Don't lurk. It's honestly not that difficult, especially if this is your only game, to catch on the game and make a substantive reply in about 15-20 minutes. That's what I do and what I plan on doing.

Whoa there eager beaver. That's L-1 which is to say that one more vote would cause Saad to be lynched, which would be real unfortunate in my mind.

That's L-1. Typically, it is site meta that when you reach L-1, you should claim your role but you might have reasons to not do so. Your call.

I guess I want to hear these cards that Seraphim has been holding to his chest, because if eventually do/don't lynch Saad, I want to know what side of the fence Seraphim is on before that happens.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #339 (isolation #29) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:03 pm

The reason I'm bringing this up now is because I realised I've been asking Saad to explain his read on Seraphim, and he wouldn't do it. I asked Seraphim to explain his read on Saad, and he hadn't done it yet. I realise stuff happened since then. But I remember Seraphim saying he was suspicious of me because I'd been pushing BW and that 'experienced Sky should know better'. We have an empty unvote by Seraphim from Saad.

I still think Saad is scummy, and I want to explore Seraphim/Saad scum team.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #342 (isolation #30) » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:23 pm

Now looking at Saad's Box case.

Spoiler:

I generally agree that Box is making one common scum tell, which is lining up lynches, early in the day phase. Overall he does have a lot of content though and most of it is relevant to game state or advancing his reads/questioning others. He did have a very selective list of scum reads early in the game.

Conversely, I don't agree with some of the points that Saad made, such as that Box is feigning helpfulness, or that Box has flipped on his BW read. I'm also dubious of his claim that this was all part of some giant strategy to catch scum.

I'll invite Saad to respond to these points.

cut - Seraphim -???

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #381 (isolation #31) » Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:02 pm

I've been silently waiting for the promised Seraphim content. It has yet to appear :C

I was busy elsewhere for today and will get to this game in around twelve hours.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #393 (isolation #32) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:52 pm

Pablito

Sky - Post #93 you claim both bewilder and Saad to be scum. You mentioned as both wagons being in competition with one another. You now see more of a Seraphim/Saad scum team. Thus you vote Seraphim. I don't get it. Also Saad offered to claim - you had intent to hammer. What do you see of his non-claim. I feel like you're mentioning Saad's lack of a claim as extra ammo to get the wagon back to Saad when you hold some responsibility on this too?

Sky there is still more to see other than the seraphim post. in deadline situation cannot always just wait.

I'm quite perplexed at the current game state. Saad refusing to claim looks terrible. I've only ever seen it once before from a town player - they flipped doc. So I'm forced to conclude that Saad refusing to claim is because he is roled town, or scum. I am loathe to lynch a possible town role on day 1 so I - begrudgingly - decided to look elsewhere. If he claims vanilla town after this he's dead to me.

Saad's asked for more time - but he's been stalling

all game

(including his most recent post) and keeps saying he'll provide explanations for his various reads later. He's never done it - his Box read is weak at best, he'd never addressed it before then, and he hasn't continued to push the case since then. I don't think he really believes in it.

Then I ran into Seraphim. He approves of my case, said it's wrong, but he hasn't actually responded to my case/general repeated requests for content. I don't know his opinion on Saad, the biggest wagon of the day, and Seraphim has been on that wagon twice. I expect an explanation and none has been forthcoming to...anything except meta questions that don't help improve the game state.

We've had a phase extension already because you replaced in. Without it, we would be panic voting right now to avoid a no-lynch at phase end. How much more time do Saad/Seraphim need?

About BW -
I thought we had a legitimate scum slip. I still do! But this game only has three scums so I must be wrong somewhere.
BW and Saad interactions are frequent and messy. Saad insists BW is vanilla town, yet votes him anyway, and BW's vote/unvote/vote and general flaky attitude looks bad. Out of the two, though, I'd take Saad on an extra special trip to the gallows over BW. I feel like BW has brought more to the game than Saad

and Seraphim

and that's saying a lot.

That said -

@BW

369

I feel that Jake seems pretty towny (a strong read) because of his strong reasoning against players I feel are scummy. Heyboxgaming also remains a strong town read because of his lack of inconsistencies and good reasoning about Seraphim. I think saad remains my strongest scum read right now because of his sudden change of opinion that I am scum (after he'd been defending me practically the whole game) in an obvious attempt to buddy Jake. I have null reads on coldwine and anarchist and investigating them further currently. I'm pretty mystified about yourself (Pablito) and SkyPaladin.

'I feel that Jake seems pretty towny (a strong read) because of his strong reasoning against players I feel are scummy.'
Players Jake sees that are scummy, other than you, are Seraphim and Saad. Until now, I haven't seen anything from you suggesting a Seraphim scum pick. Can you please explain this remark?
'HBG...good reasoning about Seraphim'. Did you mean this post? That's all I could find.

@Jake

353

I'm torn on saad now, for a newbie that post he made was really good and i can agree with his points, but then he's also desperate.

For your justification of unvoting Saad re:HBG - What points do you agree with? I went through the wall and found a lot of things that I did not agree with.

@Anarchist/Saad

And what is this now?

I presume this is

Saad claiming cop

. And if that is not the case he should clarify immediately.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #395 (isolation #33) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:56 pm

What is your opinion on Seraphim?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #401 (isolation #34) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:30 am

Scum ordinarily can't talk during the day phase - at least, none of the newbie games I was in, and whoever brought it up first was usually considered confirmed town for not knowing about it. So take a free +1 chance of being town token on the house.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #404 (isolation #35) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:39 am

I have limited access on weekends - not enough for V/LA but I won't be able to do any big wall analysis posts. My opinion/thoughts haven't particularly changed in the last 48 hours where we waited for Saad/Sera to do something.

At the moment, I'd prefer to lynch Seraphim, failing that Saad, failing that, BW. However I'm not really sure when, I started to get a better feeling about BW, so if we happen to rule out Saad/Sera for lynching for whatever reason I'd want to look around and consider other players rather than just wagoning BW.

@Pablito

You said Seraphim is not in your top three suspects. Who are your top three suspects, and why?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #412 (isolation #36) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:42 pm

Saad claim.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #450 (isolation #37) » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:36 am

@Heyboxgaming

Saad's last instruction was literally to lynch you first x___x

Well to be honest I'm pretty surprised that both Jake and I are around. I kind of figured scum would take a shot at one of the SE or IC's since in the absence of roles, killing off a more experienced player is usually the way to go. That either suggests scum believed in a town doc (possibly, scum has a role blocker to believe this) or scum was fishing for a role. Coldwine...I don't think anybody was really town reading or scum reading him. Might have been something Coldwine said. I'll have to ISO him and see who he was scum reading.

That said, Seraphim failed to bring anything to the table day 1 despite repeatedly promising to do so, so he's my main scum read at the moment. Saad flipping town clears Bewilderbeast from any rolespec about Saad-BW apparently knowing each other's alignment, and also undoes my long suspicion that he had scum-slipped a team out. More to come.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #458 (isolation #38) » Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:09 am

Going VLA for the weekend. I basically agree with everything Jake wrote.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #482 (isolation #39) » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:36 pm

I'd like to see the end of House's catch-up before I comment on it.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #505 (isolation #40) » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:22 am

I haven't seen anything particularly scummy from Jake, so that's why you haven't seen 'conversations' between us. I think I've asked Jake to explain his reads at some point, I'll go through later and check.

I'm still V/LA so I'll put my main response in to House when I get back (roughly 24 hours from now) but I'm basically frowny face that he started his reads with 'Sky and BW are totes scum' and ended with exactly that, and then had the gall to accuse Jake about confirmation bias. I also don't see the point of the post townclearing Coldwine because he'd flipped, or that he came in and pointed fingers at everybody and then presented a largely arbitrary list of reads that concluded the same thing about Jake as everybody already had, and put everybody else as null. Basically his many, many posts do not improve our body of knowledge or bring up anything new.

I don't like that he failed to state his reason before voting, either. It kind of looks like he just picked me because I was poking his slot day 1/voted/agree with Jake.

I'll be back in a day to respond in greater detail.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #514 (isolation #41) » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:25 pm

House, many players (myself included) believed that was scum!Beast checking out of the game. The only one who thought differently was Saad, who later flipped the read on its head.

You've highlighted a quote that apparently proved Saad to be super-town; a quote where Saad said that Beast was vanilla town. You further state that you don't understand his state of mind that made him think Beast was scum.

Yet you, in your reads list of 497, have listed Bewilderbeast as scum, and then state you don't understand why Saad changed his mind (to see BW as scum, thus agreeing with you). Can you account for this discrepancy?

I'll be around in the morning to go through House and respond to his questions.

@Box

I'm not in the habit of pressuring people who I think are town. If you think I should have been pressuring Jake, can you please point out something scummy you think I should have chased? Otherwise, I don't see what you're getting at. I'm not specifically avoiding anybody - if I see something scum, I'll press it.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #515 (isolation #42) » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:27 pm

pedit in case it's not clear:
House has previously stated that he thinks BW is hardcore scum, but in his 513 he implies that he thinks/knows Beast is vanilla town. I'd like this contradiction explained.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #517 (isolation #43) » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:40 pm

House

To answer your question, saad stated why he thought bewildered was a VT, and his explanation was one of the few posts of his that actually made sense.

???

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #519 (isolation #44) » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:49 pm

You said Saad's explanation 'made sense'. Saad's explanation for why he presumed Beast was vanilla town was:

his reaction to being lynched was not that of a pr

You are an IC and you have seen many games, and no doubt, players giving up under pressure/confirm guilty/etc etc. To me, it looked like scum!Beast checking out of the game.

What, exactly, about Saad's comment 'made sense', if not that you were agreeing with Beast being vanilla town?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #521 (isolation #45) » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:22 pm

OK. That's plausible. I can consider that perhaps I misunderstood. I'll review your posts in greater detail tomorrow.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #528 (isolation #46) » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:13 am

I'll be catching up on this game in the next few hours.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #535 (isolation #47) » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:55 pm

@House

A big part of me scum reading Seraphim was because of his general inactivity and refusal to comment on his Saad read. I'm happy to see you are at least active but I'm not really impressed with your point-fingers-at-everybody content.

I'm interested to see what our new replacements will think about you.

467

First: Scum self-hammering on d1 would still be a net benefit for town because it would result in the scum team being cut in half without sacrificing town.
Second: Why would scum quickhammer due to point 1?
Third: Although d2 would be a continuation of d1 with a scum quickhammer, it would still cripple scum who would be running from behind in order to try to avoid future lynches.

I believe that you know experienced players won't put likely-scum players at L-1 because they may self hammer and end conversation. This is a newbie game, we also have the added 'surprise hammer' situation that I wanted to avoid. Your predecessor used as their basis for unvoting Saad when he was at L-1 in RVS, and Seraphim refusing to reveal his intentions towards Saad was one reason why he got a vote from me on day 1.

You actually point this out yourself in 474 so that's a pretty big contradiction. So off the back of day 1, that will earn you a vote.

VOTE: Seraphim

468

This is -such- a bs post.

Is it. Do you ordinarily see two apparent scum counterwagons by page three of a game?

469

Goodposting, and idk why you guys lynched saad d1.

Because he was scummy as fuck and we all expected him to flip scum. He was at L-1 with two threats to hammer and he still refused to claim. *shrug* What can you do.

476

1) There's a solid chance that we only have 1 PR.
2) There's also a solid chance that PR will be dead before MyLo.

This post is really bad.

By my count, there's only two set ups out of nine where we would have one town power role, so... :/
What were you trying to achieve with this post?

447

So out of all the players, the only one you'd want to investigate is a player who "seems legitimate" and that you "don't get a bad vibe from his posts"?

Correct. I cop my mid-tier. I lynch my scum-tier reads. I doc my town-tier reads. What do you do?

That still doesn't explain why you'd want to investigate a player that sounds more like a town read than a null read.

I didn't say town read. I didn't say null. I said mid-tier.
There are some good things and some bad things about Box - at that point of the game I was contrasting him with Highspace. They had what felt to me to be generally the same activity, but Highspace said several weird things and didn't answer questions. It seemed more reserved, and I distrusted it. Box seemed more open. I think that's more likely to come from town.

That's why I'd use a cop on Box, but I'd rather just lynch Highspace. No offense, Pablito.

479

Why would town assume that scum has a roleblocker?

Probably the same reason I stopped trying to lynch Beast around halfway in to day 1.

Which relates to...
495

Why would you be surprised that you're around? You're my top scumread.

I'm surprised because after I felt that Bewilderbeast was roled town (for speculating about a roleblocker being in the game), I decided to start crumbing doc. I figured that scum would probably hit me if they thought I was the doc, because in my estimation one of Jake or I were the preferred night 1 hit. If they thought I was a doc covering Jake (which I had stated I would do) then they'd go for me.

I'm

additionally

surprised that you/Jake/me are still around, because in the absence of a clear town role to hit, scum *should* have gone for the more experienced players to hit - if they were reasonably experienced themselves. This was not a best play hit in my estimation. That suggests to me either an inexperienced scum team, or a team that's more experienced than me. Heyboxgaming's theory is pretty interesting, too.

I realise other stuff has happened and I will get around to it asap. I'm unexpectedly busy this week.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #541 (isolation #48) » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:44 am

There was an early push for Saad/Bewilderbeast that got very messy with BW speculating Saad was the roleblocker/Saad alternatively claiming BW was vanilla town, and a few other back and forth's.

Our IC essentially vote parked, said a number of mysterious things that were never quantified, and vanished. Saad was eventually lynched through a combination of being really shadey/failing to claim/flipping on his BW read, and probably some other things too.

Jake and I were pretty much best buds but for some reason our replacement IC thinks I'm scum and you're super town (to be fair, everybody thinks you are town). Also Box iirc is scum reading me for not scum reading you.

I'm pretty busy and haven't been able to dedicate much time to the game this phase, or any games really. I want to go back and review the previous day but I just haven't had time.

My main scum pick at the moment is the IC slot/House. Secondary picks - day 1 I had BW/Saad as scum picks. I came to believe BW might be roled town so I stopped putting pressure there but seems like he just vanished, so...I hope his replacement does something.

I want to review Highspace/Pablito slot, as it was one of my initial scummy reads. Anarchist/Box kind of null tier for me. I like Box is HYPE but he keeps pushing this weird angle that I'm not pushing Jake, when he should just be pushing Jake himself if he has an issue with him/you.

There's probably heaps more but Im exhausted and eveyrthing needs to be caught up. Im sorry.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #543 (isolation #49) » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:00 am

I guess if Beast flips scum we can revisit this. Until then, call me old fashioned, let's use actual things that have happened in the game as the basis for scum hunting.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #545 (isolation #50) » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:03 am

Actually just to be clear. Are you using my early day 1 suspicion of Saad/BW as

the basis

for your scum read on BW? Or is it something else?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #547 (isolation #51) » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:23 am

I don't know what you're talking about, and I'll look forward to you one day presenting a case and/or reasons for your vote that aren't based on hypothetical flips in the future.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #548 (isolation #52) » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:24 am

Actually I'll upgrade that to "I'll look forward to you one day presenting a case" instead of just sniping at me from the sidelines.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #556 (isolation #53) » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:03 am

I'm going away for the weekend/Kyoto so VLA, sorry.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #568 (isolation #54) » Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:00 am

I'm back in town and will be able to deal with this properly in a few hours.
In the mean time

@House

You're so desperate to discredit my case that you're using terms that don't even apply.

Sniping from the sidelines is when you're selling a wagon without actually being on it.

Don't shift the goal posts. Sniping from the sidelines means making petty comments and insults that do not relate to game state. To my knowledge you have failed to outline why you think I'm scum. From what I've seen, you entered the game saying "Sky and Beast are scum" and then finished your read with "Yep, Sky and Beast are scum" and then in the next post talked about confirmation bias, as if to validate why your reads might be wrong later down the track. "Oh, Sky flipped town? Must have been confirmation bias. Sorry."

While I have not seen a case from you, I made a case on you here, which you have failed to respond to. Could you please explain?

Also interested in Tia's supposed scum read as this has not been explained and we are down to the last few days of RL in this phase.

I'll address other comments when I get up in the morning although Beast's replacement fake-day-vig in a newbie game that does not have day-vigs at all is purely wtf for me right now.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #594 (isolation #55) » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:04 pm

I'm basically unable to post for another 24 hours. I realise this is cutting in to the last 24 hours of the phase. I have a lot to say but no time.

@Serrapaladin

- request for a 48 hour phase extension to account for our replacements.

I caught somebody saying they wanted one of House/Sky removed no matter what and I want to look in to that player/slot because that looks like a dangerous comment. But I only saw it on my skim yesterday and I haven't got time to look through.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #602 (isolation #56) » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:56 pm

Day 1 analysis:
Final votes and why -

saad (LYNCH) - heyboxgaminig, Seraphim, Anarchist7, bewilderbeast
Seraphim (3) - Sky_Paladin, Jake from State Farm
heyboxgaminig (1) - pablito

nb I've removed casualties from the check.

My main scum hunting tool is viewing where people voted and assessing why they voted. Since scum ultimately have to lie at some point, if I can find a weak vote or two, I can apply pressure and this can yield results. Sadly I've been too busy this day phase to really do this in the depth that I would like. I usually associate frequent vote changes/poorly explained votes with scum MO.

heyboxgaming -
First vote on Saad
Stated reason for unvoting
Essentially revotes due to deadline proximity.
IMO this vote is plausible. Saad was scummy as hell. hbg didn't move his votes around at all.

Seraphim/House-
Votes Saad post 28 for 'serious reasons'. Never clarified what these 'serious reasons' are, right up until phase end when Sky/Jake were voting and demanding an explanation.
Unvote when Saad at L-1. Basically best play (which is why I didn't put Saad or BW at L-1) despite House's misgivings.
Vote for Highspace. I generally agree with this vote. Highspace was being questioned by me prior to this post also.
Back to Saad. Context appears to be the earlier "I am leaning towards a Saad/Highwine scumteam; everyone else (except the Bewilder slot which is a wild card atm) seems pretty town to me" comment (Highwine means Highspace/Pablito because Seraphim was never scum reading Coldwine). This vote put Saad at L-1.
Quotes me asking him to explain his reads and unvotes. Town clears me. This slot loves to hand out arbitrary town clears.

I just discovered that Seraphim never re-voted Saad. Which means the tally given here is incorrect and

we actually achieved a no-lynch on day 1.

Oops.

I'm being interrupted so I'll hit post now and do more when I get back.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #604 (isolation #57) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:20 am

Please don't hammer yet. We have an extension and I'm not done!

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #607 (isolation #58) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:12 pm

Thanks for giving me more time. I got a break. I'm going to do those one at a time for my sanity.

Anarchist -
RVS for Beast/America Homes. Quite reasonable, even provides a sensible reason (rather than a silly RVS one).
Empty unvote, which is strange since Anarchist has just picked apart Beast again in 112.
Doesn't address his vote again until quite late in the phase, threatening a hammer on Saad. This bears review after I'm done checking votes.
Will later vote Saad, unvote, then revote Saad. There's quite a bit of content that I need to look into deeper and case if necessary.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #608 (isolation #59) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:19 pm

Bewilderbeast
RVS on Saad.
Some weird vote and unvote issue with votes on Saad in response to my questioning.
Sticks to 'vote Saad' until unvote Saad a little later on. OK.
Then revote Saad.
Beast vanishes.

This slot has many day 1 issues, including what appeared to be claiming scum/signing out of the game and only interested in voting Saad forever. FYI I just mentioned Saad six times and I'm not even casing him, so that's how I meantioned his name 100 times lol.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #609 (isolation #60) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:33 pm

Jake
RVS vote on Highspace/Pablito.
Votes Bewilderbeast for the same antics I've noted earlier. Seems quite plausible.
Jake spends a lot of time day 1 arguing with Saad, so this vote is telegraphed. The reason for the delay is (presumably) because Saad was at L-2, and Sky/Jake/Seraphim all wanted to avoid putting Saad/BW at L-1 for obvious reasons. Seraphim notably DOES put Saad at L-1 after this and passively asks for a claim.
Unvote, citing focus has only been on Saad/Bewilder, wants pressure to be shared around.
Votes Seraphim after feeling Saad made a good post (I disagreed).

I think all of Jake's votes look basically plausible. I question the unvote on Saad - the comment 'focus has only been on Saad/Bewilder', while true, ignores that there were very valid reasons for scum reading BW at the start of the game. I also disagreed that Saad made a good post, and questioned Jake over it. Which to my mind makes me wonder why Box said I was ignoring Jake, because I clearly wasn't. Not applying pressure != avoiding.

Most of Jake's day 1 content was tunnelling Saad and Beast though.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #610 (isolation #61) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:51 pm

Highspace/Pablito
RVS on me presumably because I've just explained why RVS is good for the game.
Votes BW specifically as a countervote for BW's vote on Saad.
Countervotes/OMGUS on Seraphim. Calls it OMGUS. OK.
Unvote and a really bizarre post about pretending to be confident and then vanishes. Enter, Pablito!
***
Vote for HBG, including mentioning a possible scum slip.

The words "our next kill" still smell like a slip to me.

Unvotes because 'scum read is waning'. Later posts cases and reads as Box/Beast/Saad.
Phase ends. Tally incorrectly shows Pablito voting for Box.

Highspace was basically crazy imo. He wrote many apparently random things. It's hard to get scum intent out of his posts because he never really explained anything (which itself could be read as scum intent).

Pablito is much more level headed. I think his vote on HBG was mainly for the scum slip and retroactively applied reasoning, however it was good reasoning, and his cases for Saad/BW are well thought out and not just made up to fill in the blanks.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #611 (isolation #62) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:14 pm

OK on the review -

Box - Spent a large part of day 1 without a vote. Voted for Saad early in the day, unvoted, and then later re-voted 'due to deadline'. Suggests a 'wait and see' attitude which

is

in line with scum MO.
Seraphim - Vote/unvote on Saad. Basically focusing on Saad except for a brief stint on Highspace. Suggests Saad/Highspace team. Refuses to clarify reason for scum reading Saad yet happy to outline why scum reading Highspace. Actually unvoted his main scum read Saad when he was at L-1 and near deadline. This suggests scum unwilling to be caught on flipped town. However the mod did not catch the unvote.
Anarchist - Questionable unvote on Beast early-mid phase. May have switched reads at some point and 'gone along with the flow', but I want to read in to this to be sure. Vote/unvote/revote/hammer of Saad.
Possible trouble slot. Reviewing next.
Beast - RVS on Saad. Vote/unvote/vote/unvote/etc. Basically crazy, very difficult

to understand

let alone read. Same MO as Box/similarities to Seraphim. Could be scumbuddies or just buddying. Trouble slot.
Jake - A number of sensible-looking votes. Final unvote of Saad is questionable (in my opinion). No real issues with the slot.
High/Pablito - Basically unexplained/defensive voting. Valid HGB vote contrasted with weak unvote. Also not voting at phase end.

Trouble slots:

Beast, possibly Anarchist (will review next).
Not voting:
Seraphim, Pablito*

*

Spoiler:

We had two wagons near phase end (three if you include Beast), which was Seraphim, and Saad. We know at least Saad for sure was town.
Players who need to be held accountable for their decisions would ordinarily be Coldwine, since he hammered, but he's dead and flipped town, so never mind.
Anarchist put Saad at L-1 so he needs to explain his decision to vote Saad instead of Seraphim - perhaps he already did, so I'll review him to assess it.
Seraphim needs to explain his decision to not vote at phase end. Sadly he replaced so we can never get an answer, which is a pity because this slot has a lot to answer for from day 1.
Pablito was empty voting despite having scum reads on both Box and Saad.

So from wagon analysis:
Activity suggests scum amongst Beast/Box/Anarchist.
LACK of activity suggests scum amongst Anarchist/Seraphim/Pablito.

The only player clear from this is Jake, which is a pity since everybody is already town reading him.

Moving in to the ISO of Anarchist. Anarchist got flagged for activity AND lack of activity so that's a problem.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #612 (isolation #63) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:33 pm

ISO of Anarchist.

Vote on BW here, notable comments:
Explanation of vote:

All caught up, and my spidey senses is definitely tingly with regards to bewilderbeast. He jumps all over, he's reasoning is unreasonable, and this made me suspicious as well.

Seems legit.

The wagon on saab did built rather quickly,
I think we need to have a little looksee at who was on there
.
Although this is quite a small game, and with vote counts that aren't regular one might miss how close you are to a lynch. Especially this early on.

Emphasis mine. "I think we need to have a little looksee at who was on there". Ok, who is there?
bewilderbeast
Coldwine
Sky

Contrast with the Bewilderbeast wagon, which at this time has:
heyboxgaming
highspace
Anarchist (who had just voted).

Hey the wagons are equal.
Why is this an issue?

Anarchist cares about who is voting Saad. Anarchist doesn't care who is voting Bewilderbeast.

Implication: Anarchist has a problem with these votes (BW/Coldwine/Sky). And not the votes for BW. Yet BW is himself voting for Saad.
What's the reason a player might be concerned about votes?
Town would care if they think the votes are bad, or if a player they are town reading is getting voted.

Anarchist is not town reading Saad, and explicitly states the reason is

who

is voting, not

why

they are voting.

Scum know when town are being voted. The easiest legitimate content scum can produce is picking apart town cases on town, because they know when a case is true or not.
I feel Anarchist is falling into the second category in this post.

Most importantly, Anarchist

did not have a 'looksee' at the votes himself

.

Moving on.

Anarchist supports his BW vote in a small discussion with Saad, as "Bewilder, if he's completely n00b,has made some very n00bish mistakes, if he is scum" and "He's reasoning does not seem town to me".

In this post, Anarchist focuses on BW's supposed scum slip. For context, the slip was:
BW

Saad probably assumes that I am a mafia, knows he is too, and is trying to help me.

I questioned this at the time because even in face-to-face mafia, which BW is experienced with, mafia know each other.
I couldn't see any possible way for town to say "assumes that I am a mafia, knows he is too, and is trying to help me".

Anarchist asserted that this was a

town-slip

, not a scum-slip, yet then posts:

If you are scum, you are a crappy scum. And if you are town, you don't see very useful to town either.

Which is quite the contrast!

In 103, Anarchist says to BW:

why do you feel the need to start your post with a "@town"

this, and the rest of the post seem like you are trying a little too hard to appear town. No FOS just yet, just saying.

However at this time, Anarchist is already voting BW, so the comment about FoS makes no sense. It kind of looks like hand-holding. He then also takes a shot at Box for trying to appear town, and when questioned by Coldwine, admits he has no reason to see scum!Box.

In 112 Anarchist explains what he means by random voting of BW, which is legit. However, he then empty unvotes in 120. Anarchist then asks what Beast's scum claim was that Jake is talking about, and Jake links Beast's sign-out post, to which Anarchist says how about no.

Considering he wanted to pin BW to a wall for the earlier slip/comment about 'knowing who the mafia was', being willing to let this slide doesn't make sense. After more discussion with Jake (and an unexplained town read on Saad), Anarchist has reversed his position and is now defending Beast. At this point, Anarchist has no scum reads.

Anarchist revises his town read on Saad again, and explains his now town read on Beast, using the 'town-slip' as the only basis for his argument.

313

1. Saad's defense against Jake is very very weak. Also, Saad is just defending himself and not making any attempt at hunting, even before the tunneling from Jake.

2. What's up with all the meta from previous games? I don't like it.

3. bewilder is still looking like n00b town to me. if i'm wrong about him,
then he has done well to fool me
.

Bolded: This looks like crap to me. BW hasn't done anything to fool anybody, least of all Anarchist. Anarchist is basing his town read on a slip and nothing more, a slip that others considered a scum slip, and ignored what other players presented to him.

314 agreeing with Saad lynch because Saad did not defend/hunt.

By 350 is only interested in a Saad lynch, mainly quoting other players and agreeing, not bringing anything new to the table. In 351 he responds to questioning about this re: Pablito.

Vote on Saad and then starts asking questions to other players (Box/Jake/Pablito). Then phase end.

***

I'm starting to suspect an Anarchist/Beast team. Since both of these players are still around in day 2, I want to have a look at their interactions today. OK that didn't take long, there was nothing.

I did notice Anarchists completely unprovoked VT claim though.

Reviewing day 2.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #613 (isolation #64) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:35 pm

Comments:
Box early in the phase pre-emptively countervotes Pablito.
Conversely, Anarchist has a strong town read on Box.
I basically agree with everything Jake said in his wall post on "Why Seraphim/House is scum".
House contradicts himself a bit when he has "good posting" and then "Somebody else I want to keep my eye on" regarding Highspace/Pablito.
House again. Calls out Box for picking Anarchist/Saad as possible scum, but not reading them as scum buddies.
IMO it's completely plausible to have players you think are individualy suspicious and you can't see a way how they relate as a team...yet.
House again. Calls me out for saying that cop!Sky would have investigated Box last night. We now see Box as a major lynch candidate for this day phase. And that is why we cop players who we have a good feeling about but aren't necessarily being town read. This lesson brought to you by: Sky_Paladin, and the number 9.
House again explaining why scum would kill Coldwine. IMO Coldwine was not being townread by a whole heap of people; so ???
House again handwave dismiss of Jake's case. Well Jake is gone so that magic trick appears to have worked; IMO House didn't credibly respond to this, and he also did not credibly respond to my case either. Still my number 1 scumread. Would lynch.

@Box

Re 509

"Also I find it interesting that you bring up that jake has spread around the conversation with everybody... yet he seems to shy away from you? I may be mistaken but i don't see a direct conversation he has had with you yet? Along with this your town reading him and... I don't know, it seems like a way to sneak in that you find him town but maintaining a safe distance from a scum buddy."

This was directed at paladin. Now you see I know for a fact that she ignored this completely as she answered the first part, the part where I asked if his answer was good enough, so when the rest was ignored it just made me feel even more suspecuis.

I didn't ignore the second part. I answered the second part and explained that you were mistaken. Off the top of my head I can recall asking Jake to explain his Seraphim read and also to explain why he felt Saad's one big post was worthy of a town read. I'm not explicitly avoiding Jake, I just don't see much reason to vote him right now. If you think there is, then please explain it.

and i called him a she.

I am a guy but I have a female avatar so it happens. I'm not fussed. I just like the character.

Anarchist's 530 concerns me. "We need to get bewildered back in the game. I'm not getting any SR off the current active players." as if predisposed to a scum read/vote on BW.

Box 531 is interesting and provides a contrasting reason for Coldwine death, as in 'wagon placement' rather than 'never be lynched', as posited by House. Since I think House's theory is not really accurate there might be something to this. In which case...........

we previously established that Seraphim/House was not actually on the wagon.

The vote tally at end of day 1 was incorrect.

@House

This kind of prissy attitude, the "I am right and you are wrong so I don't have to explain anything" really needs to go. I don't care if you are an IC or a beginning player. Either you are town - working to help solve the game - or you are scum, in a position to already know the puzzle and impatiently waiting for everybody to screw it up.

@House

again with the prissy attitude, this time having been clear that you aren't mistaking anybody for me.

I'm happy with my reads. Do your own homework. If you think I'm scum for it, vote away.

You are being asked to explain your reads because it looks like you are fabricating them. I don't accept "I am tired of leading town mislynches" as a valid reason not to scum hunt or explain your reads.

@Pablito

Also, Sky, you're getting awfully perturbed for a fake day-vig, that I've seen in many a newbie games before.

I wasn't perturbed. I was 'wtf'. As in "What did you expect this to achieve?" American threatened to dayvig House, who certainly knew the threat was empty. What was the point?

And I'm caught up. Brill. Now to review the Box case/wagon and see if I agree with it.

Late day 1 I was starting to feel good about Beast's slot. There was still plenty of things wrong with it but I didn't see it as scummy as Saad/Seraphim. America's replacement in to the game has been pretty good so far. So at this stage I'm considering an Anarchist vote because of the awkwardness of the interactions with Saad/Beast, because Beast might still be scum after all, or House for replacing in to a scummy slot and being scummy on his own right.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #614 (isolation #65) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:42 pm

So I went to review the case on Heyboxgaming and I couldn't find one.

vote 1 - Lia

I'm most confident in my box read so that's where I'll be voting.

vote 2 - House

Do something.

vote 3 - Pablito

Im parking my vote on hbg.

Somebody want to explain why they are voting Box?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #616 (isolation #66) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:04 pm

...

You won't even explain your vote? OK sure.
You don't even care that the other two votes on the wagon aren't explained?

And this doesn't seem strange to you at all?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #618 (isolation #67) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:23 pm

I just can't deal with your pigheadedness. You literally cannot explain any of your votes other than "I am right so you must be wrong." My God, how are you an IC?

VOTE: House

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #620 (isolation #68) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:47 pm

I did not ask you to explain your read on me. I did not outline a case defending Box.

I asked you to explain your vote on Box.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #622 (isolation #69) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:58 pm

Oh wait, actually I DID ask you to explain your read on me here, but surprise surprise, you ignored it.

cut -

Uh are you going to actually defend yourself Box? Got any scum reads?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #627 (isolation #70) » Fri May 01, 2015 3:55 am

You're not understanding my issue.

Town want to be heard, because the game is not just 'finding scum', it's also about 'persuading others to believe that you are right'. Players should be held accountable for their vote. Scum ultimately have to lie about their reasoning at some point, and we identify that reasoning when we get a player to explain their reads. I said it in the start - I scum hunt by holding people accountable for their votes. Can't explain your vote? WON'T explain your vote? Can't explain your reads? WON'T explain your reads? Won't discuss reasonably with town? This is a person who doesn't want to communicate. This is a player who does not want to be held accountable.

Who does not want to be held accountable? Scum do not want to be held accountable!

On day 1 I tried hard to get Seraphim to explain his Saad read. He never did it.
On day 2, House won't explain his reads. Same slot, same problem.
Then we have Lia who hasn't explained anything and made a grand total of three post this phase. Yes she came in to universally town-read Jake slot, but that doesn't mean she is *actually* town.
And then there's your vote.

When I went to case Box to see if I agreed with the wagon (as opposed to pushing Anarchist/House) I couldn't find easily what the big deal was. So I asked for an explanation, an explanation that thus far has failed to eventuate.

Box may yet flip scum and I will have a difficult day 3 because of it. But I've yet to see a case explaining why he is scum over (say) Bewilder, or more likely, House.

And that's why I am calling foul. This wagon emerged from nowhere, and I want an explanation.

cut by Lia* OK.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #628 (isolation #71) » Fri May 01, 2015 4:05 am

But tbh Box's apathy and guess-I'm-dead attitude really gets me down. I would have expected a town!Box to get pissed about a wagon on him. This defeatist attitude makes me wonder if I'm wasting my time.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #632 (isolation #72) » Sat May 02, 2015 2:48 am

- Still no input from Anarchist. Has me very bothered as I don't recall him having any opinions (a quick check shows he has no scum reads and still no scum reads). We are down the the last 30 or so hours of the phase so I don't like it. It looks like scum coasting.

- I don't consider myself to be defending Box - I was more attacking Pablito/Lia/House for their votes and non-explanations.

- I'm not especially town or scum reading Box. I had him as mid-tier, leaning town. The apathy towards being lynched, and not even countervoting House, has me concerned. Was this a pre-planned bus?

- Speaking of which, Box should probably countervote House (why he didn't already concerns me). This will tie the wagons at 3:3 and mean Anarchist has the deciding vote. I'm considering to unvote because I don't particularly trust Anarchist since he already hammered town before, and now looks to be in a good position to be the hammerer again. I don't like coincidences.

- My town read on Jake-slot is waning to null. Not really appreciating the vanishing act.

- Conversely, American Homes real estate value going up in my eyes.

- Not really happy with Pablito's "Don't care to explain my case". I scrolled back almost a weeks worth of content to find something that was the closest hint of a case, and that wasn't even a scum read. Still, it's more than what Lia/House have given :V

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #634 (isolation #73) » Sun May 03, 2015 4:58 am

8 hours to phase end. I'll be back to hammer just before deadline if necessary. I'm not seeing scum!Box but him failing to even countervote House leaves no viable alternative/Anarchist not even showing up to post fills me with foreboding.

What vanishing act? Jake didn't just vanish, he asked to be replaced. And why did you make a point of saying earlier that I had "made a grand total of three posts" when there were actually six? (Seven if you include the one I posted just before yours.)

'Three' was a hyperbole; I didn't remember you making any posts of value. I don't have time to do anything right now, if we're both alive in the next day phase I'll address this.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #643 (isolation #74) » Fri May 08, 2015 5:04 am

I'm considering if we should mass claim at this point.

I'm basically considering the failure of House/Pablito/Lia to explain why they were voting Box in the first place as concerning; I'm doubly-concerned that House apparently lynched somebody he wasn't really scum reading, and that the only other person interested in lynching House got night killed. Sigh. Of course.

It's 1 am, more to do when I get up.

Also

@mod

can we get a prod or replace for Anarchist please.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #646 (isolation #75) » Fri May 08, 2015 8:37 pm

What are you expecting to get out of a mass claim?

Hmmmm.

With a join date of March 2014, this is surely not your first game of mafia.

5 players and 2 scum means that today is lynch-or-lose (LYLO).

Full claiming is very common in LYLO, with players also reporting their night actions in the previous phases to help narrow down who the scum might be.

Claiming today yields the greater likelihood of lynching correctly today (because we will be able to use process-of-elimination by comparing claims vs roles in the game) offset with the disadvantage that scum can make a very accurate hit in the following night phase making the next LYLO more difficult. Full claiming either this day phase or in the following day phase (should we get one!) is very useful.

***

Sky, I didn't make a huge post talking about why I was voting heybox at that moment in time, but I don't think my previous posts haven't pointed at my rationale either. For you to feel that I haven't justified my vote is just poor listening skills.

I had to scroll quite a ways back in the day to see anything that remotely looked like a reason for scum reading Box.

If you don't explain your read before a flip then it's basically useless. That's why I pressed Seraphim so explain his read on Saad, and why I pressed House to get his read on Box - because I felt these reads were fabricated, and before a flip, you can more easily get the real intent from somebody's actions. If I pressure House to explain his scum read on Box now, it doesn't really have much value because we all know the guy flipped town so there's little basis to argue it.

I made it clear my opinion on Saad/Seraphim/House/Box during the phases before either wagon flipped. Was anybody ever in doubt what I thought or believed? That's what you should be aspiring to.

Anarchist has basically vanished. My value in the Lia slot has gone done since she failed to explain her reads on day 2. Out of the three of Pablito/House/Lia, Pablito made what I consider to make the most effort to communicate and be understood, although both Pablito/House engaged in "I don't have to explain myself

to you

" type comments which reek of scum arrogance.

I was wrong about Saad. I was right about Bewilder/Homes, and I was right about Heyboxgaming. I was right about Coldwine. My opinion on House is well known...possibly why Sky/House were left alive imo since we're likely to fight. All my town and leaning-town-null reads are dead :/

I invite everyone to share their thoughts and feelings about everybody.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #650 (isolation #76) » Sat May 09, 2015 3:17 am

I did answer your question!

Claiming today yields the greater likelihood of lynching correctly today (because we will be able to use process-of-elimination by comparing claims vs roles in the game) offset with the disadvantage that scum can make a very accurate hit in the following night phase making the next LYLO more difficult. Full claiming either this day phase or in the following day phase (should we get one!) is very useful.

At the very least I expected to see some discussion on who is for/against a full claim, because scum are ordinarily hateful of a full claim, and town power roles are ordinarily down with it (at least in my experience). House completely ignored it though so not sure what to make of that.
The end goal of a mass claim is to pool enough information that we can process-of-elimination identify the two scums, so what I expected was "to identify 1 or both scums by POE" at some point this day phase.

It seems like you're mainly defensive/deflecting. Do you have something to contribute that is not reactive?

House

Pop quiz: If I'm scum, why didn't I kill the only person that's scum reading me?

Well uh America Homes

was

scum reading you (or at least town reading me) so...yeah.
I guess it goes both ways; if I was scum I totally would have shot you because you're the only one putting heat on me.

I can't PR hunt worth a damn, so there's no way I'd take a pot shot in the dark and hope for the best when I have somebody breathing down my throat that I can get rid of.

I was pretty sure that Bewilderbeast was roled town from about midway through day 1, as stated during day 2 as my reason for taking pressure off of him day 1. So you can probably conclude that if I was on the scum team, the night kills would have been BW night 1, and House night 2.

I'm busy this weekend but I have time during the week to go back and check interactions. If I put on my 'House could be town' hat for a little bit, that leaves Pablito/Lia or Lia/Anarchist or Anarchist/Pablito teams. I'll go back and check for interactions between those three groups.

To be honest, I didn't specifically see any interaction tells from House in my memory. I found him completely scummy for his own independent action but I'll reserve judgement til I've had a chance to go over the thread.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #663 (isolation #77) » Sun May 10, 2015 10:14 pm

I'm busy this weekend but I have time during the week to go back and check interactions. If I put on my 'House could be town' hat for a little bit, that leaves Pablito/Lia or Lia/Anarchist or Anarchist/Pablito teams. I'll go back and check for interactions between those three groups.

I'll be available in around 12 hours to go through the thread properly and come to my own conclusions if the game isn't over by then. Please cool down and justify your scum reads so the rest of us can make a proper decisions.

To claim/not claim is also on the table, please discuss.

@Radiant: I'd like to see a post from you detailing your reason for handing out your reads. While I appreciate that you've scumread House/voted House, I'd like to know *why* you think he is scum, and better yet, who you think is a plausible scum buddy.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #667 (isolation #78) » Mon May 11, 2015 11:07 am

My scumread on House was correct given the lack of a quickhammer after everyone has posted.

This may be true; but there's no way for us to know that at this point. Perhaps you are scum, and that's why there's been no quickhammer. Perhaps House is scum, and that's why there's been no quickhammer. Or perhaps scum simply haven't been online at the same time to quickhammer yet and it's town cross voting.

That ain't me.

I've said it before, and I'll no doubt have to say it again.
Town want to be understood and communicate. Mafia isn't just about catching scum, it's also about being able to communicate *why* that player is scum, so that you can persuade (or trick!) town in to voting.

Town want to be held accountable for their votes and actions, because their votes and actions are ultimately based on truth and can be explained.
Mafia do not want to be held accountable, because at some stage they must lie. They must be ambiguous, or unclear, or obfuscate their meaning in some way.
Town wants to explain their reads so that they can persuade others and generate useful discussion that can help catch out the ones trying to stop it.
Mafia do not want to explain what they are doing for as long as possible, because as long as the town focus is elsewhere, they are safe.

My main basis for scum reading House/Seraphim was a failure, in my opinion, to explain reads.
My main basis for being suspicious of the Jake/Lia slot is, in my opinion, a failure to explain reads, coupled with what appears to be completely unwarranted defensive or closed nature.
My main basis for being worried about the Pablito slot is, in my opinion, an apparent inability to explain why they scum read Box, and the predecessor Highspace's very shady day 1, after we've now got town flips on Saad/Bewilder.

So when you fail to explain why you have scum read/town read anybody, when I hold up the yard stick that I've measured everybody else with to you, I can't easily distinguish 'town' from 'scum' in your content. I have no basis to recognize if you've legitimately got a scum read on House because of your review of the thread, or if you've just come in, seen House and I fighting, and picked the side that you think is easiest to lynch.

For House's part, he at least started with 'now my reads are all screwed up' which says to me he is going to review the thread and come up with some new evidence, rather than just voting me based on his day 2 reads list. And I'm prepared to wait for him (and you) to give out this information to help others and I to make a better, more informed decision.

Everybody here invested significant time and effort into getting the game to this point. It's been a long time. Scum no doubt are eager to push a quickhammer if the option is there. Town, though, want to make the right choice. You've just replaced in and think you know everything? Sure, maybe you do, you've been on the forum longer than most of us. But please take the time to enlighten us newbies so that we can see your point of view. Many thanks.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #668 (isolation #79) » Mon May 11, 2015 11:08 am

I guess that rules out Sky-Pablito too, lol.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #670 (isolation #80) » Mon May 11, 2015 11:10 am

Sigh.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #671 (isolation #81) » Mon May 11, 2015 11:12 am

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #680 (isolation #82) » Mon May 11, 2015 12:07 pm

My final theory as to the scumteam is Lia/House.

Positive about House, well over 90% on Lia.

My sigh was because, after all the effort we put in, the game was decided in such a trivial manner. LYLO does tend to end like this though so don't feel too bad about it.

I'll put in a post-game write-up in a little bit. I speculate Lia was the tracker btw.

I've blown up my own share of LYLO's however so some general tips for LYLO -

1 - Don't vote. Seriously, don't vote. There's plenty of time in the phase, use it.
2 - Full claim. There's no reason not to since it's GG if ANY of you make the wrong decision, so get all the information on the table so you can sort out who is confirmed town and have a great chance at figuring out at least one scum, which is all you need to do to get to the next day phase.
3 - Explain your reads. EXPLAIN EXPLAIN EXPLAIN. Question. Discuss!
4 - Find out where everybody wants to vote and then decide if you agree or not. Do step 3 again.
5 - When everybody is done, vote. Or if somebody is stalling, vote the stalling player.

I've tried explaining my tells to people. They don't listen.

You did not explain your tells this game, and I am people. I was very eager to listen.

Most people think that where people vote or how people act are tells. All the wifomy stuff. It's bogus, it really is.

It totally isn't bogus!

***

It was 3 votes to lynch, so my vote was the hammer. You may wish to take that in to account for your scum read on House/Lia.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #682 (isolation #83) » Mon May 11, 2015 12:14 pm

Wow, okay.

I guess I screwed up.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #686 (isolation #84) » Mon May 11, 2015 12:23 pm

Anarchist was an early town read, but he became null due to non-content/vanishing act. You failing to explain your reads/super confident on House without listening to very valid points about votes from both Lia and Pablito (at least one of whom you should have believed was town, since there can't be a Lia-House-Pablito scumteam) was also very dangerous.

TBH I think Lia probably should have been the main direction of pressure this phase, right up until she actually claimed tracker and outed her night 2 result which should have narrowed down today's lynch to only 3 players, unless scum felt like counter claiming the tracker.

I have no idea what Anarchist would have done if he was still around, but given his role in hammering Saad/reads day 2 I think he would have probably gone for House > Pablito, so if Lia tracked House last night and got 'no action' then today may have been very different.

I'll save all points for a post game write up once Serra has had his chance as moderator to do his thing.