NEWBIE 1693 />_ TO_ARCHIVE

[RadiantCowbells]

Basically I replaced into this game to do one thing.

VOTE: Thor

this is scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think Thor probably isn't bussing.

[RadiantCowbells]

For the record that opener was a reaction test.
However, Thor's reaction to it was awful so it just became a real thing.
I'll read his iso and catch up on the game in general shortly.

[RadiantCowbells]

Patriotic american? no. I'm not even american.
And I think we both know that I'm NOT in fact lacking in meta on you.

[RadiantCowbells]

Hell, I didn't even mention meta in my read.
Why would you bring up meta unless you have a guilty conscience about the fact that your meta makes you look bad here?

[RadiantCowbells]

There's a 50% chanceish that I fully read this in 4 hours or so, if I don't I will do it tomorrow morning and have useful content by then.

Thor's last two are not changing my read there.

[RadiantCowbells]

Alright, today is catch up day.

[RadiantCowbells]

Got caught up doing actual work instead of playing mafia.

I shall acquire some alcohol and then smash this game.

[RadiantCowbells]

Alcohol is acquired.

Game smashing will commence momentarily.

[RadiantCowbells]

P1/P2

Towny: {Monogarden}
Null Line:
Scumlean: {Micc, PhantomCobalt}
Scummy: {Grendel}

Side note: I'm wary that Col Mongoose is playing up his newbiness which would make him likely scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

ya those P1 P2 reads are awesome.

P3:

Towny: {Pants98, Thor, Monogarden}
Null Line:
Scummy: {Grendel}

[RadiantCowbells]

Continuing is not permitted until further drinking is established so give me a while.

Thor, what are your thoughts on me as a player? I'm curious. And this is purely a question I ask for alignment indicative reasons.

[RadiantCowbells]

JUMP TO />_ vote_count />_

how are you still voting pants

how are you still voting pants

how are you still voting pants

how are you still voting pants

how are you still voting pants

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: Grendel

[RadiantCowbells]

it's really good to hear your voice saying my name it sounds so sweet
coming from the lips of an angel hearing those words it makes me weak

Townlean: {Thor, Pants}
Null Line:
scumlean: {Lt ImANoob}
scum: {Grendel}

so orange is mr. dumbtell city huh.

[RadiantCowbells]

something I've been tihnking is that mono/grendel makes some sense but they have an /extremely/ good rapport.
I'd wonder if they'd be able to keep that discussion that natural as scumpartners with no prior history with each other.

[RadiantCowbells]

That's up to page 4.

I am pretending that I'm somewhat else and going page by page.

[RadiantCowbells]

Page 5:

Town: {Pints98}
Townlean: {Roth566}
Null Line:
{HawbzDunkin}
{Grendel}

[RadiantCowbells]

Gonomarden, wanna throw me out a quick reads list?

[RadiantCowbells]

this thor vs pants dynamic looks like

town vs town

while scum are coasting by

doesn't it tho?

I MEAN DOESN'T IT THO

like jfc

[RadiantCowbells]

nevermind fuck you and your EM style posting.

VOTE: Orange

[RadiantCowbells]

</3.

[RadiantCowbells]

Town: {Dance98}
Townlean: {Annoying EMer Orange, Fork}
Null:
Scumlean: {Calvin}
Scum: {that scummy dude}

so basically I can stop reading now and we can systematically lynch Grendel -> Hobbes -> Mono and win.

for the record.

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: Grendel

glad to policy lynch Orange for being an EMer though if we're into that kind of thing.

I'm open minded

[RadiantCowbells]

holy fuck hobbes can you supply me one of those belgian waffles that you're peddling?

[RadiantCowbells]

You're none of those. you are in that null category because I kinda wanna scumread you but you don't make sense with eithero f my other major scumreads y'know so I'm throwing you into null.

I can add your name if you want to read quirky renditions of your name

Seriously, though, why did you start out the game wanting to vote Thor and now I'm...not sure where he is on your list but he certainly doesn't seem to top scum.

Were you just joking/meta about wanting to lynch him?

I absolutely loathed the way he reacted to my vote on him.
I asked the question about the way he views me as a player for a reason. If he gives an answer to it I dislike I may scumread him again for that alone.

I'm still going! but feel free to ask questions.

[RadiantCowbells]

I may be over speculating on this, but in the event that Cobalt is town, (as he could be either), I think he may be trying to tunnel the person he suspects to be scum so that they'll get him lynched, and in the process he can incriminate the lyncher once he flips. I'm probably wrong, but his bizarre behavior and how he keeps acting like he has this big plan all coming together makes me think he'd be that guy who likes self destructive strategies. Probably has a big conspirisary theory on each of us lol. (In a rather extreme example) This reminds me of the last game I played their was a fellow who was dead set that anybody who'd vote against him was a mafia, he intentionally got him self lynched in a "reaction test", but for the most part it was only townies that had voted him off- why? Because he was acting ridiculously scummy! Go figure!

I kinda want to spend an hour going over why this pings me so badly.

[RadiantCowbells]

like literally if I was a uni mafia teacher I'd pull this line up and sit in front of the class and talk about why it's such a scumfuck post for like 2 hours and I'd talk through rbeaks and pissed off at me because no breaks and I'd just be like fuck it learn this shit.

[RadiantCowbells]

RadiantCowbells: {RadiantCowbells}
Katamari Damacy: {Pants98}
Batman: {Orange}
heaaay goodbye: {Monogarden, Fork}
Scummy Waffle Vendor: {Hobbes}
the fuck is this shit doing alive: {Grendel}

[RadiantCowbells]

^ page 7

[RadiantCowbells]

That post definitely moves you up the list of "people I want to keep around" if not the " towniest players" list.

Do you harbor a secret crush on Grendel that you're not telling anyone about?

[RadiantCowbells]

this page is actually like

[RadiantCowbells]

pants can you, the moment you read this post, smack yourself in the face? please?

[RadiantCowbells]

like if you pay transport I can do it for you when my exams are done.

[RadiantCowbells]

{[]}{O r a n g e b o y s}
{[]}{Fork, heyboysihammeredthetracker}
{[]}{probs couldn't scale an anthill}
{[]}{terrible philosopher basketball player}
{[]}{not really looking for breadcrumbs}

[RadiantCowbells]

like page 8 drove me to drink.

you are responsible.

[RadiantCowbells]

Crap, I totally didn't think about that. Glad you caught that before discussion was ended prematurely.

UNVOTE: Pants

This is so awks.

[RadiantCowbells]

ALRIGHT.

I AM OFFICIALLY UP TO DATE.

Town: {Orange, Pants98}
Probtown: {Fork}
Leaning Town: {Monogarden}
Heavy FoS: {HobbesDuncan}
Scum: {Grendel}

[RadiantCowbells]

An Ode To Grendel: A Haiku By RadiantCowbells

grendel is obvscum
all must vote him when they can
get the scum lynching

[RadiantCowbells]

because I am RC.

[RadiantCowbells]

so what you're saying is that I'm going to need to give explanations and examples instead of just relying on "welp I'm RC."

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean you're waffling.

going back and forth on your reads, not taking positions.

[RadiantCowbells]

Well that does serve as an alternate explanation for your reaction, Mr. Fork.
I felt like you were trying to discredit my read on you outright which felt scummy because I felt like you'd at least try to work with me if you were town.
So I'll move on from that.

The purpose of this exercise wasn't to show any thought processes to anyone, it was to get me personally on track about the game.
My primary scumread is also your tertiary scumread is also sufficiently obvscum that I expect the votes to pile on so I'm going to actually not do much else of note.
I'm not much for wallposting and intensely debating the relative scum merits of various plays. That ain't me.

If it'll take a case to get Grendel lynched though, I may be able to cook something up.

[RadiantCowbells]

I can't understand 85% of what I just read.

What don't you understand?

The page and a half of "Lolz" that RC wrote.

It served two purposes

1) To provide a structured way to force me to close read the game thoroughly and get my notes down on paper.
2) To show you that I'm actually coming from somewhere even if you don't fully understand it.

It's not really meant for your consumption so much as it is giving you a general picture of what I thought about different points in the game.

[RadiantCowbells]

Will I get promoted from journeyman if this is the third consecutive game in a row that you will have played with me where I was right about every last scum player?

[RadiantCowbells]

JUMP TO />_ vote_count />_

ALL HAIL RC

SUPREME CHAMPION OF THE ACTIVITY OVERVIEW

[RadiantCowbells]

Let's make a bet.

I bet Grendel will get lynched and Pants98 won't.

[RadiantCowbells]

Fork.

[RadiantCowbells]

Alright Orange, fight me.

Why are you still voting Pants98?

[RadiantCowbells]

Orange, are you willing to vote Grendel at this time?

[RadiantCowbells]

That's sad.

Could you do Hobbes?

[RadiantCowbells]

like pants is obvtown.
we're not lynching it.
who are your other options even?

[RadiantCowbells]

pants.

is.

obvtown.

are you really claiming you can't read between the lines? cuz I wanna BoP you right now.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay, let's just save everyone a week of trouble.

Pants, claim.

[RadiantCowbells]

(hint: he doesn't claim VT)

[RadiantCowbells]

In fact don't claim.

Just tell everyone that you're PR so we can move on to actual lynches.

[RadiantCowbells]

Your message contains too many smilies. The maximum number of smilies allowed is 12.

[RadiantCowbells]

[RadiantCowbells]

I still say he's town but as a statement for the health of the site that can't be allowed.

VOTE: Pants98

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm town.

I imagine the only reason to hammer a PR claim is because you don't believe it because you are PR and waiting for them to claim something that does or doesn't contradict yours.

[RadiantCowbells]

I assumed that he was town and that no town would be dumb enough to hammer in that situation outside of being a PR.

Clearly I was mistaken on one of those counts.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't botch my plays as scum.

I think neither of us are scum but you're a mafia traitor and real scum Grendel/Hobbes are lurksacking and avoiding your eye.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think you have a very high opinion of your ability but it's not backed up by what I've seen from you.

Also, if you thought that was the case - why wouldn't he have waited to hear the claim first?

Because lack of understanding of the setup and a knee jerk reaction that OMG HE CLAIMED PR HE IS SCUM HE CC

[RadiantCowbells]

My predecessor was generally townread.
I could have come in here and oh so easily hard bussed Pants if he was my scumpartner, killed Orange, let you go off on every last townie who disagrees with you and collect my free win.
Your confbias needs to stop.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like, you think I changed my mind about hard bussing my partner now?
There's no investigatives left. I don't give a shit about who the BP or Doc is if I'm scum.
I would explicitly NOT want Pants to claim PR because that would make things look coached and that's no bueno for me.

[RadiantCowbells]

If my 180 on deciding to lynch Pants strikes you as dissonant, read any of the many newbie games I've played where I've explicitly stated that I'm policy lynching play that I deem unacceptable regardless of alignment.
Can you like, not?

[RadiantCowbells]

I want this game over more than I want to punish silly play.

VOTE: Grendel

Case inc.

[RadiantCowbells]

Pants, why are you not posting?

[RadiantCowbells]

Actually Pants might be scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

You all will lynch Pants at some point when I'm dead though so I'm going to pick one of {Grendel/Hobbes} and that's going to be the focus today.

[RadiantCowbells]

No, actually.

If you want me to push the lynch away make an effort.

[RadiantCowbells]

JUMP TO />_ vote_count />_

Like if you're town, you came flying in and quickhammered a PR and are just sitting here doing absolutely nothing?

that's not acceptable.

[RadiantCowbells]

full reads list w/ reasons pls ty.

[RadiantCowbells]

like your ISO basically consists of three things.

1) People are taking advantage of my newbiness to frame me!
2) Doing terrible things and trying to brush it off and scumreading people who called you out for it.
3) Laziness and lack of commitment.

Go actually do something.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'll still go on the record here saying that I think your slot is scum but at this point I'm tired of trying to defend you if you're not going to make an effort yourself.

[RadiantCowbells]

think your slot is town*

[RadiantCowbells]

I see no issue with this juxtaposition.

Why would he ask for a claim then?

Because he thought probscum but wanted to be sure but no claim so he hammered.
Easy!

Sure - why not?

Because I'm better than that

If true, you're not playing scum optimally.

I don't worry about such trivialities as non-investigative PRs.

Presuming you're both town (or, even, you being town and him scum) how would that be any different than what just went down? You were coaching him - the only question is if you were scum coaching him to fakeclaim, or if you were town thinking he's a PR and wanting to out him to reposition the wagons. There is no question that there was coaching or motive - the question is which motive for the coaching we believe - I am not buying that you think it is an outlandish theory scum plan though. It is a quite basic and simple scum plan.

Coached him? I blatantly told him to. I wouldn't call that 'coaching' but perhaps this is a difference in how we choose to use that word.
My motive was to get him outed so everyone would stop the rubbish and I could lynch scumlordz.

And no, you're missing my point. It is quite a basic and simple scum plan; hence, I would not have made it.
I can do better

Link?
And, also, now that you've backed off of it - is that also meta normal?

Yeah, pretty much!

Let me clarify this.

You are going to get autolynched tomorrow for failing to selfhammer here as VT.

If you don't hammer today you will get hammered tomorrow, 100% certainty. no questions. the only chance of not dying is a cop inno; which wastes a cop check.
Cop wouldn't even be checking you because you're essentially confirmed as scum by not hammering.

Either way, it's far better for town for you to selfhammer.

If you fail to do so I will interpret it as a scumclaim.

No, it wasn't.
Unless you're scum.
This wagon was awful.

I honestly want to just policy lynch Youmu tomorrow and call it a day. That's completely unacceptable in a newbie.

[RadiantCowbells]

Why are you talking about my posts so passively?

[RadiantCowbells]

That's not what I'm referring to.

[RadiantCowbells]

In the last 2 years I've been lynched as scum once. It required both of my scum hard bussing me and led to the instalynch of two town players in return for it.
But no, you caught me on this right after I replaced in after I super sloppily let my position on my scumpartner go every which way.
Feel free to do some meta analysis of your own: you will never see such happen in one of my scumgames.

Like, if you think I'm scum, my scumpartner in this game would 100% be either Orange or Hobbes. Someone I've maintained a position on and made an effort to keep associatives running with.

As for everyone who isn't scum and/or Fork, let's lynch Grendel.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't believe that you are truly capable of revisiting positions that you are invested in.

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean it's not exactly difficult for you to obtain evidence that some people, at least, believe that I have a pretty decent scumgame!

[RadiantCowbells]

Like if your case doesn't consist of how I'm planning out an endgame that favours me it's a shit case.

[RadiantCowbells]

It's obvious and therefore bad.

Questions?

[RadiantCowbells]

Like you think everyone looks at the game the way you do and it limits you to an incredible extent.
If you were capable of putting yourself in others' shoes we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I don't seek victory by putting myself one step closer to victory every turn by outing PR, removing PR, trying to score lynches, etc.
Your case on me being that I'm doing that in a blatant and obvious way should basically confirm me as town or at least not scum with Pants98.

I'm sorry that you're more obvious than you think.

See, this is why I can't stand you and your ilk.

You have 0 introspection. You're going to go into postgame and blame everyone but yourself for the loss when in reality you're blind and egocentric and couldn't put two and two together if you had a slide rule. You see my play as derp because you're too narrow minded to understand it.

I'm not going to debate with you and will instead focus my effort on convincing others. Maybe if we see a scum flip you'll come around. I doubt it; you'll probs just push me as partner.
Or maybe I'll get lynched, you'll continue to tunnel town, they'll get lynched, and you'll blame us for playing 'bad town' in post game.
But either way, I'm not going to continue this discussion with you.

[RadiantCowbells]

This is incredibly unproductive.

I think I'll actually case someone now.

[RadiantCowbells]

I really want to just come out and say that Thor is pretending to be a brick wall to push his case strategically.
But my heart's not in that at this point so I'll go do something else for now.

[RadiantCowbells]

JUMP TO />_ vote_count />_

Actually nah.

I'm not casing anyone till Pants provides some actual content.

[RadiantCowbells]

Hobbes, that means you too!

[RadiantCowbells]

In fact, that goes out to everyone.
I have seen absolutely no real content from anyone in this game since I replaced in and started doing things.
That is unacceptable and that is how you end up with apathy town losses.

Please post your thoughts. There's plenty of stuff that just happened to discuss.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm a guy.
I've made no secret of leaning a townread on you and such makes your case on me for talking to you like you're town nonexistent.
Trying to rush a lynch on me though, that feels bad.

[RadiantCowbells]

I never said that I'm 'outraged'.
I don't see how it's possible to get 'RC is mad' from my previous post.
It's more, somewhat contemptuous? Just like kind of fed up with the kind of players who deathtunnel over crap, are completely unable to see other people's PoVs, and think wallposting "analysis" is pro bono?

I'm fatigued.

I also explicitly said 'trying'.

Like, you've literally twice now tried to pick arguments that are explicitly refuted by obvious answers.

You called me out for talking to you like you were town when I explicitly said my heart isn't in scumreading you.
You called me out for believing that you will be able to 'rush' a lynch on me when I explicitly used the word 'try'.

Is this the best you can do?

[RadiantCowbells]

In fact, that goes out to everyone.
I have seen absolutely no real content from anyone in this game since I replaced in and started doing things.
That is unacceptable and that is how you end up with apathy town losses.

Please post your thoughts. There's plenty of stuff that just happened to discuss.

Repeating this.
I want content from more people.

[RadiantCowbells]

In fact, I think Thor might be scared.

I'm going to reread and see if Thor/Grendel is a thing.

This push on me feels really chainsawy, the way he started going into instant MUST PUSH A QUICKLYNCH mode when I said I was reconsidering the possibility of him being scum, and just the fact that I don't remember Thor pissing me off like this as town. Like I think in general he's pretty narrow minded and one direction but what he's been doing this game has been flat out brick wall and it's starting to bug me.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like Hobbes/Grendel was kinda a thing but I wasn't -really- feeling it.
This feels a lot better to me.

[RadiantCowbells]

@Mod, we have Hobbes and Mono currently in prod range.
Can we get prods please?

[RadiantCowbells]

Vote: Pants

Also, after reading Micc, I would be supportive of a Grendel lynch as well.

Grendel ISO is uncertain. I like some of their reads on things, nothing seems blatantly unnatural or forced, except for some of their early case on PC, but those early reads and their reactions to Thor going after them give me pause. I... guess I'm still leaning town on them? I'd put them as less likely than Mono or Orange for a Pants scumpartner. I definitely don't see a Grendel/Thor scumteam, just because of this day phase- Thor was at least somewhat pursuing a case on them, which there'd be no reason to do if they were scumteam. Doesn't make sense to bus someone when they haven't done anything particularly scummy and nobody is going after them.

It's called distancing.
He put him as a scumread then the moment that I tried to ramp up pressure on Grendel he backed off from that and pushed on me instead.
How does that make you townread him?

[RadiantCowbells]

For the record, it's

extremely

common for scum to put each other in their scumreads but never push on each other directly.
That's precisely what Thor did regarding Grendel.

[RadiantCowbells]

In fact, this is a carbon copy of a situation I was in last time I played with Scum!Thor.

Let me pull up the relevant quotes for you.

[RadiantCowbells]

Me calling Shinobi scum and telling Thor that since he scumreads him he should vote him.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p7034816

Thor deflecting and refocusing on other people.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7034963

Crap logic.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p7035047

Crap logic leading to a vote on me.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p7035077

[RadiantCowbells]

Me calling Grendel scum, minus the specifically telling Thor that since he scumreads him he should vote him.

An Ode To Grendel: A Haiku By RadiantCowbells

grendel is obvscum
all must vote him when they can
get the scum lynching

Thor deflecting and focusing on other people.

Pants is blatantly going to be the lynch - so unless you support that, yes, you should be creating a case and engaging people. I'm the only one even vaguely seeming to have issue with Grendel - and I'm still voting Pants, so...y'know...

Crap logic leading to a vote on me.

Quite frankly, if I'm reading between those lines correctly - now I wanna lynch you.

There are so many other possibilities for that hammer, even from just a town perspective - why would you leap onto that conclusion as opposed to any of the more obvious ones?

Like;

1. He is scum and believes the claim.
2. He is town and doesn't believe the claim.
3. He is town/scum and, as stated, was playing survivalistic.

I'm almost starting to think it's RC/Pants and this was a botched coaching attempt.

And I'm bored of pulling up quotes but it leads to him voting me.

Anyway.

[RadiantCowbells]

Him being Thor or Grendel? And that particular interaction doesn't make me townread either of them- if anything, Grendel's responses in that interaction struck me as a bit off. It just made me think that they weren't scum together. Still, you may have a point on the distancing.

Like if you look at Thor's vote and push on me as a chainsaw

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... Version.29

then it puts his shitlogic, his random desire to lynch me, and his intentionally being an obtuse fucker into the perspective of trying to prevent me from hindering scum plans any more than I already have.

[RadiantCowbells]

Thing is Grendel's in all of my scumteam possibilities so I want to lynch him first.

[RadiantCowbells]

Pants flipping scum would make me still autolynch Grendel because Grendel/Pants is still Pants's most likely scumteam!
Grendel flipping town would basically throw out the book for me and I'd have to entirely reset.
Basically can't even come close to seeing him as town at this point.

[RadiantCowbells]

JUMP TO />_ vote_count JUMP TO />_ vote_count />_

I mean I hate to like
rain on your parade

but I'm more confident in my reads than I am in yours.

[RadiantCowbells]

I do have a case.

I like you a lot better for town now but I want to see the reactinos of the rest of the playerlist before I post my grendel case.

[RadiantCowbells]

I would prefer to wait for that as well, yeah.

But like if he's not going to produce any content I'd like to see him replaced ideally.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not 100% on Thor tbh but my current view is that he's a barrier to town winning if town and has a fairly high probability of being scum here.

I'd compromise on it.

[RadiantCowbells]

Grendel case today no matter what the activity looks like.

[RadiantCowbells]

Do you confirm or deny that you

1) Claimed a scumread on Grendel but then when pressed to lynch him you entirely backed off of it and pressured me for it.
2) Are fundamentally pushing me based on a ridiculously contradictory and confbiased case.
3) Bogging the game down with hyper rationalist crap that you

should

be fully aware doesn't account for the playstyles of anyone here?

You don't play like me and you are fully aware of that.
If you're really not able to get the self awareness necessary to realize that you're playing like an idiot right now then I will just say fuck it to Grendel and get rid of you.
Your ISO looks terrible for confscum Grendel either way. So you'd probably be my tomorrow lynch anyway unless something major happened between now and then.

At any rate, I can't risk someone that isn't scum getting lynched and us both being alive to LyLo... unless you're scum anyway and we'll play that 1v1 anyway.
So I might as well do it now as things are.

Anything to say before we get this show on the road?

[RadiantCowbells]

You're not a newbie and I have no qualms about saying exactly what I think here.

[RadiantCowbells]

That said, I don't understand why he was so certain Pants was a PR. That makes no sense to me. I was way more willing to believe newb pants hammering than PR pants. If anything, you'd think he'd be even more eager to hear a claim since it would give him a good idea about PCs role and whether or not he was telling the truth.

You're assuming he's acting as a fully rational agent.

I felt like he was in a position of being like

OMG IM PR UNDER PRESSURE WHAT DO I DO
OMG THE TOEHR GUY CLAIMS PR IS HE REAL PR IS HE CCING ME IS HE FAKE?!?!? I HAVE TO KNOW NOW
WOW HE ISNT RESPONDING HE DOESNT HAVE A CLAIM HE MUST SCUM
IF I DONT LYNCH I MIGHT GET LYNCHED AND HES PROBABLY FAKE PR

and vote.

[RadiantCowbells]

Human beings aren't logical.

Questions?

[RadiantCowbells]

I can answer 1 and 2 to the remaining town after I lynch you.

Do you want to help me lynch scum or not?

[RadiantCowbells]

I finished writing my Grendel case but it's staying put until Thor responds to the stuff that's gone on besides me.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't necessarily believe it's sincere and I could easily see it as a giant hyper postury bus.

That said, if I don't super like Thor's response I'd be happy to vote him.

[RadiantCowbells]

I might address the Thor stuff because I'm feeling like making an extra effort.

[RadiantCowbells]

Quite frankly, if I'm reading between those lines correctly - now I wanna lynch you.

PC is dead, so, no, I *really* am not reading between those lines to anything that makes sense.

Are these before or after I started pushing on Pants, Thor? Yes or no answer.
It's really not a hard question for someone as logical as Mr. Fork.

2. I disagree - please feel free to describe how it is contradictory or confbiased. I disagree with both points.

This one will be fun.

The lack of logic around RC's claimed beliefs about Pants lends support to the idea that she was either coaching or fishing - because she wasn't using any other sort of logic, and I don't think she inherently lacks all logic.

You can't understand my plays = must be either no logic or scum.

3. Oh dear gawd, am I trying to force logic into the game? How strange!

There's nothing wrong with logic.
Saying that everyone will make the optimal decisions for their alignments and pushing cases based on that, that's wrong.
In fact, I'd say it's /logical/ to say that someone who selfhammers as town (a decision you would never understand) might make other decisions you'd never understand as town!

RC is talking to me in a way that shows she's aware I'm town.
Vote holds.
Sheep please.

This came after I said that my heart wasn't in scumreading you.
Contradiction.

So you believe I will be able to 'rush' a lynch on you?

Stop tossing pretend outrage in my face.

I explicitly said 'try' because I was fully aware that you couldn't and if you tried you'd end up in exactly this position.

Contradicted by the f a c t s Mr. Fork!

If Pants is scum - RC makes sense as a scumpartner to a large degree.
If Pants is town - RC's play there seems *really* like fishing at that point, and is super skeevy.

Regardless of other flips, RC is still scum. Confbias.

How did I not consider it? I looked at her actions, noted lack of logic, assessed that town her would not lack that logic, and moved on.

I tried to put myself into Pants's position and I, as PR!Pants, could see a train of logic that would lead to his play as town.
Perhaps I confbiased in this situation, but I revised in the face of contradictory evidence. Would you?

either coaching or fishing

I was pissed off by the fact that I couldn't get a wagon on Grendel.
I asked Pants to claim because I thought they were PR so I could get everyone's asses off of them.
To call that 'fishing' is lame. It's more like grabbing that fucking fish out of the water with my bare hands.
Call it like it is Mr. Fork.


I am town. Are you capable of revising your read on me or should I just vote you now?

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: Fork

Too much.

[RadiantCowbells]

Not making jack up bud.

The single mindedness here /suggests/ that you're town but if you're in tunnel mode you need to be removed.

[RadiantCowbells]

You're assuming that I'm scum making an extremely obvious and poor play over the dramatically more likely scenario that I simply do not do things the way you do.
Considering the 'option of me being town' where it means 'look at things through the lens of how I play and I wouldn't do this -> scum' is absolutely meaningless.

Like I've said before, you're not the type of player to make an effort to understand why people do things differently than you do. You just vote things that you don't understand.
That's why you confbiased Mollie, that's why you're confbiasing me, I hope that when you get to dead thread and my alignment is revealed you rethink how you played this game.

Unless you're scum, in which case hey! You fooled me, but too bad you put yourself in a position to be lynched regardless of my read on you.

And yes, it contradicts the

evidence

, even for Mr. Logical Fork. It doesn't take a logical genius to realize that.

I'll even accept that in your mind disagreement = contradiction, but c'mon now - you're making up the whole 'defending Grendel' hogwash.
Back it up or admit you're wrong, and if you're wrong - what's up with this derp supposed complaint even existing?

You claimed Grendel as a viable lynch and you're refusing to go anywhere near it and voted the person who tried to make it a reality. That's literally the DEFINITION of a chainsaw.

Like, ooooh, how dare Thor "tunnel" on me while I state lies and then duck them. How strange that he seems focused on that.
Whaaa! He's not buying my obv. lies, must vote him (sob!) he will flip town, but, y'know, he just HAS to go (sobby-sob!)

Just can't stop lying. I'm a pathological liar after all, y'know what it's like to be a mafia player.
Quote one thing that you consider a 'lie' coming from me.

[RadiantCowbells]

Yeah, I REALLY freaked out after you voted him, never presented a case, and then unvoted him to vote the person I was voting that I unvoted then to set up my chainsaw because I knew you'd go back to voting him later.

Yeah, I think there's a decent chance you did.

You saw me call all 3 scum players in the space of 1 hour in Refraction. That is not an isolated scenario. Whatever you want to portray outwardly I don't think Scum!Thor would be too happy about me zeroing in on his townread.

[RadiantCowbells]

on his partner*

yawn.

[RadiantCowbells]

This is actually a lot like your claimed PR gak, really - you're flat out ignoring what was said and done in thread to create a reality in your own head.
But I'm a danger to town because I like facts.

No, cuz you're tunneling me and I'm town.
Yeah, I do like to work through scenarios. It's certainly a better scumhunting tool than 'I wouldn't personally do this in that situation as town, ergo scum.'
If you were willing to vote scum with me I'd be willing to unvote and try to work with you.

[RadiantCowbells]

JUMP TO />_ vote_count JUMP TO />_ vote_count />_

And like there's not even a point in doing this as either alignment.
Do you really not realize that I'm not going to be lynched tomorrow or ever if you get lynched?

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm having issues with your reads Mono.

[RadiantCowbells]

It is the Grendel part!

I'd case him but Thor has to be lynched first right now.

[RadiantCowbells]

1. How many of them did you get lynched? Fear of accurate reads is only half the equation for actually fearing someone.

I'm considerably better at that side of the equation now. As you can see, it is you getting lynched and not me here.
Furthermore, I replaced into a slot that already had 2 masons who I am fully aware are terrible scumhunters tunneling it.
This isn't a blank slate deal, this is me replacing into a heavily scumread slot in an extremely weak town and not being able to avoid being hammered in several game hours because our masons are tunneling confbiasers. Sort of like yourself when you're town.

2. I notice you flat out ducked, yet again, the issue that you're lying about the timing of my reactions.

Nope?

You acted incredulous immediately when I acted like you should jump ship to Grendel and discredited the push in its entirety by implying you were the only one scumreading him and you immediately refocused your attention on Pants at that point.

Did you first 'actually push on me' after the Pants thing came up? Yes. But I think that's, if you're scum, because you thought it would be too obvious if you immediately pushed on me and me jumping ship to Pants both gave you an excuse to press on me and made it look a lot less related to the Grendel push.

You avoided the Grendel wagon for the get go and didn't engage with me properly after claiming a scumread on me. These are facts.
Furthermore, the major reason you gave for scumreading me did, in fact, come after the point at which you had said 'bla bla reading lines will lynch you.' Facts.
So like you're wrong, and then you're wrong again. These are facts.
#logic

Your case reads like weaselly bull hookey - can you clarify any of it? Or will you ignore my question again because you're scum with RC?

Says the guy who refuses to push Grendel with me.
Silly Fork.

[RadiantCowbells]

If Thor votes Grendel based on an actual scumread, even if that scumread is 'I'm gonna help RC bus', I'll give you my Grendel case.

Otherwise I'd rather just get rid of Thor.

[RadiantCowbells]

1. I was the only one scumreading him - if not, please name who else was doing so - I'll wait.
2. Even if I did refocus on Pants - that isn't a chainsaw on you, now is it?
3. Is it?

Does Micc count?
Besides, it's not as if reads are static and unchangable.
(for people besides you)

So I hid my chainsaw by appearing to not attack you over Grendel, but even though there's no evidence of me having an issue with your push on Grendel I'm chainsawing you over him due to the lack of evidence because I'm hiding my motivations.

Do I have that correct?

No, there's evidence that upon my decision to push Grendel you didn't engage it and continued to try to snowball a Pants wagon.
That /suggests/ that you may be scumpartners and the bigger picture suggests that the entire stunt may have escalated as a chainsaw.

How did I not engage you after calling you scummy?
This is a lie - straight up.

You're engaging me now, yes.
You did not engage with me in the period that I'm referring to, nor did you engage me about my desire for a Grendel wagon!
You sidetracked it and said you wanted to get a Pants lynch done.

Incredulity does not a case make.
How is it scummy?

Have you noticed that no one in this game needed to make a case on you to get you to L-1?
I just want you to sit and think about that for a while.
You might come back and say 'BUT THE PLAYERS ARE WRONG', but that's how things always are, so adapt!

[RadiantCowbells]

I would prefer to wait for that as well, yeah.

But like if he's not going to produce any content I'd like to see him replaced ideally.

I'm working on those reads you asked for. They should be up today, but if not they will definitely be tomorrow.

[RadiantCowbells]

Thor, last chance.

Do you want to lynch someone besides you?

[RadiantCowbells]

*shrug.

[RadiantCowbells]

Fork couldn't get over his tunnel

[RadiantCowbells]

It was a bad wagon, no one's disagreeing, but that's not

my

fault.
You put me in a position where my choices were to risk bringing you to LyLo with a deathtunnel on me or to lynch you.
I couldn't even get your vote onto someone who might actually be scum so we can forestall LyLo.

I mean...?

[RadiantCowbells]

Let's just call this a learning experience for both of us and move on from it.
I never said you were scum though! I just said I was afraid to bring you to LyLo and have you speedvote me.
My case wasn't a lie either.



Thor, what I want you to do is ask for spoilers and then just rethink how you read me.
okay?

[RadiantCowbells]

My point was that I HAD a case, I HAD reasons to scumread you.
I came around that they were wrong because you reacted town.
I wouldn't have been trying to get us both onto the same wagon if I was still scumreading you.

There's no point in us having this argument.

[RadiantCowbells]

Weird ass NK.

[RadiantCowbells]

My one question:

If it's really Grendel/Thor like I've been pushing for days why wasn't I nightkilled?

[RadiantCowbells]

Or maybe it's the opposite: I had softclaimed VT with my pants shenanigans and scum wanted to try to hit PR.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm good to quicklynch Grendel tbh.

Grendel, claim pls.

[RadiantCowbells]

UNVOTE:

Powrelynching him unless he claims PR.

[RadiantCowbells]

Grendel is one of our next two lynches and he might as well be our next.

I don't feel like arguing with you about it at this time.

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: Grendel

[RadiantCowbells]

Grendel is getting lynched.

I don't care how long it takes my vote isn't changing.

[RadiantCowbells]

I only voted Thor because he was the second most likely person to be your partner.

[RadiantCowbells]

I have no plans of doing any rereading while you're alive.

[RadiantCowbells]

look.
Grendel lynch is the correct play because they have hardclaimed VT among other reasons.
Don't force other people to claim. just lynch Grendel.

[RadiantCowbells]

look.
Grendel lynch is the correct play because they have hardclaimed VT among other reasons.
Don't force other people to claim. just lynch Grendel.

[RadiantCowbells]

like think of it this way.

if we lynch someone who ISN'T grendel I will instavote Grendel in LyLo.
That means that either scum is Grendel, who will be forced to attempt to night kill me, or someone else, who autowins in LyLo by not killing us at all.
Scum won't WIFOM around this because I'm fairly sure my play yesterday will make them take that assertion very seriously.
So if I do in fact get nightkilled Grendel will be autolynched for it since he's the only person who would make that target.

So. Grendel is getting lynched one way or the other. He kills me overnight- you lynch him. He doesn't- I speedvote him tomorrow.
So only 1 lynch in the [not Grendel] pool is happening. Even if you think Grendel is town, which I don't understand, why don't you make it TOMORROW.
When it's already been whittled down from the nightkill.

And better still, if we lynch Grendel we have 0 chance of outing the PR, which means that if scum NK a VT, we've got at least 50/50 odds tomorrow.

It's simple. we lynch the Grendel.

[RadiantCowbells]

I have no specific intentions of a tomorrow lynch.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not trying to coax you 'cause I think you're scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

JUMP TO />_ vote_count />_

I don't need to.

I just need to convince them it's the optimal play regardless of your alignment; which it is.

Especially considering you tried to get me to lynch you instead of Thor yesterday which is WTF?

[RadiantCowbells]

@Grendel - you ducked explaining how I was chainsawing you. I'll ask again - can you describe how I was chainsawing for you? Because I wasn't, and that two people are using that case while neither is explaining it does not hang well with me.

Also, can you explain how I wasn't forthright in calling you scummy? I pretty much opened the day saying "I find Grendel scummy because of Micc's reads" how could I have been more "forthright" exactly?

Thor, you’ve been saying I’m scummy for a while now, but aren’t voting me. You’ve certainly inferred that you thought I was scum, but for the most part you’ve just said “x thing is something scum would do”, or “I think that was scummy” but you never openly went full circle and said, “So i think Grendel is scum, and we should lynch him tomorrow”. The closested you got to that was saying you wouldn’t be opposed to a Grendel lynch. The whole thing feels like you would like to see me lynched, but don’t actually want to dirty your hands to do it. That's why I don't think you've been really forthright.

There were multiple times in your discussion with RC where RC said to lynch Grendel. Not necessarily at you, some was to others in the game, you still could have addressed that further though. Instead you were talking about Pants, then after voting RC you talked RC’s scum playing ability, and kept focusing your energies on him even when it wasn’t getting anything done, when RC just wanted to talk about me. The overarching theme of discussion between you two was that RC wanted you to vote me. So while he tried talking you out of a Pants lynch, you both know that the discussion would come back to me. You also knew that RC’s ultimate goal was to lynch me today. So you could afford to go after RC in a manner that would be interpreted as an attempt to move discussion away from me, and make it about RC, because that’d only make RC want to lynch me more. When i flip town however, your actions wouldn’t seem scummy b/c you were directing talk away from town to your new suspect RC who just got a townie lynched.

What I’m saying is the while Pants is who you were both talking about at the time- the underlying point would come back to me. Like the RC defending Pants is a subplot in a chapter about RC leading a lynch on me. So the fact that you started going after RC during the Pant’s subplot doesn’t mean you weren’t aware of the directions things were taking. Eventually it has to come back to me, and it’d be good for you to look like you were against RC who will be the one leading my lynch. It’s not like RC has been obscure about his platform. Now though, since RC is calling you out, and willing to lynch you. Even if it’s for something as vapid as play style. You’re trying to discredit others observations of your activities. Which i suppose is part of the game, there would be much going on without debates. However, I don’t get why disagreeing with you makes me scummy though. It seems the "hypothetical" plan i’m referring to is giving way. Given that its beginning to look like I'm not getting chopped today.

Your case reads like weaselly bull hookey - can you clarify any of it? Or will you ignore my question again because you're scum with RC?

Then lynch me, because you’re going to have a harder time getting RC out of the picture then you will me. Also it appears that's the only way RC will reveal his case on me, and I'm becoming increasingly interested in this smoking gun that'll apparently get me insta-lynched.

[RadiantCowbells]

Fuck it.

I'll reread this: but don't expect my vote to change.

[RadiantCowbells]

I am not voting Monogarden today.

we lynch grendel today. it's the correct play.

[RadiantCowbells]

fuck you all.

I told you what to do days ago and you didn't.

Pants, vote Grendel.

[RadiantCowbells]

Still think Grendel is town to some extent.

idgaf what your opinion is.

[RadiantCowbells]

Why do you feel I'm the only option Pants?

Well my original thought was that you were the best option because RC wanted you dead. Now that I think about it I'm going to go with who I've had a gut scum read on since D1:

VOTE: Orange

I'll post an ISO of him soon.

remember when I told you how to play today?

remember when you didn't and bad shit happened aka pr being outed?

time to do start doing what I told you.

[RadiantCowbells]

the less [quote unquote] discussion [quote unquote] that happens for town today the better.

you know who to vote.

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean at this point there's no longer a particular hurry to rush the wagon since you dolts outed the PR.

I believe you hope to lynch town today and then nightkill me and not have to deal with me in 3 way.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not saying that I can't see Orange being scum but I want grendel.

[RadiantCowbells]

FTR:

Mono never made sense as a Thor partner. ever. I didn't want to defend her because I suspected she was PR and I wanted scum to not NK her.
Lynch order for Thor partners is Grendel -> Orange for me here.

If you want to persuade me to vote Orange first then throw some reasoning at me.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't believe that
Thor is the type of player to have bussed Pants in the way he has done so here.

so to me it's definitely Grendel + Orange for the win.

On reread I can sort of see where the townreads for Grendel are coming from but I'm not entirely sure I agree with them.

That said, Orange does l ook bad.

[RadiantCowbells]

This is sorta awkward if Orange is in fact scum because it means that I was a major leader in two scum lynches in a game where my reads were 100% wrong for most of it up to the first flip.

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: Orange

you only live once.

[RadiantCowbells]

We did it!

I mean mostly other people did it. I was awful this game.

[RadiantCowbells]

I thought Thor's post-hammer reaction was town so I complained to the mod about how ridiculous this game was and how I wished I never replaced into it.

On top of that, I was pretty unstoppably deathtunneled on town, had scum in my top townreads, and the main reason I lynched the scum I did was more because of misplaced associatives and because I was getting super pissed and sick of their terrible play than legitimate scumreads.

At least I figured things out today. It was pretty easy to solve on reread.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm sorry Grendel.

can you ever forgive me?

[RadiantCowbells]

And yeah.

Sorry for criticizing your play like I did, obviously, since you were scum.

If you were town I'd have meant literally every word of it though.

[RadiantCowbells]

No, that post was directed at Thor.

I don't think I criticized your playstyle besides saying that I thought you were waffley scum but I may be wrong.

[RadiantCowbells]

and yeah. sorry for scumreading you.

way to go on pulling through and not scumreading me in return for it.

I can respect that.

[RadiantCowbells]

May I guess that Mono was the doctor?

[RadiantCowbells]

Yeah =\

Mono read as super PR to me for most of the game.