Newbie 1707 - Game Over

[RedCoyote]

Wow, sorry, guys. Got hit with downtime just as I was getting ready to get on and post. Welcome, all. I'm the IC in this game. If you have any questions about the site or this game (and

only

this game, the cardinal rule of this site is to not talk about other ongoing games that are happening in any other thread whether you are in the game or not), feel free to ask me. Please don't PM me until/unless this game is over. If you want to ask something privately, you should reach out to the Mod of this game (Jackal711). If you want to go above Jackal for whatever reason, the next person is the Newbie List Mod (Mina) and then, finally, an administrator (zoraster, mith or Kison).

With that out of the way, I look forward to reading over the posts made so far this game and catching up.

[RedCoyote]

I fear that half the newbies are going to have to be replaced after the crash :/

Pr-edit:
You literally posted that just before I made this, lol.

Also all over you not placing a random vote down any reason for doing so?

So far I've really got no information besides possibly Seth's post which seemed a bit forced, however some people just post like that. Also, I await the accusations of me throwing shade at Seth because he voted me

I'm not a big fan of these two posts together. wgeurts is somewhat critical of Seth's first post being forced, but I find his humor similarly forced in 14.

But really what I want to ask wgerts is about this comment, "all over you not placing a random vote down any reason for doing so?" To whom are you referring?

---

Almost didn't post it for fear it'd be suspicious but didn't want to be silent.

Generally, it's a good rule of thumb to post a lot as town. I think, even if it's just on a subconsious level, people are more inclined to support those that are active and posting more. When you don't post as much, you tend to be perceived as though you're flying under the radar or biding your time, rightly or wrongly.

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On the other hand though seth's post

does

feel quite forced, do you not feel so?

I don't understand why you felt the need to emphasize the word "does". This reads as though your question is purposefully leading.

---

Getting town vibes off Simoyd based on 24 and 31. Good questions and confident responses.

---

Are you asking why I am not voting Kal ?


I'd rather the conversation be less confrontational, which I believe a vote would provoke, and more voluntary at this point 2 pages in.

I don't find one vote to be particularly "confrontational", as it's generally understood among players that that's the name of the game, but I don't find this scummy either.

I do like your avatar though. What game is that from?

Confession is good for the soul. If there is something you want to tell us, now would be the time.

Heh.

Yet you've suggested that each participant weigh in with an opinion sans guert and, more importantly, me.

This comes across as unnecessarily defensive. If you want to give your opinion, give it. To me it was clear the Simoyd was just making a blanket, "we need more people to chime in" statement. There's no reason to make something out of nothing, in other words.

In any event, I'm certainly not afraid to be confrontational. VOTE: Murph

[RedCoyote]

I don't think it's necessary to qualify every comment/vote with "keep in mind, this is early" "this is a weak read" "I'm not too sure about this" etc, etc. I think it undercuts the purpose of the vote. Was your question about my Murph vote rhetorical?

[RedCoyote]

Online and catching up!

[RedCoyote]

Anyone else around?

[RedCoyote]

Kal, why do you keep badgering us about your insecurities? Just post. I don't need to read this same self-pitiful post multiple times.

[RedCoyote]

Sim/Ras, what player could we conceivably vote together?

I'm still reading over the last four pages, but if y'all don't have anything else going on I'll chat actively, too.

[RedCoyote]

I wonder if Alpaca might make a good D1 lynch.

[RedCoyote]

I don't know what SonS means, I'm afraid. I was hoping some live back-and-forth may be a refreshing change of pace for the game, but perhaps not. I'd rather have discussed why Alpaca was or wasn't a good lynch. Would your reaction have been different had a suggested another player, Ras?

[RedCoyote]

As I read his posts initially, I did get a sense of someone that was posting for it's own sake, but I'm starting to come around to him on the back of his more recent posts.

[RedCoyote]

Well, this is embarrassing, I think I jumped to conclusions a bit.

What do you mean?

@RC
You disliked some of ygeuerts posts (which I disagree with), but do you actually fos/sus him on these?
What do you think about Kali?

Yes, I do.
I don't have much of an opinion on him. Instinct tells me he is town, but nothing substantial to back that up.

Additionally, I get town vibes off of you. Though I don't have much else to contribute, your 77 - 82 is genuine and I think I can see thoughtfulness in these posts that come from a town mindset.

---

@RedCoyote 70
I'm afraid that was a typo made on my phone's autocorrect, I meant all "off" you not all "over". That should clarify that a bit at least.

That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

---

Not even defensive. I was questioning his motive. Sim stated that my statements could be interpreted in different ways.

Okay, that's fine, but why did you phrase it in that way? You seemed to go the long way around to make this point, you know? Almost like you were sneaking it in? Does that make sense?

Like, I think I would've appreciated your stance more had you presented it to everyone as an example of Sim being purposefully obstructive rather than just whined at him about it.

---

I am extremely non committal right now since I I personally think that everything said so far could be taken either way, now the nest step is to cross check what people say in the future with suspicions I already hold for them.

I was okay with your post until this paragraph.

Ugh.

I'm willing to cut you some slack, and I realize this may be the proper, politically correct statment to make, but it strikes me as all sorts of fake whenever I hear it. It's like you're writing stuff like this just because you have to. And when I think people write stuff out of obligation, I think people are coming from a scum perspective.

---

As the IC, I find it difficult to understand Red ignoring an entire conversation and then cherry picking a single statement to squat on.

Being an IC has nothing to do with my alignment (as I'm sure you know), nor my skill at the actual game insofar as how it may or may not meet your expectations (as you may know but may not be appreciating in this situation).

Anyway, I like this post.

---

I'm thinking that a scum ic would be trying to take charge more.

Good thinking!

---

Just wondering why would you vote someone without intent to lynch, I mean you have said that you think that he is the most scummy out of everyone and than you voted him because he doesn't have a vote yet but you don't have any intent to lynch him? Shouldn't voting for people be reserved for actually wanting to lynch them. Like its open to change the vote later but why vote without intent.

This strikes me as a town mindset. I guess because I think I would wonder the same thing as town.

[RedCoyote]

UNVOTE: Murph; VOTE: Hoppic

[RedCoyote]

I get a strong sense that Hoppic is overly relying on the newbie card today (see: 111, 124). This is a much better place for my vote currently. I do not think Murph responded to his wagon in a way with which scum may have.

[RedCoyote]

As I read his posts initially, I did get a sense of someone that was posting for it's own sake, but I'm starting to come around to him on the back of his more recent posts.

EBWOP: for its own sake

[RedCoyote]

By post number yes, but if you're looking at content and context(kali mostly talked about an RVS thing) you can analyse way more from redcoyote this game than kaladin.

This = town, especially given the fact that you're currently voting me. I really like this comment.

How can you actually just suggest a lynch like that without having read the past few days? It's not even that you don't have reasons, but you theoretically couldn't have because you haven't read.

Without delving too much into it, my post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Do you have an alternative name were you not as steadfastly appalled to the idea of sharing a wagon with me on page 8? Further, do you see any town rationale behind grouping players together in the way with which I'm attempt to do?

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: I'm attempting to do

[RedCoyote]

I read both you and Ras as very town at this point, far more than any of the other players in this game. I'm grouping us together with the hopes that we can work as a bloc, more or less, in lynching someone today.

[RedCoyote]

Let me just say Mastin is not the be-all-end-all authority on Mafia.

[RedCoyote]

That's in response to Sim's comment.

[RedCoyote]

Ras, I think you're overthinking this one here and trying to associate my wanting to exchange and have live discussion with you negatively.

I wouldn't necessarily say I'm "eager" to trust you as much as I'm confident enough in my read of you to be willing to verbalize it. I arrive at that confidence through experience with the game.

[RedCoyote]

However, as I'm making these posts and reading the skepticism, I'm realizing this may not be the best approach to take in a game such as this one.

[RedCoyote]

Would probably be my second pick for scum at this point.

[RedCoyote]

@RedCoyote: So do you believe Seth's "slayer's gambit" explanation? How is that less newby than 111? Why chose Hoppic over Seth?

Why not? I think I'm willing to hear more from Seth than I am from Hoppic, but I wouldn't be opposed to either lynch.

---

@redcoyote
Okay. I'll reserve some judgement but I'm not doing this townbloc and I'm definitely not willing to compromise on a lynch halfway into the day with you of all people, I do strong townread sim though.
Questions: how does wgeurts big post (133) play into your read on him?
From what I gather, your scumreads atm are hoppic, seth, and wgeurts?

I'd say that's about fair. I wouldn't put it by scumwgeurts to make a post like that. Verbosity is one of his strong suits. Further, it's not very difficult to lay it on thick with walls if you think that's a good "in" as scum with the players you're opposing. I've done it numerous times.

---

This is awkward phrasing. He would think the same thing as town, if he was town... rather than that he did think the same.

Seems like a scum slip to me.

In what universe is this a scum slip? I was explaining why I considered that post to be town sounding. Had I not included that comment, I suspect you would've attacked me for being "too vague" and "not backing up my reasons", yeah?

Easy way to slip in a reactionary, WIFOM vote.

Buddying, rushing the lynch on day one... yeah. He's by far my strongest scum read.

Nice way to frame it. I've found townreads and I've explained why I have those townreads. If the town is able to reach consensus among a player or two or three vis-a-vis reading each other town, we're far more likely to succeed going forward.

As a senior player in a newbie game, especially a game with posts such as Kal's 57, I see it as my duty to take a leading role in being transparent with my reads and being proactive in forming strong relationships between townies if at all possible. Otherwise, I think the town may succumb to too much paranoia and reluctance and allow the scum to pick away at the town one by one.

In other words, some players don't have the stomach for putting themselves out there to be criticized and attacked. You put someone like Kal in that position, he may fold and start this self-fulfilling cycle of defending himself and grasping at any opportunity to get away from the spotlight. Now, I don't know if Kal is town or not, but I do know that I am. I don't care if Kas spurs my advances or you try and WIFOM me. I've played this game thousands of times and have enough self-confidence to push through that.

Anyway, long way of saying I find these posts opportunistic, short-sighted, self-centered and, therefore, scummy.

Nothing Seth has said has made any sense to me and he seems really anti-town. I think he's probably scum, but redcoyote is a stronger read right now.

If my read of Sim is right, he won't let Hoppic say something like this after he attacked me for "ignoring" Seth. Not that he was wrong to make this attack, but I just hope he's consistent if he's already so confident in his scumSeth read that he's looking for potential partnerships.

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I didn't expect RedCoyote to act like this, it's as if he's playing and toying with us

Well, first off, it's pretty forward to characterize my play as "toying" without citing specific examples. There's a negative connotation there that deserves to be quantified. Secondly, and maybe I should've said this at the outset, I don't play an IC role like some... high horse, "this is what you should do" presence in the game. I'm an actual player in this game with an actual role. My thinking is that I treat this game like any other game. I treat new players no different than I would veterans. The only real teacher in Mafia is experience.

That said, if someone does have a game or site-specific question, I am happy to answer them. I'm still a player in this game though and I am still trying to win the game for the town.

---

I don't want to make that claim now, though an RC flip may end this game day 2.

Sim may not know any better than to this, but you ought to know better than this.

I'll explain in more detail why his experiment is pure nonsense:

You are all full of boredom, accusing clearly innocent people without further ado.
Don't be fooled by wgeurts, he's a captivating charmer that in reality, he's ISIS in disguise, adults who still believe in religion because they didn't grow up.
VOTE: wgeurts

Read this.

Now it looks like any other RVS vote right?

Later he claims it's got some hidden pro-town intent, which even later changes to an experiment which can only be explained in the future. Why an experiment would have to be secret (also if it is secret why so willingly explain it later?) is beyond me. The experiment is apparently to see how people react to a double vote in RVS. Well.

Firstly a double vote has no significance, secondly only one person mentioned it, thirdly he doesn't have the sample size to be able to draw any conclusions. One player's reaction isn't enough. Further more he hasn't stated how he's taking into account the alignment of who he's voting in comparison to those reacting. If he were truly doing an experiment he would know of all this. He may be new, however he claims to be 26 and should therefore know all this. Which apparently he doesn't.

Wow, talk about grasping at straws. At the risk of looking as though I'm defending Seth (this die has already been cast by Sim and wgeurts, so there's no sense in trying to ignore it), reaction tests are not unique nor are they particularly scummy on their face. If you're really going to take that position, then you ought to explain how Seth is benefiting from this maneuver as scum.

It's quite possible that Seth felt cornered as town or scum from a possible group of people latching onto his wagon as one that was easy to join early on. I don't think you can draw the conclusions that this is necessarily a scum tactic. Further, what does his age have to do with anything? That's a logical fallacy. And why are you skeptical of his age anyway?

[RedCoyote]

Now that I've read up on the last couple of pages, Seth is no longer my pick for follow up scum. Like others, I lazily threw him in my scummy pile without really taking the time to think it over.

[RedCoyote]

Clearly I think Hoppic is the most likely candidate for scum. Will you join me in voting him?

[RedCoyote]

I'm here. I think the town would be remiss to lynch me on D1 for a number of reasons, most of all being that I'm willing to be controversial and it's easy to jump onto my wagon without putting much independent thought into why it is you're lynching me (see: Ras, Murph, Kal).

[RedCoyote]

Does anyone happen to be online right now?

[RedCoyote]

This is awkward phrasing. He would think the same thing as town, if he was town... rather than that he did think the same.

Seems like a scum slip to me.

In what universe is this a scum slip? I was explaining why I considered that post to be town sounding.

You said,

"This strikes me as a town mindset. I guess because I think I would wonder the same thing as town."

You

think

you would wonder the same thing as town? It sounds as if you are just guessing what you would think if you were town, which means you're not town.

I love this comment, because anyone with a town mindset (read: not you and possibly not Sim/Kal either) would've taken this knee-jerk reaction more critically.

If I were in Alpaca's shoes with a town alignment, I think I would've thought similarly to how he thought at that specific time. What part abotu that is hard to understand? I contend that that comment isn't hard to understand, and, instead, you deliberately tried to frame it in such a way to make others buy into the idea that there was a nefarious motive behind my relating to Alpaca. So, my attempt at trying to relate to Alpaca as a potential town-on-town discussion scared you, so you tried to put myself and Alpaca in a negative light at the outset.

Easy way to slip in a reactionary, WIFOM vote.

I know that WIFOM stands for wine in front of me, but what are you referring to here?

I'm referring to the fact that because I shined the spotlight on you, you immediately voted me and started your attack on me. I contend that that wasn't a coincidence. I think you are not interested in thoughtfully analyzing why I may vote you (as opposed to someone like Murph), and instead decided to take it as an opportunity to fire upon me.

[RedCoyote]

Naturally, I'm clouded by the bias of the votes, but I am confident there's a strong contingent of scum on my wagon. At least one, but possibly both. I think this because of Ras' reaction to my wagon (which tells me I'm not totally playing scummily this game) and because I think the scum are apt to get rid of an IC early on in the game if they think they can swing it.

[RedCoyote]

So, Sim, do you want to talk about anything one-on-one? Did you want to try and convince me to join your on Seth? Were there any posts you wanted to point me toward?

[RedCoyote]

If I were in Alpaca's shoes with a town alignment

I guess this explanation is okay...

Frankly, I don't see how you could read it in any other way unless you were intending to try and sway a quick, foolhardy lynch. I'm disappointed that you'd give Hoppic so much credit as to apply his obvious framework on me without having the independent sense to question either him or myself first.

[RedCoyote]

Red is culling two from the heard by enticing them with a security bloc.

Clearly something frightens you about Sim and Ras working together. What would that be?

---

I'm starting to think seth may be town, bad town, but still town, but RedCoyote is scummy. I'd vote him but are unsure what the totals are, don't really have time to put a full list of my opinions.

I'll keep this in mind for later. This strikes me as very scummy that you cannot be bothered to vote someone you suspect as scum because you are worried that it will make you look bad.

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RC, I'm claiming seths thing isn't a bloody reaction test at all.

I know. You contend that his vote wasn't a reaction test, that his idea at a reaction test was conjured up because people were voting him, right?

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I'll VOTE: RedCoyote

How fortunate that you were able to "put a full list of your opinions" in those 3 hours since your post 285... oh, wait, but, you didn't.... you simply quoted Alpaca and said, effectively, "I agree". :/

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My credit shouldn't matter to anyone.

It matters to me given that I've went out on an obvious limb to call you town very early on in this game, much to detriment. I stand by that determination, but I'm human. If you respond to that positive gesture with hostility, I'm going to be spurned.

[RedCoyote]

do you want to talk about anything one-on-one

Yes. a couple things maybe. I'm concerned about yogurts. I'm wondering if hoppic and him are partners. Hoppics fear of taking a stance near the start kind of seems to me like he's distancing from yogurts. What do you think about that or is there anything on your mind?

I think that's a very reasonable, very rationale partnership to consider at this time. Hoppic seems intent to focus attention on me while wgeurts seems intent to kill that same attention while not giving Hoppic any apparent negative attention for it. If I had to guess right now, I'd say that was a pretty solid guess at scum. I could very well be wrong, but we're still on D1, after all.

[RedCoyote]

I agree. Look, maybe I'm being to abrupt than you may be used to, Sim, and for that I do apologize. Not to butter you up, but I saw two very clear town players fairly early on in this game, yourself and Ras, and I thought it would be in the town's best interest for me to act on those hunches. I'm not infallible; one or both of you may be scum, but I am confident enough to reach out to both of you early on and attempt to, at the very least, steer the D1 lynch away from the three of us to one of the other players. I do not have the same confidence in any of the other reads in this game so far. That may change yet, but I'm willing to go forward with these early, strong notions I have thus far.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: more* abrupt

[RedCoyote]

The simple answer is I do not feel as threatened by Seth as I do by Hoppic, wgeurts and Kal. If, on page 14, you asked me where the scum was. I'd say it's in those three players.

[RedCoyote]

That's your prerogative. I do not know either of these players, fyi.

[RedCoyote]

wgeurts has been on this website longer than you and ought to know better than to make such early assumptions. You may not be as aware of this.

What argument do you mean for me to reconsider, Sim?

[RedCoyote]

Alright, anyone online? What's going on?

[RedCoyote]

Sorry for the delay between postings. I have work/family/etc I have to deal with that always takes precedence over MS. I'll look back over the last 5 pages or so, but anyone that wants to engages me now, feel free.

[RedCoyote]

@Coyote: What do you think about alpaca? What about murph?

Alpaca is probably town. Murph is possibly town, but I'm less sure of that.

[RedCoyote]

Hoppic seems like such a good compromise lynch for all of you that cannot agree on Seth or me. Think about it.

[RedCoyote]

Very kneejerk. I'm less convinced of his thoughtfulness than I am most of the other players in this game. I will elaborate in later posts, but I am disappointed with how hard he has came down against me. I don't mind him voting me or being suspicious of me, but I would've been much more comforted had he shown more reluctance or interest in questioning me directly.

[RedCoyote]

Let me put it another way, Sim. I vote people rather weakly, especially early in the game, to garner their reactions. I then pivot based on those reactions (see: my Murph vote). Sometimes I'm content with their reactions and I look elsewhere. Sometimes I find the need to keep the pressure up.

In any case, I don't want to lynch Murph today.

[RedCoyote]

What do you mean by this? If we lynch two town then we're in lylo, is that it?

wgeurts ought to know better than to start pairing people on D1. I mean, everyone connects people, you know, that's inevitable, but to say careless things like "if we lynch X and he flips scum the game is solved" is uncalled for, especially in a newbie game. It's comments like that that tell me that my wgeurts suspicions are unfounded. He ought to know better than to make such grand predictions so early on.

You, on the other hand, may be more ignorant to the game. I don't know you. Maybe you're not ignorant to the game and you're scum. Maybe you're town and you're just ridiculously arrogant. At present, I tend to think you're arrogant town and someone I'd like to "ignore me", for lack of a better word, and strike a compromise with me in the sense that you're willing to trust that I'm not gaming you.

I don't want to manipulate you. and I don't want you to sheep me. It's an observation and I feel you've gone past the point where I can target specific things that I think are incorrect or inconsistent. I think I've been pretty clear on things that I disagree about with you, and I think you've tried to be clear about your perspective as well. I think that other people should just review your stuff with tunnelling in mind and come up with their own opinion and contribute it.

This post is little more than buzzwords and phrases. If you have a question for me, ask it. This grandstanding does nothing for me.

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So did you wonder the same thing? Or not?

Of course. I wouldn't have said it otherwise.

I don't like the way he cut out his own original words when he quoted me. I think a townie would be more likely to keep all the words in and do his best to explain them. Later he gave an explanation of why he used the phrasing, I THINK I WOULD wonder the same thing as town. But here, in his first attempt, he doesn't explain it at all.

Because there's no reason to elongate a wall. No one really likes walls. I'm stuck with making walls because I don't log into this website every 4 hours to post. It's a significant disadvantage (as evidenced by this game, among many, many others), but I take it because I'd rather take the lazy pressure that arises from me being "absent" than I would be bothered to log into the website every 4 hours to post a new rebuttal.

In any case, this technical argument is weak and meant to prey on new players that are lacking in confidence enough to buy it (see: Kal, Sim).

You've made some quite early assumptions about who you think is town. How are your assumptions different?

All players make assumptions. What's your point? wgeurts ought to know better given his quantifiable experience on the website. That's quite a departure from the analogy you're making.

---

Also Red Coyote I literally haven't drawn scum in over 1-2 years.

This is a Gambler's Fallacy that means literally nothing except to make you look more scummy in an attempt to falsely prove your innocence.

[RedCoyote]

Policy lynch:

Seth

Why is Seth a policy lynch?

[RedCoyote]

Actually, I feel like I put my thoughts, about your play, out there coherently and concisely.
The reason I am voting you is documented in my previous post prior to my vote. It has nothing to do with you being controversial at all.

Elaborate.

And those reasons are ?

The number one reason being, of course, it's an "easy" choice. I don't post as much as most of you. It's easy to scapegoat me and call me the "big, bad IC" that's trying to "manipulate" you. Like I said, I'm controversial in the sense that I am willing to always say what I think and unwilling to taper those thoughts to coddle weak-willed townies that nervous about making waves. Other reasons? I know what I'm talking about and the scum would want to get rid of me early on if I am town (which, even with your vote bias, I think you would agree to). I say what I mean and I don't apologize for it.

That something being a clear and flagrant attempt by you to pander as you push your agenda.

Absolutely I am trying to pander to them. Given that I am confident they are both town, it's in my best interest to work together with them. I have no shame in pandering to townies if it gets them to work with me, lol. Why would you think that this is a negative thing?

[RedCoyote]

I'm pretty good with Ras/Sim/Alpaca being town and scum being in wgeurts/Hoppic/Murph. Everyone else is in the middle.

[RedCoyote]

I may have a blind spot to Seth. I just don't see anything particularly negative there. Perhaps if someone presented a formal case against him I could be persuaded.

[RedCoyote]

So did you wonder the same thing? Or not?

Of course. I wouldn't have said it otherwise.

So why did you say, "i think I would wonder the same thing" if you knew you were wondering the same thing?

Because I'm talking to other people, not myself. See, that's the difference between you and me. I don't speak like other people should believe/think the same way I do, which I find overbearingly manipulative and scummy. Perhaps you don't have a problem with it (clearly you don't since you're criticizing me for not dictating my thoughts as though I think they should be mandatory thoughts).

---

Maybe you're town and you're just ridiculously arrogant.

Is there anything specific that you think is arrogant? or just 336?

Mostly just that post, but I have to excuse you behavior in some way if I think you are town, you understand. Naturally, I would expect you to do the same thing if I said something you didn't necessarily agree with.

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Are the roles in this game assigned randomly? Is it possible for mafia to be 2 experienced players or 2 noobs, or is it always 1 experienced player and 1 noob?

It's all random.

[RedCoyote]

I talk to people that

aren't

me and

don't necessarily

think like me, yes.

[RedCoyote]

The first level? What are you talking about, Kal?

[RedCoyote]

Alright, I need to get a good post down and try and speak to some of y'all. Y'all are making a huge mistake here. Something I'm saying is threatening, I guess. I'm not intending to be threatening, I'm intending to be straight-forward with everyone. I don't believe in coddling anyone.

[RedCoyote]

I'm pretty good with Ras/Sim/Alpaca being town and scum being in wgeurts/Hoppic/Murph. Everyone else is in the middle.

Can you sum up the latter 3 reads for me? I know you've been in the details but if you could just condense them for me that would be appreciated.

I see wgeurts making an overly-aggressive push on what was ultimately a very weak attack on Seth to begin with. Something about the phrasing of his Seth's inital post. Lazily, I kind of accepted that attack early on without giving it much careful consideration, but as wgeurts has decided to turn it up a notch with little input from Seth other than, "I'm trying to gauge reactions," which, coincidentally, is a perfectly reasonable action to take for town, I've found myself disliking his attacks as phony.

Hoppic's attempt at pushing a "scumslip" is merely a ploy to stoke antagonism against me because I voted him and decided to pressure him. Notice the difference in his thinking from 107 to 227. What changed during this time period? I voted Hoppic on the back of his relying on the newbie card to gain sympathy from the other players. Since voting him, he's only gotten worse. Rather than work off the basis of his initial, gut reaction of me being town, he completely did a 180 after I voted him. I contend he did this because he sees me as a threat to be eliminated rather than someone he should have a dialogue with in order to sense my intentions for voting him and whether or not they are genuine.

As for Murph, simply put, he can fit with anyone for scum. The only other players that could be in the slot would be Kal or Seth. I do not think Seth would make a great partner with either Hoppic or wgeurts at this time. Kal probably would, but I don't have enough of a read off of Kal at this time. My gut tells me his paranoia is a town trait, however. Generally, I would say Murph's aggressiveness is more townie, but I only like aggressive if it's backed up with thoughtfulness, which I see less of from Murph at this time.

---

Red Coyote, me not having drawn scum in so long was a comment for people to take into consideration of the thought I could play a great scum game.

And? The fundamentals of the game don't/haven't changed. If you know how to be active and especially if you have the wherewithal to fashion walls like you have done, you will inevitably continue onward.

I may have a blind spot to Seth. I just don't see anything particularly negative there. Perhaps if someone presented a formal case against him I could be persuaded.

...

I've already disputed the things you've said against Seth. I've actually found them to be rather scummy (see: 321, which you never answered). That comment was moreso meant toward others that were on his wagon.

---

Now, if we were to take a vote on forcing a replacement, we could have a different discussion.

That would depend on the ruleset and the mod. At this point, I have no desire to request a replacement any of the players here.

My vote for you has nothing to do with your status on this site or how often you post. That's just a convenient crutch for you to lean on.
I quoted your posts and pointed to exactly why I believed you were scum in a concise and coherent manner. What I did find manipulative was your obvious pandering in attempt to garner support for your agenda.

You said that already. You effectively said all of this in 381 (you even used the same noun, "agenda", that you used earlier, despite the fact that I refutted it in 424). I was looking for you to back up your claim in 376, which you have clearly declined to do so.

Why do you have a "blind spot" for Seth ?

Why do you need a formal case? Seth's early actions and subsequent behavior all indicated that he was not acting in the towns best interest and then was on the verge of resigning when called out for said behavior.

Because I clearly don't see what the fuss is all about, but I'm also looking at him from a position of bias given the wagon on me and his willingness to call me town in a town that will not.

A formal case would be nice because if you cannot make an organized, well-documented one, then you're asking me to take the word of yourself, wgeurts and Hoppic. This would not make much sense for me at the time given the reads I have on you three.

---

If you're town and he knows you're going to flip town, then it makes sense to not be on the wagon. town cred. See, it seems really scummy to me that you didn't think of that.

Huh? This is such a poor argument. So you're saying that if I were scum and Seth was town, I should not vote Seth and let the wagon on me continue to build to a potential lynch? That would be the logical move for me to make a scum?

You do realize scum have to lynch town to win, right?

Why are you even considering the possibility of you being scum? It just makes it seem so conclusive that you and redcoyote are both scum. The only part that makes me nervous is that it's too obvious.

It seems to me like he's clearly trying to make a point from someone else's perspective. You should really back away from this notion that you are so good at this game that you think you can solve it on D1, Hop. Many of the players here have fallen victim to that mentality. It's going to come back to bite you virtually every time, and it certainly will if you've concluded that Seth and I are partners in this game.

---

@Coyote - You say somebody should make a formal case against Seth but Wgeurts already made one, and a pretty extensive one at that, being the biggest post I have ever seen playing mafia so I would love to hear your current thoughts on Seth (I know the wagon is dying down but I am curious what you think of Wgeurts presentation) Also I would love an updated read from you regarding Murph, Simon, and Wguerts

Once again, I was skeptical of wgeurts' case from the very premise of it. I asked him to clarify and he never did so. I'm guess he either doesn't want or doesn't think he needs my support to lynch Seth, so I asked a more open-ended, more public question to all the players that suspected him to give me something to chew over. I've yet to see anything.

I like your 496 though. It's comforting to see some critical thinking here.

I'm still a little unsteady on the "levels" psychological discussion. I'd actually like to see Kal talk about something a little less academic, I guess.

[RedCoyote]

I'm going to read over Ras' last few posts now. This wall was getting to be a little big, so I didn't want to keep going with it.

[RedCoyote]

Red/seth looked way too easy so I tried my best to think of any other scumteams but didn't really get anywhere.

Didn't mama ever teach you that if something looks good to be true, it is?

Seriously though, the answer to your dilemma is simple, Ras: Don't bother yourself trying to solve the game on D1. You will inevitably make assumptions and confirmation biases that prove to be foolish in hindsight later in the game. I am absolutely not trying to partner anyone up right now. Without any flips yet, it's an exercise in futility and frustration.

I'd say beyond what red's giving even which is funny considering we're comparing newbie to long time veteran and IC.

I'd also be very, very weary of equating activity to towniness. Now, it goes without saying that I am not active enough, and for that I should rightfully be consistently beat over the head until that improves, but that does not necessarily speak to my alignment unless you're making the case that the absence is deliberate (which you may be considering). Further, I do not get the same good vibes from Hoppic at this time. His lastest posts are a mix of fluff and repeating himself.

I agree with your Kal read, but, again, I'm at a loss how I'm the only one that doesn't really see anything wrong with Seth here. I just don't understand these negative adjectives everyone is using to describe him, like yours: ridiculous. I'd like you to elaborate on this a bit more, specifically backing up your claims that Seth is calling everyone "stupid for not understanding". If I missed this, I'll eat my words, but I don't think he's said this.

I can understand being 50-50 on seth but he seems to be townreading him

How can you possibly arrive at that conclusion after your 438? This comment is scummy, I'm afraid.

This is completely absurd considering seth's play; it suggests more than anything red hasn't looked at him at all.

On the contrary, I've looked over him pretty hard in an attempt to see what it is I'm missing. A policy lynch on a player that is active and playing the game properly? Huh? In what world does that make sense? Sim is likely mistaken what the term policy lynch even means, but it needed to be brought up nonetheless.

WHY we want those things

Go for it. Explain why you want either or both. I'm most interested in hearing why he would even qualify as a policy lynch.

His concern seems to be of technical details and improving his self image, and while he's using sensible words and logic as his medium (unlike seth) what he's actually doing reads worse to me than seth's angered responses which is at least a conceivable reaction to being wagoned.

"Improving my self-image", come now. I have nothing to prove to anyone here, first off. I find it upsetting that I would be targetted so early due to being rather bold and forward with my reads, but that has nothing to do with improving my image at all. More like, I'm trying to explain to the players in this game that I find it necessary to exhibit both humility and self-confidence in an attempt to rally the town and prevent attitudes of either paranoia (in the case of a potential townKal) or arrogance (in the case of a potential townwgeurts, townKas, townSim or townHop) from losing the game for the town.

---

2) Both you and Red have claimed to come in and set traps with little or no explanations nor reasoning beyond why you both cannot be scum. And what has that netted us so far ?

And what traps am I to have set, Murph? Further, unlike Seth, I'm not even bothering to go into detail why I cannot be scum with Seth. I find that argument rather dull as it will be proven wrong soon enough should the town continue down this path.

---

Thinking about it, this may be RedCoyote's last game, no one wants to burden themselves and play with such the likes of you.

I don't know how you came up with this, but it creeps me out a bit how prescient this post could be.

---

Seth are you strong townreading red entirely on him not voting for you?

It seems to me that his conclusions are more derived from the fact that we don't make sense as scum together given my actions. Anyone that had the thoughtfulness in this game to back away from that short-sighted prediction would be able to appricate such an argument, I would think.

---

For the record:
Red's "trap" for reactions 421
In any case, I don't want to lynch Murph today.

I wouldn't consider that a trap. I'd consider that an opinion.

[RedCoyote]

I can not comprehend someone looking at seth's posts here and thinking "hmm, seems perfectly reasonable".

Reaction testing is a common strategy.

I've got a call and must go work, but I'll check back later.

[RedCoyote]

Policy lynch:

Seth

Why is Seth a policy lynch?

Do you claim he is playing well?
Do you claim he is aiding the town?
Do you claim he isn't being a liability?

Even if you're not scum-reading him because of "too-scummy-to-be-scum" or whatever you cannot answer yes to the above right now.

It doesn't matter whether or not I think he's playing well. That has no bearing on his alignment.
I absolutely think he's aiding the town by being active, giving reads, and explaining why he has those reads.
By "liability" are you referring to his claim? In that sense, the argument can be made, but it's clear that no one voting him has been particularly motivated by that as a rationale for voting him.

Frankly, the more antagonism I read in regards to Seth, the more convinced I am that this is wagon is largely driven by emotion and personality. It's certainly not something I want to be a part of.

[RedCoyote]

I didn't decline. I pointed out that I had already commented on it and even included the posts relevant to said comments. Yes, I feel like you did have an agenda. You cannot refute my opinion without also accepting that it didn't change my opinion. 2 way street.

Decline is apt given that I asked you to produce something, you acknowledged that request yet you failed to do so. Show me the post where you "included the posts relevant", because this is exactly what I asked you to do.

The rest of us are wrong in thinking/saying Seth's play thus far has been anything but anti-town ?

Yes, that is correct. Someone having a different playstyle /= being anti-town. I've seen Seth do stuff I wouldn't do as town, but nothing he's done has objectively harmed the town. A self-vote is anti-town. Spamming the thread is anti-town. Prodigious lurking is anti-town. Uncivil and/or classless behavior can be anti-town. Excessive fluff can be anti-town.

This isn't an all-inclusive list, but do you see my point? You can't just call someone you disagree with or you think is scummy "anti-town". Someone that should be "policy lynched". These terms are being thrown around much too loosely.

Okay, take off your blinders and look at what we've said :knowing: it comes from townies. Does it change anything for you ?

Pardon? Which players are you saying you "know" are townies?

[RedCoyote]

Figures it would be Hoppic. Well, we'll get at it again tomorrow.

[RedCoyote]

wgeurts' rush to call myself and Murph town (especially Murph, which seems rather random given how hard he was pushing Seth, their early interactions notwithstanding) after zero input from us starting today gives me very bad vibes. There's something very calculated about posts 629 - 635. Like, I can totally picture wgeurts in a scum tread overnight saying something like, "Okay, I'm going to come out and say, 'Wow, I was really wrong on Seth, let me reread...' and then pivot toward Hoppic". I mean, wgeurts just says he reread the entire game. Granted, Seth flipped town, but what else caused him to do an about face? I'd like to have seen him point to rationale for wanting to start a Hoppic wagon off the bat.

I do really want to hear from KS. Ras is still my top town read, but Alpaca will probably have to fill Sim's slot. I'm not quite as confident on Alpaca as I was on Sim, but I still have a solid townread on him.

[RedCoyote]

FYI, here is the final vote tally of D1:

Unofficial Final Day 1 Votes

SethYazura (5) - Simoyd, wgeurts, AlpacaAlpaca, Raskolnikov, Hoppic
RedCoyote (2) - Murph, KaladinStormblessed
Hoppic (1) - RedCoyote
wgeurts (1) - SethYazura

Frankly, wgeurts coming out immediately against Hoppic tells me it's more likely than not that they aren't scum together. Given Sim's flip, I would say it's exceedingly likely you have one scum in {wgeurts, Alpaca, Ras, Hoppic}. Really, if wgeurts was town and he thought that both myself and Murph were very town, you'd think he'd be wanting to pressure KS right off the bat. Unless he thinks that both scum were on the Seth lynch yesterday.

Anyway, food for thought. I don't want to vote just yet because I really, really need more from KS. All this game I've had a weak town read on him, but there comes a point when you have to get a player to contribute to see if those feelings strengthen or dissipate.

[RedCoyote]

I'm very torn on 649. I actually appreciate that KS was honest with me in being forefront about still suspecting me moreso than Murph. That's fair and I welcome it, especially in direct response to my wanting him to post more. However, that post lacks content and he still lacks overall content. So, you know, there's something that is holding me back from moving him in either direction from my current weak town read.

wgeurts made a complaint in 645 that I was "posting half the player list". Well, yes and no, because when I say that it's reasonable to conclude there's one scum in {wgeurts, Ras, Alpaca, Hoppic}, the implication is there is also likely one scum in {RC, Murph, KS}. Further, that group is one I'd be very interested in focusing on today. This is why I was not in a rush to vote for Hoppic coming into today. At this point in time, and I am of course subject to change should circumstances change, I think we should lynch between Murph and KS.

Now, it's important for me to recognize that I would be in that group. I'm willing to take that liability on because I think my D1 is strong enough on the back of my refusal to call Seth scum. This is WIFOM, yes, but it's important to consider nonetheless.

Alternatively, we could debate the likelihood of both scum riding Seth yesterday. I find that less likely due to how generally well-received his wagon was throughout most of the day. wgeurts and Alpaca both joined the Seth wagon early and rode it for the entire day. Ras, Murph, Hoppic and KS were all effectively supporters in various degrees of strength. In other words, this was not a wagon that people were "going back and forth on". Additionally, given that we know Sim is town, we know at least in his case that that wagon was very attractive to one townie. Indeed, Sim's only vote yesterday was for Seth.

tl;dr = There should be one scum on and one scum off the Seth wagon. If you accept this, we should lynch either Murph or KS today.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, dear. Ras, you are really going in the wrong direction. I had a long day, so I'll have to come back to this later.

[RedCoyote]

So basically you're on the same thought as me, seeing each other or murph as a probable scum.
as for the other group I've got more of a town read on wgeurts and rask, leaving the potential scum, in my view, in murph or RC, and hoppic or alpaca.

I swear, it's like you want me to scumread you. You're working so hard at ignoring the one negative, and it's a big negative, I have about you. Zero substance. This is so empty and devoid of any real rationale that it sucks. I don't know why you think any of these things you said in this post.

Basically, what Alpaca said in 659.

---

There's two possibilities: that redcoyote is scum or that he's town.

Hoppic with the hard-hitting analysis!

Seriously though, I like this post, but he's overthinking with his last comment:

There was me, Murphy, Kaladin and Raskolnikov on redcoyote. So strong FOS on those three IF he's town. But then Raskolnikov switched to Seth, so i guess he would be null. So it makes sense that RC wants to vote for Kaladin and Murphy right now.

The reason I wanting to narrow the lynch down today to those two is simple. I think we have a 50/50 shot there. If I can get the town to accept that I am town, which I would hope the town on the Seth wagon yesterday would be willing to, if not outright accept, at least be much more open to that point of view given the two flips we've just had, then I think it's fair to assume we have one scum between those two players and can work from there.

It seems easier than trying to find the one scum on the Seth wagon.

Of course, if you think either both scum were on or off the Seth wagon, that's an entirely different argument.

---

he had good reason to vote him

No, I dispute this. And I do not like you sticking up for wgeurts here.

In any event, what's past is past and wgeurts/Radiant need to be looked at again especially in light of the two flips we've had.

so if anyone was capable of faking town in this game it would be Wgeurts, Rask, and Coyote.

Can we not go this route? This is what I called Hoppic out for yesterday. You don't need to be playing the newb card to try and get your point across.

---

You use Seth's town flip like a shield. Somehow, you being the most vocal and seemingly absolute that Seth was town, this exempts you from scrutiny ? Now you are using the same logic you employed against the others, that took the same view, while pushing your split vote theory agenda to dos them. How does that make any sense unless you are scum trying to control the direction of the next lynch ?

I ought to use Seth as a shield given that I consistently called that wagon a poor wagon and consistently asked others to present a case that wasn't derived in personal, emotional feelings about the player. I was literally the only player here that was asking the town to take a step back and reconsider the game logically instead of getting caught up in this "policy lynch" nonsense. I even went so far as to give out concrete townreads on Ras and Sim, reads I still maintain, in order to find another candidate suitable for the three of us to work together in voting. Unfortunately, that outreach spurned both of them and still continues to chill Ras toward me.

In any event, no, I shouldn't be "exempt from scrutiny", and never said those words. Once again, Murph, you are putting words in my mouth that I suppose you'll end up backpedalling like you did earlier when you accused me of "setting traps" or some other such nonsense. In fact, I even went so far as to praise KS' honesty in stating his suspicions of me bluntly (though I am critical of the lack of substance). Further, I continue to maintain Ras is the strongest townread I have despite the fact that I remain on her scum shortlist.

If I accept this, then you are clearly in the spotlight as you were the most adamant about Seth's alignment. Something that we all debated ad nauseum D1. Yet somehow you were the only beacon of unwavering truth.

You keep throwing out this hyperbole like we weren't all part of this game a few days ago. I never once called myself a "beacon of unwavering truth", nor implied it. I only asked repeatedly for more concrete arguments against Seth. I asked what constituted a "policy lynch", given that I saw no basis for lynching him based on "policy" and explained why I thought that. No one was willing to really challenge me on any of these points except for wgeurts whom I didn't and don't particularly look at as town.

The fact that you've defended Kal's lack of posting while highlighting Kal and I as the direction you'd lead for the D2 lynch tells me that I am a threat to you even though you know I'm town aligned.

I don't know where you get this idea that I have "defended" his lack of posting. Insomuch as I have even mentioned KS, it's that I consider him a weak townread based almost solely on his supposed attitude. I've always included the caveat that I do wish for him to contribute more.

Oh, and here we go with some good old fashioned hypocrisy courtesy of Murph:

How does that make any sense unless you are scum trying to control the direction of the next lynch ?

I'm curious, Red, why you didn't push for Hop harder while Seth was being run up ?

So, in your world, when I make the case that the town should lynch among two players and fight for it, I'm "scum trying to contol the direction of the next lynch", but when I try to calmly talk down a ill-conceived Seth wagon in favor of an alternative, I should've "pushed harder".

Since you :knew: Seth was town and all ?

No, again, I didn't know anything. I suspected Seth was town given the makeup and build of the wagon, but I certainly didn't know anything. It's unfortunate you're being so accusatory of me as I've not been this big boogeyman you're attempt to make me out to be.

And now on D2, Hop isn't even on your radar ? Why is that ? Good enough for your lone vote D1 and even a slight dos in your D2 manifesto ?

As I've explained, I believe it's in the town's best interest to lynch between you and KS today. Hoppic would not be the appropriate lynch, especially given how quickly with which wgeurts threw Hoppic under the bus starting the day off.

Your whole split vote premise relies on a theory based in supposition that isn't reliant on any facts.

Here's a fact: Seth flipped town. I called that.
Here's another fact: Sim flipped town. I called that, too.
Here's a third fact for you: I'm town. So, if you're town, I suggest you help me scumhunt.

Any suggestion that his D1 play was strong is not only wrong, it's weak.

You can pout all you want and continue to try and tear me down. I don't think this scores points with anyone, and it certainly doesn't affect my self-esteem.

---

He is just a

little

more confident about his D1 play than you are. Also as I read his point he isn't completely turning around he has cordoned off 2 groups with a potential scum so he isn't backtracking just expanding. That's how I understood it at least

This is correct. I'm a little taken aback that Murph has decided to come out so strong against me today given how his attacks turned out yesterday. Indeed, his arguments are devolving into logical fallacies like appeals to popularity vis-a-vis the Seth wagon (see: 676).

---

As was oft said, the 1-off 1-on theory is faulty and red not knowing that from his experience is strange.

I would like you explain why you think it unwise we focus on the three players not voting Seth, especially given that you just voted me. In effect, that's all I'm doing here.

I'm also very turned off by the fact that you said focusing on 1-off 1-on is "faulty", but it's probably the case anyway. Like, come on, Ras. That's quite unfair of you, and I'm disappointed in that argument.

If he was using the logic just for himself it'd be okay but his approach there is trying to spread it onto us.

Ras, the point of this game is to influence others. I mean, you continually come at me for trying to argue and explain why the town or other players should do 'X'. That's the point of the game. I have Murph in one corner saying I was too laid back yesterday. I have Ras in the other corner saying I'm trying to "spread" my viewpoint onto others too much.

I do not understand where you are coming from at all. I do hope you'll reconsider how much stock you're putting into this idea that in scum/townhunting I am being scummy.

Which reminds me that red should be paranoid of me or wgeurts this game if he's town, but he strong townreads me and kind of dropped focus on wgeurts for this weird murph/kala thing.

I wouldn't be paranoid of anyone as town, Ras. That's a strange verb to use. As scum, paranoid is an appropriate verb, but not town. It would be unfortunate if you or wgeurts/Radiant were to vote me, but I'm certainly not paranoid about it.

I don't find the Murph/KS thing "weird". I see it as the town's best opportunity to hit scum today. I think I should be looked upon as town today if pride doesn't get in the way of those that were on the Seth wagon yesterday.

I still think that red defending seth felt like he knew he was town as opposed to being unsure.

I just don't see how you can get there given how earnest my appeals were for literally anyone besides wgeurts to explain the wagon to me. To try and convince me of it being a positive thing to support. I asked multiple times for this, and I got no one to take me up on this offer. In the end, I needed to conclude that the wagon was flawed, but given the momentum at the end of D1, I figured the town was going to mistakenly lynch one of us anyway.

---

It's not any logic, it's random chance and without fact or base it becomes a rabbit hole from which there is no return.

"Random chance"? It's literally the opposite of random chance. The scumteam know who one another are. They

know

if their partner is or isn't voting another player. So they have that knowledge when considering whether or not to join them or not.

Goodness, Murph, you truly are either ignorant or devious. I really hope I'm not the only one that sees this...

---

wguerts hasn't really done anything wrong

I beg to differ. wgeurts' wagon on Seth was derived in a falsehood from the start. I explained this to you specifically in 572. In addition, he was guilty of lining up lynches (e.g. 251), logical fallacies (e.g. 345), and his poor start to today (see: 642).

---

Join me, and together, we can rule this galaxy as father and son.

*exhales*

What sucks is there is a very good possibility that Radiant is scum here, giving this post another dimension.

---

How to pick out scum? I always guess wrong, which leaves me with not much to say .

I would recommend following me. I feel pretty confident in my reads right now, but I still am not sold on the scum between Murph and KS. wgeurts' start to today had a significant influence on my reads.

[RedCoyote]

Believe it or not, I was referring to the end of D1. You know, when it actually mattered. Must you be so disingenuous?

I'm reading 520, and you're effectively giving your blessing to the Seth lynch. I can also point to posts like this:

While I've tried to convince myself that no one would/could play the way you have as scum, I'm starting to think that I may just be naïve.


1 Red
2 Kal
2a Seth


Keep up the good work, [Seth,] you might just earn the top spot soon.

:thumbup:

So I would appreciate you not trying to rewrite history as though you actually were against the Seth lynch. I'll grant you that you wasted time and energy asking for his replacement mid-D1, but that's a poor attempt at splitting hairs and is completely irrelevant.

It amazes me how you call me out while you continue talk out of both sides of your mouth.

Three things:

1) You didn't dispute my allegation.
2) You didn't provide any evidence of this "talking out of the both sides of my mouth".
3) Your selected quotes have no relevance at all to your point.

You've decided that there were one on and one off. Nothing based in game play or scum hunting at all. You've then decided that to prove it we must "follow your lead" and lynch two players. At best you have a 50/50 chance at lynching a scum, with a worst case 0% chance thus leading the town down a rabbit hole from which there is no return.


You say you're town and want respect ? Scum hunt and stop acting like the rest of us are idiots. Until then you are my top scum read still

"Nothing based in game play"? A wagon composition isn't game play? People's votes aren't game play? Scum interaction with one another isn't game play?

Additionally, I did not suggest at all that we should "lynch two players". That's a complete misrepresentation, and deliberately so. I've said numerous times, and you've acknowledged numerous times, that my thought is that there's one scum off the Seth wagon and one scum off of it.

I have not implied or suggested that anyone here is an idiot. On the contrary, I've been exceedingly patient and level-headed this game, particularly due to taking account of my position as an IC. If you think my play is belittling, then you are in for quite a wake up call if you start to play games with other scummers.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, also,

2. (statistics) having a value which cannot be determined but only described probabilistically: a random variable. chosen without regard to any characteristics of the individual members of the population so that each has an equal chance of being selected: random sampling.

Again, it's not random insomuch as the scumteam know each other. Ergo, they're making their individual voting decisions with their partner's vote in mind.

So, to reiterate, a calculated decision (the scum's vote) based on quantifible evidence (their partner's vote) is exactly the opposite of random.

Random chance would be if I were to suggest we assign all players and number and roll a die to decide which player to vote.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: all players

a

number

[RedCoyote]

Okay, you're mostly way off base, but I see a point you're making now in your last post. Let's hammer out a few things:

This quote was in answer to Seth's not so polite eloquences towards me. I'm baiting him to bring the smack down that he promised.

This doesn't change the meaning of the words you used. Those were your words, Murph. No one else put that there for you. I'm showing you where you said that Seth was an acceptable lynch for you, even threatening to "move him up" to the top of your list at the end of D1. You can try and frame it as though that's "out of context" or whatever to try and save face now, but we can all clearly see that's not the case.

Don't worry about how thick my skin is. And you can stop with the superior attitude as well.

Again, I don't know where you're getting this. There is no attitude. I don't know where you're getting anything about "thick skin" from. I hadn't ever mentioned your skin before. In fact, I just went back to check over my posts to be sure, and I hadn't even used the word 'skin' in this game.

I will be blunt with you though, Murph. You're beginning to strike me as fairly sensitive, delicate even. This pattern of you lodging these invalid personal complaints as you're doing with me and as you did with Seth...

The first were you say "here we go with some good old fashioned hypocrisy courtesy of Murph:" which is a contradiction to your following starement of "You keep throwing out this hyperbole like we weren't all part of this game a few days ago"

So which is it ? You think I'm scum or are you just pissed that I've cornered you ?

I'm failing to see the contradiction. One can be hypocritical as well as hyperbolic at the same time. In fact, they're often seen together.

I've made it quite clear that I think that's a good chance that you're scum. Was I unclear about that?

Looks more like weak dos and grasping at straws to me.

What does the term "dos" mean? Is that an acronym? At first I thought it was a typo, but I've seen you use it multiple times now.

So you know Kal is scum then ? Only way this comes out 50/50.

Certainly not. I think there's a good possibility he is, however. I'm quite confident one of you two are.

---

The interaction between wgeurts and kaladin stands out to me though, because wgeurts reacts so strongly when kaladin agrees with him, post 17. The first interpretation I had was that they're scum buddies and wgeurts was trying to distance himself. Could be. It doesn't seem to read as if wgeurts is putting pressure on kaladin to see how he reacts. When you compare it to wgeurts' suspicion of Seth, which he downplays and says that there could be other explanations, his suspicion of kaladin is a lot stronger, especially as kaladin is a newbie.

Hoppic, I encourage you to juxtapose that with wgeurts' 635. I see that connection as well. This is the main reason I'm not voting Murph right now. From my POV, it would be nice if Murph was scum, but I think there's more evidence pointing to wgeurts-KS.

---

RE Murph's 745:

There is a significant difference between saying we should lynch between 'X' and 'Y' and saying we should lynch them both, Murph.

Additionally, there is a difference between ignorance and idiocy. Are you aware of this?

You have isolated two players that were voting for you D1 and now you've concocted a plan that, from my perspective, will lead the town down a rabbit hole.

I have come out pushing your inconsistencies D2 so you've resorted to bully tactics, denials and contradictions while you belittle those ( me ) that oppose your theory.

There's no "belittling" or "bullying" whatsoever, and I take offense to your accusations of such. Additionally, these players are being isolated not because they were voting me yesterday (or else why would I not have included Ras in said group?), but because they were not on the Seth wagon yesterday. I've made that very clear.

If you can manage to get me mislynched today, will you still push to lynch Kal tomorrow ?

First off, I am not voting you and have not decided whether or not to vote you at this time. Second, I cannot answer for a hypotheical like that given that there would be new information come in the very least in a alignment flip as well as potential PR information.

That said, if the greater town is more reluctant to lynch someone from off the Seth wagon, I would be agreeable to a Radiant wagon at this time.

[RedCoyote]

I'm not insisting you "use the same verbiage verbatim", I'm pointing out that you're claiming false things. I never mentioned anything about your skin or you needing a thick skin, despite the fact you claim I had. When I called you on this, you just now said it was an "implication". I don't know the inner workings of your mind. I had no idea what you were referring to. In any event, I will try to be much more careful when speaking to you. I do want it on the record that I do not find that statement belittling at all.

Calling someone ignorant is not meant to be belittling. It means that you may not be aware or fully understand something. I'm ignorant about canoeing, for example. If you were to say I was ignorant about canoeing, you'd be correct. You wouldn't be "belittling" me. Of course, if I was a canoeing expert that has been doing it for years, then you'd be incorrect to say that. I hope this clears things up.

I flat out asked you directly, what's your plan after a mislynch ?

And I answered you directly:

First off, I am not voting you and have not decided whether or not to vote you at this time. Second, I cannot answer for a hypotheical like that given that there would be new information come in the very least in a alignment flip as well as potential PR information.

That said, if the greater town is more reluctant to lynch someone from off the Seth wagon, I would be agreeable to a Radiant wagon at this time.

[RedCoyote]

I don't see how you think these word games are productive. I was clearly not, am still not, and do not intend to offend you or your intelligence. I find the assertion you made that wagons form based on "random chance" to be an ignorant statement. Ignorant as in lacking in knowledge or awareness. Ignorant as an uneducated and unsophisticated statement. It is not correct, but perhaps you aren't aware that it isn't correct. This isn't "bullying"; I'm be as matter-of-fact as I can possibly be.

Me flipping town shouldn't change a thing since you've clearly stated that one of Kal or me must be scum.

It's not that hard to share your thoughts, is it ?

It's not hard at all, but there's no sense in letting you attempt to trap me into committing to something without all the information available to me. There's a possibility that both scum were on the Seth wagon, though I find it very unlikely. However, were the town to lynch you, you flip town and we are provided with no other relevant information that would suggest we do otherwise, then, yes, I think it would be in the town's best interest to lynch KS.

[RedCoyote]

Again, votes are not random chance. Do you understand that the scum partners know each other? This isn't a "theory". If you are unaware of this, then you are definitively ignorant of that aspect of the game, and I'm explaining to you why that is. It's not "derogatory". It's not calling you an "idiot". It's not "belittling". It's not "spin". It's not "bullying". It's not any other similar adjective you wish to bring up.

Additionally, my intent is not, "to follow through on lynching both Kal and me". My intent is to lynch scum. In a certain set of circumstances, which I laid out very clearly, I do think that would be an optimal strategy. Of course my theory is based on an assumption. All town players must work on assumptions to do anything. You are assuming that I'm scum, similar to how you assumed that Seth was scum yesterday. Ras is assuming I am scum. Could these assumptions change given new information? Certainly. Until or unless that happens, we work with those assumptions to continue to gather new information.

[RedCoyote]

Is your contention that every vote on/off the Seth wagon yesterday based on WIFOM? Or do you think there was merit to the individual votes themselves?

I understand your vote. I believe you're being short-sighted and letting your pride cloud your judgment, but your rationale is sound insomuch as that's a reasonable theory. I hope others feel the same way.

[RedCoyote]

As I've alluded to, I think KS is probably the best lynch today. I feel a little blind about it because of how lurky he is, but, on the other hand, I'm becoming more and more convinced Murph is town. I don't readily see his latest string of posts as optimal scum strategy. If it is, he's doing well, I think.

KS has had ample opportunity to scumhunt properly and has neither done so nor reached out to us/the moderator with a reason why. I've not been voting for far too long, but it mainly was because I couldn't make up my mind whether I should go after KS or Murph today. KS only has 26 total posts. Far be it from me to criticize someone solely on a post count (given that often times I have very low post counts myself), but I know how to assess whether or not those few posts have enough meat to chew on or not, so to speak. His don't. In other words, you can't simply write this off as him being busy (if you are busy for month you shouldn't be playing). He came up with some stuff earlier about not wanting to be in the spotlight. Though at the time I considered that reasonable, especially for a newbie game, I am now beginning to think that was just a ploy to allow him to fly under the radar without criticism. Taking all this together, along with the strange relationship wgeurts and KS had with one another (this deserves a separate post, really, but I have spoken about this some in earlier posts), I think we're faced with lurking scum. At this point, short of a claim that may change things, I'm willing to move forward on KS.

VOTE: KaladinStormblessed

Mod

, please post VCs more frequently.

That should be the second vote on his wagon. I'll give us a current, unofficial vote count:

KaladinStormblessed (2) - AlpacaAlpaca, RedCoyote
AlpacaAlpaca (0) -
Murph (0) -
Hoppic (1) - RadiantCowbells
Raskolnikov (0) -
RadiantCowbells (0) -
RedCoyote (2) - Raskolnikov, Murph

Not Voting: Hoppic, KaladinStormblessed

[RedCoyote]

Also, Ras, did you intentionally vote me twice to make a point or was it accidental?

[RedCoyote]

Thanks, Equinox! We've been sorely missing VCs. Good luck to Jackal.

Look, Hoppic, I don't know that there's much else that can be said by me that hasn't already been said. I appreciate your opinion in the sense that I think you're being fair and thoughtful in it. I see how you arrived there. Again, like Murph, I believe you're letting pride blind you in the sense that you refuse to comprehend Seth as town. You see it, you acknowledge it, but you don't really comprehend it. For reasons I don't understand, many of the players here saw him as exceedingly anti-town. I did not. I still do not. That should be put behind us, however, and we should only realize that he flipped town and that the battle of D1, the Seth lynch, was a victory for the scum team.

My contention is that our best hope in lynching scum today would be to focus off of the Seth wagon. The makeup of the Seth wagon does not seem to me to be heavily influenced by scum given what I just mentioned. Given that there are only three choices, myself among them, I had hoped more people would be willing to open their mind to the idea that they need to take a step back and reassess what went wrong with the Seth lynch. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be the case. As much credit as I'm willing to give you for taking the time to go back and look over old posts, you, like Murph and Ras, aren't willing to reconsider the important stuff.

You mentioned that I didn't argue enough in favor of Seth yesterday. I contend that I made numerous pleas to the rest of the game begging them to explain, logically, why they supported the Seth wagon. I ultimately arrived at the conclusion, which I stated clearly before you hammered, that the wagon was based on emotion and not logic, and I could not support it. Further, I proposed what I thought at the time to be a very valid alternative, which you should be well aware of given that it was you. It's hard for me to see how you could call me out for not arguing enough when my arguments were more or less ignored altogether yesterday. I say this because no one ever did join me in voting you D1. No one ever did unvote Seth. It seems to me that any more arguing would've been futile, but a culmination of my antiestablishmentarianism (don't get to use that word everyday ) was in 572 wherein I took on Ras, Murph, wgeurts, Alpaca and you all at once. In other words, I'm not sure what else I could've done to change hearts and minds, and I think you saying that I should've tried harder is you denying the reality of that situation (which you, more than anyone else in the game, should know full well).

I see you have said you are willing to vote me. In this situation, if Radiant or KS is also willing to make that pledge, it would be standard for me to claim my role. I strongly suggest those on my wagon reconsider. It wouldn't be helpful for the town if I were to claim, much less be lynched, today.

[RedCoyote]

Is the number votes needed to lynch someone decided by half the players rounded up?

Yes.

3 players = 2 votes to lynch
4 players = 3 votes to lynch
5 players = 3 votes to lynch
6 players = 4 votes to lynch
7 players = 4 votes to lynch

etc, etc, etc

Unless you're playing a theme game with a different voting mechanic, this will be the case for all normal Mafia games on the site.

[RedCoyote]

How unfortunate Radiant is allowed to get away with such deliberate apathy. I would recommend y'all not let him or KS do the same thing tomorrow (for KS it would be the third (!) day of doing it). Hoppic, do you see Radiant's 806 as obvious of a buddy attempt as I do given that he's effectively just mimicking your D1 argument?

[RedCoyote]

It doesn't matter, Radiant. You volunteered to replace in. You were given ample time. You know better than to make a commitment if you cannot fulfill it. It's not even as though this game is particularly involved. I'd say it's about average length for the amount of players/type of game.

I'm a VT, Hoppic, but, again, y'all are making a serious error in judgment. I hope someone on my wagon has the foresight to take a step back and see that I'm being railroaded here. The town has focused on the wrong things all game.

[RedCoyote]

Originally, there was a long, drawn out focus on Seth's supposed bad play. When I asked numerous people to explain this to me, I did not receive any well organized response. wgeurts did a fair job, but when I engaged him, he stopped responding to me. Further, I never trusted that slot (wgeurts) to begin with, and I have pointed out several reasons as to why this slot should be given more critical attention than it has. Ras and Alpaca have both shown some small signs of being interested in pressuring him, but, once Radiant replaced, both players seemed to use that as an excuse to ignore the slot completely.

KS has is also now being thoroughly ignored by everyone. You've thrown suspicion toward him, Murph, but since I'm the leading wagon and presumably still your top suspect, you've probably decided you're happy either way this day goes. No one else has really cared that KS is absent, however, and that's concerning. It would be one thing if he could be pointed to with reasons for being town read, but that hasn't happened thus far.

Like D1, I fear we're falling into this laziness trap. Eventually, you reach a point when no one wants to be "that guy" to fight against the grain late in the day and make an effort to try and stop what's easiest. I think the scum team is really banking on that right now and feeding into the lethargy to get past this day, get me lynched, and force the town into LYLO for two days in a row.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: KS is also

[RedCoyote]

So you're really going to go through with it? You're really going to lynch your IC...?

Lol, jk. It's been fun, Hoppic. No hard feelings, my friend. Just, in the future, if you choose to stick around and continue with the website, remember that the easiest/safest/least-soul-searching choice is not necessarily the best one. I think deep down a part of you knows that you're taking the easy way out.

It's been fun playing with all of you guys. I really think all of you will make great scummers. I'll see y'all in post-game.

[RedCoyote]

Good job, Ras/KS/Hoppic. KS, you especially surprised me with your cunning in recongizing Murph being scum there toward the end of D3 based on how the votes went down. Further, I think both scum did a great job in keeping me fooled throughout. I can confidently state that without KS' power, I wouldn't have pinned it on Murph and Alpaca.

Thanks to Equinox for stepping in. I finally broke my losing streak.