Newbie 1724 ~ Endgame

[Impoetic]

...Wooper (WHO CAN USE ICE PUNCH, WHILE HAVING NO ARMS!)

ice bodyslam

there is seldom more than one vote (but we do have two votes on pkmsilver )

Honestly, I understand why someone would vote for them (RVS), but two is a tad bit suspicious, though it may be a coincidence.[/quote]In my first game, the IC (who was town) joined bandwagon during RVS so it WOULDN'T be pointless. As you just said, 1 vote doesn't create pressure, so joining a bandwagon makes it better. There's no incentive for mafia to try to get someone lynched during RVS when they know it is RVS unless they're severely mistaken about the length of a normal day phase, imo. (I did try to argue that before so it looked like I was scumhunting, though, as mafia.)

I think your hesitation and brushing off your reads as coincidence is far more likely to be a scumtell, if any has been dropped at all on page 1.

I wrote that before seeing page 2, but there's nothing really to say about what's here. @Lick: Maybe if it continues, but so far, there was only one post and it was, if anything, helping discussion get started earlier.

VOTE: GreenNope

[Impoetic]

Thor is already taking the lead in this game. I expected this, but didn't expect Thor to be so strong against a single person. Don't know that I like that as it can choke the content people might offer and possibly create a dynamic where no one thinks except Thor and the rest of Town doesn't know what to do so they just follow what seems easy. That said, its still really early in the game.

I think you're overstating the case here. It's Day 1 in a Newbie, so it to be expected that the IC is prominent in some way or other. What Thor is doing, independent of whether GreenNope is scum, is educating in RVS and when to vote. For what it's worth, I don't read GreenNope as scum.

@Impoetic: why is hesitation, in this instance, scummy?

Take these two quotes:

@LQ @Green @Silver

No RVS?

Meh. I honestly think it's pointless. In RVS, there is seldom more than one vote (but we do have two votes on pkmsilver ), which ruins the pressure. And the votes don't really have any motivation, and commonly don't have a desire to lynch their target.

there is seldom more than one vote (but we do have two votes on pkmsilver )

@Green

Thoughts on the Silver wagon?

Honestly, I understand why someone would vote for them (RVS), but two is a tad bit suspicious, though it may be a coincidence.

Scumhunting is taking an offensive mindset. You're trying to find scum, actively. If you find a tell you believe in, brushing it off as a coincidence makes me think you don't really care who gets lynched as long as you look like you're scumhunting. Also, his reasoning didn't seem thought-out -- look at the first post and tell me how he got from that to the other conclusion and why the concept of voting for a reason had to be explained to him -- which further supports my conclusion.

I am not aware of any towny reason not to vote over a suspicion early on in the game; it generates more conflict, which in turn means more to read off of. It's scummy to shy away from conflict imo.

I think we should ask the mod for clarification.

That literally doesn't matter except for people who wish to vote him, like me, who can't add pressure right this second.
By the time the mod shows up to answer we'll get a vote count which will also answer the question.

It seems pretty unintuitive to me for the mod to count the obvious accidental vote and then refuse to acknowledge the EBWOP as an unvote, so I really doubt it counts. It's probably not listed in the rules because it's such a random scenario.

[Impoetic]

Scumhunting is taking an offensive mindset. You're trying to find scum, actively. If you find a tell you believe in, brushing it off as a coincidence makes me think you don't really care who gets lynched as long as you look like you're scumhunting. Also, his reasoning didn't seem thought-out -- look at the first post and tell me how he got from that to the other conclusion and why the concept of voting for a reason had to be explained to him -- which further supports my conclusion.

I am not aware of any towny reason not to vote over a suspicion early on in the game; it generates more conflict, which in turn means more to read off of. It's scummy to shy away from conflict imo.

Nothing you've said here is wrong, but I'm wondering if you can't think of any other explanations for hesitancy and confusion on the first page of a Newbie game?

I have been and am still considering this possibility. The scumtells he's been accused of by me, dewy, and thor -- all of which seem reasonable to me -- could probably be explained by being a newb. It could also be explained by being a new scumplayer, and I don't think he has particularly towntold. Also, I still think a new player might not be as quick to deny their own reads as town.

[Impoetic]

In other words, it could be town, but what makes you think it's more likely or equally as likely to be so?

Sorry for the double-post.

[Impoetic]

Oh, you're right, I was presuming a sloppy read of the post thinking I had asked up not down, that makes it even weirder that he hopped in to field it.
He can move to the scum pool with Green, especially if Green flips scum.

Lol I was actually thinking Lick/Green were probably not partners due to the sincerity of #33 and the “but not enough for a vote” (superfluous specifics that wouldn’t normally read as towny/wouldn't be thought of as towny by scum making the post) but that was a weak/shallow read.

As to "denying reads," that was just my poor way of describing his line about how it "could just be coincidence."

I understand that it could well have to do with newbishness, but I'll leave him in my scumpool for now. I think if he's town-sided that'll become somewhat more evident later.

I disagree with Liquid's two scumleans though. How'd you get those,

@LiquetyQuickety

?

Predit: What about the bold bothers you in Frog?

I guess I'm null on Dewy. Maybe the "I agree" was your scumread, but I don't wanna put words in your mouth and I didn't take that impression immediately.

[Impoetic]

I played a different, faster-paced version (also text-based) on a website called Epicmafia, and played a couple forum mafia games on the forums of that website before coming here, but a lot of the mentality of the website permeated those games and people were pretty uncooperative -- nothing at all like the community here. This is my second game on this website.

[Impoetic]

Oh don't get me wrong I know I have a substantial advantage due to my experience with the java-based(?) games.

But yes, it definitely leans more on the gut reads side of things. I've read a little about how mafia is played in forum-based versions, but other than that, I still feel like a novice when it comes to actual forum mafia and in-depth reads, since the only forum mafia games I played before this were semi-dysfunctional. That's why I'm playing a second newbie game. I also think my reads are generally on the poor side, unfortunately -- even in java mafia -- so I'm hoping to get better at that by watching others here.

Anyway, you, frog, and thor are the closest to town leans I have. Parts of those reads are things I can't quite put into words. I don't find Frog's shooting posts down so far particularly scummy, although I'm aware that

can

be a scumtell.

[Impoetic]

What should have been at the end of that post: What's the benefit of voting me as your scum read over your other Scum read?

I feel more confident about you flipping scum.

You wont get much from pressure on me, either you lynch me or you don't, I don't cave, even as Scum.

I would submit that as both alignments you are playing it wrong if this is your reaction.
Town should want to lynch scum - and if you are town you know this for a fact, so a lynch of you is not a good play for town.
If you are scum it strongly benefits your team for you to make it deeper into the game even if you are just a goon, as it helps deflect town PR abilities to weaken the team and secure a town win. So, again, you should strive not to be lynched.

I think that was a "FYPOV" scenario and not Lickety asking to be lynched. I don't really SR either of you, but I feel like your tunnel-vision is a possible tactic as scum and I'd like to hear elaboration on Lickety's alleged townread on you(?).

Sorry. Really confused now.

It didn't help to be subbed into a non-newbie game just now and read 24 pages before coming back here. I probably should have thought that through more before offering to sub in.

[Impoetic]

Maybe that was just in the other game then. Or was it Frog that Lickety TR'd? I thought I remembered Lickety saying in one of his posts, "You're town, so [...]"

[Impoetic]

VOTE: Hyped

[Impoetic]

I'm hyped for season 2 of mr robot, so this guy's the guiser.

...I didn't know they had posted.

[Impoetic]

Yes, it was RVS. This isn't, though:

VOTE: Dewy

In the meantime, Thor, who do you think Lick's partner might be? Because I'm not sure I like this whole tunnel thing. I get that town can have differing mindsets, but I still think it's potential scum tactic to spend the whole of day 1 tunneling fruitlessly like that so they don't have to make opinions elsewere -- primarily due to something someone said in my first game here.

[Impoetic]

Frick. Sorry, I got this game ocnfused with the other one already. Yeah, I managed to forget that you were one of the primary people SRing GreenNope. Not counting RVS, was there a third player you voted that I've forgotten about too? u_u;

I said "tunnel" because the past few(?) pages have been primarily you two debating back and forth. That might not qualify as such, but it's what caused me to feel assured in using the word, at the time, along with getting the details of everything utterly mixed up. I'm sorry.

Somehow, despite reading all your posts, I haven't gotten the gist of your arguments.

Man, this is embarrassing. I guess I'll definitely be trying to reread some tonight. It just seems like a bunch of small thing you guys are getting on each others' cases about, from what I've seen. What do you think of Dewy? it seems like everyone but him has been considered despite his posts all being fairly low-key. I guess the GreenNope/Lick team makes sense, but more because Lickety would turn on Green as maf with GN town here than anything else.

Sorry once more. :c

[Impoetic]

@Poetic

I guess the GreenNope/Lick team makes sense, but more because Lickety would turn on Green as maf with GN town here than anything else.

I'm not sure I'm following your reasoning. Why does a GN+LQ scum team make sense?

Also, I'm a she.

Answer to 122 please.

Oh no, sorry! I have trouble remembering I can just look down below people's icons to see their gender. Dx

I don't think your posts have been furthering discussion, for the most part. Your reads are fairly agreeable and blend in, and your questions don't seem like they lead anywhere.

It seems like you're just sitting back while things happen.

[Impoetic]

We have surprisingly little info to work with at this stage of the game. We should have twice this amount of posts.

Reads:

Town
Impoetic
GreenNope
Town lean
Dewy
Null
Lis
Hyped
Null/Scum
PKM
Scum lean
frog/Thor

Scum

Town
Thor/Frog
Town Lean
LicketyQuickety
Null
Hyped/Lis/PKM
Null/Scum
GreenNope/Dewy

Scum
Impoetic

In short: my reads list is the literal antithesis of yours.

[Impoetic]

We have surprisingly little info to work with at this stage of the game. We should have twice this amount of posts.

Reads:

Town
Impoetic
GreenNope
Town lean
Dewy
Null
Lis
Hyped
Null/Scum
PKM
Scum lean
frog/Thor

Scum

Town lean
Thor/Frog
Null/Town
pkm
Null
Hyped
Lis
Scum lean
Dewy
Scum
GreenNope
LQ



In short: my reads list is the literal antithesis of yours.

ftfy

eli5????

anyway, I'm not good at rxn tests or pressure, so

unvote: Dewy

and why do you TR greennope and scum-lean Lugia?

[Impoetic]

I come back to see the first 2 posts on this page getting on my case for a joke! What is this madness?

LQ had me at the top of my readslist with GN, whom I don't TR. My point was that my readslist was opposite his, so I put myself at the bottom. I don't understand how anyone could think that a genuine scumslip/scumtell.

Also, I didn't REALLY SR Dewy. It was just a pathetic attempt at getting the discussion off Thor and Lickety, neither of whom I scumread ATM.

[Impoetic]

I was genuine at first but now I've backed off mentally. That's why I'm not voting them. And the Hyped vote was a joke, obviously.

TR Zyf tho.

[Impoetic]

I'd still like to know the details of why you reacted that way, if it's okay.

I'm really not liking how passive I'm being now.

[Impoetic]

P-edit: then do something about it!

What, you'd rather me push a lynch I don't believe in?

And although I agree that Dewy's questions haven't necessarily seemed like things that would be required for a towny pov ("No RVS from you two?? Hmmmmm..." didn't ring as actual scumhunting to me), I still have her as lean-town because of how she's not really focused on herself... I guess? I don't know. I don't remember. Something about Dewy didn't allow it to be a genuine read, for me.

...Pft, words. Anyway, I believe I was asked for my "actual" reads list. My post before was mostly accurate or close enough not to be straight-up "false," with the exception of the Impoetic line.

I need to reread the game tonight to really get a decent one, but I'll give it a shot.

Leaning town:
Zyf - You brought this up too, but I thought he entered really well. He just seems really genuine and innocent to me, which I know is a bit of a stupid piece of logic in

forum mafia

-- where everyone can take as much time to fake whatever they want -- but I like to delude myself into thinking mafia doesn't always come up with above-and-beyond lies despite this advantage. So yeah, basically gut. His PKM line was towny too. I'm not set on this yet, though. There's one more small reason that I don't want to mention just yet.

Thor - Generally taking an offensive mindset without really feeling like he's trying to get a mislynch, but I guess I should reconsider the last part when I reread after today. I haven't particularly connected with his points against LQ, but even so, I'd avidly fight a mislynch against him d1 or d2 unless something happens to change my view.

Null-towny
LicketyQuickety/Dewy. i already explained the latter to the best of my ability without rereading the iso and the former I've completely forgotten what made me TR him initially and am sorta reconsidering it now so I'll probably read his iso in a bit. These reads are weakening so I'm putting them here.

Null
Frog - Originally a townread but I'm clearly wrong on someone and you're backing off yourself as much as I am here so it's hard for me to reaffirm that you aren't the mafia.

Scum lean:
GreenNope, I guess. Backing off completely seems a little worrisome but your point of view did convince me tbh. I had considered it beforehand and started backing off, and you were the final piece of that. Nonetheless, he's the only person I don't townread, which is abnormal; you'd think players like GN would be the easiest to townread as town.

Yeah, as expected, that was horrible. ;___________;

OK, I'd really like more clarification on that "slip" as interpreted by Zyf; I don't understand how you thought it could have been such. I know jokes are hard to interpret via text, but I don't get what you think I could have done as maf to create for such a slip -- forget who I was?

[Impoetic]

Didn't list PKM, Hyped, etc. because they'd all be null for obvious reasons

and because I forgot about them

.

[Impoetic]

I think that impoetic is leaning towards mafia. Green is leaning a little bit towards town. Thor is also townie. Lickity could be mafia trying to use meta to look himself town.

huh.

I think that one of the people not posting could possibly be mafia but voting them too quick can lean a fos from mafia later on

huh?

[Impoetic]

You sure aren't a robot because if you were one you'd have been among the people think I scumread myself xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

alright done being difficult. I think that was Zyf townslipping rather than scum!zyf picking something stupid to push on. Scum would see it for what it was, and probably wouldn't think it worth pushing on since it's easily confirmable as such; if anything, zyf would have to have been intentionally faking a townslip, but occam's razor and idk that's just how i see it. confbias=me

[Impoetic]

(The details make it look like it isn't a lie. Zyf is currently my top townread.)

[Impoetic]

You sure aren't a robot because if you were one you'd have been among the people think I scumread myself xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

alright done being difficult. I think that was Zyf townslipping rather than scum!zyf picking something stupid to push on. Scum would see it for what it was, and probably wouldn't think it worth pushing on since it's easily confirmable as such; if anything, zyf would have to have been intentionally faking a townslip, but occam's razor and idk that's just how i see it. confbias=me

I don't dislike a Zyf townread, though I am there more for meta reasons and have my own personal twings - but if you think that reaction makes Zyf look like town what makes that slot look more town in their reaction than the Dewy slot?

Forgot Dewy did it too (and probably tr'd dewy when I first saw it, just as I TR her now!)

To clarify, I never SRed dewy. It was my frail attempt at diverting attention from liquid/thor, in which I didn't particularly have anythign to contribute or want the lynchpool to remain, and rxn testing dewy for more info. I had been lean-town on dewy when I first considered her, but pulled the brief stunt anyway and then backed off because it wasn't worth keeping up to me lol

[Impoetic]

"in an attempt to diversify the discussion" would be a better way to put it. I wasn't 100% sure what it would accomplish but I just wanted to try rxn testing because... You know what, I don't know.

I don't think it's bad, odd, or abnormal of me to create a false read like that, but I do think it's unfortunate that I retracted it so quickly and regret that a bit

[Impoetic]

"Calling the team" and your current overcompensation (better?? it may not be true, sure, but hopefully this term raises no objections as a possible interpretation) for your previous slot being a target (reasonable as town, but read as scum that got a burst of adrenaline to me at first -- not as much now that I reconsider) put trivium somewhere near null to me RN.

[Impoetic]

"Calling the team" and your current overcompensation (better?? it may not be true, sure, but hopefully this term raises no objections as a possible interpretation) for your previous slot being a target (reasonable as town, but read as scum that got a burst of adrenaline to me at first -- not as much now that I reconsider) put trivium somewhere near null to me RN.

i have no idea what this post refers to
also who's trivium

WRONG THREAD I'M A DUNDERHEAD

[Impoetic]

"in an attempt to diversify the discussion" would be a better way to put it. I wasn't 100% sure what it would accomplish but I just wanted to try rxn testing because... You know what, I don't know.

I don't think it's bad, odd, or abnormal of me to create a false read like that, but I do think it's unfortunate that I retracted it so quickly and regret that a bit

Why would you attempt to "diversify discussion" through lies rather than through your actual thoughts?
An unexplained read list was unlikely to provide long-time discussion anyway.

As far as I'm concerned, transparency is the most important thing you can do as town.
Furthermore, the read list wasn't going to pressure anyone into talking without any vote or quotes to support some sort of case.

PEdit-Basically what thor said. Lies are risky as town

But thor how the heck does that apply
you know what I mean

The read list wasn't part of it, just me noticing that my reads were nearly teh opposite of LQ's.

I had no thoughts I thought particularly worthy or constructive and attempted to create them by, uh, faking it till I made it.

But thanks for the advice, Thor! <3

[Impoetic]

Honestly, I think Zyf is right.

You're claiming scum with Lickety? I think I'll pull a Zif/Dewy and VOTE: GreenNope

[Impoetic]

Could you prod Hyped?

Also I can't follow this argument. at all. ;___;

[Impoetic]

crying here

I just looked at the OP sorry

[Impoetic]

but thor do you still sr lickety

[Impoetic]

but thor do you still sr lickety

I MEANT TO SAY ZYF HERE KJITR'EIWQ


ZYF, do you still SR Lickety? Could you explain that read a second time for me? Sorry to trouble you.

[Impoetic]

you know what I actually agree PKM's posts are gut-scummy

[Impoetic]

A combination of the disinvolved attitude, the way he gave reads upon request (but not beforehand) in a way that rang as disingenuous to me on ISO reading it, and what I said already -- "gut."

Hrm
After that interaction I think I'll place LQ comfortably in Null.

personally I find null a bit uncomfortable

[Impoetic]

you can vote by

emboldening

the words "vote X" or you can vote with VOTE: or VOTE: tags, which automatically add the VOTE: part and highlight the text in white.

[Impoetic]

thanks, partner!

[Impoetic]

you say "'joking'" as if that's not what I'm doing!

But you're right, I made a similar joke already in this thread so that was uncalled for and I'm sure it got 0 chuckles.

[Impoetic]

P-edit: then do something about it!

What, you'd rather me push a lynch I don't believe in?

That was meant to be a supportive remark encouraging activity, not something accusing or aggressive, but I can see how you could interpret it that way. Of course I don't want you to push a lynch you don't believe in (unless you're scum, in which case, please let me catch you). Ask perceptive questions, re-read, look at interactions, whatever, I don't mind.

Ah, my bad. Thanks for the encouragement. <3

Null
Frog - Originally a townread but I'm clearly wrong on someone and you're backing off yourself as much as I am here so it's hard for me to reaffirm that you aren't the mafia.

I mean, I'm not sure what else I'm meant to do when the reasons for having suspicion on someone evaporate, but alright I guess

(I think it was me who put you there so)

Not necessarily thinking you SHOULD be doing more, just that my TR on you has turned to a nullread due to lack of interaction. I'm having the same problem here, so of course I can't fault you for it.

[Impoetic]

A combination of the disinvolved attitude, the way he gave reads upon request (but not beforehand) in a way that rang as disingenuous to me on ISO reading it, and what I said already -- "gut."

Hrm
After that interaction I think I'll place LQ comfortably in Null.

personally I find null a bit uncomfortable

...?
How is null uncomfortable?

most townies I know do not enjoy having people at null..............

SCUM MOTIVATION

[Impoetic]

Welcome!

[Impoetic]

Hint: the correct answer is "PKM's reads are almost entirely bad"

[Impoetic]

they scumread me and townread greennope

[Impoetic]

the Zyf tr IIRC

[Impoetic]

considering your joking wifom interactions
I don't exactly trust you either right
just letting you know in case you were thinking of getting on a high horse

Seriously?

I understand not trusting me for plenty of reasons, but you pick my jokes???? I'm obviously a newb to forum mafia but if the meta of this website is that jokes are scumtells I find that hard to justify.

[Impoetic]

Like, I've been flickering in and out of consciousness this game, figuratively speaking, so of course I don't expect everyone to fully trust me. That doesn't mean I have to agree with PKM's reads and he has not given any satisfying explanation so I don't have to think they're good reads, either, both on me and on others.

But there is absolutely no reason for jokes to be AI. Wifom in the way I would have to be doing it is absolutely useless and, if anything, suggesting possibilities that weren't otherwise there; as scum, I'd probably be scared people would change their reads on me. As town, I'm not. Hell, I was just thinking earlier that I wish I could be more involved in the action right now because I really don't know where to go from here.

I laughed aloud and commented to a friend on skype when I realized the people voting me for slipping were being sincere. Now I'm just baffled.

predit: meh

[Impoetic]

OK tbh I didn't comment when that happened but I did make a joke of it how serious the black-themed website was after I got called out for doing it again

[Impoetic]

Thanks for being so helpful and encouraging, frog. <3

ihopeyou'reonmyside

And sorry for snapping about the jokes. I get how it could worry someone, probably. I retain that it's NAI, but I understand it causing paranoia.

[Impoetic]

Pokedit: could you explain why, so the rest of us can follow?

I would like to know too.

[Impoetic]

I've been voting GreenNope awhile now and am assuming they're just busy instead of intentionally neglecting the thread, making it not a tell. Other people said they were catching up earlier, and it's getting to be a lot of content to catch up on, especially if you try to carefully scrutinize the walls.

[Impoetic]

OK I'm torn because entering with reads in a newbie game is probably towny but I really scumread her for her actual reads and would p robably switch to her if it weren't for her giving them without real prompt

[Impoetic]

Actually idk who i'm voting right now so VOTE: unvote I guess, until a voting log happens

[Impoetic]

Why is PKM townish? Could you give more detail on that?

Also I'm in no particular hurry to vote and hadn't realized that would be allowed lol

predit: ok sniped

[Impoetic]

No, I've never expressed any complaint about being null. Why would you jump to that conclusion?

[Impoetic]

Many of her reads are just descriptions. Others, like the Zyf read, seem just to be "going with the flow." The read on me would be fine as a null if she didn't sound so disingenuous about being concerned. This is gonna be hard to express, but I think a town player who has a TR and an SR on someone just puts more... thought into the read? Also, I'm not sure I believe that she believes that "trying to look relaxed" (aka looking relaxed) is inherently a scumtell. I think there's no reason for it to be a scumtell if it can't be a towntell too, and she seems to take it as a scumtell all the time. I didn't find PKM's jokey attitude to be anything but null, personally, but I'm obviously biased. I don't scumread logic just because I disagree with it; I scumread it if it doesn't look genuine. Convoluted AND WEAK logic generally looks disingenuous to me.

The reads on Thor and Dewy were BOTH description-esque AND going with the crowd opinion. The one on GreenNope could be trying to leave his options open because it's also kinda weak and usually you expect scumreads to have more meat to them compared to the null reads? Idk, I guess the problem could be that I REALLY don't like how Harko outs reads that seem to basically echo others' reads without acknowledging the

actual discussion

of those reads that has gone on.

I'm doubting my judgement after giving a closer look at the LQ read, though. Harko's thoughts on that issue remind me of my own and that's hard to SR, and the whole read makes me doubt myself about whether Harko's different approach is scummy or not.

Predit: I complained about one list. One. And PKM didn't out any logic to the reads. Also, it wasn't the REASON FOR MY SUSPICION.

[Impoetic]

well, without directly acknowledging the discussion that has gone on*

predit: I was not going to vote until I knew what was currenlty being voted to avoid a derp-hammer or accidentally putting someone at L-1.

[Impoetic]

But you have a point, I could have just looked at the person I planned to vote.

[Impoetic]

Oh and one more thing: The paranoia about thor sounds fake.

[Impoetic]

sorry, I hadn't noticed the pronoun at the time and stupidly assumed you were female because of your icon

[Impoetic]

oh now I get it fjgk.r'ew
qgh


thank you for standing up for me when I was too stupid to understand I was being gravely misinterpreted, froggie

[Impoetic]

Minus the references, that's what I was just attempting to do. I can go and grab another reads list and compare them, but I'm losing faith in my read now.

[Impoetic]

oh........ didn't think of it that way.

I don't think what I'm doing could be construed as intentional buddying though, Zyf.

[Impoetic]

Froggie, what happened was at first I was seeing Impoetic looking a little bit mafia alike, but after she was talking more and more she was towntelling better than mafia telling. Also everyone reads on her are neutral/town. She's been talking a lot which is also townie, and her joking is too risky as mafia since I heard this is the meta of the site: Joking= scum.

I feel bad but I have the same problem with this as I have with one or two of Harkon's reads; the logic is too convoluted, which makes me think it's formed after-the-fact.

P.S. I never got to reply to this post:

you say "'joking'" as if that's not what I'm doing!

But you're right, I made a similar joke already in this thread so that was uncalled for and I'm sure it got 0 chuckles.

But you made me laugh

oh also thank you for saying this PKM I don't think I ever expressed my

intense gratitude

at eliciting amusement from someone <33333

P.P.S. I'm totally going to do the comparison thing to the best of my newbish ability dw I didn't forget about it

[Impoetic]

and if they had been = mafia, it would be clear I didn't know that ahead of time since I was so shocked by getting called out for them

[Impoetic]

@Poetic

143/185 If you wanted pressure on me, why did you unvote?
[post=≈]158[/post] Not sure if this was addressed to me, but I thought it was a genuine scum slip. / scum giving up.

Unvote

I already answered that, I think. I unvoted because the vote itself was a whim and I just couldn't make snap decisions/couldn't justify keeping it. Also, the voting log was almost entirely real. My read on myself is something I assumed everyone would take for granted and the read on you, Dewy, was one I was already faking, so the only thing I faked for the read list was something I didn't expect anyone to tkae seriously (what kinda douche would give up as mafia that early in the game?). I was probably addressing Zyf in 158, but could just as easily have been talking to you had you been there at the time, so thank you for your answer.

I just caught up and can't be arsed to formulate any further thoughts... sorry!


predit: you can't edit posts, but if you click "preview" before clicking submit, you can see anything new that has been posted since you started writing. I know because I was specially informed of this my first game. xD

[Impoetic]

I think I'll eliminate some scum

pairs

here
Lickety/Thor
Impoetic/frog
Lickety/PkmSilver
frog/Thor
Dewy/Impoetic

@KittyMo-has GreenNope been prodded?

Indeed ~Mod

could you give more details on all of these? I know I've been having trouble keeping up with lickety and thor but some of these are incomprehensible to my noob self

[Impoetic]

[quote="

@Silver

163 with 7 pages of discussion, why go back to RVS?
172 Why is GN town and Poetic scum?

Sorry to ask but what's RVS?

GN sounds townie and Poetic, his reads all over the place, he is becoming hard to read. I will add more info into that when i re-read again

(note to self: Start on pg 8)

[/quote]
I can't tell what you're saying here actually. What's the quote and what did you actually say??

[Impoetic]

Why what? Why I town read her? She sounds townie(?)
Which part, exactly, sounded scummy tho?

At first the way she was talking looked scummy to me, but after a while her way of talking was more townie-looking. I think that's the mostly way I was scumreading her.

VOTE: pkmsilver
Start answering my and frog's questions, buddy

If, you don't realise I am only online in the mornings. Therefore I didn't answer his question until right now which i am doing

I am sorry I don't even know how to edit posts. FML

@everyone: is it seriously possible that PkmSilver still doesn't know what we're asking? I'm considering dropping a vote down at this point.

By the way, I had the same thought that Thor did; this doesn't seem like an alignment indicative problem. In my -- limited, non-forum-based -- mafia experience, it's rarely a good move to lynch someone over something that's incomprehensible as either alignment. When I don't understand someone's actions, they're

at least

as likely to be town as scum, if not more. What makes you think this could be a scum-indicative thing?

And I don't trust or understand all the votes dropped over his answers. I mean, this is probably because I'm so used to seeing people refusing to give any explanation for their reads and, when they do, just attributing them to "gut," but I kind of understand how he could be honestly giving these responses and I also think PKM is very new and should maybe be granted some more leniency.

That said, this is totally not a TR on PKM. I feel I should be careful with lynching the less competent and less active players, since those seem to be the easiest pushes for scum and the most likely defaults when we're failing to lynch mafia, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to lynch PKM if he remains the scummiest. I need to read lickety more though...

My main problem with lickety is his quick(!)ness when it comes to volunteering games he can be meta-read on. I know meta can be changed, and it shouldn't be his only defense, but I find it hard to lynch someone who's doing that. As I type this I realize how weak a line of thought I'm basing my reads off of so never mind tbh.

[Impoetic]

OK I'm fickle and totally on both of your side on this now but I sure hope you don't have to sub out, Zyf!

I apologize for being so thoughtless and... everything. I was planning to compare Harkon's reads list to Zyf's read-by-read but since I don't know if I really believe in that read right now, I'm not going to do that unless requested otherwise

or

unless I end up scumreading Hark's replacement.

[Impoetic]

thinking* not think. and I don't see how it's a townslip for me to make a joke about you guys thinking I scumslipped

[Impoetic]

and will do zyf! Sorry, haven't been checking this

[Impoetic]

Why in the world do you want him to do something townie if you don't know his alignment?! UNVOTE:

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

=)

[Impoetic]

Well can you????????

[Impoetic]

Oh sorry I didn't realize PKM wrote in the quotes Dx

[Impoetic]

OK I'm fickle and totally on both of your side on this now

Well can you????????

He did - read the post, here, I'll try to make it easier;

I'm trying dude, and I am still fairly new and you guys are having hard time against me, I know this is a wifom but if you must lynch me d1 you can. Anyways like Frog said? I believe I wouldn't last on LYLO.

I am sorry I don't even know how to edit posts. FML

PKM, could you please, please just try to explain HOW and WHY I was scummy/towny, rather than just when?

And I'm not asking you to claim. This isn't an ultimatum. Please do it anyway.

[Impoetic]

I was just about to reread lickety and then I realized I'm already voting him, lol. And for something relatively nugatory, to boot, but still a possible scumtell!!

It's really hard for me to follow you two in this game, so I have to confess I started just skimming the longposts directed @ each other. That was really stupid and lazy of me and I'll go make amends now.

Then I'll finally post the Harko thing, even though I've forgotten by now what I originally saw. I'm sure I'll remember once I reread her list, and at least it'll be there and I'll be able to show I REALLY AM trying to scumhunt and not just sit here sitting here. xD

[Impoetic]

I hesitate to hammer Lickety when I haven't seen them make any other pushes–I fail to see why a scum player's initial plan would be push pettily on an IC with a tendency to make wall posts; it has a very low chance of success, and there's plenty of newbies to pick on instead.
Pkm's just straight-up not trying so I'd rather have something from them D1.

You have a point on Lickety, but do you really think PKM's move as scum at this point would be to say "go ahead and lynch me"? I think it'd feel like dropping the ball on your partner to someone that new to the game, even if you know it's perfectly valid wifom. Idk... reconsidering as I type. xD

[Impoetic]

Maybe you could just take out the last sentence? Or maybe not...

Kidding, but ignore the last sentence in that post and it becomes perfectly fine.

[Impoetic]

Emotes are fun.

[Impoetic]

What's a "sub lurk" and a "soft lurk"?

[Impoetic]

@Poetic

After that interaction I think I'll place LQ comfortably in Null.

personally I find null a bit uncomfortable

Why is that?

I was pretty much just goofing off which is why I didn't respond the first time. I just said that because you said you were placing LQ "comfortably" in null, and I personally don't think it's normal for a townie to be content with null reads. But I doubt that was a genuine tell, and as I said, I was joking around.

[Impoetic]

I don't get the joke - I'm not claiming I'm selfless, I am pointing out that I did what I said I was doing, which you were claiming I wasn't.

I think you misread Frog's post. I mean, he might have been implying that on the side, but I think he was saying primarily that "a little over zero advice" was inadequate

[Impoetic]

please don't kill the messenger

[Impoetic]

I mean I don't see why you care so much since he already basically claimed blue

[Impoetic]

SERIOUSLY doubt town PR!PKM said "you can lynch me if you want" as wifom, froggo

[Impoetic]

Hey guys, reading up. I'll try to make this quick.

Currently see silver is at L1 with my slot having voted for them. Have we had intent/claim?

No but he's clearly villager.

[Impoetic]

EBWOP: or mafia.*

[Impoetic]

I have already pointed this out.

[Impoetic]

you mean he's clearly not PR?
VOTE: Impoetic
Scumslip?

Wait, it's

you

again.

The whole of my last post was me attempting to snarkily reiterate myself about how PKM is obviously claiming blue and if he claimed PR it would be a scumslip so I probably shouldn't have said it in the first place but whatever, he wasn't about to come back and magically see the two posts where I pointed out that he said "Lynch me if you want" and he probably wasn't going to claim PR anyway because he is likely blue.

On that note, I think I forgot to point out that the second time I made a joke about being mafia was my way of referencing the first mishap about how you all decided I slipped.

Scumslips usually involve logic, not wording. Even if I hadn't meant to say exactly what you asked about, it wouldn't be a scumslip!

[Impoetic]

(The tone of that last post sounds angry but I'm mostly joking with a side of exasperated.)

[Impoetic]

no it's perfectly not; I was talking about his claim, which is blue. I know what game I'm playing and I've seen plenty of "slips" (real to not-even-slightly) in the toned-down version I've played so far. They rarely come from WORDING and they

never, ever

come from things like "forgetting they're supposed to hunt scum." If someone were really doing that, they'd be speaking in broken English too, and they'd be trolling.

Like, do I really look like someone who would forget the goal of the game, even if I were scum? Because I've been scumhunting or talking about my inability to do so in many of my posts and I find it hard to believe you really think what you just said and omg like

[Impoetic]

were you dumbtelling the first time after all? Am I stupid for writing that off as genuine?

[Impoetic]

guys im so sry i rly did forgit i was hunting the maff Dxxxxxx im sorry......... gud luck if iget linched for it1!

[Impoetic]

oops I thought htis was mafia chat shit ((((

[Impoetic]

okay tbh please don't scumread me for that it was so much less stupid in my head

[Impoetic]

i'm sorry who was that addressed to

[Impoetic]

So why in the world do you think you'll know my alignment tomorrow

please don't be claiming pr right now

[Impoetic]

joking, regardless of the content, should be NAI in all but the most specific of circumstances. I kept thinking people would get a clue and figure out that I was joking about the same thing BECAUSE everyone made such a big deal out of it, and my intent was for it to be FUNNY. Unfortunately, I'm bad at humor, and people were still too genuinely hung up over the first instance of an alignment joke to laugh at the second and third ones. I will stop altogether.

I've made a lot of posts about why it should not be a scumtell I think. There's literally no incentive to do it as scum.

But whatever, I'm generally good at towntelling as town in the long run, so you'll probably figure it out *WHEN* PKM flips

villager

.

And I don't

know

he's villager, obviously, but that's my guess about his alignment at this point and it certainly seems to be his claim. ~_^

[Impoetic]

That time I was sort of frustrated but I regret expressing it like that now I'm sorry T_T

[Impoetic]

But see, if they said that, I'd believe it was a joke because it makes far more sense for it to be a joke than it does for it NOT to be such.

[Impoetic]

This whole argument has made me feel incredibly bad for my poor sense of humor, FWIW. It was pretty much pointless and all it did was stir this up. Genuinely sorry I didn't think of something better and realize those were still gonna be inappropriate -- especially the last one.

[Impoetic]

Alright fair enough, but I promise you I'd never ever use that as WIFOM for obvious reasons. At least you'll see when I flip, and I'll know better than to say things like that on this website.

Also I just realized I was wrong when I thought you hammered. That's probably good from a mechanical standpoint because -- as I said -- I'm of the belief that PKM is genuine, but tbqh I was kinda relieved the day was over and I'd see someone's flip. ;-; I'm bad @ scumhunting

[Impoetic]

you mean he's clearly not PR?
VOTE: Impoetic
Scumslip?

Wait, it's

you

again.

The whole of my last post was me attempting to snarkily reiterate myself about how PKM is obviously claiming blue and if he claimed PR it would be a scumslip so I probably shouldn't have said it in the first place but whatever, he wasn't about to come back and magically see the two posts where I pointed out that he said "Lynch me if you want" and he probably wasn't going to claim PR anyway because he is likely blue.

What do you mean by blue? Blue as in VT?

Scumslips usually involve logic, not wording. Even if I hadn't meant to say exactly what you asked about, it wouldn't be a scumslip!

Not necessary. Scumslips can involve anything that's a scum claim.

Oh, sorry. Yes, I meant VT.

[Impoetic]

And what I meant about scumslips is that simple miswordings and other things that aren't significantly more likely to be said by scum than by town are not scumslips, because they don't indicate alignment. What I meant by "involving logic," I'm not entirely sure...

[Impoetic]

*WHEN* PKM flips

villager

.

And I don't

know

he's villager, obviously, but that's my guess about his alignment at this point and it certainly seems to be his claim. ~_^

These two statements kind of contradict each other.

The first statement is my way of saying that's what he'll *probably* flip and the second line is me expressing self-doubt.

[Impoetic]

Oh yeah, welcome, you two! I forgot to say anything to jaereed earlier bc I was too shocked to see them in this game haha

also I really hope PKM's replacement doesn't just come in and get lynched, 'cause that would kinda suck

[Impoetic]

i'm SORRY MAN

also I sure hope I did something to make myself obvitown in this game somewhere cuz I TR jaereed now and my dislike of harkon's reads was probably unwarranted and more out of desperation due to not having a real sr tbh.

[Impoetic]

then again I sort of half-expected Jaereed to come in and be like significantly less towny than in the other game I'm playing with them, so maybe I'm just not taking into account the fact that people can towntell as mafia.

it's still lean-town.

[Impoetic]

oh man I just read jae's notes and I'm being SRed for fencesitting yeah I might actually get mld this game

I neeed to up my play and stop being lazy ;_; I just genuinely don't know where to start to actually get somewhere with my own reads. Also just realized I've been focusing on hwo everyone else reads me (probably as a result of that) in the last few pages, which probably made it WORSE for me, if anything. And it's literally the 2 people I feel best about RN.

Anyway I TR'd liquick at first too but I don't anymore because gut I guess

Speaking of Liquick, your tr on Greennope isn't explained well. I get not SRing them because they weren't too cautious about posting, in retrospect, but that's it.

Predit: It occurred to me that it might look like that and I don't know what to say to it. I saved this as a draft and reread your post to see if I could pinpoint what made me townread you, but it was mostly the lines about feeling uncertain and the reads on Dewy/Zyf/frog and I forget what else. frick.

[Impoetic]

131: me stating a case I never really believed in

but thank you for the advice. I'll try to take that to heart.

And unfortunately I forget exactly when and why I had the TR on him, except that I couldn't believe scum would willingly post all those games on which they could be metaread (though I didn't read the entirety of any of them myself, which I suppose I should have) and that he had some lines that came off as genuine? Post #33 specifically (I know because I posted about it, although I ended up taking it as a not-a-team tell) talks about how he had >already< been thinking the same, before-hand.

But lately I've just been thinking he's too caught up on Thor and his play feels defensive (does he even FoS Thor anymore? I can't tell) and... um, how about I get back to you on this? There are some lines that rung as insincere to me. Maybe I can quote those.

[Impoetic]

Also I just read a game out of his list on mafiascum and the one I happened to pick had him as scum that posted other games as evidence which was one of the things I was thinking was not a scum reaction so

[Impoetic]

pkm,

Can you do... something? Something Townie would be best.

OK I ended up going to the one I pointed out earlier to elaborate on it. Anyway, aside from what I think I already mentioned about how it didn't make sense for him to want PKM to look towny, at all, the first part sounds very much like an acted-out sentiment. The "..." contributes, and the tone of the post. Let me go back to the start of the game since those are the easiest posts for me to find. Wow for some reason I didn't think to use HIS iso until now what's wrong with me

Never mind, this is just a tonality thing. The lines I noticed on rereading were all things that I was back to being null or lean-town on when I read them a third time, so it's probably not worth quoting them here. Oh, aside from tone, I think it was Lick that posted some reads using words like "obvious" and "blatant" that stuck out to me.

Reads list:

Town:
Zyf - highest Town read. complete and utter obvtown.
Dewy - I like what they are doing. They are obviously trying to solve the game. I'm pretty confident they are Town, but not completely sure like zyf

Town lean:
GreenNope (or replacement) - This is a slot that is just really misunderstood. Only thing that gives me reserves is that I think they are replacing out
Impoetic - They have kinda fallen from top tier Town read with some things they have said, but overall they look pretty good.

Null:
frog - Like I feel their reasoning is pretty solid, but they have kinda taken a wait and see approach that I don't like a ton.
Jae - Like no activity from this slot all game. I don't see any reason to give a Town or Scum read here.
thor - like I feel all his reasons for things are based on the articulation of what was said including his own and I just can't give him a Town read for that.

Scum Lean:
Pkmsilver - I can't say I really like anything they have done. Everything just seems kinda empty. There is a chance they are Town and just not understanding anything, but if that's the case and they flip Town, I'm not sure where that leaves my reads.

Specifically the townreads.

Zyf - highest Town read. complete and utter obvtown.
Dewy - I like what they are doing. They are obviously trying to solve the game. I'm pretty confident they are Town, but not completely sure like zyf

Reading his iso, though, he sounds different from the game that I was skimming a moment ago. frick. Okay, so my read on him has varied and been mostly based on semantics and wording but I guess I also don't like his continuing with Thor.

That's elaboration, but not what I was expecting to be able to give.

Predit: Wait, so you TR Lick more than you TR Zyf? Where'd that come from?

[Impoetic]

It's really weird that he tr's greennope but not PKM though.

[Impoetic]

the "Predit" was from Jae's readslist and I don't know why I didn't see the posts between that and my post when I previewed the second time.

[Impoetic]

did anyone get back to you on the withholding thing?

also I will be honestly shocked if you flip scum this game for reasons but I haven't finished reading your iso in the other one yet. I won't explain since Jae's reasons are different from mine.

[Impoetic]

It was but nvm.

[Impoetic]

Dewy has been fading into the background for me, though. I also had a thought I didn't voice immediately that Quicket was really different in other ways last game that read as him being opposite alignments so I'm going to postpone deciding on that one. UNVOTE:

Also re:Zyf I had the same thought, as well as that the negative emotions about my jokes are probably genuine, and I'm glad Zae pointed to that/made that whole post because, ironically, I was doubting myself on them when they initially retracted their read on me. Zyf is really towny.

Predit: I thought Thor's post was discussing theory that explained why he was town so it was kind of both things, maaaaybe, but I certainly didn't have the same problem Lickety did with it.

Also, I think you have to at least be a relatively new player to think "forgetting you can't scumread yourself" can be a slip. I mean, I guess I have an advantage on that front, since I would probably be one of the first to learn the hard way if any such slip

could

occur. But I also find it hard to believe people would really interpret it that way. On the other hand, would scum push on something like that, knowing it wasn't a thing?

[Impoetic]

but like why would anyone state intent to hammer that early on?

[Impoetic]

Okay dude just for the record your scum game did nothing but make me paranoid where I was not before

and re: intent to hammer,

are you implying someone should lie about intent to hammer?

[Impoetic]

Welcome! You are very right.

[Impoetic]

In fact, VOTE: Dewy. I was having the same qualms but had some TR on Dewy until recently and I just think it was probably stupid enough that this is a good vote

[Impoetic]

@Jaereed:

Well, "no new content" would be an exaggeration, but dewy does do a lot of echoing and diddling.

Also, Dewy, I don't see how my vote looks opportunistic or scummy (enough for a vote on someone who wasn't being voted previously when we have little time left). For one thing, if I were mafia, I'd have any number of votes to pick out of for the same 2-vote outcome without drawing attention to the fact that I was sort of sheeping. What's special about Zyf that I should wait for him to vote someone NEW and then follow that?

[Impoetic]

Also, what's the motivation behind posting your reads list just then? Can you explain the reads in it? I don't really see the use of the sorted-name type lists without any words from the people giving them, but maybe I'm missing something.

And what about your vote on me? What's the motivation to that? It doesn't seem to be furthering a town goal.

[Impoetic]

Actually we still do have a couple days. My bad.

[Impoetic]

Okay dude just for the record your scum game did nothing but make me paranoid where I was not before

and re: intent to hammer,

are you implying someone should lie about intent to hammer?

no
I'm saying that adding the intent to hammer forces the claim and the info out of pkm more effectively than without it
It's more of a problem with dewy because they also asked questions expecting answers.

but if I don't have intent to hammer
then you're saying to lie about it for the sake of this, right?

[Impoetic]

Okay dude just for the record your scum game did nothing but make me paranoid where I was not before

and re: intent to hammer,

are you implying someone should lie about intent to hammer?

no
I'm saying that adding the intent to hammer forces the claim and the info out of pkm more effectively than without it
It's more of a problem with dewy because they also asked questions expecting answers.

but if I don't have intent to hammer
then you're saying to lie about it for the sake of this, right?

This was more of a problem with Dewy than with you.
See case on them–they pushed a Pkm lynch without ever actually doing anything.
You never really seemed to interested in it so you're fine.

Lying on intent to hammer is not something I personally think is a great idea unless you're trying to make yourself look worse.
I'm not an official authority though.

Thor?

Okay but I thought you didn't want PKM lynched? Wasn't the BW about getting information out of him?

Why does actually intending to hammer if he didn't answer at that point make any sense at all?

In fact, VOTE: Dewy. I was having the same qualms but had some TR on Dewy until recently and I just think it was probably stupid enough that this is a good vote

elaborate on these qualms of yours.

I'm starting to believe Dewy's really just faking her content after all and is not looking for scum. So like, gut, again

but mostly she has faded into the background in my mental picture of things and PoE in that, at the moment, I'm not seeing anyone else as suspicious that is caught up (and I think it's unlikely that both mafia are in the hot-potato slots, simply because of the statistics and the fact that it makes so much more sense for people to hope for that out of convenience than for it to really be true)

I mean it's too late now because I just did but why omgus on a strong townread (for many people) that isn't going to get pushed without some solid logic behind it?

This was my problem

[Impoetic]

No, obviously that wasn't my reasoning, nor was it supposed to be a defense. It's not furthering a town goal to vote someone who A) isn't being voted and B) isn't being put under pressure by your vote. She barely justified it and what I meant by the "this was my problem" line was that I thought I had already said the thing I quoted in different words, but apparently I hadn't

did that make sense? I'm not sure that made sense

predit: oh

[Impoetic]

2) That logic is as bad as saying the wagon-causer/second vote in RVS is scum. Receiving support for a lynch you didn't think was going to happen or getting a wake-up call/nudge from other players is a completely legitimate reason for putting your vote on someone.

I still don't see how it looked opportunistic to Dewy, which is part of my roundabout way of saying her vote on me is scummy.

If she read the 2 votes behind my post, 1 was you voting and the other was someone bringing up that there should be wagons by now.

And here's my

actual

defense: if I had actually wanted to put my vote on a townie, as scum, the "opportunistic" play would be placing a second vote on one of the many

other

currently-voted players, where it didn't look suspicious. At the very least, it would be just as likely as it would be for me to sheep you immediately like that, if not less so.

[Impoetic]

Isn't close to being voted by anyone else* she wasn't pushing for me to be the lynch for the day and was just among the people mentioning that we're getting close to the day-end. That came out wrong, because it normally wouldn't be a problem, but it sort of is right now and hopefully you see that too or something.

[Impoetic]

I don't like it when people say "if I were scum I would do this"
It holds no water and in reality implies that you could have deliberately done what you did to appear to blend in/defend yourself because you thought about it beforehand--if anything it makes you scummier rather than townier.

I wasn't talking about what *I'd* do, because I haven't thought about that. I'm talking about why Dewy's perception of what I did do, as town, as being "opportunistic."

[Impoetic]

Isn't close to being voted by anyone else* she wasn't pushing for me to be the lynch for the day and was just among the people mentioning that we're getting close to the day-end. That came out wrong, because it normally wouldn't be a problem, but it sort of is right now and hopefully you see that too or something.

actually let me elaborate because we might not be on the same page here
It's a problem because they are using day-end (which what with GL replacing in could easily be extended at any point in the near future) to pressure people into joining a wagon they may nott really believe in, and using that as a premise to attempt to convert a pretty obvious omgus on her vote on you into a real lethal wagon-which could remove a strong threat to her survival in lategame.

you're right, we're not completely on the same page.

I just think her vote was fruitless and her pressuring people before it due to the deadline approaching indicates that she might not be totally genuine about her thought process here.

I don't really picture anyone expecting a lethal wagon to form due to the actions Dewy took, or how it would affect her survival lategame. eli5? ^^;

[Impoetic]

I don't like it when people say "if I were scum I would do this"
It holds no water and in reality implies that you could have deliberately done what you did to appear to blend in/defend yourself because you thought about it beforehand--if anything it makes you scummier rather than townier.

I wasn't talking about what *I'd* do, because I haven't thought about that. I'm talking about why Dewy's perception of what my actual actions as being "opportunistic" doesn't make much sense to me

ebwop

[Impoetic]

Echoing is one thing but excessive echoing without acknowledging it was something that I assumed was a scumtell because it's going with the flow. Then again, you're right, it's not entirely specific to dewy.

I don't like how fast this BW happened even though frog sr'd dewy before. |:

[Impoetic]

I considered unvoting but yes, for now.
Why??

[Impoetic]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: frog

ok i get it yes bad move on my part. i just don't know who scum is and

[Impoetic]

Impoetic, is that just for claiming intent or does this vote have more conviction than your previous two?

Conviction doesn't come naturally to me so don't bother asking me that but it's for your sudden hammer intent just now (and what Thor pointed out about the circumstances), your asking for someone to state intent earlier on someone you claimed you just wanted information from, how indistinguishable this is to me from the bits and pieces I read of another game you played as scum, and I guess

PoE? you were my choice other than dewy

[Impoetic]

I don't f*cking know

VOTE: unvote

[Impoetic]

Oh dear I missed a lot

[Impoetic]

Now, onto some proactive stuff: Dewy has not posted since the wagon on her took off, and, if this is lurking, this only adds to the points that have already been brought up against her. These can be summarised as flying under the radar, copying other people's content and asking obvious questions and then failing to follow any of them up in an effort to seem like she's scumhunting, changing reads with little explanation in an effort to 'fit in', and, now, avoiding answering other players' concerns. Thor has attempted to rebut some of these, but his attempts are inconsistent with his opinions elsewhere. To take one example: Thor believes Dewy is simply new, taking their first steps at scumhunting, although her behaviour in this regard would be scummy for any other player. Thor also scumreads GreenNope/Malakittens over something that is much more obviously the result of being new, that of having reservations about starting wagons and when to vote. His white knighting, at any rate, has already been noted; what we need right now is for Dewy to get in here, explain herself, once and clearly, and claim.

I don't think Dewy falling inactive here is either convenient for her as scum -- right when activity could make or break her lynch -- or likely to be a tell in the first place since, as far as I know, inactivity is more often the result of having other things to do than the result of a situation in-game.

Not caught up yet cuz I went to sleep after my last post ^^; rip

[Impoetic]

so what are your scumreads and why?

The point of this exercise is not just for you to convince me of your townread, because first I have to believe you're town.

I've already explained the Dewy scumread - in short, it's because I cannot believe that she would, as town, think that "impoetic forgot that she shouldn't be scumreading herself".

But this was after the 8 pages mentioned in Zyf's quote and before you were subbed in. What's the deal?

Thor I think could be a scumbuddy because he carried his push on LQ far beyond where it should have gone, and he's townreading the Dewy slot for really contrived feeling reasons. In fact, I'd wager that if Dewy flips town he's almost guaranteed to be scum, but I tend not to want to lynch the IC on D1 in newbie games because night actions will usually resolve that slot one way or the other.

So which is it? Is he more likely to be maf if she flips town or if she flips scum? This paragraph confuses me.

[Impoetic]

But he scumread her and Thor at 8 pages and his read never changed, right?

[Impoetic]

He said "dewy-thor scumteam" in that post. Wasn't his whole thing on Thor the contrived logic and his whole thing on Dewy the "Impoetic got movie amnesia and forgot her username" thing?

predit: Then why did you include the words "if dewy flips town"? And how was Dewy scummy at the beginning? I don't remember Dewy starting out scummy at all.

[Impoetic]

Oh frck my bad lol

[Impoetic]

I'm pretty sure that I already responded to this, but I'll do it again just in case.

Also, Dewy, I don't see how my vote looks opportunistic or scummy (enough for a vote on someone who wasn't being voted previously when we have little time left).

Your vote on me was opportunistic because you scum read me for sometime and waited for some else to push me. You didn’t want to deal with the consequences of pushing a ml, so you waited for someone else to push me so that they would have to deal with the consequences instead of you.

For one thing, if I were mafia, I'd have any number of votes to pick out of for the same 2-vote outcome without drawing attention to the fact that I was sort of sheeping. What's special about Zyf that I should wait for him to vote someone NEW and then follow that?

I’m not liking the line “If I were mafia.” It just adds WIFOM of whether or not you are scum. The second question is answered in my answer above. "Your vote on me was opportunistic because you scum read me for some time and waited for some else to push me. You didn’t want to deal with the consequences of pushing a ml, so you waited for someone else to push me so that they would have to deal with the consequences instead of you.”

Look, I've already tried to explain this and pardon me for using the words "if I were mafia" that tripped up both you and Zyf, but this case is completely invalid because if I were scum and didn't want to be the first vote on a wagon for SOME REASON(???) I had like 4 other 1-vote wagons to jump on that WOULDN'T be me literally me sheeping my tr two posts after they posted their vote.

And if you read those two posts, my thought process should be pretty obvious and elementary, Watson.

...But it doesn't matter, because you're doing nothing to get me lynched and I don't think you think you can get me lynched, so I don't see the point of your vote, ESPECIALLY if I'm actually null instead of scum to you.

Also, you asked Zyf to give examples of you sheeping the overall sentiment, which is largely what he was doing in that case you claimed not to understand the purpose of.

(I've personally lost faith in the echoing being scummy with the testimony of Thor on whether it's AI and the number of your posts that you made before being caught up. )

[Impoetic]

Your logic on me is basically Green's on Thor. "Second vote??? Scum agenda!"

If I... okay, if I AM mafia, I could have "scumread" anyone so long as I thought I could believably get them lynched.

(Is "if I am" better than "if I were"? Because by "I" I mean "anyone," since I'm talking about basic logic rather than self-meta.)

[Impoetic]

Oh look, my vote's unneeded. Yay for coasting =)

[Impoetic]

lickety stating intent but I really just wanted to say the last sentence and put the obnoxious smiley face there

and I was trying to say that I didn't necessarily agree with the case on Dewy for lacking content because of Thor the IC's comment on it being NAI and because Dewy seemed to be echoing accidentally due to not having seen the posts she was copying.

I still don't feel good about going in either direction on Frog and Dewy. I'm so bad at forum mafia, omg.

[Impoetic]

P-edit: Thor's vote on GN was RVS. Yours wasn't.


Sucks that I can't vote you both.

So if Thor had been adding pressure to something for a reason other than RVS, it would be scummy because he voted second?

Read and respond to my actual ARGUMENT instead of just the snarky simile, thanks.

And you put me at null, did you not? Why would you want to vote a nullread? Why would you want to vote

two

people when you can only lynch one, and why would you want to vote them without convincing anyone else to vote them with you? A single vote is ineffectual even if it's on multiple people who aren't close to being lynched.

I've said all this before; now I'm just repeating myself.

Predit: (by the way, previews don't seem to show all the posts made since I started writing) don't worry, I'm not flipping scum this time c:

Predit2: I understand the argument but when I first noticed the posts I decided they were closer to town derping out than scum dumbtelling because it seemed like there was no actual reason for scum to do it, but you say Nahdia and your GF both think it allows scum to get on a wagon without really investing in it, so IDK. I could go either way on it. Dewy has done some other stuff that looks like it could fall in line with her potentially dumbtelling, but I mean... it could also fall in line with her being able to make that slip and being VT, so I'm not sure what to think here.

Predit3: also yeah, I was relieved when you said that because both you and Zyf have made me doubt my TRs, but especially Zyf, and it was nice to see I wasn't alone in that for some reason. but yeah his scum game made me paranoid

[Impoetic]

One more piece of clarification if you're really not getting this, Dewy: I was leaning towards NOT voting you until Zyf voted and GuiltyLion(?) pointed out that we needed to start forming some BWs, at which point I changed my mind.

There is no reason for scum to vote right after someone else votes as opposed to voting someone who had been voted by the same amount of people (that is to say, one) for multiple pages. I'm not saying this is a TOWNtell, but it shouldn't be a scumtell. Yeah, whatever, everything can be WIFOM. I'm not attempting to clear myself, I'm attempting to explain what seems pretty obvious to me, with the confbias of being me.

[Impoetic]

And I'm serious in asking why you say I'm null and want to vote me at the same time. I mean, I only know you said I was null because Zyf mentioned it, but still.

[Impoetic]

I don't know what it is with missing posts in Preview rn. It could be me rather than the forum lol. I guess that's more likely.

As for Zyf, have you had no doubts on the Dewy wagon at all? Like, haven't any of her posts just seemed towny to you? What about GL, PKMSilver's replacement, being so certain? I was personally leaning town on PKM when he replaced out, but you were voting him and apparently you were one of the people on the "please claim intent, somebody" boat so it can't have been null, right?

Predit: That makes it

worse,

Dewy! Why would you want to vote a lowkey townread?

[Impoetic]

also your case on jaereed is seriously inadequate. I find it weird that no one else is indecisive about their votes. In fact, Jaereed just completely reaffirmed my townread on them so if they're scum, I've been had.

[Impoetic]

It doesn't even seem like you're aiming for a lynch on Jaereed.


In fact, I'd expect scum to be pushing on someone else who was likely to get lynched right now. That's what I've seen happen so far from both scum and PRs. Somehow I don't think that's wifom from Dewy.

[Impoetic]

OMG Nahdia's your gf? :O

[Impoetic]

OMG Nahdia's your gf? :O

<3 She's taking a break from mafia soon which makes me sad. You should convince her she wants to keep playing!

When I said that, she said she wasn't quitting but wanted to limit herself to four games and wait until the ones she was in finished before joining more. Also you two are both so sweet. <3 I ship it!

Oops I missed a lot

[Impoetic]

dewy you just claimed cop/tracker so please hardclaim

[Impoetic]

I see no reason for town not to hardclaim here and I also can't believe you would wait that long to claim as pr

though it's whatever actually

[Impoetic]

I asked her if we could adopt you and she said yes so... <3

Why is this happening again

Because Dewy is town. That's why.

!!! <333

Also I actually thought that claim was scummy but I hard tr you atm (inb4 mafscum) and she'll probably be obvious tomorrow if she's mafia so okay.

If frog's at L-1 I'm claiming intent now

[Impoetic]

unless there's already a counterclaim to cop/tracker or like, a jailkeeper or bulletproof in which case I'm not

[Impoetic]

I was literally typing how i'd autovote dewy if there was a cc VOTE: dewy

you shouldn't have claimed because mafia know if there's a doc

[Impoetic]

I should have just voted. I'm like 90% sure zyf is town over dewy. please be a doc please be a doc

[Impoetic]

OH WAIT the roleblocker's next to cop I'M AN IDIOT

so it's actually fine lol

[Impoetic]

no but mafia don't know if there's a doc in the 2 setups w tracker. That was with cop.

[Impoetic]

this is actually a good situation lol. 50% chance maf hits you and we get an extra investigation and possibly ml. just don't wifom as doc!!!!

[Impoetic]

or wait i'm stupid idrk. sorry thought takes me a while

[Impoetic]

i think i'm actually just doing maf's work for htem but i was trying to figure out what dewy meant so i'm stuck in role chart mode :Ccc

It could be thor yeah

[Impoetic]

in fact, it's very likely thor.
predit: oh wow lots of stuff i'm dumb but yes thor that's it

[Impoetic]

Sorry Zyf, I should have picked up on the soft.

Impo, Dewy claimed that way specifically so we wouldn't know if there's a roleblocker.

soft

S

I thought she claimed that way because there are more potential setups she's in though. that's why i thought she was really scummy.

Predit: yeah.

[Impoetic]

Zyf I love your icons

[Impoetic]

inb4 dewy flips pr

that would be amazing

[Impoetic]

telepathy, jae.

I forgot about lq though and I'm not so sure of that but I still think it's Thor.

but omg I just closed my computer to go to bed and remembered that chart one more time and BP ACTUALLY DIDN'T CONFLICT WITH DEWY'S CLAIM AND COULD STIL LBE IN THE TRACKER SETUP I'M A MORON. I lITERALLY TOLD BP TO CLAIM WHEN THAT COULD HAVE BEEN AN ABSOLUTE DISASTER AND LIKE it all turned out fine but I'm so stupid omfg.

[Impoetic]

I agree, the game's solved. I just feel so stupid for that and I needed to spill it out a bit.

BP doesn't even remotely conflict with tracker. I just lumped it in with jailkeeper like an idiot. OK, simple chart understood. Done. GG

[Impoetic]

Frog probably isn't mafia with Dewy because he was buddying Dewy, remember? Then he tried to get her lynched to save himself. It just seems very unlikely.

I'm sure we'll be fine if we're wrong but I feel pretty confident the game is over, haha.

[Impoetic]

We still have like 4 MLs. This will be a win, DW.

[Impoetic]

sorrryyyy I should have put a V/LA flag up for the past couple days when I realized I wouldn't be here too much, but I didn't think of it. Haven't caught up yet.

[Impoetic]

VOTE: Thor

Please don't, that kill is such non-anything. It was just what scum was going to do regardless of who scum was.

I think LQ, Mala, and off chance Impoetic are my current thoughts.

Impoetic seems rather unlikely for the scum slip move - which was the first real push Dewy went on.
He kind of sat on Mala all day as the side vote of choice - maybe it was an elaborate distance, but...eh.

Vote: LicketyQuickety

Let's do this, if I'm wrong you can lynch me tomorrow if you still want to take townreading Dewy as claiming scum for some derp reason, and then I'd advocate Mala afterwards.

I'd advocate taking Mala and Imp as confirmed town, and Guilty as almost so, and JaReed as a distant fourth.

are you pr? because I know this is confirmation bias speaking but if you're not pr i'm like 10000% voting you today, especially after this entrance. I can't imagine this would be your approach as town atm

[Impoetic]

made that post and then remembered we could only ask for claims at L-1 and now I have to go figure out what thor's currently at so I don't accidentally ruin the game

[Impoetic]

uhh, because FIRST OF ALL there are always at least 2 PRs and I'm having trouble retaining the table in my head for a long time but I mean... why would I want to risk derphammering a potential PR -- especially when their status might explain a post I SR'd? :T

Anyway, I thought your entrance was most definitely putting self-preservation and wifom before finding scum. I don't see why you'd agree to be lynched if you were wrong instead of simply allowing yourself to be lynched first with the understanding that others would sheep, outside of WIFOM, and I don't understand your thought process in the post I quoted pertaining to reads either; your "confirmed town" reads seem awfully blithe, especially since one of the top 2 has yet to be able to catch up (unless it's me doing that now and they actually have, RIP) and aside from reasons I don't fully understand -- or rather, I do not have the experience to be capable of understanding your

confidence

in them -- you don't do much in the way of making sure town will believe you or not.

Also, the line about how it could be an elaborate distance stunt is A) not in line with the attitude I've perceived from you so far when it comes to scumhunting and B) not in line with how you seemed to perceive Dewy prior at all to the extent that I'm not sure the flip would spur you to say it genuinely godthatsentencewasincomprehensible.jpg

As per usual from me, this isn't a particularly convincing post nor is it necessarily identical to what I was thinking when I first brought up that I had any problems with your entrance today, and I really don't see a reason to try and reorganize it so it has a chance of being coherent.

I shall do as you ask. Sorry if I'm just being an idiot towny and sheeping. VOTE: Thor665

LQ looks like he's dumbtelling but I had some reason to exclude him from my list of potential mafi either cuz of partner tells or cuz of jae townreading him.

[Impoetic]

except according to jae's meta, that's thor's normal approach to scumhunting, and unless LQ was already locked to reading only thor and no one else before thor's partner flipped...

[Impoetic]

why is lickety not on this lynch? who does he fos? have I just totally not been paying any attention or has lq been fencesitting since dewy's lynch?

[Impoetic]

if thor claims pr at this point he's probably still mafia lol

[Impoetic]

I guess I should have followed up before day end but the problem wasn't that it was "derp logic", it's that there was really no logic at all.

And it was "no logic" that *multiple* players followed.
They aren't all scum.
Just saying.

you misunderstood my point here

you said Dewy was presenting "derp logic"

but my reply was that I didn't see ~any~ logic in Dewy's Impoetic push, and that's why she was caught scum

Not really talking about who (correctly) jumped on Dewy after that

also thor's pointing out that neither of zyf and frog really disagreed with it, though they both were more on the fence about it all

[Impoetic]

same here, but just then I was attempting to communicate that thor was talking about people sheeping the lynch on DEWY, not the lynch on me, which guiltylion seemed to be confused about(?)

[Impoetic]

I used to be fluent in English, then I took an arrow to the knee.

[Impoetic]

Yeah, that was Thor's point.

I don't think Zyf or Frog were necessarily thinking the same kinda scumslip as Dewy suggested though. Like, they just didn't like it because "wifom!!1"

[Impoetic]

also <3

but I don't really remember for sure so don't quote me on any of that tbh

[Impoetic]

I know I'm being a pleb but my inclination is to sheep thor's LQ read if he flips town rn

[Impoetic]

don't prod me I'm scared

[Impoetic]

Oh, how exciting!

And good game, everyone! I'm sorry for being a bit of a deadweight (esp. towards the end). I think Thor was sort of a victim of circumstance but I also felt like everyone was playing well and I feel way more prepared for a non-newbie game now, other than the one I subbed into. Sort of a relief this is over. I'd have gotten super paranoid if Thor hadn't been mafia there, lol.

[Impoetic]

Could you explain what about my playstyle makes you paranoid, though? It'd be interesting to know.

I think it's a tonereading thing. I like to play a lot by gut & tone. The way you structure your sentences gives me a weirdly null gut feel every time I read your posts, which is usually what I get from the better scum players...

I think your content is fine, but the way you phrase things puts me on edge. It's hard to explain for me since it's not a "oh you keep saying x thing which I associate with scum" kind of deal, and more just "I can't townread your tone".

I'd also recommend breaking up your paragraphs a little more? But that's more just a personal preference thing for readability.

I think I'm the same.

Frog, you play really well, as far as I know, and project that in your posts. From my point of view, your demeanor was that of someone who knew what they were doing. Scum is informed and town is not, so while people like you don't automatically seem scummy in my eyes, they make me more paranoid than people who make their confusion and uncertainty really obvious in their posts (unless I htink they're dumbtelling).

This isn't necessarily a good way for me to read, at least in forum mafia, but it's something I've always done in the version of mafia I've played in the past (which goes by a lot faster and has a lot less effort or logical analyses being presented) and it's more of a visceral reaction than a logical one. I also hesitate to mislynch these players d1 if they seem competent, though, even if I sort of SR them.

Anyway, I think it's similar to what Jae's talking about. I felt the same with Thor, and still sort of TR'd you both towards the beginning. Luckily, actual circumstantial evidence meant I didn't have to read off tone lol.

[Impoetic]

Also it's awesome that people here are willing to give constructive criticism to other players and I'd ask except I think the important stuff on my play has already been pointed out to me -- that is, that I need to be more confident, as Frog pointed out, and that I need to actually push my scumreads, as Jae mentioned to me.

And that I need to play to my role I guess. The only thing I did that had anything to do with being BP was accidentally soft PR and then dumbtell more for shits and giggles than for any protown reason lol. I forgot BP

wanted

to be killed...