Newbie 1744 - Game Over

[SpyreX]

Hi all!

I'll be vla today to a degree. Let's kill each other all civilized like.

[SpyreX]

FrankJeager, have you ever played Mafia before?

Copper, why have you made your scumminess so clear for all to see?

What made you decide to ask frank specifically?

Do you think frank is the type to reply as he sees a salient point?

@frank, what actual vexation do you think that vote adds?

[SpyreX]

Hello.

Jason and Frank, what's your reasoning for voting SpyreX? I don't think he had said anything but 'hello' when you voted him.

What stands out about this versus the other votes cast?

[SpyreX]

I'm just asking questions at this point. I've got something to say from this page, but not yet.

The others are 'justified' as well as Jasons was. Franks is a bit different yes

[SpyreX]

Because I'm a replacement and he wanted to play with the original

[SpyreX]

Nothing on this page is. This is fairly common - votes do start discussion and it's a good way to propel things forward. Usually the only one fora normal game, in one form or another.

[SpyreX]

Toto, the links in the first post do a better overall job than i ever could hope to.
Now specific questions, general things, yes I'll be glad to help.

[SpyreX]

@FrankJeager, I've played once in real life almost a decade ago and once on these forums inbetween now and then under a different account.

What made you decide to ask frank specifically?

Do you think frank is the type to reply as he sees a salient point?

I decided to ask Frank because he was the first person to post in thread, apart from our lovely moderator.

Jason, I don't think we would have gotten much information out of whatever he had to say, considering all he had to answer to was empty threats. He has a very valid point about seeing new players react to RVS. Even if it isn't very sportsmanly, nor newbie friendly, it isn't his job to explain such things (In fact our IC already did). Furthermore, there is no virtue in being sportsmanly when the scum certainly won't be.

Kaladin and TownCop, I want to see you in this thread.

Hmm? Frank hadn't posted when you asked that question.

[SpyreX]

Hmm. Let's just say for the moment I'll play nice but one of you scum would make me kill the other in rapid succession.

What are your thoughts on the back and forth this page?
What do you think of Gideon?

[SpyreX]

It's all good I've got good feelings about you mr Gideon.

What do you take from the last page

[SpyreX]

Village idiot. The implication that they ate both town and playing poorly

[SpyreX]

What about gideon was actually defending me and from what?

Why would you lynch frank first?

Why do you have no opinion about the giant walls or the parties involved?

[SpyreX]

Let me rephrase. What about that vote would concern me at all? Even if i was scum, what about a second page 1 vote would be vexing

[SpyreX]

Yours is different because, clearly, you felt like it was applying actual pressure. That's the start of an actual wagon versus just standard nonsense starting votes

[SpyreX]

I will, but not quite yet. Remind me if i haven't once the game starts being more active.

[SpyreX]

Frank if you could shoot someone right now, who and why

[SpyreX]

I'll leave that for him to answer, but there's a very clear disconnect between your statement and my perception of that reality.

If that's actually your plan, why not even vote to show belief in it.

Pedit:

I dont have a problem with it. It should be very clear the probing is just that.

I'll say that generally speaking your premise can be correct much later. This early? Very doubtful

[SpyreX]

There's few hard and fast rules. Personally i hate reaction tests, mostly because it inevitably involved doing something scummy to see something.

Id shoot jason right in his face as of right now

[SpyreX]

Faking a cop claim, actively choosing to.lurk, etc etc.

Some.things are scummy, some things are seriously scummy. Those tend.to be the 'lolreactions' stuff that's made me.so jaded.

I'll give more details down the road. I'm playing a patient d1.

[SpyreX]

Copper what makes you think Jason is town from your discussion?

[SpyreX]

Otherwise on day two we lynch Gideon who is overly-defending Spy.

Oh, now I see the concern with my defense of Spy. Forgive me, this is my first game, I was confused why somebody was being lynched randomly. Now, it may be my first game, but I'm not stupid. If I were mafia the smart thing to do would be to distance myself from him. I'm not doing that, am I?

What do you think you did to defend me, versus the behaviour itself?

[SpyreX]

Hmm. Fair enough.
This is why, of course, I'd shoot him versus the lynch.

[SpyreX]

Yes there's no need for a hammer at this point.

Remember when i was talking about reaction tests? This is a baby version of that.

P-edit: I'm engaged, but deep meaningful content will come much later. If copper is the 'leader' I'll be the 'observer' for the time being

[SpyreX]

Post count in and of itself isn't very indicative. It's more about what they are doing with the gamestate and involvement in that sense.

Gideon, for me, is the one i would gamble the game on being town at this point.

[SpyreX]

We're in agreement. Seeing some kind of post count showoff was worth stopping at the start.

[SpyreX]

Don't get stuck in numbers. Although i do like your approach in looking at it

[SpyreX]

That's town confused through and through though. I'll give that for sure.

[SpyreX]

I'd actually agree with toto to a large degree about towncop.

[SpyreX]

Which part at this point do you think would be why I'd vote there?

[SpyreX]

It's a combination of things.

Put on your scum hat for a moment. You want to make sure town get lynched. Usually that is going to require a vote. But,of course especially as a newer player, you're them forced into a fabrication time. You don't want to leave an unjustified vote so you have to give a reason. Ideally, something you can swing away from if necessary.

Something like for pressure.

And talking about the statistics, presuming knowledge, reading games, etc. You would see while in and of itself a vote is a vote the growth of a wagon starts to dictate scum will be on it.

[SpyreX]

I haven't moved my vote. Or even voted.

So big ol swing and miss.

[SpyreX]

So where did my opinion switch? Where have i talked about towncop before this page?

[SpyreX]

If hc's frank stuff is as you say i feel much better about that slot as well.

[SpyreX]

Hs even. Realistically toto i feel OK about. Just a little bloodlusty.

Leaving the outside towncop, jason, smooth and frank. I feel fairly good about that.

[SpyreX]

Having reads is never a bad thing. I find, as i get old and wized, a full list is rarely as helpful as broad strokes. Unless you have a really strong feeling about someone specific.

@copper:
Still strong enough i wouldn't lynch him today but you may have seen some sweat beading up if i had bet the game.

[SpyreX]

While we wait for TC answers,

@Spy: in 21 you promised to reveal a mystery in page 1. Also, in 123 you promised meaningful content.

And one more IC question, are you scum?

Those are statements i have made. They're not false.

No, I'm not scum. Is this a meaningful question when you attempt to call me out for meaningful content?

[SpyreX]

Actually part of that we've already discussed. Gideon reads very town from the exchange.

The other part was related to franks posting. It requires reply per pist to make sense which I'm still on the fence about but it's probably a preference thing not worth lying about

[SpyreX]

Actually part of that we've already discussed. Gideon reads very town from the exchange.

The other part was related to franks posting. It requires reply per pist to make sense which I'm still on the fence about but it's probably a preference thing not worth lying about

Specifically which parts?

The whole exchange? I mean having the knowledge I'm town makes it clear is not a defense (which the new guy coming out protecting the ic would be hilarious) and it was very clearly trying to figure out what's going on. And being that worried about a wagon that early feels town.

[SpyreX]

See once again I've heard inactive. That's far from the truth. Passive for now, yes.

But who actually doesnt know where i stand

[SpyreX]

Lose it all you want.

Again, he yells to the stars, what content is it you're actually missing? Is content secret talk for a vote? Is it reads?

Because, as you can plainly tell, I'm clearly here.

[SpyreX]

I took tomorrow off. Its been enough passivity as activity seems to be dropping. I'll be posting in full.

@copper
I've got a good feeling about you. Reread the first 4 pages. Give me what you think about Gideon, frank, hs and Jason. I've got some opinions and concerns there and i want a fresh set of eyes.

[SpyreX]

Copper:

Town. Only hesitation is the spat with Jason, but even then ONLY on a Jason-scum flip - If it's fabricated, it is both sides.

Frank:

Town. Major paranoia point is the P1 second-vote, but that is probably my personal paranoia combined with how I read the game and post. If NOT for that point, then I would only be concerned with the volume of content.

Gideon:

Town. I still find that early exchange to be town. Some of the voting pattern could be suspect depending on how things play out, but I'm still very much confident with that read. I'm not as sure as I was, but it's a hard sell. TownCop-town would make me a lot more hesitant.

Human Sequencer:

Town. Unless Frank ends up being a slip, which I doubt, town. I especially like the thought process around Toto and how his read has adapted.

JasonWazza:

Scum. He'd still be the one I'd shoot.
I'm known for playing fast and loose with the English language, because I do love me a great hyperbole, but there is a line between exaggeration for effect and painting a different story then what actually is happening:

I stated my reason, why do you feel the need to defend him?

I'm sad because Gideon wasn't more offensive about this. Gideon asking about the two votes isn't defending

me

because its a question of the behavior of the two of them - the target itself is fairly moot. And somehow, my guess is because this IS a newbie, that didn't get lit up.
But, its not as if its happened just once. In the discussion with copper:

How the fuck does that make me a VI?

Your question is irrelevant to any discussion, and is a fucking strawman at best.

The fact that you think hiding RVS from the new players is actually a good thing is just terrible, it may not be alignment indicative, but it's terrible from a newbie game standard, we are in a newbie game, deciding your just going to hide what RVS is, isn't a good thing.

Again, the use of language is striking. There is no simple way to get from what copper was doing that he was

hiding

anything from anyone.

I know the rebuttal is going to be 'headstrong' and this acidity may be a playstyle thing but it's a pattern that I dont like. The only thing giving me real hesitation is I woulnd't expect a bus this game this early and, shock, smoothblue is also a prime target.

SmoothBlue:

Scum. Leaving aside the simple probability, I don't like the tonal changes we see as it goes. The startoff is low content even-keel but as things move, and not as a direct function of 'pressure' on him, you see the tone change to more aggressive and defensive quickly.

A few standouts that have the tonal dissonance:

Now the question is, was your slot a mafia replace out? To answer that, what sticks out to you from the pages that happened before you replaced in?

There was a lot of content to go through, I read most of it last night (Read into other games as well, preparing myself for a game) but I'll need to re-read it all again to ensure I haven't missed anything.

Gideon's defense was very odd considering there was only a couple votes down. He definitely is a new players, but I feel he is milking that "new player card". I'd like to see more content out of him.

Jason was very aggressive on the wall page between him and Copper. I don't believe he had to be that aggressive at that stage and so early on in the game.

Since Toto was on L-2, he really hasn't defended himself very well. I also feel its very difficult to defend yourself, especially if a game has a lot of players tunnelling. His words are not making much sense and he really seems to be trying to push the investigation to another player. It's too early for me to tell his alignment yet.

Copper, the past few days it seems like you've placed yourself as a leader role within the group in my opinion. This is due to the conversation with Jason and then thoughtfully explaining to everyone your reasoning and putting others on the defense. The only thing I dislike about your playstyle right now, is you keep confirming players actions as town actions, which as a leader, is a dangerous thing to do because newer players who wagon agree with you more. If you are town it's an awesome advantage for us. If you are scum you can give that extra shove to town to lynch town players.

I'd like to see more content from Spy.

@Jason, since Copper has voiced his opinion on your alignment after the discussion, what are your thoughts on Copper's alignment?

This is fairly even-handed, although a lot of explaining the 'obvious'. I think it is worth noting that he's referencing Gideon as a 'new' player which is clearly showing that there is experience in this slot. Compare to:

Put on your scum hat for a moment. You want to make sure town get lynched. Usually that is going to require a vote. But,of course especially as a newer player, you're them forced into a fabrication time. You don't want to leave an unjustified vote so you have to give a reason. Ideally, something you can swing away from if necessary.

Something like for pressure.

And talking about the statistics, presuming knowledge, reading games, etc. You would see while in and of itself a vote is a vote the growth of a wagon starts to dictate scum will be on it.

I see your point, but it is almost the weakest point in this entire thread.

Placing people under the gun is a valuable asset as town. "If you don't claim, or defend yourself, you are on the brink of getting eliminated from the game". I think it was stated VERY clear a couple times in the thread that nobody wanted an early lynch. If this had come about nearing the deadline, I would look more into your reasoning, but this early into day 1.... TownCop even stated he was doing it to pressure Toto. We will need to put people on L-2, L-1 more often for information. Toto/Spy, not placing Mafia into these positions gives them free range and makes them much more dangerous. This makes you both look scummy in my eyes.

TownCop may be scum and was hoping some new townie would hammer Toto. Thus putting the pressure onto the new townie for hammering. Giving mafia two quick kills. I do honestly see where you are coming from but I feel it is way too early in the day for that play.

In my opinion, Toto did a brutal job of trying to defend himself and had votes flying everywhere and settled on TownCop. The fact that Spy/Gideon instantly switched their votes based on the above reasoning is quite ridiculous IMO.

So now we see a little warmth. We start running into some hyperbole that I dont like ('toto throwing votes everywhere', 'weakest reason in the thread'). But the biggest part of this exchange that I dont like I comment on:

I haven't moved my vote. Or even voted.

So big ol swing and miss.

I would expect this to cause someone to take a moment to think about how that changes how it plays out, but:

The fact that Spy/Gideon instantly switched their votes based on the above reasoning is quite ridiculous IMO.

I haven't moved my vote. Or even voted.

So big ol swing and miss.

The fact that Spy/Gideon instantly switched their votes/

opinions

based on the above reasoning is quite ridiculous IMO.

Which is one of those implied eyroll statements except for one thing.

I never expressed an opinion on TC before this

. I even asked about it, and while I wasn't going to press it at that point, the fact it was never answered when it's important to comment about more nicknames and the like is not an accident.

I'm fine with this lynch. Today.

Toto:

Town. The more he posts the more I'm confident with that. The excitement for things to move forward could be scum, but assuming this is truly a newbie, then I feel like town at this point.

TownCop:

He's a coinflip. I could see this being smart enough scum not to freak out at the 'reaction' votes. Or, this is town and if I'm wrong about my group of town above it could be Gideon. I like a lot of his thought processes so I may be letting my early dislike cloud my judgement.

The summary:

This group:
Copper
Frank
Gideon
HS
Toto

Lynches this group:
Jason
SmoothBlue
TownCop

There's at least one scum flipped. That should give enough to find the one missing if I'm wrong.

[SpyreX]

The only reason I'm not hammering is that I am trying to make sure to not help bad habits. In general, waiting for the claim is a good idea.

[SpyreX]

Copper do I have Gideon blinders?

And that really reads like if i was scum I'm going to claim town... which is true?

[SpyreX]

See towncop does a good job making me paranoid about gideon again to some extent. A puzzle for tomorrow.

[SpyreX]

@copper reread your exchange on this page. See if you note what i note

[SpyreX]

To be fair he did say activity is lower on the weekends. And we lose nothing by waiting.
That also doesnt mean we need to stagnate.

I'll admit while I'm happy with this lynch, seeing 6 bodies willing including all three experienced bodies makes me worried some. This isn't a slam dunk wagon by any means and an early bus in any of these setups is a high risk maneuver.

So I'd start thinking about what should happen if this is a town flip.

[SpyreX]

There wont be any clears, of course, but it pays to think about now. This shouldn't be a d2 omg i cant believe it start if this is town.

Its been a long time since ive done newbies though so it could all be paranoia and this is just scum

[SpyreX]

To be very clear that would be cop or jailkeeper. And you absolutely should. Otherwise say nothing.

Im calling bs, but the normal procedure would be to do what were doing.

[SpyreX]

Same here.

[SpyreX]

Again if you are one of the above do not say anything. Only the lie

[SpyreX]

Yea. Coppers line of thought is transparently easy to follow.

Assuming this is all on the up and up, which still rankles, I'm ready to go with #2.

VOTE: jason [\b]

[SpyreX]

Wow i screwed that up.

VOTE: Jason

Although my read on gideon is weakening due to some of you, i think he's town

[SpyreX]

I'd also like to make it very clear i wasn't shocked at the pr claim but I'm surprised it's legit.

[SpyreX]

Look, deadline isn't going to kill us, but i prefer not a mad scramble

[SpyreX]

Just as a general note - while we all have real life and other obligations as you start to play more treat the game like a commitment. Replacementitis is something that gets endemic on here and its rude to everyone who was willing to invest.

@toto:
You're not wrong in that I've been a proponent of Gideon town, but i wouldn't say I've defended him. In fact the fact i appear to be in a minority has made me doubt myself some.
It's good to think about associative tells but be very careful on their application. A gideon scum flip would make me a lot 'easier' scum read but a town flip doesnt make me town

Generally speaking i prefer not to ask for extensions but running up someone who cant respond is another one of those non standard plays

[SpyreX]

I'll wait for the discussion. I'm not excited about this, but we don't have enough time for me to dissect the new slot.

I will hammer before i let this go to no lynch

[SpyreX]

See its things like this.

Why would you pull that out of the full context of what i said?

Especially when in full context it is in contrast to what toto said.

[SpyreX]

See i swear. This just feels town to me.

Gideon without a cc as we know the setup there's 0 chance of him being scum.

[SpyreX]

Counter claim. In essence, claim something that is counter to his role

[SpyreX]

So if you look at post one, only a tracker, cop or jailkeepee could work. No gambit could be made here

[SpyreX]

Stupid to eliminate the stronger pr (note you are on the diagnoal) if you are scum? Versus hoping a vt claim keeps you alive?

My saying i was surprised isn't saying lynch you. Once again, in this very page, i said you're clearly town without a cc

[SpyreX]

And when i decided it was time to vote, for real, you'll note i said i would vote for you except its not a great idea to hammer without a claim.

I mean this is not even read between the lines a little stuff

[SpyreX]

Am i being punked?
A1,B2 and C3, the strongest town prs, are on a diagnoal. It is in post 1. Claiming one as scum going down causes the existance of the other to be known. Short of somehow getting it lynched in a cc, it's the most damage a scum on the way down can do.

I fully expected a pr claim because i thought you were scum. I'm shocked it is real. This isn't some kind of deep revelation.

[SpyreX]

Pretty much with hs. I don't trust the activity to swing a different wagon in time alotted.

[SpyreX]

I'd agree with copper. Patience isn't his virtue, but toto feels genuine.

I hope I'm wrong but the whole energy around this feels bad. If we don't see activity soon i will hammer for the reset even though I'm clearly on the record this is gonna be green.

[SpyreX]

Chaos, but as I've said i dont have my hopes up today.

[SpyreX]

I saw that flip and sighed because the logic that lead to it was easy enough to follow, but Gideon please in the future don't do that.

I really want this lynch. Ideally, actually, id like a fast day today.

VOTE: Chaos

All i ask is for a chance to adjust my reads because if hes scum chances are extremely high I die tonight.

[SpyreX]

I was really trying to see how much would change and its not.much. copper would bother me a bit more on a scum.flip here but scum.has no reason to.come.out swinging with all the prs dead.

So if its scum here then... tc and frank probably? Would be my remainders.

Town here is a whole different mess. Then its really buckle down because im very, very doubtful id eat a bullet.

[SpyreX]

I'm pointing out the obvious.
I expect to be killed if this is a scum flip. I expect not to if im wrong.
So, as a function of that, if im wrong I'll be here tomrrow to buckle down.

[SpyreX]

The energy? Well it's the same group that was energetic like before so.. no? Not any change in expectations.

But like i said I'd love to see a fast day. The slow, to a large degree, is the cause for the d1 nonsense.

[SpyreX]

Its fairly common toto. Its the inverse of how everyone was all ready with gideon scum meant me scum

[SpyreX]

Because if i was scum coming out to protect him eliminates a lynch choice in theory.

[SpyreX]

Oh I'm not disagreeing I'm discussing it generally ic sytle.

[SpyreX]

Maybe one other?

I took a long break from the site and i thought coming in and giving back would be a good idea.

Now if the question is how versed am i on the site or with the game itself that's a very different question.

[SpyreX]

Ask whatever you want. I'm here for that.

Frank is a little concerning but i haven't seen anything definitive that it's lurking on purpose. He'd be high on my list tomorrow.

[SpyreX]

No, normally not. Night wouldnt 'count' for that regardless of alignment

[SpyreX]

What do you think of the last question in 132. Is that a towntell or posturing?

That's a great question. I'm really undecided.

[SpyreX]

@copper
The transparency isnt for you. It's for newbies that do things like claim vt as doc

[SpyreX]

I'm glad you brought that one up toto. I think, assuming this lynch ends up town and tomorrow is lynch or lose, frank will really be the decider.

[SpyreX]

If this lynch is scum, then the question is was it scripted to bus? If so more likely hs (that vote that fast surprised me) but I'm not sure.

[SpyreX]

Chaos was on this morning after thread had opened.

[SpyreX]

Also, not to be a dick, but I've played 2 perfect games in a row with close to perfect reads myself so I think I have a good idea how to play and both SB and Gideon played extremely poorly, your implied line of attack on Spyre is unwarranted and that's one of the main reasons I am sticking with the same town-reads as yesterday despite the flips.

I will say I don't think Gideon played that bad. Even the vt claim i can understand even if it was wrong.

SB is a bit different, but even then it wasn't awful, just a little scummy

[SpyreX]

Frank asking as scum is a smart move cause it feels genuine enough it gives me pause

[SpyreX]

Frank asking as scum is a smart move cause it feels genuine enough it gives me pause

Yes, but isn't that just like saying doing

anything towny

as scum is a smart move?

Is not that it's inherently townie. It's the fact it feels genuine. Which contextually would mean hes town.

Its just like gideon on those first pages.

[SpyreX]

So what would make you think I'm taking a leader role this game, especially d1? If you were going to genuinely make those claims, copper was the one that was sold on hs first.

[SpyreX]

Im starting to like towncop

Dig deep on why because in getting a very inverse feeling.

[SpyreX]

It's not that. I really don't care much about that ever.

It's the fact that there's very little actual meat to those posts, especially in relation to today.

[SpyreX]

I was really trying to see how much would change and its not.much. copper would bother me a bit more on a scum.flip here but scum.has no reason to.come.out swinging with all the prs dead.

So if its scum here then... tc and frank probably? Would be my remainders.

Town here is a whole different mess. Then its really buckle down because im very, very doubtful id eat a bullet.

I'm betting heavy on this because otherwise back to the drawring board

[SpyreX]

Then it's back to the drawing board. I give myself doubts about almost everyone. Toto is probably at this moment in town my strongest town read

[SpyreX]

That's the problem I'm facing.

Theres chaos then a huge gap in my reads

[SpyreX]

@human
I'm here to help make sure you understand, but not here to tell you the 'right' way to play. All in all this group is fine though

[SpyreX]

Gideon was really the only misstep. I thought the doc implied rb at a flance so the vt claim made more sense, but that isn't the case

[SpyreX]

The more this goes the more confident i am. Its not an accident the focus

[SpyreX]

I've been reading Chaos in my free time as well, and while it's true that his posting frequency is low regardless of alignment, I am not seeing the same kind of obsessive focus on just one player that he is displaying here (other than his latest post).

I think it is that in conjunction with it just feeling like.arguing. i haven't seen an aha! moment from either direction in the back and forth.

[SpyreX]

Early is relative. The discussion has been fine so far but as it settles we need to not get locked like yesterday.

Yes, a chaos green makes tomorrow tough and no ealy votes in lylo

[SpyreX]

This is what i was afraid would happen.

Chaos assuming you're green who would be your call tomorrow?

[SpyreX]

'Sort of' gives wiggle room. Is can remove options.

Do you think chaos is scum?

[SpyreX]

I've got approaching 0 interest in a non chaos lynch today.

[SpyreX]

My instinctual read from this is it is chaos-frank. The setup for lynching tc under a town flip makes tomorrow easier is setting up for a lylo push on me.

I'm extremely confident on the chaos scum flip and a chaos scumflip here puts too many town in the townpile for a scum win.

Yes, I'm aware if I'm wrong that it's going to be pulling teeth to not get lynched for the loss, but I'm still totally willing to gamble on it.

[SpyreX]

Copper talk to me here i want to make sure I'm not paranoid. Cause that sure reads like tc mislynch 'for information' into a bad tomorrow.

[SpyreX]

I think the paranoia i have really is summed up by him saying yea chaos is probay scum but lets not lynch him today. Even if its tc as a partner, chaos is the right way.

I'm confident in enough town reads that on a chaos scum flip theres one niggler that has me worried. But that's it.

[SpyreX]

Losing both prs d1 is just silly as all getout to hard bus.

I'm betting i dont see you folk tomorrow but if I do if be lynching frank then tc.

[SpyreX]

Excellent showing all! This really showed the importance of being town - the process of elimination pretty much was a nail in the coffin

[SpyreX]

Haha well I've played a few.
I am not the best at finding scum,but I've become fairly good at finding town. It's about feeling what their agenda is

[SpyreX]

Frank you did fine too. Just paranoid after trying to push off chaos even if that's not exactly what you meant

[SpyreX]

This was a great newbie though back to back scum after both prs dead