Newbie 1758 - Symmetry (Game Over)

[Loopdan]

VOTE: Human Sequencer

For scum slipping in the first post.

[Loopdan]

Isn't this your 2nd game, HM?

[Loopdan]

Isn't this your 2nd game, HM?

yeah

Why are asking about how RVS works?

[Loopdan]

@Psyche-- Why aren't you participating in RVS?

[Loopdan]

@Joshz-- Can you find an avatar? It would make it easier to follow the game. Thanks.

[Loopdan]

I'm not setting an avi sorry I've gone over why in my other game bit w.e

Say what huh?

[Loopdan]

VOTE: Sobolev Space

One scum down.

[Loopdan]

@Psyche a couple questions about overall game stuff. I've played f2f a couple times but I feel like online its so easy for scum to emulate town perfectly people really shouldn't be doing better than random chance. Do you have any really clear examples of scumslips from your past games possibly that can help me see what I should be looking for?

Translation:

I'm worried about scum-slipping.

When I played in the past I found I got overly defensive when people accused me of being mafia. Do you have any good suggestions for how a townie (like me ) should react when others are trying to build a wagon on them?

Translation:

I'm worried about not reacting like a townie when I get wagoned.

@Joshz and Human Sequencer. This whole exchange just looks like a misunderstanding. I think Joshz explained how he decides to do RVS voting convincingly (i.e. vote least active people) and the naked vote doesn't look scummy since he wan't actually pushing for a lynch. At the same time questioning the naked vote seems reasonable and I don't really see Sequencer trying to build a wagon on Joshz (at least not yet).

Translation:

I know you both are town and look how townie I am for not accusing either of you.

[Loopdan]

VOTE: Sobolev Space

One scum down.

RVS is over. You don't look very interested in finding scum if your votes don't actually show effort to advance discussion and/or get scum lynched.

For that reason,

vote Loopdan

Given your experience, I'm surprised you find a Day 1 naked vote from an SE player as AI.

Also, you ignored my clarifying post.

[Loopdan]

unvote

missed last post

probably have more of a townread than not from sobolev's questions, though asking them is an easy scum tactic

And I missed this.

[Loopdan]

@loopdan
re: my questions to Psyche
I think I gave pretty good reasons in my post for why I'm asking these questions to the IC. If you don't believe my reasons are legitimate or have questions about them then you should bring those up before trying to establish an ulterior motive. Any question to the IC can be construed as "oh I'm scum and just trying to figure out how to fool town" - I think you have to do a little more work than just saying I

could

have some other motive. Especially since the purpose of these newbie games is to learn and I'm just trying to get up to speed on mafia theory here for future games.

Also with regard to me not wanting to get lynched: everyone has a motive to not get lynched, not just scum. Every mislynch hurts town's win condition

so if I'm town

I'm gonna try just as hard as I can to not get lynched (short of lying), right?

re: my comments on Joshz/Human Sequencer
It was more I wasn't convinced that either of them were acting scummy (for reasons I gave in the post) and didn't want to get the thread derailed with an irrelevant argument when we could be doing more constructive stuff.

@Psyche: Thanks for the comments! I think the stuff about how town should do better than random chance is especially interesting. It seems to come down to a lot of subjective or hard to codify rules which is what got me interested in mafia in the first place.

so if I'm town

SS is pinging me hard.

[Loopdan]

To be clear: I'm not a big fan of catching scum via "scum-slips." Not anymore after seeing town after town "slip" and get mis-lynched. Still, word choice does play into the analysis of whether a player's posts are more likely to come from a town or a scum mindset.

[Loopdan]

@Hellfire

-- Do you have any other logins on this forum? Is so, you should know that alt accounts are not allowed to join Newbie games as newbies (only as replacements).

If it isn't obvious, I think you might be an experienced player who is acting like a super-newbie.

[Loopdan]

must.
refrain.
from.
referencing.
other.
game.

Yeah, I skimmed your other game.

I think this is an act, regardless of your alignment. Your posts are trying to look clueless, but there's enough textual evidence to indicate that you aren't six years old.

[Loopdan]

Sorry. I didn't think saying that I had read an ongoing game was against the rules. I guess I should make clear that my third sentence in 111 is talking about Hellfire's play in this game.

[Loopdan]

Yes. Why do you say y'all if you are from Colorado? J/K. That was a joke about word choice.

I want to know what you think the motivations are for the players that are saying you are scummy. In other words, from your POV are they scum motivated or misguided town?

[Loopdan]

@Psyche-- How would you describe your scum-hunting style?

[Loopdan]

OK. How would others who have played with you a lot describe your scum-hunting style? Also, what do you think about policy lynches in Newbies?

[Loopdan]

policy lynches are bad; it's better to lynch scum

At the risk of derailing the thread... hear me out: I think in certain situations a Day 1 PL is preferred to a lynch based on reads. Day 1 in Newbie games results in mis-lynched town more often than random chance would. In other words, town would lynch scum more often Day 1 if everybody just voted randomly until a lynch was achieved. Town is very bad at Day 1 because scum has a huge information advantage early game. Maybe policy lynching an un-sortable or anti-town player is the way to approach Day 1 in Newbies.

Once my alt account qualifies as an SE, I'm going to /in some Newbie games, try this theory out, and see how quickly that play will get me scum-read.

[Loopdan]

@SS - I'd like to hear what you think about Hellfire Missile. Do you think HM is as newbie as he appears to be?

[Loopdan]

@SS - I'd like to hear what you think about Hellfire Missile. Do you think HM is as newbie as he appears to be?

Haven't looked through their other game and since it sounds like its unfinished I feel like I shouldn't so I can't comment on that discussion. It seems to me like HM has been trying to stay below the radar and pop in every now and then to post newbie sounding posts without a lot of content. I'm not really sure what motive town or scum would have to try to appear newbie when they really aren't though.

I'm not saying that someone faking their "newbieness" is necessarily scum. I once discovered a "newbie" was faking (he alt-slipped in a prior game) and we lynched him for lying about his experience, only to see him flip town.

[Loopdan]

And my role have been replaced 2 times, I think that indeed is a town-tell. JK. But it is a thing to be considered.

Why do you think it should be considered? After consideration, what conclusions do you think we should come to and why?

[Loopdan]

I'm starting to like Snoopy more.

UNVOTE: Sobolev

VOTE: Josh

@Psyche - Why aren't you voting?

[Loopdan]

Unvote
VOTE: howard

Look at his iso. First of all, I take the lack of reply as agreement that my wagon is fucking awful. He is putting an easy vote that feigns involvement and asks 2 mediocre questions. That's it. He's an se, and that's all we have from him? 2 posts and really only 1, which isn't even a good 1? Come on.

I disagree that his questions were mediocre. The game had just started, and nothing had really happened.

I also think your freak-out about being hammered, when you only had two votes on you, could be alignment telling.

[Loopdan]

@Josh-- What did you expect out of the SE players that you haven't experienced?

And you did over-react to the (2) votes on you. Here and here.

[Loopdan]

Josh, you are right that this game is progressing slowly. This is unusually slow for a Newbie game.

[Loopdan]

I haven't even caught up but...

UNVOTE:

[Loopdan]

Loopdan is either town or scum really trying hard to be town, harder than they have to.

This is surprising to read. I am often scumread as town by players unfamiliar with me.

[Loopdan]

Yo HM. This game isn't a puzzle that's made for you to solve. It's a puzzle you have to solve yourself.

There's 10 players here. 2 of them are scum. You know you're town.

Red alert.

[Loopdan]

@Loopdan: Since you are open to D1 policy lynching, who would be your PL now and why?

Only if I don't end up with a strong scum read. PL would be the dude whose faking being new.

[Loopdan]

Out of time. I have more to say but it'll wait until tonight.

[Loopdan]

According to my experiences in mafia games, Scums rarely get replaced and a 2 replacement of a role is rare for scums. So, The conclusion should be I can be said a near-confirmed townie but I dont expect it fully. Just said it.

Scum replaces out of Newbie games all the time. More often than town if a newbie player rolls it. The circumstances of the replace out matters a lot. I see no reason why your slot being replaced twice gives it town-cred.

[Loopdan]

Also, I know I haven't played well, I'm still left completely stumped if im the idiot for not seeing why people scum read me for what to me is nothing, or if you're the idiots. Nothing else at all has happened in this game because a townie became the single tunnels vision focal point of everything, and mafia has no reason the change it so it's just placating on me. I'm not gonna sign up for a newbie game again. A bit of advice to everyone else: psyche is not lock town. Don't assume because he's the IC that he can't still win for scum. He has given just about no game related content, just helped people, which I'm sure those of you who asked for it appreciate but it's NAI. The fact he's produced absolutely nothing makes him slightly scummier in my eyes. I'd recommend town inspect role check him tonight and call him out tomorrow, it's worth outing yourself if he is scum becauss otherwise he's possibly going to steamroll the game, and if he's town don't say anything because you have no need to.

Ok. You are probably town.

[Loopdan]

Maybe Josh is scum, but my reading of him is as a town VI. He doesn't really know how to play, and that leads him to make mistakes, but the emotional content of his posts seems pretty sincere. I believe him when he spitefully calls the people voting him fucking morons for trying to get him lynched. He probably really believes the town is making a dumb mistake right now.

I agree.

[Loopdan]

@Loopdan: Is it really a policy lynch if you believe they are being misleading in a way that is detrimental to the town?

Yes, because I think experienced players faking newbness is probably NAI, yet it is anti-town.

[Loopdan]

he thinks i could be scum because i said 'you know your town'
scum players know the alignment of the rest of the players

that's one of the ways loopdan is trying to find scum

in reality my advice was for reading people, which is irrelevant for scum, so it makes sense i would say that

And here you are assuming I'm town.

[Loopdan]

Loopdan is slightly less suspicious. What stands out to me is mostly the total lack of... emotion? I'm not sure if that's the word, as he isn't apathetic, just cold. That probably isn't alignment indicative, but it's totally foreign and my gut is freaking out about it. He also points out slips somewhat often? Truly, this one is a gut read.
At first, Josh's anger seemed scummy, or NAI at best, but now his activity and recent responses genuinely justify his emotion.

Define "cold." Or maybe better... cite an example from my play this game that you would call cold. I'm not against gut reads, but try and articulate what specifically in my play you think is more likely to come from scum than town.

[Loopdan]

@Psyche/SEs: General theory question. At what point do you think your suspicions of someone should move over to an actual vote on that person? Do you think that you should just always be voting for who you're most suspicious of at the time or do you think that there could be times when you have slight scum reads on a couple people but still aren't voting?

Psyche is the type of player who doesn't vote unless he has a strong scum-read (I think). I often vote whoever is the scummiest at the moment, or even someone who I think might act in an alignment indicative way if pressured by another vote. Different play-styles.

[Loopdan]

@Joshz-- Can you find an avatar? It would make it easier to follow the game. Thanks.

[Loopdan]

@Psyche-- Do you have any reads at all to share at this point?

[Loopdan]

Doesn't me being the only one without an avi make it easy to follow me

No. It makes me not associate your words with an image, which makes it harder to remember what you've said.

[Loopdan]

Did anyone notice how rai was completely confident I was scum ("I will tell you why joshz is scum" along with a post by post analysid) but changed his mind when the wagon was gone?

Yep. And the follow-up post explaining why He isn't giving reasons right now is overly concerned with how players will view his unexplained vote:

UNVOTE: Joshz

VOTE: Human Sequencer

Reasons coming tomorrow, hopefully.


For now, Sequencer Answer this question for me please:
"Why did you think voting someone will make town do something?"

Forgot to mention. Reason for not posting reasons today is because i am going to sleep now. About 10 PM here.

[Loopdan]

if that's scum it's pretty horrible scum tbh

So are you saying you think this makes him less likely scum?

[Loopdan]

According to my experiences in mafia games, Scums rarely get replaced and a 2 replacement of a role is rare for scums. So, The conclusion should be I can be said a near-confirmed townie but I dont expect it fully. Just said it.

Scum replaces out of Newbie games all the time. More often than town if a newbie player rolls it. The circumstances of the replace out matters a lot. I see no reason why your slot being replaced twice gives it town-cred.

Err. I've replaced into a game about 3-5 times in this site and In all those games, I was replaced as a town. And in the other site, Mafias are rarely, i mean very rarely gets replaced.

This is specific to Newbie games:

[Loopdan]

Like I said, the circumstance of the replace out matters a lot. I think yours hints at frustration of being scum "caught for the wrong reason."

VOTE: DayRai

[Loopdan]

If you are town, why do you want me to continue pushing your lynch? Your personal attack only makes me think it's more likely you are scum.

[Loopdan]

You know what? I am Town Cop. Vote me up, idiots.

Do you even know the vote count on you?

If you are town please leave this site and never come back.

[Loopdan]

UNVOTE:

[Loopdan]

@Psyche-- Do you have any reads at all to share at this point?

[Loopdan]

@Psyche-- If town, please explain why you are playing like lurkscum.

[Loopdan]

Psyche has been onsite, posting in non-game threads.

@mod-- Requesting a prod for Psyche.

[Loopdan]

@Locust-- Did you read any of this game prior to receiving your role pm? If so, how much?

[Loopdan]

Id also like to know about your prior Mafia experience, if any.

[Loopdan]

I read the entire thread quickly before signing up.

What role did you think you were replacing into?

[Loopdan]

This is getting ridiculous.
VOTE: Psyche

ok im back

@Xalxe

-- Was Psyche prodded prior to ^this? Your rule-set requires "a game-advancing post" to get off the prod, right?

[Loopdan]

@Loopdan: Still need clarification on that chart.

Stats on 377 Newbie Matrix 6 Games (Updated 2 days ago). Relevant info is under "Spoiler: Replacement stats."

[Loopdan]

@Human Sequencer: What experience with the other players makes you believe that "half of the people in this game are pretending to act like they wouldn't usually"?

i just get the feeling that most of the people here are acting, regardless of scum or not
a lot of posts read contrived to me

Please point these out.

i could get on board w/ a psyche policy lynch

I'd rather he just come back and provide some analysis, but if that doesn't happen, I'd rather lynch an unreadable lurking IC than an inexperienced player.

[Loopdan]

Hm is not as newbie as he is trying to look

Explain.

[Loopdan]

OK. I already said I wasn't buying it based on his language usage.

I thought maybe you'd uncovered incontrovertible evidence.

[Loopdan]

Sigh. I'm up at 3AM doing work might as well check this game. I'm pretty sleep deprived so feel free to ask for clarification if I word anything confusingly or am not making sense.

I guess conciliatory is my natural style. I am more inclined to see town being jittery rather scum malice especially on day one when there is less to go on.

With that said I still had a scum read on you and still have an unanswered question about who you would want to lynch tomorrow if my wagon was successful?

I actually think my style (at least in f2f games I've played) is pretty conciliatory and passive too which is why I'm trying to apply more pressure on people and see how they react this game (we'll see how it works out lol). I think town passivity has been a big problem though and am not sure how we all should address it.

As to your question: if I knew with 100% certainty right now that you were town I would be kinda at a loss for reads (as I am now). I would probably go with some of my gut reads (see below) or want to lynch HM/Psyche for not contributing.

If we lynched you and you flipped scum I could see a convincing argument for Sequencer being your partner.

Out of everyone in the game right now who do you think is the scum team just on gut alone if nothing else?

The past few pages I've actually had a bit of a gut read on Loopdan as scum but I can't see any super scummy posts of his jumping out at me. I'll do a more careful analysis of this tomorrow when I have time to see if my priors are at all justified. Aside from that I think Sequencer leans a bit scum for reasons HR has pointed out. I could see a Loopdan/Jackel scumteam or Sequencer with someone like Psyche or HM. I said above that Joshz is null for me but I really can't see Joshz as a scumbuddy with anyone in the game rn. Again, all of this is just gut so take it with a grain of salt until we have more info.

As of the last vote count we had 5 days left (

@mod is this posted daily, when votes change significantly or just when you have time?

) so still time for Psyche to be replaced or contribute meaningfully. I have my vote there at the moment and would be happy to keep it there if nothing has changed my opinion closer to the deadline. I am not in a super rush to end the day for any reason. Especially with the low activity making hard to read people.

Agree with this 100%. I think we should give Psyche the benefit of the doubt if he starts to make more posts or gets replaced. A day 1 mislynch on the IC slot is basically the best case scenario for scumteam so we should avoid it if we can. Unfortunately, unless Psyche picks up or gets replaced we might have no better option.

Someone remind me to comment on this post after Psyche makes a game-advancing post or is replaced.

[Loopdan]

@Human Sequencer: What experience with the other players makes you believe that "half of the people in this game are pretending to act like they wouldn't usually"?

i just get the feeling that most of the people here are acting, regardless of scum or not
a lot of posts read contrived to me

Please point these out.

^@HumanS

[Loopdan]

We have less than random odds of hitting scum Day 1, so without a strong scum read on anyone, I'd like to lynch either HM or Psyche. Both are anti-town and it will be difficult to sort their alignments on future Days if they continue to play like this.

[Loopdan]

UNVOTE:

That moved too quickly.

[Loopdan]

@Joshz-- Please explain how locust is guaranteed town.

[Loopdan]

@Hellfire-- Is your case on Josh just that he is using too many question marks and that he cited "gut" as the reason for reads? If there is more to it than that, then explain.

Also, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you won't be the NK, Hellfire.

[Loopdan]

@HM-- Why do you think him giving up is more likely to come from a scum point of view than a town point of view?

[Loopdan]

@Xalxe

-- Requesting a Day 1 deadline extension if our IC is replaced. Thank you.

If Psyche is town, he probably shouldn't be allowed to IC.

[Loopdan]

I'm asking town to stop getting walked on

You keep talking like you are the only sighted person in a group of blind men.

So who are the two scum?

[Loopdan]

All I'm saying is we should give Psyche the chance to explain himself or get replaced before lynching him.

Nobody has said anything contrary.

Lynch 'em
Psyche
HM
Locust

You do realize Locust's predecessor (DayRai) claimed cop, right? We are not lynching Locust Today.

[Loopdan]

@Locust-- We are pretty much mind-melding here. I could get behind a HumSeq or SS lynch Today, depending on what happens with Psyche's replacement.

[Loopdan]

I'd like a HuSeq or Sobolev lynch, but I'll go re-read Jackel98. He honestly hasn't made much of an impression.

VOTE: Sobolev

[Loopdan]

Re-read on Jackel

217 is his first content post. Scum reads DayRai and kinda sets up a gut scum read on me, while also pointing out some NAI stuff. This could be scum setting a read change for later.
The tables in 247-249 look try-hard but the content is pretty much NAI.
I don't like 261. I think this post is more likely to come from scum trying to appear town, than town trying to determine if DayRai is actually the claimed PR or not.
374 - Moves vote to Sobolev because "Locust has brought a town feeling to the slot." I don't like this read change. Imagine town!Jackel is scumreading DayRai, who then claims cop. He expresses skepticism about the claim and leaves his vote on DayRai. Then the replacement player (Locust) comes in. All Jackel says is, "Welcome, Locust. I'm scumreading your slot pretty hard." And that's it. No posts asking anything of Locust. Then Jackel moves his vote off Locust. Why? Because Locust "brought a town feeling to the slot."

I'm not buying it.

VOTE: Jackel

[Loopdan]

Forgot to say in my last post that I'm V/LA today and tomorrow due to the holiday.

[Loopdan]

@Mod-- Requesting VC

@Huntress-- We need input from you before deadline.

[Loopdan]

UNVOTE: until Huntress posts reads.

[Loopdan]

@Jackel-- Now would be a good time to address any of the concerns outlined below:

Re-read on Jackel

217 is his first content post. Scum reads DayRai and kinda sets up a gut scum read on me, while also pointing out some NAI stuff. This could be scum setting a read change for later.
The tables in 247-249 look try-hard but the content is pretty much NAI.
I don't like 261. I think this post is more likely to come from scum trying to appear town, than town trying to determine if DayRai is actually the claimed PR or not.
374 - Moves vote to Sobolev because "Locust has brought a town feeling to the slot." I don't like this read change. Imagine town!Jackel is scumreading DayRai, who then claims cop. He expresses skepticism about the claim and leaves his vote on DayRai. Then the replacement player (Locust) comes in. All Jackel says is, "Welcome, Locust. I'm scumreading your slot pretty hard." And that's it. No posts asking anything of Locust. Then Jackel moves his vote off Locust. Why? Because Locust "brought a town feeling to the slot."

I'm not buying it.

VOTE: Jackel

[Loopdan]

@Mod

-- Please prod the following:

Sobolev Space

2 days 4 hours

Xalxe

2 days 13 hours

Hellfire Missile

3 days 6 hours

Jackel98

4 days 6 hours

Apologies if any of these announced V/LA's, but we are approaching deadline.

[Loopdan]

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-11-28 08:47:44)

[Loopdan]

VOTE: Jackel

L-1

Claim your role.

[Loopdan]

If you were town cop who would you investigate.

Huntress

[Loopdan]

See, I thought Josh was a doctor. I guess he just doesn't know how to read tables.

What does this I don't even?

[Loopdan]

@howard
i'm 80% sure rai was trolling, scumJackel would be way too worried of people picking up what you just did. he'd at least mention rai's claim i assume

He did...

I'm the town tracker. One reason why I kept my vote on Daya/Locust after his claim.

But that's kind of irrelevant. All that matters is that if Jackel flips TT then we auto-lynch Locust Day 2.

[Loopdan]

I want to hear what Huntress, Howard and Loopdan have to say, first.

The hammer is down, but if you are here and want to chat twilight, I'm here for a couple more minutes.

[Loopdan]

See, I thought Josh was a doctor. I guess he just doesn't know how to read tables.

What does this I don't even?

I think he's saying that he claimed tracker because he thought Joshz was doctor so it would be consistent with the setup (from Joshz's viewpoint) which would give his claim credibility but instead Locust came in and busted him.

Yeah, your explanation makes no more sense to me than whatever Jackel was saying.

Also, do y'all know how long we get for twilight period or naw?

Mod will lock when they're here. There is no set time. We can talk until then.

[Loopdan]

@Jackel-- You do realize you've been lynched, right?

[Loopdan]

So you're flipping scum, right?

If not why are you talking about "if I was cop" when you've already claimed Tracker?

[Loopdan]

Bah!!!!!

@mod-- can you PM me a link to the dead thread?

[Loopdan]

It was kinda obvious at this point, but that's probably why I was NK'ed a long time ago...

Living Players

Sobolev Space
Hellfire Missile
HowardRoark (SE)

GG scum.

@Xalxe- Thanks for modding. You kept up with things and stayed in the background like a good mod, but the lack of a dead thread was disappointing.