Newbie 1781 - Game over

[EccentricLemon]

Hey hey hey, discriminating against fruits is not allowed. Some of us are very nice people.

VOTE: Creature that avatar really gives me the creeps for some reason.

[EccentricLemon]

Not all lemons are villains.

[EccentricLemon]

I suppose I've got one of those faces.

[EccentricLemon]

I'm going to second that. Although I disagree that a scumread this early in the game can be that definite.

[EccentricLemon]

Lets discuss it then.

[EccentricLemon]

But you said you knew who scum was before that post. I'd prefer to hear that before discussing 42.

[EccentricLemon]

Why was he your scumread before 42?

[EccentricLemon]

I prefer not to trust early claims but I really don't see how you could scumread Fykus that early either. To be completely honest, I feel like calling someone out after a page and a half of pretty insubstantial dialogue seems scummier than the BT claim.
Something/someone DID have to set the ball rolling I suppose. (For future posts--I'm not great with the whole putting my ideas in words thing, so if I confuse you or I say something really weird, don't be afraid to call me out on it and I'll try my best to explain)

[EccentricLemon]

I've only ever played one other game, which is over by now so you can read it. If you read it, you can see that I had precisely the same problem I warned you about. I had trouble expressing what I meant and I was repeatedly getting run up as scum even though I was town. I appreciate that the wagon disappeared but I still don't like the speed with which Accountant rallied one and subsequently dropped it.

Spoiler:

^ fencesitting/setting the stage to either push a wagon on Creature or townread him depending on how the game goes.

Sooooo I'm not supposed to ever have a read on Creature?

>not voting lemon

Are you scum, rb?

Yeah we're out of RVS, EccentricLemon claimed scum so we're lynching them, you should join the wagon

Destro, I'd like to hear why you vote hopped from lemon to creature, and why you joined the lemon wagon in the first place.

Also I'm not one-shot bulletproof.

The claim strategy is laid out here in game 1775 by RadiantCowbells, if you don't know what we're doing:
So, over the last few months while I was not playing Mafia I have been working on strategies to up town's winrate in this setup and since I have finally rolled town I am going to put them into action.
The correct play at the beginning of D1 in this setup is for the 1-Shot Bulletproof, if any, to claim. This helps town immensely in numerous setups. Why am I advocating this?

1) It is fucking insane for scum to try to claim 1-shot BP in this situation. It is an insane risk play which forces a 1v1 in 5/6 setups and gets minor towncred in 1/6.
2) If the setup is Roleblocker/Jailkeeper/1-Shot BP, it's easy for the BP claim to be disbelieved. The claim coming at the start of the game makes it far more trustworthy.
3) If the setup is Tracker/1-Shot BP/Goon, the Tracker knows that there is no doc and can be a lot safer on claiming. Note that mathematically the correct play is to target the outed tracker if the other PR is not known; so little potential gain is made here.
4) If the setup is Tracker/Doc/Goon, a living tracker will know by the lack of a BP claim that there is a doctor. He can then claim safely and be doctor protected the entire game. Which sucks because I'm going to get guaranteed nightkilled but I'll get over it.

Since the 1-Shot Bulletproof doesn't actually net town a mislynch by being hit it is not actually specifically valuable for it to bait the hit.
This does come at the cost of narrowing down the game possibilities for scum: but I believe that the reward is well worth the price.

lol, Accountant said Lemons claimed scum, and I assumed I missed that post:facepalm:
Then I reread the thread, and came to the conclusion Creature is scum. Reread it yourself, focus on Creature

We found Lemons' scumbuddy.

If you need to intimidate players into following your wagon, your wagon isn't valid. How is this different from you accusing me of leaving a reason to come back to Creature? You just left a completely arbitrary reason to come back to Destro for disagreeing with you.

All that said, I think Accountant is just overeager town thus far (weak townread).

It would be nice though if people didn't wait for people to ask why they scumread someone and just explain it in the same post. It just makes it easier to read.

While I appreciate the speed with which the game is progressing, I think that we're being a bit too spontaneous with the accusations.

[EccentricLemon]

What's wrong with wagons being fast? If the goal is to lynch scum, isn't the thing that matters that we're hitting scum?

I agree that the thing that matters is that we hit scum but it's important to realize I think that this is a newbie game and we gotta a) take it easy and b) realize that straight out of the gate even townie newbs can sound scummy. I'm not really talking about myself, I've already played one game. Plus, we've got a lot of time left. I don't think now is the time to be spontaneous.

[EccentricLemon]

What's wrong with wagons being fast? If the goal is to lynch scum, isn't the thing that matters that we're hitting scum?

Fast wagons at the beginning of a newb game don't solve anything, but create more problems. Now that the game's picked up a bit, I'm way more open to wagoning.

lemons will be another one of those RVS tunnels that turn out to be right. dude felt off really early, hasn't felt not-off and i'm like scarred for life for not lynching gameplay in the Normal you ran, where I thought to myself, "na, it's probably unlikely that I caught scum on page1" but really i caught scum on page1.

i catch scum on page1 enough times that i'm fairly sure it's not a fluke.

Why didn't you point this out p1 or 2 or 3 then? Why wait all the way until p7?
______

And why are you still on creature? @lemon

Because I just never moved my vote. I didn't see a reason to. Not because I think he's scum but because it's just left over from the RV stage and nothing else has particularly caught my attention yet.
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@Lemon: How do you feel about Destro?

I'm wary about Destro. I don't want to accuse him of being scum just yet but I don't like the way his vote jumps around here:

Spoiler:

Sorry, I forgot.
VOTE: EccentricLemons
I've skimmed over the thread, will post my reads tomorrow:)

Will reread the thread in 1hr, something I had to do was just done by someone else lol

VOTE: Creature
*sigh*
When you can't find an avi

@accountant, there is absolutely NOTHING of the SLIGHTEST value. Look for yourself

He's very vague and I don't like that. To me it seems like he's trying to contribute but he's failing to provide anything of substance. It seems newbscum to me but I want to see more of him now that the game has picked up a bit before I make a decision. I've never been in a game with a newbscum before, so I'm just speculating.
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@Tarkus: Disagree wrt they can't be partners. The way I see it, Destro saw his partner was pushing a counterwagon on Creature and followed up.

Idk, that just doesn't seem right to me. I don't think lemon was pushing that hard. But I'm open to the idea.

Might I remind you that the post was this:

Hey hey hey, discriminating against fruits is not allowed. Some of us are very nice people.

VOTE: Creature that avatar really gives me the creeps for some reason.

And I haven't mentioned Creature again since then? Also that Destro doesn't vote Creature until #96? You can't call this a wagon by any stretch of the imagination.

On the other hand, Lemon is betraying my trust by giving them a townread after snarling at them so hard. Still don't want to lynch her though.

Just because I don't like the way they play, doesn't mean I should immediately consider them scum. I am aware of how the way Accountant plays can be very towny. Still not ruling out the possibility that she's scum, but definitely one of my stronger townreads.
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Hi. Catching up now, posting as I go.

That seems like a pretty weak reason considering how cautious you were in bringing it out, but I think I might get why you did it that way. What do you think about his response?

To me, it sounds a bit like someone worried about being called out and scumread by you. Bringing up the 1-shot BP claim strategy in that moment feels weird to me, when "who is the scum" should've been the obvious first response.

Eight minutes between these two posts. Don't like it. It's like you tacked the bottom on because you thought it'd looked better, and it doesn't sound genuine either.

VOTE: Tarkus

That’s a stretch. I just wanted to add my thoughts on it. If you think following up on my own posts is scummy, you’ll be reading me wrong all game.

I don't think it's a stretch, since it wasn't clear what your intention was. It can definitely be interpreted as a scum slip.
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On the other hand, Lemon is betraying my trust by giving them a townread after snarling at them so hard. Still don't want to lynch her though.

you said earlier that you don't want to lynch lemons because you don't see why people SR them - now that you've identified an actual piece of scummy behavior, what's keeping ou reluctant about the lemon wagon?

Accountant, why are you so concerned about Sagittarius townreading me?
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Sorry for the wall of text haha. I apologize for not posting much, I've got lots of stuff going on in terms of school.
Not BP either by the way.

[EccentricLemon]

My apologies for using the wrong pronoun Accountant.

[EccentricLemon]

Not really, no. If I was actually scumreading him, I would have continued with it. I admit it was a bit of an erroneous statement on my part that I never referred to Creature again.

[EccentricLemon]

I stand by my statement that that is not a wagon.

[EccentricLemon]

I'll unvote him if you're so bothered by it. It doesn't matter either way for me.

UNVOTE: Creature

[EccentricLemon]

I don't necessarily agree that it's right to go after rb for not supporting the BP claim thing. He's the IC, and the IC my last game tried their best to remain neutral and not get in the way of people trying different strategies. So he might not approve but not want to interfere. Idk if it's a universal IC thing or if it's just the one I happened to have. In any case, I want him to comment on it because there isn't much about it in his ISO. Personally, if I were to scumread him, it would be because of his complete certainty of players' alignments. Even being a seasoned player and the ISO doesn't excuse that kind of certainty in my book.

I keep getting confused between Tarkus and Fykus haha, they sound so similar.

What are everyone's thoughts on the tarkus vs Sagittarius debate?

I agree that it's most likely town v. town. Neither of them strike me as scum, really. I think Tarkus' questions are very valid and constructive and Sagittarius' analysis is pretty thought out.

I'd like a claim from you three on your next posts please or I'll start voting as if a non claim is an admission of being scum.

Not really a fan of this take-charge attitude or the missed statement in my post. Even if Fykus just skimmed my post, my not BP claim was the last thing in the post, so it wasn't hard to miss. I agree it was a bit long and dreary, but especially if he's so concerned with the whole BP claim thing he should at least be skimming posts for that. What I'm trying to say is I don't like how this means or at least makes it seem that Fykus didn't read that post, which he should have expected was going to answer to a lot of statements made toward me at a time when my play was under scrutiny.

[EccentricLemon]

Dammit, in that last sentence in the first paragraph, that should be IC and not ISO.

[EccentricLemon]

VOTE: 270 is the scummiest post I have read in a long long time. I'm not moving my vote off of rb until he claims, but that was terrible.

So what makes it terrible?

[EccentricLemon]

It's alright, Fykus. I didn't mean to come off as so confrontational. I understand.

[EccentricLemon]

It was just a vote left over from the RV stage. I'd honestly completely forgotten about it. When I was reminded of it, I decided not to move my vote. I think I've made it pretty clear at this point that I'm in no way pushing anything on Creature, nor is anyone else. I admit I was a bit rude and that was uncalled for.

[EccentricLemon]

Is what gave me the scumread on lemon/rb. Basically lemon posts this as we're pressuring rb for a BP claim

Don't put words in my mouth, you were talking about the fact that rb won't say whether he agrees with the idea of

doing

BP claims, and apparently not agreeing was a problem:

Just a little offshoot of this thought - I find it curious that rb was kind of against the BP claim at the beginning and then never confirmed or denied if they are BP or not (considering the fact that our IC would have to be experienced in mafia and would thus know the advantages of this strategy).

I don't necessarily agree that it's right to go after rb for not supporting the BP claim thing.

Which is what I was talking about. I snarled at you for missing a part of my post and you come back with this?
Also: what kind of question is

Are you mafia?

Do you really expect them to answer "yes, I am mafia, please lynch me"?

I have to go

V/LA

for a bit, I have a theory that Sagittarius or rb are scum but probably not both and I'll try to explain why with a longer post. It's less of what they're saying and more of a scum-town dynamic that I'm seeing. Brace yourselves for another confusing as hell post from yours truly.

I don't like Creature's lack of substance and rare posts but I'm reluctant to read him as scum because I've seen town do that before.

[EccentricLemon]

V/LA

by the way please. I don't know if that was apparent or not.

[EccentricLemon]

I apologize profusely for my disappearance at the end of the game. There was a lot that was going on irl and I thought it all started winding down so I started a game. I genuinely did expect to come back after my last post and explain but I was not able to. I was going to ask to be replaced out once this day started but you bunch ended before I got home today haha. Thanks for dealing with me not being completely present, guys. Good game and good luck to you guys in your next game.