Newbie 552: Concluded

[fat_hampster]

Ok, hello everyone.
Its my first ever mafia game btw, Though I have read through one game that's almost finished. Just thought I'd say.

@ Mr_Gnome_It_All
Misspelling of hamster assumes that I was trying to spell hamster in the first place, and that my reason for choosing hampster has any relevance to hamsters.

anyway:

vote: Mr_Gnome_It_All

for making wild assumptions.

[fat_hampster]

yeah, two days = weekend. I will not be very active over the weekend I am afraid as I am usually out playing or watching football (soccer), or just out.

Hope that is not too much of a problem to the game?

Think this effected my last game as I was lynched in the first week as they had said they would give me time to "explain" myself, but this happened over the weekend so I didn't see this till the Monday when I was lynched :0

You from England too then? (purely based on your use of football rather than soccer primarily).

I'm guessing most other people are from America?

anyway some

highly

suspicious behaviour going on from everyone

anyway, Don't really have anything to say here. Out of interest, to anyone who has played other Mafia games, How long does it normally take for information that you can actually tell something from starts to appear?

[fat_hampster]

Just out of curiosity, can I ask you to tell us what suspiscious behavior you see going on. I would like to see what exactly you find suspiscious rather than generalize "oh everyone is suspiscious" ... LOL.

I was basically joking, hence the emphasis on highly, and the . Sorry if that didn't come through. I don't find any of the behaviour particularly suspicious. There are things that I

could

consider as suspicious on every player (i.e. I could choose any player and point out things which *might* point to Mafia behaviour, but probably don't), however they are more than likely not pointing to a Mafia (6 other people, 2 of which are Mafia) and they are arguments that I wouldn't really believe. They are more like reasons to cite when randomly voting.

that probably doesn't really explain what I mean but whatever.

@ Dudester: Scottish then. that's cool.

haven't really got anything else to add I don't think.

[fat_hampster]

You make no sense whatsoever. You say your highly suspiscious of everyone--for what purpose exactly?? ... A joke? Please explain how that is funny.

I wasn't really thinking about it when I posted (I didn't realise anyone would be examining it so closely). I just used some Irony (ironic given that I didn't really find any behaviour incredibly suspicious, but I think I talk about this more in my last post), cause I didn't really no what to say, and its something that I use in normal conversation. I appreciate that it can be hard to get meanings through posts due to lack of inflection in speech, however I had thought I made it clear through the emphasis and tongue sticking out smiley. I believe what the misunderstanding has come through is the different use of language in real life, due to any number of factors. I hope you can understand this, otherwise you will just have to use it as a reason to lynch me.

Clayman--first he FOS (and I completely agree with Dudester that he didn't wanna look suspiscios by voting so he FOSed instead, etc.)

And clayman didn't comment on hamster's last post.

OMG! OMG! He didn't comment on my post which was actually entirely directed at him in its totality. In fact

Super God King -- If you do not question things then you are simply a puppet.

Holy Cow! You haven't commented on the post directly above you in this instance, which has just as much relevance to you as mine was to him. You must be scum! There is no other possible explanation.

In fact S*** I haven't talked about the post directly above mine by Super God King, that implies that I must be scum!!! whew, saved by the sentence were I condemn myself. How Ironic.


Also I think you will find that it's

hampster's

not hamster's. notice the p. I realise that this was probably just a typo or was otherwise unconscious, I only mention it on the chance that it was a conscious decision.*

Clayman and fat_hampster is scum together, is my current thinking. I wanna hear from everyone else though.

Can I inquire as to how saying "Clayman and fat_hampster

is

scum" (emphasis mine) Is any better than a finger of suspicion. If anything it's worse, as it can be argued that it draws less suspicion as it is less real, however it is stronger, as you are saying that you believe we

are

Mafia, rather than that we are suspicious. Maybe FoS has some holy attachment to it, but to me as a new player it is just a phrase. It is highly probable that clayman feels the same way, given that this is his first game here (according to his posts anyway). If this is the case then it is highly likely that he just uses FoSs more liberally than you.

I can't see how you can have gotten such definite views on who was scum so early, when everything I have seen can easily be explained by logical and sensible explanations, and can thus be attributes of either pro town or pro scum play. Personally I would need multiple citations of suspicious behaviour before I would be able to put forward a accusation such as yours. I know you say that this is you're current opinion, however the phrasing of you're statement seems to me to indicate a very strong opinion in this way. I realise that you and I use different language, so I am willing to put this down to this if you desire.

There is also the possibility that you're post was designed to evoke more information from me and/or clayman and/or others to broaden you're picture of suspicion. In which case you have been successful at least in my case, given that the information I have put forward was written with the knowledge that this was possible, however I have answered from the assumption that this was false, as I could not really answer any other way.

I'm going to go to bed now, so I apologise for any mistakes in the above (primarily with forum code mistakes). If there are mistakes of any kind, then I put them down to tiredness, as I am too tired to check for mistakes. Goodnight.

*BTW if anyone wants to shorten my name for speed, then I don't mind. hampster has been used, which is fine, the quickest is probably just calling me 'fat', which is also fine, however I'm not particularly bothered with whatever, though consistency would be preferable.

****Disclaimer**** Not everything in this post should be taken for literal truth ****Disclaimer****

[fat_hampster]

Just wanted to add:
Blackberry: do you mind if I enquire as to how my actions make me scum. I can understand the point that what I said might have seemed strange. However, saying/doing something strange is only suspicious if it is something which could be advantageous to a Mafia team player. I don't see how a mafia player could get any conceivable advantage out of what I said, so therefore I fail to see how it is a tell (strange behaviour that does not help/hinder a particular team can not be considered a tell, as either team is just as likely to do it).
Please can you enlighten me as to the simple piece of information that I am obviously missing.

[fat_hampster]

On the other hand, fat_hampster's defense is kinda too emotional for a day 1, and wordy, and a double post.

Yeah, maybe. To me, though most of his post comes off as tired psychobabble.

It was probably a bit emotional, I was a bit frustrated that I had explained myself, in what I saw as a reasonable way. The tiredness also probably didn't help, though I'm not sure I would classify it completely as psycho babble, however I haven't read it since I wrote it, so it could be worse then I remember it. In terms of wordiness and double post. I like to try to explain myself properly (often unsuccessfully) which sometimes means a long post, and I just thought of an extra point which, being a question, would elicit a direct response (or raise questions of why it wasn't being answered). (and no editing)

However It seems that it was unnecessary of me to make such a long argument, as everyone seems to have been able to see the flaws in Blackberry's argument. At least it seems to have moved the conversation on a bit though (I don't claim that that was intentional (at least from my side) and most credit should go to Blackberry, however it was a helpful side effect).

Also before I forget:

unvote

I don't think Mr Gnome (do you mind that or would you rather a different shortening, or do you want me to use your full (user)name?) is particularly suspicious atm.

I have some suspicions, but I would like to hear some more from everyone before I voice them, as I don't feel I've heard enough from anyone to form anything very strong.

[fat_hampster]

There's been a (relatively) lot of back and forth between Blackberry and springlullaby, so I thought I'd have a say on things.

Firstly, after re-reading my long post, it doesn't seem as emotional as people make out, The sarcasm in the middle could be seen to be emotional, however that's just a side effect of it being sarcasm. However my post immediately after does seem very mixed up, and I didn't get through my meaning properly. However I would still like to know from Blackberry, why my initial post was scum behaviour?
I would also like to hear a proper response to my post, as It was primarily directed at you. You seemed to dodge it by saying that you needed more time to read it, which may well have been true, however you have not proceeded to post anything about it (which almost everyone else did, despite it not being directed at them). I assume you have read it now, given that you are voting for me, however you still haven't commented on it, which could be conceived as dodging the points.

I'm not totally convinced by springlullaby's vote on Blackberry.
the SGK vote was random, so I don't have a problem with that, and it doesn't seem unreasonable that he voted Mr Gnome to get him to post, so it is possible that he just uses his vote more liberally than I would. He also gives a better description of his reasons later. (the difference between what seems like not voting, to posting a lot and not voting, to making lots of accusations and not voting).

Blackberry also seems quite suspicious to me, for making bold accusations without a lot of evidence. However I am wary because he is mainly attacking of me, and I therefore may be biased. Still, putting his accusation of me aside, his accusation of clayman was on the basis that he did not respond to one of my posts (and that I was scum). I have a problem with this because, not only was his suspicion of me not guaranteed (he can't know whether I am scum or town at this stage unless he himself is scum, no matter how strong the evidence, It can all be explained away) but also because, even If I was guaranteed scum, my post had little to no relevance to clayman, and therefore did not warrant a response.
He also seemed to basically comply with springlullaby when (he/she)? gave some form of decent evidence to back up his/her claim, though I don't know if that can be considered scummy, my instinct tells me it is, but then it seems like something a townie could do as well, so I don't really know. Plus I am again worried that I am biased due to his vote on me, so I don't really know if it can be considered as suspicious.

I am also wary of my suspicions, because I realise that over the last couple of days, posts have been dominated by Blackberry, and springlullaby, so I do not really have much evidence to go on for any other players. With that in mind, I would really like to hear some more from, Super god king, clayman, Dudester, and Mr Gnome. (in order of earliest last post = suspcious for not posting.) Though I realise that I didn't post for a while, and the conversation hasn't been that relevant to them, so I am posting this to try to get them back into the conversation.

[fat_hampster]

24+ hours without a post means it's deadline time. We'll set it for

5 p.m. EST Wednesday, February 13

(a bit more than one week from this post).

Here's how it works: when the deadline hits, night falls regardless of whether players have reached a majority decision. Player with most votes at deadline will hang. Usually mods require there be at least half the usual number of votes...in this case, however, I'll require at least 3 votes. If there's a tie for three votes, whichever player got there first is the lucky winner of a noose 'round the neck. If no player has at least 3 votes, everyone keeps breathing, though night will still fall. If a majority decision is reached before deadline, night will fall as usual.

Got it?

Looks like we are going to have to step up the speed if we are going to make a decision before deadline.

with that in mind, hear are my thoughts on what has happened since my last post.

I don't really know what to make of blackberry's post, his change around seems quite sudden, but makes sense if my post did convince him that I was not necessarily scum. I can see that my statement could be perceived as scummy if it wasn't taken as ironic, so I will put that down to differing common uses of language. So you do more or less answer the question. I am a little worried that you didn't read my post, as I think making a decision on who you think is scum with out using all the information at you're disposable is not the best idea, even if you are scum, and so don't need information reading posts gives extra ammunition that you can use to get someone lynched.

I also agree somewhat with SGK, that you do appear to be doing what people want, though that could be coincidental. Also I didn't actually complain about the vote on me, plus putting a vote on me isn't something which would exactly make me pleased, so it could actually just be a genuine change of opinion. there's nothing wrong with being pragmatic. Overall I am still suspicious of blackberry, though less so now that I better understand the reasons for voting me before.

I don't really like clayman's post. I don't agree with blackberry's argument that a) SGK is going for an easy lynch necessarily, and b) that going for an easy lynch is scummy, as going for a highly suspect player is not scummy. however I don't find this intrinsically scummy.

However clayman also agrees with him, which could just be genuine agreement, or could be an excuse to try to put suspicions or others, (either could be true).

My biggest problem with the post though, is that it seems like an excuse to vote without drawing attention. It allows him to leave his vote on SGK without people questioning whether a random vote is suitable. It also allows him to vote SGK without drawing attention to himself if people were to look back at this from later. Of course this could just be me seeing things that aren't there. Still I would have preferred an unvote, vote: x if he wanted to keep his random vote. I think I've explained it badly above, so if you want me to try to explain it better then just ask.

I also agree with SGK's second post.

and Dudester's post contained no useful content so I can't really comment on it.

anything anyone wants to ask me. I'll try to post quite regularly until the deadline, even if it is quite short. I would still like to hear more from people, especially Dudester before I vote, because as I talked about above, I don't want to vote with less information than I could have.

[fat_hampster]

We only have a week, which isn't a huge amount of time, so I'm posting now rather than waiting for some more replies which I would normally do. Hopefully we can get some decent conversation going before deadline.

Unvote

I wanted to wait until everyone posted after my last post to comment, but since that doesn't seem to be happening and that we have a deadline I'll just do it now.

First, I have to say that upon reading the reaction to my votes history, I realized how I may have looked too eager to vote to people. Thing is, I have only played in 20 players mafia games before and didn't realize that the vote limit to lynch was so close on a day one. In the mafias I've played, voting for people when they have only a few vote on day one is like just making sure that they will reply.


Now, my thoughts about the game.

- I have mixed feelings about Blackberry.
*On one hand I see now how my reasoning on people who don't vote while they post a lot and accuse people is null because the configuration of the game. A townie may not want to vote until he is sure because the lynch limit is only 4 votes. Plus I kind of agree with the last assessment he posted on fat_hampster. (The bit where he said he didn't read fat's post doesn't worry me, when I had to reread that post, it gave me an headache (sorry fat .)
*On the other hand, I still don't like his reply to me. I can appreciate what he said about tunnel vision, but he still failed to explain what I pointed out: deforming my words and accusing me of accusing people when I did not.

Don't really see anything to add to that. I think that voting people does have advantages in getting people to reply, and can see that you could be more used to voting more. on the other hand it could be an excuse to get yourself out of a hole. It sounds reasonable to me though, so I basically believe you.

I'm sorry about the long posts, (I can't really help it, Its just how I type). However, I really think that not reading all the information given, even if only once is not great. It's not that the post is even that long, but then I'm used to longer post probably so w/e.

- On fat_hampster. I like the way he actually takes time to analyze the game, and his kinda long winded (again, sorry fat) writing style seem to be consistent so far - although he hasn't posted outside of this thread so it can't be verified. What I don't like is that everything he says in them is very mild. Especially in his last post, I can't shake the impression that for all the words he used, he hasn't taken a discernible stance.

Not much to say on the first part.
I agree completely that everything I say is mild. and you're right that I haven't really taken a discernible stance. I find it very hard to take a strong stance, when the evidence to my eyes doesn't paint anyone as conclusively scummy. In my mind, I think that something is scummy, and then I think of all the possible other reasons that it could be. I am probably over cautious, I will try to have stronger opinions, but I find it quite hard. It also doesn't help when I have heard really very little from most of the players.

- On SGK. He basically agreed with me with me with his vote, so I'm kinda relieved to see someone who does finally. But the fact that he actually failed to point out what I found most suspicious about Blackberry makes me a little worried.


- On clayman, dudester and Mr Gnome. Err dunno what to say, there is little to nothing to comment on. Please post more. (In fact, I'm kinda itching to vote for one you right now for not posting but I really don't want to appear more suspicious than I already do.)

not much to say about SGK.
and pretty much agree with you on the minimal posters. I really hope that they will post some more before the deadline.

So conclusion:

- Blackberry is still the one I'm the most suspicious of and if nothing new comes up I will vote him.

Blackberry, why did you deform my words and accused me of accusing people, and why did you not explain it after I pointed it out?

- I also find the three most silent ones very suspicious and I would really appreciate more participation.

mostly agree. Not much to add.

I also don't really have anything to say about SGK's post.

we really do need some more input from some other people. The more information they put forward, the better able we are to form opinions, which is good from a town POV, because random guessing isn't brilliant. So come on guys, get some posts in.

[fat_hampster]

fat hampster- you know you don't have to address every post. Some really don't need any more comments. Just a tip, not really germane to the game.

Yeah, I know. But their was things that were relevant in springlullabies post to me, so I wanted to comment on it, I probably should have wrote that post differently, but w/e.
as for the following posts, I believe that they are relevant, which is why I'm replying.


@ Boggzie: Hello, welcome to the game.


@ clayman: You're probably right that I'm seeing something where there isn't anything. Just on reading you're post, that's what struck me, and I immediately didn't like it.

I agree with boggzie and clayman that their isn't any highly suspicious activity, and this is why I haven't made any strong accusations. I have been trying to analyse things to try to work out who seems suspect, but there isn't a whole lot.

[fat_hampster]

Some interesting stuff has happened.

I'm not going to comment on all of it now.

However I will just say that their is a Mafia roleblocker, so we would be unlikely to get a investigation if you did claim cop.
It shouldn't effect you claiming if you are otherwise going to get lynched. but I just thought I would make that point.

I also think that it's bad that you have not made a defence for yourself. Especially as it complies with Boggzie's analysis that you aren't putting any information forward about yourself. Also if you are scum, then falsely claiming doc or cop basically guarantees you will get lynched, as a townie will counter-claim (or should anyway). It would also explain why you don't want to claim vanilla townie, as it is unlikely that someone is going to lynch you before Wednesday, so you want to have an opportunity to try and worm yourself out of getting lynched, but still retain the ability to out one of the power roles if you fail.

On the other hand it also makes sense from a cop or doctor perspective to not claim until as late as possible, as unnecessarily claiming isn't helpful. So it could just be nothing. I would still like to hear a proper defence of the accusations though.

I'll reread all the recent information, and try to make a better post when I have a bit more time.

[fat_hampster]

an interesting occurrence in the night.
I'm glad that everyone is still alive, however we need to really use this opportunity if we want to win.
at the moment my suspicions lie mostly with Mr Gnome, and SGK, but not significantly so. I'd like to do a re-read with the knowledge that blackberry is town before I post anything significant. In the mean time I would like to hear from everybody else. Hopefully we can get some conversation going, and work out who is most scummy.

Also, I'm going away from Saturday to Tuesday, and I may or may not be able to get to a computer in this time, so if I don't post between these days, then that is why. I would ask that you don't lynch me, or anybody else for that matter in this time.

[fat_hampster]

Day 2

The first thing I wondered about after seeing the night's result was if there had been a successful doctor protection or mafia foregoing their nightkill, why, fat_hampster and clayman, didn't you interrogated this at all?

I guess I just assumed the doctor made the save on this one. I've never been a part of a game where neither mafia sent their kill in, especially with a two day deadline to do so. But I guess it's possible. Still think it's the safer assumption that our Doc made a save though.

Yeah, I also assumed that the doctor made the save. I can't see the advantage in willingly foregoing a kill, given that the likelihood of the doctor choosing a scum to protect is not enormous. Though I suppose if their is no benefit in lynching someone, then the chance of the doctor falsely identifying scum as townie, plus the likelihood of the doctor claiming at some point the next day could be seen to be worth it. However I still think that willingly foregoing a kill seems unlikely, and even if it did happen, it doesn't necessarily help us to know that it happened.
Of course its also possible that they simply forgot to send in their kill, but I also find that unlikely.

I think we should assume that the doctor saved, I don't see any advantage of assuming otherwise. Anyone think differently?

Its been almost 48 hours since dawn, its a shame that we have only heard from three people, what does everyone else think about what happened in the night? Can we please get some input from some other people?

[fat_hampster]

This will be my last post before I go, so it may well be my last post till Tuesday.

It seems like Mr Gnome is likely to be scum. Boggzie has certainly convinced me that he is. If he isn't then it looks like it will be a scum win.

I would still like to hear from him though, as well as everyone else of course, so I would ask you not to lynch anyone before my return. (Especially me ).

It is important to also get information on every other player, because even if we do lynch scum today, there is still tomorrow.

[fat_hampster]

I'm back, but I don't have the time for a long post at the moment, so I would like to get a few things cleared up.

Ok, if I'm not mistaken we already are at lynch or lose. If we mislynch today, and the mafia is successful tonight, then tomorrow will see two scums and two townies alive and that would be a mafia win I think.

So now, Bogzie has claimed cop with a guilty result on Mr Gnome. I'm suspicious of his claim because he wants to rush it: given the lynch or lose situation I can see only mafia doing that so there is no time for the true cop to come forward.

Right now I think we need to agree to not lynch Mr Gnome before everyone has posted at least once starting now.

If no one refutes Bogzie's claim, then it would clear Bogzie and we should lynch Mr Gnome. If there is another cop claim then I think Bogzie is most likely to be the scum.
If anyone see a mistake in my reasoning, please point it out.

So, starting with me: I'm not the cop.

firstly, where does Boggzie claim cop, I've looked for it in the last couple of pages but couldn't find it. The the only mention from boggzie of the cop was pre night, where he says that the cop should investigate one of the lynchers. so please could you point me to the post where he claims. I'm not going to say whether I am the cop or not, unless I am sure that he has claimed. And I would encourage others to do the same.

secondly there was a lot of talk about laying the final vote, however aren't there only two votes on and four needed to lynch? or am I mistaken.

finally, I would like to know what happens in the situation where there are an equal number of town and scum, is it just a scum win, or is it a vote rush or something else? boggzie seemed all to eager to skip over this, when it shouldn't take that long to answer, and if he didn't know, why didn't he just say?

I have some more things to say, So I will write another post when I have a bit more time, which goes over more of the stuff that has happened since I went away.

[fat_hampster]

Gnome's guilty, drop the hammer - and I am formally asking for the Doc's protection tonight. No doubt the last scum will be after me.

I thought that that was a cop claim. Maybe I should have been more careful because he didn't actually formally claim, but I don't see what else it could mean. hampster, what else do you think it could mean?

Gnome's guilty, drop the hammer - and I am formally asking for the Doc's protection tonight. No doubt the last scum will be after me.

I think it means that Boggzie is convinced that Gnome is scum. It makes sense for him to then ask for protection, because if Gnome is scum, then because Boggzie had been pushing the lynch, it would mean that he would be perceived as the biggest threat. On the other hand, I don't think he will be the one targeted in the night, especially now that he has asked for protection, given that they won't lynch him if he does have protection. Assuming that Boggzie isn't scum, I would think that I would be a more likely target, as I have generally supported him, but I'm not as obvious to protect, because I haven't been as convinced about lynching Gnome. If I do die in the night, then I would doubt that Boggzie is scum, as I have been the one that supported him most, and therefore it would be counter-intuitive for him to lynch me.

I do still intend to write a longer post going over most of what happened whilst I was away.

[fat_hampster]

ebwob
missed the deleting of a quote line

[fat_hampster]

hello?

we're 25 hrs between posts.

Can we get cleared up from you whether you claimed or not, it seemed to me like you didn't, but others think you did. Some explanation would be nice.

A bit more input from SGK and Gnome would also be good, they seem to not be doing a lot of posting, whereas everyone else seems to be at least somewhat regular.

Not a huge amount happened while I was away, but the question did get raised about me being 'so confident that Bogzie is not scum'. actually I never said that, I said that he had convinced me that Gnome was scum. Gnome seemed more scummy to me than Boggzie, and he still does, now they could both be scum, though I doubt it, or alternatively neither could be scum, and we could be chasing a red herring. However Boggzie has been significant in pushing a Gnome lynch, and due to his experience being significantly greater than mine, I'm inclined to believe that if he is town, then Gnome is scum, and if he is scum, then gnome is probably town. On reading through it again, though admittedly not thoroughly, Boggzie still seems less scummy than Gnome.

If anyone else has any questions/thinks I've missed anything, please say. Let's try to get some conversation going.

Would especially like to hear something from Gnome and SGK, so please speak up the two of you.

[fat_hampster]

Oh well, I believe Boggzie, hopefully I'm not wrong, but to me, the evidence seems conclusive that Gnome is scum. I also don't think that we will get any useful information for the rest of the day, so we might as well end it.

VOTE: Gnome

hopefully I'll see you all in the morning

[fat_hampster]

I didn't catch you're breadcrumb no.
I protected you night 1 because you were probably the most active in trying to get information etc. I therefore thought that if you were town, that you would be the worst to lose. It was a marginal decision though.

I don't think that springlullaby killing me was luck. I was obviously quite confident in my belief of you day 2, and I think that lead to the belief that I was the doctor, given that he knew that the doctor protected you night 1. In hindsight, I should have been a bit less obvious, (and I realised this later in the day) but it was too late.

It's a pity nobody picked up on springlullaby digging to get role information day 2. I was thinking of claiming day 2, as I believed I would die anyway, but after you (boggzie) claimed, I didn't think that there was as much point.

BTW, How do you know that you were attacked n1? did you get information that you were? (It would seem to be a very good thing to claim that you were attacked if you knew that you were.)

[fat_hampster]

fat_hampster, would you have honestly voted me I hadn't killed you? (Btw, I was happy to kill you because you were the one to show the less willingness to buy my noobish act since day one )

I don't know really. I thought it was a hard choice to make looking at it from a dead perspective, so I don't know who I would have chosen had I stayed alive. I think that I would have tried to ask a few questions before laying my vote though. Ironically I didn't find you're day 1 posts particularly scummy, and I found you're day 2 posts more scummy. It certainly would have been a tough one had I not died.

Out of interest, did you consider killing clayman on the basis that boggzie had indicated him to be the most scummy, because of the probable investigation. If I were in you're position I certainly would have considered it, so did a similar thought enter you're mind?

btw. I agree with you that it was an enjoyable game.

and my thanks go to MeMe for hosting it.