Newbie 1837 [Game Over]
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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kind of ironic that the ic got quicklynched on page 8 in that game, clearly he failed at teaching the basics of mafia one of which is that you don't quicklynch people on page 8
pedit lmao how was i manipulative?
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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So if you're a newbie and you're not really sure what to post at the start of the game then feel free to just say "Hi I'm here I don't know what to post" or ask a random question about something or do really whatever you feel like (see my posts). On ms we start games with RVS and shoot the shit to get people involved in the game and generating content. It's pretty important to be around as an active presence in the game in whatever capacity you can. Being so active that you choke the thread isn't super helpful but it's still better than not being around at all.
Probably a good idea to keep a tab with the game thread open in your browser so that you have it there as a constant reminder; we'd like you to stick around on the site (if you're a nice person, and I'm sure you are!) so step one is to make it through this game and not forget that it exists.
Also @garaputo am curious what your experience with forum mafia is outside mafiascum?
pedit oh hi UC you're welcome I have all the teachings tips have you seen the new Star Trek I hope you don't like it?
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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Promafiaformattingtip if you're quoting someone else's post it can be pretty helpful for your readers if you snip the post of content you're not responding to like so:
Just make sure you take a look at the post in preview so you know you haven't messed up the tags somewhere because that happens all the fucking time believe me I even fucked it up making this post.In post 32, UC Voyager wrote:
I watch the comedy one!In post 30, nancy wrote:pedit oh hi UC you're welcome I have all the teachings tips have you seen the new Star Trek I hope you don't like it?
I am not the biggest fan of the new serious sires, but i love the comedy
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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Me neither!In post 34, Brigadoon wrote:Hi I am t-totally not mafia or anything haha see ya
If it helps you could talk about where you've played mafia before if ever / how you found out about mafia / what interests you about the game?
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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UC when we haven't had everyone in the game post yet I think it's a pretty good idea to let things happen on their own while people get a feel for the game rather than try to speed everyone out of RVS in a hurry; we're only on page two here with 13 days 20 hours left so we're not hugely pressed for time and if there are things you feel like commenting on you should be able to continue doing that without forcing others to follow your lead. If you have a read you feel like pursuing early then by all means go for it, I'm sure that will help towards generating content for the rest of the game to read into.
Sidenote with 2 votes on them Velox is at L-3, meaning 3 more votes would result in their lynch today. Looks like most of the game knows this at this point but it's pretty important to be careful when you're voting someone who is L-2. If you're getting that close to lynching someone you're going to want to make sure the reasoning for your scumread on the slot is pretty solid and that everyone on the wagon knows what everyone else's reasoning is for their vote and is confident that wagon is on scum because we only have 3 mislynches to lynch scum and it gets increasingly difficult to do so the less town are alive in proportion to mafia. If you're putting a vote on someone that will take them to L-1 (1 vote before they're lynched, aka hammer) then you should always put a reminder notice in your post that the wagon is at L-1 so that no one accidentally hammers. On top of that if you're thinking of hammering someone, always give a bunch of notice beforehand that you're thinking about hammering so that the person has a chance to roleclaim and everyone has time to discuss whether or not they think it's a good hammer or not and give final thoughts, etc.
pedit I'm living in the past
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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Pocketing as I understand it happens when mafia mutually townread and buddy a town player, for instance if I were mafia and UC were town and I stated here that I townread UC after he stated that he townread me then I'd be pocketing him. Often involves keeping the player alive so that you can mislynch them later down the track.
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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I don't think deathtunneling is a very pleasant way to play mafia and is probably worth avoiding for that reason alone.
UC I'm not entirely sure why you jumped to deathtunnel in response to say sheep saying they felt like they might be tunneling? There's a pretty significant difference between a tunnel and a deathtunnel and all I'm seeing in that post from sheep is him checking himself on his read. Do you think there's mafia motivation for what sheep is doing or are you just annoyed that he's not townreading you or something else?
Would also like it if you talked about your reasoning for why you think Brigdoon could be mafia because I don't find the reasoning you put forth convincing at all and I'm not sure I understand what you were getting at there.
pedit yeah I can't keep up
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I mean, I reasoned in 69 why I think you weren't being maybe as helpful as you think you were, but yeah I don't think you getting a few votes right now means that you're going to be lynched and if you are town then answering the questions I've laid out for you in 88 is a good way to help at least me see it.In post 94, UC Voyager wrote:I guess i will be scum bait in this game for making a good move. lol
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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Buddying and pocketing are different but pocketing generally involves buddying. Buddying can happen between any two players of any alignment since all it involves is people working together and encouraging one another, but when mafia buddy town it often happens because they perceive a townie to be a threat and want to try to ward that off. If you're mafia and someone is pushing on you it's often a very successful strategy to just buddy the shit out of them since it's harder to push on someone who seems to be reading you correctly and is ostensibly offended by your push than someone who is being nasty or ill-mannered, just a lovely part of human psychology that makes us instinctively empathize with manipulative sociopaths (or in the case of mafia, those playing the role).In post 77, sheepsaysmeep wrote:
oh then i dont know my vocab :/In post 75, nancy wrote:Pocketing as I understand it happens when mafia mutually townread and buddy a town player, for instance if I were mafia and UC were town and I stated here that I townread UC after he stated that he townread me then I'd be pocketing him. Often involves keeping the player alive so that you can mislynch them later down the track.
mean buddying
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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RVS does help town, though. There's a reason it usurped RQS as the go-to for gamestart content; behavior in RVS is alignment indicative and the process of randomly voting each other for some bullshit or another almost invariable leads to some number of reactions that turn into readable content. Part of the value of RVS is letting it develop naturally to see who does what with it where so functionally speaking the argument could be made without too much difficulty that your radical insistence on cutting it short is anti-town.In post 99, UC Voyager wrote:how about the fact velox dragged RVS when RVS doesn't help town?
Like I get that you feel strongly about RVS being a pile of dogshit to shovel into the ditch of yesterday but the way you've gone about it isn't super conducive to your stated preference since if you want the game to get out of RVS one of the better ways to do that it is to simply start producing content and asking other people what they think of that content in a way that doesn't stifle thread activity exterior to your posting rather than telling people in a more or less directionless manner that they should be getting out of RVS and implying that they're doing it wrong if they disagree.
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Hey patrick2. Would you be able to provide some reasoning for whichever of those reads you feel most strongly about? How confident are you in each of those reads roughly speaking?In post 124, patrick2 wrote:patrick2, uc voyager, brianskies and sheepsaysmeep all read town
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Could you expand on this read a little? In what ways do you feel he's helping town so far? Would you mind quoting which of his posts you're referring to wrt his observation? I'm a little unclear on what you're agreeing with there precisely.In post 122, Brigadoon wrote:Brain Skies: I agree with the observation that UC Voyager trying to get out of RVS so much felt a little strange. Looks to be helping the town so far.
By mistake you mean misreading the post? Would be very helpful if you could go over your reasoning here in more depth please, specifically a) what about his readslist didn't make sense? Something about it overall or one or two reads in particular or something else? b) what about the untrue assumptions is suspicious to you? (Also, which assumptions are you referring to, and why do you think they are untrue?) c) what about his defensiveness do you think comes from mafia / couldn't come from town? d) were those the two reasons for why you find his posting a little suspicious or were they separate points? Was there anything else or just those two points? d) I'd like if you could walk me through your thought process on where UC ends up in your reads; if you think he could be town who made a mistake what in his posting makes you lean that way and why? And if you're not sure how are you going to resolve the read? I'd like to get a better look at where your head's at here since I'm not seeing anything from you that would enable you to figure out whether or not UC is flustered town or #outed mafia and if you're town with a conflicted read here I think that should be somewhere near the top of your list of priorities in moving towards solving the game.In post 122, Brigadoon wrote:UC Voyager: His read list didn't make sense. Honestly his posting is a little suspisous, making untrue assumptions about death tunnels, getting defensive when questioned. But he could just be a townie who made a mistake and got flustered.
Would appreciate it if you were able to reconcile your UC read as stated here with your earlier thought that UC could be town; if you've been thinking about the possibility that UC is town here and there's enough doubt in your mind to bring that up then I'm a little unclear in your treatment of him here since obviously if he is town then he can't be caught out. Could just be an issue of wording and not something I'm hugely interested in but if you wanted to write a few words about that I wouldn't mind reading them at all.In post 122, Brigadoon wrote:sheepsaysmeep: Making pushes on players, towny vibe, caught UC Voyager out with the death tunnel bait.
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I have a bit of downtime before I head to bed to go over the quicklynch from the Wishes game. In the spoiler are the votes where the quicklynch happened over the course of ~6 hours.
Scum are Geoni and acidphoenix, meaning ShafferMoon's hammer post came from town (funnily enough, he unvoted mafia to hammer the cop). Shaffer's reasoning for the hammer was:Spoiler:
Which is very, very terrible reasoning for any lynch. Impatience is never a reason to hammer someone and unfortunately ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ isn't ever a reason to lynch someone either. Unless you enjoy gamethrowing, pissing the rest of town off and making yourself lynchbait I'd very strongly encourage you to be a little more circumspect with your lynch votes than the newbies in that game were and a ton more open with your thoughts. Can't really overemphasize the latter point in particular.In post 241, ShafferMoon wrote:I hammered because I felt like we needed to get somewhere, sorry for the impatience. Ugh
Talking about your reasoning and thoughts on reads is how games get solved, so pretty much the more of it the better. If you're town in most cases there's not enough of a downside in being transparent and sharing just about everything you have on your mind with the rest of town to not do it. This is something that I think players on ms have a pretty difficult time with and is a big part of why town meta here is so weak; read through any non-newbie game here and you're almost always going to see a lot of town fighting each other, throwing votes around and arguing about who they want to lynch but not doing a lot of talking about their thoughts and reasoning and coming together around that to break down which thoughts and lines of reasoning are good and which don't really hold up, which I think is a much more useful way of doing things. Mafia's a game of conversation so where that doesn't happen games don't get solved and people get quicklynched, neither of which are enjoyable.
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That's not really something I'm able to answer without reading your post / the game and probably wouldn't start discussing it here since your reasoning for lynching lycanfire isn't relevant in any particular way that I'm aware of to this game, but broadly speaking I think if you're on a wagon you're responsible for that vote. If I think you have poor reasoning for anything in this game I'll talk to you about it when it happens.In post 131, garaputo wrote:Did you think that my argument about lycan's behavior made sense and/or that I was responsible for that lynch?
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I should've come back to this game sooner; would very much like it if people were doing a little less calling each other scum and more asking for and sharing their thoughts on things.
@Veloxputting UC to L-2 the way you did there isn't at all acceptable with the lack of reasoning from you so if you could talk about why you think that UC is mafia that would be pretty helpful. Haven't seen much of anything from you in the way of reads or thoughts about the game so if you're able to please work on changing that even if all that ends up being is talking about how you're reading UC's posts in the way that you are and why.What made you change your mind on UC? Could you talk a little more about your UC read in a way that doesn't involve meta? If you think there's a chance he's town here are you able to go through his ISO and see where you might have misread him earlier and how that happened? Generally just needing something from you in the way of thoughts that I can get an alignment read off since flipping your read and saying you have a sudden realization about his town meta isn't very helpful to me in that regard.
@Brigadoonre your 158, where did you go over the readslist before? I'm not seeing it in your ISO. I understand that it's early and more posting is going to allow reads to form but if you're town here you should be poking at things and presenting reasoning for why you're reading things in the ways that you are; don't think it's going to be helpful if you just wait for everyone else to produce content without contributing to it and I think a pretty good way to contribute would be to talk to UC about why you think there was mafia motivation in his posts and hear what he has to say about that. Imagine you're spending time with a friend; if neither of you speak to each other nothing's going to happen and you're both going to grow bored very quickly but if you start sharing what's been on your mind then you're going to have a much more productive and fulfilling time together.
Game has to start somewhere so saying it's too early to have anything concrete isn't helpful. Let's imagine if you don't get UC's alignment solved before the end of the dayphase then you die; how are you going to go about solving for that and where do you start? Passing over his early content that you find suspicious isn't going to get you anywhere and I'm not understanding why you're not concerned about your read on his slot when you've already identified a few things that could go either way depending on how you end up reading his motivation. If you're town your life depends on you solving the game and if you're mafia your life depends on you appearing town so either way talking to people about their content is going to benefit your wincon if you do it well.
Last bit is that you haven't answered the question about why UC misreading sheep's post is suspicious to you; why do you think it's more likely that scum!UC misreads that post and thinks that sheep wants to tunnel him? Can you think of an example where mafia have done that? Is there something that strikes you about the way that he did it in particular or is there something generic about misreading or misreading in that way that you think is scummy? Something else?
@garaputowhat makes you confident enough that Velox is scum to want to doublevote him? Run me through your reasoning there? Also would like to hear why you think I'm town at this point; if I told you that I've not lost a game as mafia would that affect your read at all and if so why?
@patrick2would like it if you could talk more about why you think Velox is mafia here; not liking his push on UC and thinking it's opportunistic are fine reasons for a surface read but I definitely would be looking for more in-depth thoughts on that if you have a strong enough read to want to kill the slot. If you're not sure where to start, what about the push feels opportunistic and why do you think it comes from mafia? Going to need to hear some expanded thoughts on that rather just than saying that it's opportunistic if I'm going to believe that this is a genuine read from you.
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nancy Jack of All Trades
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Not saying you get nightkilled, talking about a hypothetical world where you have to get a correct read today or you lose; a little souped up but those are basically the stakes in play when you're town. Shrugging and say why think about it always results in a loss and since we're obliged to play to our wincon playing to lose looks like a sign that you're scum; scum can't solve the game because the game is already solved for them. Your attitude here for instance is somewhat scummy because you're refusing to engage in solving the game and arguing for why you shouldn't have to be solving the game and becoming aggressive towards me for trying to help you towards being able to solve it. Your vote on me is also somewhat scummy given that you haven't put forth any reasoning for why I might be scum or displayed what the thought process was that led you to think that I'm mafia. Those two things don't automatically make you scum because town behave in scummy ways as well which is all part of the difficulty of solving but it certainly doesn't help me get a correct read on you if you are town, which should be one of your main objectives given that the rest of town has to solve the game as well and you behaving as town as possible directly helps them to be able to recognize that you're town. Does that make sense?In post 212, Brigadoon wrote:
I don't really like this line of questioning it's too speculative and weird. If I get night killed there isn't anything I can do about it so why even think about it? I haven't passed over my reads on anyone, I am playing the game and analysing who I think is the most likely to be scum. I can't solve UC's alignment or anyone's at this point, nobody knows who is who except scum. I can only give my best guess.In post 203, nancy wrote: Game has to start somewhere so saying it's too early to have anything concrete isn't helpful. Let's imagine if you don't get UC's alignment solved before the end of the dayphase then you die; how are you going to go about solving for that and where do you start? Passing over his early content that you find suspicious isn't going to get you anywhere and I'm not understanding why you're not concerned about your read on his slot when you've already identified a few things that could go either way depending on how you end up reading his motivation. If you're town your life depends on you solving the game and if you're mafia your life depends on you appearing town so either way talking to people about their content is going to benefit your wincon if you do it well.
VOTE: nancy
What do you think about Brian Skies' potshot at me for not talking about my reads so far?
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Lmao. Something must be wrong with the steroids, then.In post 217, Brian Skies wrote:Reading your posts this game is like watching a Nacho coaching session on steroids.
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Yeah but a little less of the former which isn't super helpful at this point and a little more of the latter which people don't seem to be doing much of would be very A+.In post 222, garaputo wrote:
Can I do both at once? I prefer that.In post 203, nancy wrote:I should've come back to this game sooner; would very much like it if people were doing a little less calling each other scum and more asking for and sharing their thoughts on things.
Why don't you think it reflects a town mindset? Can you run me through precisely how you're reading those in terms of mafia motivation? Like exactly why is it not a pro-town action and why does it not being a pro-town action mean that it's coming from mafia? I need more than what you've given me here because I'm not seeing your actual thoughts on the page so much as a summary of what happened.In post 222, garaputo wrote:
Well my reaction to 140 was pretty direct. I have said that it was not a pro town action 142 and voted.In post 203, nancy wrote:@garaputowhat makes you confident enough that Velox is scum to want to doublevote him? Run me through your reasoning there? Also would like to hear why you think I'm town at this point; if I told you that I've not lost a game as mafia would that affect your read at all and if so why?
The response in 159 was exactly what I expect from someone who doesn't want to be held accountable - avoidance. Which is why my 160 reflected a wish to double down on the vote.
I have since then reiterated that I thought that post didn't reflect a town mindset 176, something that again has not been directly addressed.
I'm also especially interested to hear why those points have given you such a strong read; confidence in your reads is good but a very strong scumread that you're doubling down on based on only two posts is pretty exceptional so I would hope to hear some pretty exceptional reasoning behind it; the only clear reasoning I think you've given me is that Velox is mafia because he didn't want to be held accountable; that's not good or helpful behavior but I wouldn't call it an alignment tell on its own and under the circumstances I don't find it convincing as a reason to scumread Velox at all. So if you do find it very convincing I hope you'd be able to show me why you do so that I can understand better where you're coming from.
Do you think that applies to anyone else as well? Do you think it's possible that mafia could also not try to push any specific outcome or are mafia always trying to push a specific outcome? How does that differ from town who have their own agenda based on their reads and are trying to push a specific outcome, presumably their scumread to get lynched? Bunch of questions here but pretty important ones; really would like to get some insight into your process and how you're determining that these things are something that couldn't come from mafia.In post 222, garaputo wrote:Regarding why I think you are town, perhaps call it gut, but I don't get a sense that you are trying to push any specific outcome today, something that you could easily do in your position. While it is true that from a neutral point of view, it is easy enough for a scum you to ask for the sorts of things that you are asking for, it is also true that the sorts of things you are asking for align well with things that should help the town win.
I'm very new to mafia; I've been playing for just over a year now and have only ~20 games under my belt (have probably spectated dozens more, something I definitely encourage you to do if you want to learn the game faster). I'm no more than decent as a player but I'm improving and always working to get better and since pretty much the beginning scum has been my preferred alignment and something I do better at and feel more comfortable with; when I'm scum I feel in control and untouchable and I lead my teams. People have told me that I have a very strong scumgame and while I believe that I may have potential all my wins as scum have been against pretty mediocre towns so while I don't mistake them for thinking that it's more of a "well congrats you won in little league" and not something I put a lot of stock into.In post 222, garaputo wrote:As for the last bit - I don't think very highly of results oriented thinking. Tf it is true that you have never lost as scum, it matters to me less the fact that you've not lost as scum than *why* you've not lost as scum. For instance if the reason why is that you've never been scum, that wouldn't be very useful information. There is a lot of variance in the outcome of these games, and it takes a large sample size for that information to be statistically relevant.
That said in all my scumgames except one where I had my team bus me because I didn't want to play anymore and one where I was confirmed scum to a townie in LyLo I've never been voted by a townie and all of them except the aforementioned bus game have been perfect wins; I've found it very easy to be townread and am extremely difficult to lynch as either alignment and I do have the ability to produce just about any manner of content as scum which means everything I'm typing right now is something I could pretty easily produce as scum.
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Please do!In post 224, sheepsaysmeep wrote:garaputo is gut scum from tone
hard to explain but i'll try if anyone wants me to
Gut should be something that informs and leads you to pursue reads, not something that comprises the whole or majority of the read. It isn't reliable and it's not really something you should expect to be very accurate (especially since you're more prone to confirmation bias when you're dealing with feelings). If you get a gut feeling about something, that's your queue to investigate and figure out why you felt that and go through your reasoning to arrive at as solid read as you're able with the information you have and usually to follow up on that by hashing out your read with the player or players in question and hopefully getting feedback from your townreads as well.
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Could you expand on this a little? I'm more than a little curious about your take here especially given the most recent content from the slot. Why do you think they voted me and is that reasoning (if any) understandable to you? If you feel up to heroics, give their ISO more than cursory read-through while referring back to the game thread for context and highlight for me precisely what about their content displays solving motivation and why and whether there is any content that doesn't display that.In post 226, sheepsaysmeep wrote:Brigadoon- 6/10 through a quick iso i see some game solvign motivation from this slot
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217 is a post that has no bearing on alignment; he's comparing my posting style to Nachomamma8 (which isn't fair at all to Nacho). If you disagree please elaborate on exactly why you think that post doesn't come from Brian Skies if he's scum. Gut is also not reasoning that I can follow at all so it would be helpful if you go into that read a little more with some thoughts that can help me get into your head a little, even if it's just one sentence.In post 226, sheepsaysmeep wrote:Brian Skies- 6.5/10 whenever he has thoughts i usually agree with them or understand where theyre coming from especially 217, and gut
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@BrigadoonYou/garaputo/Brian Skies probably my strongest leads right now; don't find your read on UC to be understandable and you've been pretty resistant to talking in more depth about that so until I see something from you that convinces me that you actually are reading things the way you say you are there then you're probably going to be squarely below null for me; don't think your vote on me and how that happened makes any sense coming from town and really struggle to follow the thoughts you've presented on the game so far. Don't really see that changing unless you start engaging with the concerns and questions I've raised.
Don't find garaputo's read on Velox to be very understandable and struggle to see how he's reading into Velox's alignment in the way that he is; the reasoning he put forth really doesn't match the strength of read he's displayed; definitely looking forward to hearing back from him on that to hopefully get a better read on him and watching him try to solve the game over the course of the dayphase. Also think there's been ~2-3 things he's done outside of that that point it being possible he's mafia here that I'll mention at a later point; acting against my general preference for transparency here because I'm hoping that someone else mentions them which help me get a better read on that player + as IC I have to juggle not overly influencing other people's reads by talking about my own to the fullest extent.
Also don't think Brian Skies has done anything that feels town; don't really find the reads he's stated so far to be very believable and haven't seen any reasoning from him that would suggest that he's genuinely looking to solve the game here; his push on UC contained reasoning that seemed justified but didn't really highlight why Brian Skies thought that UC's posting showed real mafia motivation. Haven't seen many thoughts on the game from him and his most recent vote on acidphoenix looks like open wolfing that I guess I'm supposed to write off for the ironic troll persona he's adopting there; think that if he's mafia here he's voting someone he expressed suspicion of in his earlier post in order to seem like he has genuine reads but I've not seen anything from him that would make me believe that he genuinely thinks acidphoenix could be mafia here.
Honorable mention to patrick2; think that the point acidphoenix raised about him having a bunch of early townreads is a good one but think that patrick2's later post clarifying that the read on UC was the only one of any real strength makes me mostly fine with that in particular; definitely wanting to see more from the slot in the way of thoughts and reasoning on the reads he's put forth so far.
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Thanks for the clarification; must have misread that post. Unfair to Nacho because I'm nowhere near his level. Sorry that you feel walled to death; I can try to scale them back or provide tl;dr's but it's how I play /shrugs.
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PS if you have anything you feel like sharing about what you think would make my walls more palatable for you I'd always love to hear it; when I say it's how I'm play I don't mean that I'm going to do my thing and fuck anyone who doesn't like it, but I don't think it would be right for me to become a different player simply because I'm in a newbie game and I don't really know how to play seriously any other way. Also don't really have any intention of going easy on the newbies even if I am obviously dedicating a lot more of my posting to coaching and giving them queues than I would be in a non-newbie game.
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Thanks for the response garaputo, I'll read it and get back to you likely tomorrow.
@Brian Skies think you'll find that my posts where I talk about my reads in a non-questioning way tend to be pretty compact; it's the posts where I dig into other people's content and try to talk to them about what they're thinking/feeling about the game that end up being pretty long. Fair few IC posts on top of that where I have a lot that I feel I need to put down for the newbies to get their head around.
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@garaputothe explanation for your mindset read on Velox makes sense but I think you've failed to explain how that behavior comes from mafia and doesn't come from town; I've personally seen a ton of town players provoke people for their own amusement and I think if you're reading alignment into it there has to be more than what you've given here. Couple other things still giving me pause there:
a) the strength of your read in relation to the amount of content from that slot is in my opinion exceptional and if you don't think it's exceptional could you lay out why for me? If that involves citing meta from mtgs where you've gotten hard reads from very little content as town that's acceptable but also think you should be able to argue in clear terms without that why you feel a hard scumread from ~2-3 posts here isn't exceptional; e.g., talking to Regfan yesterday he highlighted for me why he felt a particular post was scummy and how he got a strong scumread from it, think that was pretty exceptional but the depth of his explanation matched the read; not looking for lots of words from you, just something that helps me see that the behavior you're seeing strongly comes from mafia and not town; I think your desire to emphasize your vote on Velox lines up well with your earlier stated preference for using your vote to sign that you're serious but what I'm not understanding here is why and what that means to you;
b) while I can believe you genuinely think that that behavior comes from mafia based on your explanation, you're saying in the next paragraph down that you think it's anti-town behavior, which is it and where's the mix-up there coming from? Very aware that Velox's behavior is anti-town and that's really where my confusion is coming from since I don't think that anti-town behavior alone merits a strong scumread.
My question, "Do you think that applies to anyone else as well?", is referring to anyone else in this game; if you're not sensing that I'm trying to push any specific outcome is there anyone else here who also isn't trying to do that? Basically a leading question because I'm wondering why you're townreading me for this and not other players and the followup for this that I was going to ask when you responded but I'll do it now was why that alone is enough of a reason to give me a townread this early. Also not seeing you questioning the basis for that read at all even after I've told you that if I were mafia I very probably would not be letting slip any agenda which is what you're townreading me for so why are you not concerned that you're being pocketed here?
Cute kitten for levity:
The other things I was looking at that I felt were mildly scummy were your response to Brigadoon's readslist mentioning that you'd pointed out two flaws not one in UC's argumentation; think that's scummy because you don't seem interested in understanding her there nor in challenging any of her positions which I think you would be more inclined to do if you were trying to sort her alignment; think this also shows in your earlier 92 to UC where you've responded with a passive take on his post that doesn't really comment in any substantive way and doesn't display any interest in what's going on between UC and sheep wrt the tunnel and people scumreading UC for that. Not really understanding the tack you're taking in your follow-up to that in 134 or why you think that line of questioning will help you sort UC's alignment.
And finally I think the way that you play both sides of the argument in 143/145 without seeming invested in either in any way that makes me feel like you're really interested in digging into what they're thinking about the game to get a read on them is at least a little bit more likely to come from mafia than town here. None of these are strong points but they're definitely things I'm noticing and keeping in mind as I continue to try to assess my read on you.
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If you could answer my question to you in 203 that would be super helpful.In post 261, patrick2 wrote:Nothing else I need to add at this stage.
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Liking the back-and-forth between garaputo and Brigadoon last page / top of this page; this is the kind of digging into each other's thoughts that I think will help us solve the game so definitely hoping to see more of that kind of exchange where two people sit down and talk out their thoughts with each other.
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Could you talk a little about what you misread him for in the previous game and what he did here that's like that?In post 258, Velox wrote:going back to that question since it was brought up again and i never answered it
it's really just as simple as i realized i was (probably) misreading him for exactly the same reason i misread him his previous game
/shrug
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I'm not very suspcious of UC if that's who you're referring to; not anything close to sold on him being town by any means but I think the way he argued for leaving RVS and his whole attitude around that and treatment of it was understandable and felt mostly genuine and while there are a few posts in his ISO that give me pause I don't think there's a ton of mafia motivation in the content he's put forward so far. Don't think it's a read I'm going to be able to feel good about until a little later in the dayphase.In post 256, Brian Skies wrote:It also reads as though you had some sort of suspicion on him, but you don't even bring him up as an honorable mention here. I get if you're just waiting for his response, but a lack of a response shouldn't merit a change in read. I also see that you're scumreading Garaputo (or I guess Patrick), but unless you just strongly think Gara (or Patrick) is scum here, I don't really understand why you dropped this.
If you think Velox is more likely to be town here, can you walk me through on why that is?
I'm not sure why you're thinking I dropped anything as I've been waiting for a response; don't think either patrick2 or Velox had posted since my question at that point. Don't strongly think anyone is mafia right now, I tend to develop reads fairly slowly and like to take my time to interact with everyone. Velox is largely null for me at this point.
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Not sure I understand what you're saying in this sentence, specifically the "because"; could you try rephrasing it?In post 283, garaputo wrote:Firstly I don't actually believe that you want to understand why I voted and why I'm confident about it, because I've told you insist on asking me to manufacture something else retroactively.
Think that if you have a strong read you should have strong justification and I'm not sure why you find that disputable. I'm not trying to make you dance to any tune; trying to dig into the reasoning and thoughts you've presented because I don't understand them. If you're town here it's in your benefit to help me sort you; saying "not going to and it's your problem if you don't understand" isn't much different to the kind of behavior you've said is anti-town and for which you're scumreading Velox so I'm very ??? about that, don't think it's reasonable at all of you.In post 283, garaputo wrote: Secondarily just because I'm confident in it early doesn't mean I have to have some extraordinary reason. I realize that you wish to make me dance to some tune of your making and decline to do so. Regardless of my confidence in my vote, the actual impact is *one vote* and if you think I'm wrong or don't believe my read is genuine, then do what you want with that.
Anti-town is a little different to pro-scum in that anti-town is something that doesn't directly benefit town but doesn't necessarily directly benefit scum either; the behavior you're describing absolutely can and does come from scum but it can also come from town so there needs to be more than just that as reasoning for a scumread. Very much struggling to see how this is something you genuinely believe here.In post 283, garaputo wrote: I think you apply Occam's razor here: the simplest explanation for anti town behavior is anti town goals. Specifically the sorts of outcomes that come from provoking people: irritated people lashing out, something that can usually be used to drum up some sort of scum case or false outrage.
Could you lay out for me exactly why you think Velox is clearly not trying to help the town and why that makes him mafia? Think he's done about as little as Brigadoon or patrick2 or acidphoenix have done to help town so what's the difference between Velox and those three players that's leading you to read him as mafia over them and why is that sufficient reason to kill him?In post 283, garaputo wrote: More importantly note how velox has played since then. Velox is clearly not trying to help the town, I'm quite happy with the current trend towards lynching velox.
Think you've not understood me (or if you have are deflecting). I'm looking at your townread on me and the reasoning you've given for that read and I'm seeing other players who I think also exhibit that behavior and I'm not seeing you townread them and I'm wondering why that is; if your reasoning for townreading me is something you really believe then I'd think you should also be townreading those players, and if there are other reasons for why you aren't then that's what this line of questioning from me accomplishes in finding out.In post 283, garaputo wrote:You are injecting your assumptions into your questioning here. You are asking me if I am townreading anyone else to then in the next sentence wondering why I'm not townreading others. This shows you've just short circuited your own questions and starting working off the assumed answer.
Don't think I've made any assumptions here that undermine my questioning and I'm not sure I understand why that's your approach to this interaction or how you think any of this gets us anywhere. Not getting the feeling you're interested in engaging with me honestly here.
Not sure I understand how this lines up with the rest of your post; you've spent the past few paragraphs attacking my questioning and deflecting from answering my questions because you think they're misleading and bad so I don't understand how that connects with me having good motives unless your intention here is to just start buddying me while discrediting my attempts to understand you and get a read on you.In post 283, garaputo wrote: I am fairly confident right now that your motives are good for the town, which is a fine reason for townreading you for now, regardless of whether you feel that is sufficient.
What I was looking at was the lack of contribution and you focusing on more or less negligible details in lieu of more meaningful points; it's me reading into you feeling that a marginal error about yourself is more important than anything else Brigadoon put forth in that post; don't understand at all the point you're trying to make about linkage or how that's relevant.In post 283, garaputo wrote: Read that aloud to yourself and realize how terrible the linkage you have between (literally correcting factual errors) and (not interested in understanding or challenging).
If you have those questions the only way to show other people that you have them is by putting them out there; can't read your mind so it's entirely your job to show other people what you're thinking about the game. Those questions are also not going to be answered unless you do put them out there so if you do want to get a read on people that would be a great way of going about it, no?In post 283, garaputo wrote: I dispute the presumption that a simple post to correct fact precludes simultaneously wanting to know more about the same post or other posts. Just because I haven't come out of the gate asking everyone every possible question I have in mind doesn't mean that I don't have those questions.
Not assuming that at all. That's not really the sense I got from that post, if you're town and I'm misreading that could you explain how/what you were looking to understand about his thought process there and generally just give me a little more insight / something to work with? You telling me I'm wrong isn't going to help me understand you, regardless of whether it's true or not.In post 283, garaputo wrote: Again, you are assuming that every post I make has to be solely for the purpose of determining someone's alignment, where here it is clear I am looking to understand (and possibly correct flaws in) someone else's thought process.
I'm not at all saying that every post has to be digging into alignment nor was that a premise of any part of my reasoning; I think that the things I highlighted were relatively scummy because I think commenting on things that look to be irrelevant to the matters at hand and which don't contribute to discussion and appearing to not be invested in scumhunting are things that are generically more likely to come from mafia.In post 283, garaputo wrote: I again flatly refute that every post of mine has to be digging into people in order to get a read. My assessment of people's motivations can come from many places, and what motivates a person emerges holistically from the things that they consider relevant. If I am pointing out that I feel something being asked is irrelevant, I'm offering other people a data point on me.
Also not sure how your reads emerging holistically adds up with your hard scumread on Velox; don't think you've seen nearly enough from him to be able to get a sense of his motivation in that way so that in particular from you is very ??? and need to hear more about what you mean there if I'm going to understand you here at all.
tl;dr I think you're doing a lot of deflecting and trying to derail my questioning rather than just talking to me in a straightforward and honest way here.
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Quote for Brian Skies emphasis.In post 285, nancy wrote:tl;dr I think you're doing a lot of deflecting and trying to derail my questioning rather than just talking to me in a straightforward and honest way here.
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If you're town and genuinely think that please go back and reread the post in question; the points I raised in that section were as stated pretty minor points and not things I felt were hugely alignment indicative; nowhere do I use the kind of "obviously aren't" language and I'm not interested in making you look bad, I'm interested in trying to understand you and I brought up those points because you seemed to want me to. Sorry if you're feeling unfairly treated.In post 284, garaputo wrote:The above literally took a few posts where I was clarifying things and said "since you're clarifying things, you obviously aren't trying to figure out alignment" which I think is very weak sauce.
I explained this briefly in that post but I intentionally didn't comment on them because they're weren't hugely important and there's a certain level of "the IC said this therefore it holds more weight" even if I'm really just another player in this game with extra responsibilities; I have to juggle talking about my reads and letting newbies get their own reads without that influencing them.In post 284, garaputo wrote:However the question I would like to ask is, why the double standard between arguing for transparency in posts like 129 and then not being transparent yourself in 239?
Why shouldn't you act in the same way you are advising everyone else. I dispute that the above points would have been so overwhelmingly powerful as to have biased other's evaluation of me, and even if it were, isn't sharing it anyways what you argued for in 129, as the downside is outweighed by the upside?
The upside is that I don't comment on absolutely everything to the point that no one else has anything to talk about and maybe get some kind of w/w or not w/w read from it if someone does pick up on them without me, the downside is... not really anything since it's something I'd bring up eventually regardless and doesn't become irrelevant for time passing.
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I'm not sure how to ask more directly than what I have. I don't find the reasoning for your scumread on Velox to be understandable and I don't find the reasoning for your townread on me to be understandable; I raised a bunch of specific ways in which you could resolve these points and went into a lot of detail as to what those issues were and where they were coming from; have also brought up some discrepancies in your posts that confuse me.In post 293, garaputo wrote:
Just ask me what you want to ask then? Like directly?In post 292, nancy wrote:Yeah this isn't a real conversation as long you continue to twist things I've said and turn my questions back on themselves.
You strongly scumread Velox based on anti-town behavior, not scum behavior, as I understand the read; this is not good reasoning and you've not made me believe that you really do hold this read beyond insisting that you do. You townread me based on not seeming to have an agenda, as I understand the read; this is super vague and could be applied to basically anyone you chose and you've not resolved that or shown why I should think your townread is real. When I've raised these points you've done what looks to me like a lot of deflecting and discrediting and saying a bunch of words that don't really mean anything. Have seen practically zero from you in the way of reasoning on your reads.
Do you have any reads outside me/Velox that you can talk about?
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What makes you think that?
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Eh, I shouldn't say zero reasoning, it's the basis for that reasoning that I'm missing.
pedit if you care about the game being solved you should be working with other people, especially your townreads; saying you refuse to work with me is ??? and you can say you don't care but if I mislynch you then both of us are going to care very much. Like, I ask you questions and you basically say "I don't have to answer that if I don't want to you're doing it wrong". Not helpful to me at all doesn't do anything to convince me you're town.
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I'm not interested in going through your posting point by point establishing how you're deflecting etc. as that's very likely just going to lead to a bunch of apathy and doesn't help me get a better read on you.
Fyi am not frustrated so if you're sensing frustration in my posts your tonal radar needs nancy adjusting.
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Whomever you feel like talking about the most.In post 305, garaputo wrote:Sure. Again care to be more specific about who'd you like to talk about?
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Only reason we're still here talking about this is that when I first asked you some pretty basic questions you turned it into a wallfest and started making it about a bunch of things that are very irrelevant.In post 308, garaputo wrote:You know you've been doing a *very* effective job of taking the time I would be spending doing other useful things and putting them into reassuring you that what I actually believe is what I actually believe.
You've seemed really happy to be on one side of the questions and not really willing to answer my questions going back.
Have put forth a sizeable post answering a bunch of your content so I'm not really sure where you're coming from on the latter point.
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Dare I ask how you arrived at that read?In post 310, garaputo wrote:I would bet this entire game on patrick2 being town.
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Lol. And I hadn't forgotten. But you didn't display the type of read there that you'd bet the game on so what changed?In post 315, garaputo wrote:
I've cleverly hidden it in a discussion you've breezed over as "theory"In post 312, nancy wrote:
Dare I ask how you arrived at that read?In post 310, garaputo wrote:I would bet this entire game on patrick2 being town.
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Thanks, that makes sense even I very much disagree that it should equal betting the game that he's town. Do you have some games on mtgs of yours that I could look at? 1-2 of mafia, 1-2 of town?
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garaputo/Brigadoon what are your thoughts on UC? Find it very difficult to believe the progression from 238 ->297 -> 314/316 and think the way that he approached the exchange between garaputo and me to be very much what I would expect from mafia not knowing which side to take and wanting to benefit from both / incite argument with no real purpose; also don't find a few of his other reads very understandable and am somewhat less willing to write it off as playstyle after the above.
hi meet my mafiascum gravestone, the flowers were probably left by camn or schadd or Prism, blow them kisses for me would you?-
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nancy Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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- Location: lesbian heaven
Fyi we're heading into the middle portion of the dayphase so this is the period where everyone should be working to get reads on ~2-3 players they suspect may be scum and work out which one of them they think have the highest chance of being mafia. You're never going to sort the whole board in one dayphase but if you end up with 1-2 townreads that you feel confident in, 1-2 townreads that you're less confident in and think need shoring up in future days and 1-2 scumreads that you feel good about lynching with everyone else in a "to sort" pile you're doing very well for day 1.
hi meet my mafiascum gravestone, the flowers were probably left by camn or schadd or Prism, blow them kisses for me would you?-
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nancy Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9299
- Joined: December 26, 2016
- Location: lesbian heaven
Link please? Have you seen him play mafia?In post 325, garaputo wrote:I watch UCV replace into my role as town in the game I was in last. I find his play consistent with his town play in that game so far.
hi meet my mafiascum gravestone, the flowers were probably left by camn or schadd or Prism, blow them kisses for me would you?-
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nancy Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9299
- Joined: December 26, 2016
- Location: lesbian heaven
I've been reading you and everyone for the entirety of the game regardless of whether I've been talking about it; asking those two because they're online right now and have been interacting with me and would like to get a better read on them in particular given I'm feeling very nebulous about their slots right now. Feel like saving garaputo the work and linking me some of your towngames and scumgames?
hi meet my mafiascum gravestone, the flowers were probably left by camn or schadd or Prism, blow them kisses for me would you?-
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nancy Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9299
- Joined: December 26, 2016
- Location: lesbian heaven
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nancy Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9299
- Joined: December 26, 2016
- Location: lesbian heaven