Newbie 1837 [Game Over]

[nancy]

am i the only girl

[nancy]

i was trying to swat a fly earlier with my midi skirt while i was sitting on the toilet but it didn't quite work

[nancy]

kind of ironic that the ic got quicklynched on page 8 in that game, clearly he failed at teaching the basics of mafia one of which is that you don't quicklynch people on page 8

pedit lmao how was i manipulative?

[nancy]

(page 7 or 9 is fine, just not page 8)

[nancy]

lol

i hate you

[nancy]

hottake brian skies probably not mafia with oil tycoons

[nancy]

oil tycoons

[nancy]

So if you're a newbie and you're not really sure what to post at the start of the game then feel free to just say "Hi I'm here I don't know what to post" or ask a random question about something or do really whatever you feel like (see my posts). On ms we start games with RVS and shoot the shit to get people involved in the game and generating content. It's pretty important to be around as an active presence in the game in whatever capacity you can. Being so active that you choke the thread isn't super helpful but it's still better than not being around at all.

Probably a good idea to keep a tab with the game thread open in your browser so that you have it there as a constant reminder; we'd like you to stick around on the site (if you're a nice person, and I'm sure you are!) so step one is to make it through this game and not forget that it exists.

Also @garaputo am curious what your experience with forum mafia is outside mafiascum?

pedit oh hi UC you're welcome I have all the teachings tips have you seen the new Star Trek I hope you don't like it?

[nancy]

Oh I didn't know there was a comedy I'll have to look that up although I'm a very very serious person I don't really engage in comedy that often.

[nancy]

Promafiaformattingtip if you're quoting someone else's post it can be pretty helpful for your readers if you snip the post of content you're not responding to like so:

pedit oh hi UC you're welcome I have all the teachings tips have you seen the new Star Trek I hope you don't like it?

I watch the comedy one!
I am not the biggest fan of the new serious sires, but i love the comedy

Just make sure you take a look at the post in preview so you know you haven't messed up the tags somewhere because that happens all the fucking time believe me I even fucked it up making this post.

[nancy]

Hi I am t-totally not mafia or anything haha see ya

Me neither!

If it helps you could talk about where you've played mafia before if ever / how you found out about mafia / what interests you about the game?

[nancy]

UC when we haven't had everyone in the game post yet I think it's a pretty good idea to let things happen on their own while people get a feel for the game rather than try to speed everyone out of RVS in a hurry; we're only on page two here with 13 days 20 hours left so we're not hugely pressed for time and if there are things you feel like commenting on you should be able to continue doing that without forcing others to follow your lead. If you have a read you feel like pursuing early then by all means go for it, I'm sure that will help towards generating content for the rest of the game to read into.

Sidenote with 2 votes on them Velox is at L-3, meaning 3 more votes would result in their lynch today. Looks like most of the game knows this at this point but it's pretty important to be careful when you're voting someone who is L-2. If you're getting that close to lynching someone you're going to want to make sure the reasoning for your scumread on the slot is pretty solid and that everyone on the wagon knows what everyone else's reasoning is for their vote and is confident that wagon is on scum because we only have 3 mislynches to lynch scum and it gets increasingly difficult to do so the less town are alive in proportion to mafia. If you're putting a vote on someone that will take them to L-1 (1 vote before they're lynched, aka hammer) then you should always put a reminder notice in your post that the wagon is at L-1 so that no one accidentally hammers. On top of that if you're thinking of hammering someone, always give a bunch of notice beforehand that you're thinking about hammering so that the person has a chance to roleclaim and everyone has time to discuss whether or not they think it's a good hammer or not and give final thoughts, etc.

pedit I'm living in the past

[nancy]

Pocketing as I understand it happens when mafia mutually townread and buddy a town player, for instance if I were mafia and UC were town and I stated here that I townread UC after he stated that he townread me then I'd be pocketing him. Often involves keeping the player alive so that you can mislynch them later down the track.

[nancy]

I don't think deathtunneling is a very pleasant way to play mafia and is probably worth avoiding for that reason alone.

UC I'm not entirely sure why you jumped to deathtunnel in response to say sheep saying they felt like they might be tunneling? There's a pretty significant difference between a tunnel and a deathtunnel and all I'm seeing in that post from sheep is him checking himself on his read. Do you think there's mafia motivation for what sheep is doing or are you just annoyed that he's not townreading you or something else?

Would also like it if you talked about your reasoning for why you think Brigdoon could be mafia because I don't find the reasoning you put forth convincing at all and I'm not sure I understand what you were getting at there.

pedit yeah I can't keep up

[nancy]

Exactly.

[nancy]

I guess i will be scum bait in this game for making a good move. lol

I mean, I reasoned in 69 why I think you weren't being maybe as helpful as you think you were, but yeah I don't think you getting a few votes right now means that you're going to be lynched and if you are town then answering the questions I've laid out for you in 88 is a good way to help at least me see it.

[nancy]

Pocketing as I understand it happens when mafia mutually townread and buddy a town player, for instance if I were mafia and UC were town and I stated here that I townread UC after he stated that he townread me then I'd be pocketing him. Often involves keeping the player alive so that you can mislynch them later down the track.

oh then i dont know my vocab :/
mean buddying

Buddying and pocketing are different but pocketing generally involves buddying. Buddying can happen between any two players of any alignment since all it involves is people working together and encouraging one another, but when mafia buddy town it often happens because they perceive a townie to be a threat and want to try to ward that off. If you're mafia and someone is pushing on you it's often a very successful strategy to just buddy the shit out of them since it's harder to push on someone who seems to be reading you correctly and is ostensibly offended by your push than someone who is being nasty or ill-mannered, just a lovely part of human psychology that makes us instinctively empathize with manipulative sociopaths (or in the case of mafia, those playing the role).

[nancy]

how about the fact velox dragged RVS when RVS doesn't help town?

RVS does help town, though. There's a reason it usurped RQS as the go-to for gamestart content; behavior in RVS is alignment indicative and the process of randomly voting each other for some bullshit or another almost invariable leads to some number of reactions that turn into readable content. Part of the value of RVS is letting it develop naturally to see who does what with it where so functionally speaking the argument could be made without too much difficulty that your radical insistence on cutting it short is anti-town.

Like I get that you feel strongly about RVS being a pile of dogshit to shovel into the ditch of yesterday but the way you've gone about it isn't super conducive to your stated preference since if you want the game to get out of RVS one of the better ways to do that it is to simply start producing content and asking other people what they think of that content in a way that doesn't stifle thread activity exterior to your posting rather than telling people in a more or less directionless manner that they should be getting out of RVS and implying that they're doing it wrong if they disagree.

[nancy]

patrick2, uc voyager, brianskies and sheepsaysmeep all read town

Hey patrick2. Would you be able to provide some reasoning for whichever of those reads you feel most strongly about? How confident are you in each of those reads roughly speaking?

[nancy]

Brain Skies: I agree with the observation that UC Voyager trying to get out of RVS so much felt a little strange. Looks to be helping the town so far.

Could you expand on this read a little? In what ways do you feel he's helping town so far? Would you mind quoting which of his posts you're referring to wrt his observation? I'm a little unclear on what you're agreeing with there precisely.

UC Voyager: His read list didn't make sense. Honestly his posting is a little suspisous, making untrue assumptions about death tunnels, getting defensive when questioned. But he could just be a townie who made a mistake and got flustered.

By mistake you mean misreading the post? Would be very helpful if you could go over your reasoning here in more depth please, specifically a) what about his readslist didn't make sense? Something about it overall or one or two reads in particular or something else? b) what about the untrue assumptions is suspicious to you? (Also, which assumptions are you referring to, and why do you think they are untrue?) c) what about his defensiveness do you think comes from mafia / couldn't come from town? d) were those the two reasons for why you find his posting a little suspicious or were they separate points? Was there anything else or just those two points? d) I'd like if you could walk me through your thought process on where UC ends up in your reads; if you think he could be town who made a mistake what in his posting makes you lean that way and why? And if you're not sure how are you going to resolve the read? I'd like to get a better look at where your head's at here since I'm not seeing anything from you that would enable you to figure out whether or not UC is flustered town or #outed mafia and if you're town with a conflicted read here I think that should be somewhere near the top of your list of priorities in moving towards solving the game.

sheepsaysmeep: Making pushes on players, towny vibe, caught UC Voyager out with the death tunnel bait.

Would appreciate it if you were able to reconcile your UC read as stated here with your earlier thought that UC could be town; if you've been thinking about the possibility that UC is town here and there's enough doubt in your mind to bring that up then I'm a little unclear in your treatment of him here since obviously if he is town then he can't be caught out. Could just be an issue of wording and not something I'm hugely interested in but if you wanted to write a few words about that I wouldn't mind reading them at all.

[nancy]

I have a bit of downtime before I head to bed to go over the quicklynch from the Wishes game. In the spoiler are the votes where the quicklynch happened over the course of ~6 hours.

Spoiler:

So I'm going to be really lazy here and just jot down a couple of my thoughts.

lilangel I think is a good candidate for Lycan's scumbud, given that Lycan is scum (which I think he is). While I realise this is pretty poor form - looking for scumbuds without a flip - I just can't shake the feeling that the defense that lilangel jumped to was -so out of place- while Lycan was giving reasons for voting which seemed to be unsubstantiated - basically very poor reasons which don't make sense.

@smile - I don't think "admitting" that something is a defense of someone else's position is something that scum don't do. In my own experience as scum, making small concessions to progress a narrative (or to get oneself out of trouble by saying "well of COURSE I said that, what I meant was THIS", ahppens all the time. Particularly with regard to lilangel's dialogue there, it admitted it was saying I was being "too careful". Now when you say someone is "too [insert x here]" in the context of a mafia game, you are certainly saying that the person bears suspicion. No amount of backtracking changes that.

Lycan - you ignored my last post directed at you.

I'm enjoying garupto's entrance (perhaps there's some bias there) but the manner and effort coming into the game and annotating posts is noted. Likewise gioni's pressure.

I'm not thinking of voting out of lilangel / Lycan today. Considering there's another vote on Lycan, I'm moving there.

Open to questions etc.

UNVOTE: lilangel1
VOTE: Lycanfire

yeah heck it i'd be ok with this i still don't trust talah but lycan seems even worse sure

VOTE: lycanfire

VOTE: lycanfire
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Broadcast yor L-1 votes please.

UNVOTE: acicphoenix

VOTE: lycanfire

So I'm guessing that's a Lycan hammer.

Last words?

Vote Count 1.10

It’s not the destination, it’s the endless exhausting journey.

Lycanfire (5): garaputo, talah, Velox, lilangel1, ShafferMoon

acidphoenix (1)

: Lycanfire

Geoni (1)

: acidphoenix

ShafferMoon (1)

: smilefires

Not Voting

: Geoni

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-10-03 07:18:54)

Lycanfire,

Cop

, Lynched Day 1

Night 1 begins now and will last for 72 hours, or (expired on 2017-10-03 07:05:10).

Scum are Geoni and acidphoenix, meaning ShafferMoon's hammer post came from town (funnily enough, he unvoted mafia to hammer the cop). Shaffer's reasoning for the hammer was:

I hammered because I felt like we needed to get somewhere, sorry for the impatience. Ugh

Which is very, very terrible reasoning for any lynch. Impatience is never a reason to hammer someone and unfortunately ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ isn't ever a reason to lynch someone either. Unless you enjoy gamethrowing, pissing the rest of town off and making yourself lynchbait I'd very strongly encourage you to be a little more circumspect with your lynch votes than the newbies in that game were and a ton more open with your thoughts. Can't really overemphasize the latter point in particular.

Talking about your reasoning and thoughts on reads is how games get solved, so pretty much the more of it the better. If you're town in most cases there's not enough of a downside in being transparent and sharing just about everything you have on your mind with the rest of town to not do it. This is something that I think players on ms have a pretty difficult time with and is a big part of why town meta here is so weak; read through any non-newbie game here and you're almost always going to see a lot of town fighting each other, throwing votes around and arguing about who they want to lynch but not doing a lot of talking about their thoughts and reasoning and coming together around that to break down which thoughts and lines of reasoning are good and which don't really hold up, which I think is a much more useful way of doing things. Mafia's a game of conversation so where that doesn't happen games don't get solved and people get quicklynched, neither of which are enjoyable.

[nancy]

Did you think that my argument about lycan's behavior made sense and/or that I was responsible for that lynch?

That's not really something I'm able to answer without reading your post / the game and probably wouldn't start discussing it here since your reasoning for lynching lycanfire isn't relevant in any particular way that I'm aware of to this game, but broadly speaking I think if you're on a wagon you're responsible for that vote. If I think you have poor reasoning for anything in this game I'll talk to you about it when it happens.

[nancy]

I should've come back to this game sooner; would very much like it if people were doing a little less calling each other scum and more asking for and sharing their thoughts on things.

@Velox

putting UC to L-2 the way you did there isn't at all acceptable with the lack of reasoning from you so if you could talk about why you think that UC is mafia that would be pretty helpful. Haven't seen much of anything from you in the way of reads or thoughts about the game so if you're able to please work on changing that even if all that ends up being is talking about how you're reading UC's posts in the way that you are and why.

What made you change your mind on UC? Could you talk a little more about your UC read in a way that doesn't involve meta? If you think there's a chance he's town here are you able to go through his ISO and see where you might have misread him earlier and how that happened? Generally just needing something from you in the way of thoughts that I can get an alignment read off since flipping your read and saying you have a sudden realization about his town meta isn't very helpful to me in that regard.

@Brigadoon

re your 158, where did you go over the readslist before? I'm not seeing it in your ISO. I understand that it's early and more posting is going to allow reads to form but if you're town here you should be poking at things and presenting reasoning for why you're reading things in the ways that you are; don't think it's going to be helpful if you just wait for everyone else to produce content without contributing to it and I think a pretty good way to contribute would be to talk to UC about why you think there was mafia motivation in his posts and hear what he has to say about that. Imagine you're spending time with a friend; if neither of you speak to each other nothing's going to happen and you're both going to grow bored very quickly but if you start sharing what's been on your mind then you're going to have a much more productive and fulfilling time together.

Game has to start somewhere so saying it's too early to have anything concrete isn't helpful. Let's imagine if you don't get UC's alignment solved before the end of the dayphase then you die; how are you going to go about solving for that and where do you start? Passing over his early content that you find suspicious isn't going to get you anywhere and I'm not understanding why you're not concerned about your read on his slot when you've already identified a few things that could go either way depending on how you end up reading his motivation. If you're town your life depends on you solving the game and if you're mafia your life depends on you appearing town so either way talking to people about their content is going to benefit your wincon if you do it well.

Last bit is that you haven't answered the question about why UC misreading sheep's post is suspicious to you; why do you think it's more likely that scum!UC misreads that post and thinks that sheep wants to tunnel him? Can you think of an example where mafia have done that? Is there something that strikes you about the way that he did it in particular or is there something generic about misreading or misreading in that way that you think is scummy? Something else?

@garaputo

what makes you confident enough that Velox is scum to want to doublevote him? Run me through your reasoning there? Also would like to hear why you think I'm town at this point; if I told you that I've not lost a game as mafia would that affect your read at all and if so why?

@patrick2

would like it if you could talk more about why you think Velox is mafia here; not liking his push on UC and thinking it's opportunistic are fine reasons for a surface read but I definitely would be looking for more in-depth thoughts on that if you have a strong enough read to want to kill the slot. If you're not sure where to start, what about the push feels opportunistic and why do you think it comes from mafia? Going to need to hear some expanded thoughts on that rather just than saying that it's opportunistic if I'm going to believe that this is a genuine read from you.

[nancy]

Game has to start somewhere so saying it's too early to have anything concrete isn't helpful. Let's imagine if you don't get UC's alignment solved before the end of the dayphase then you die; how are you going to go about solving for that and where do you start? Passing over his early content that you find suspicious isn't going to get you anywhere and I'm not understanding why you're not concerned about your read on his slot when you've already identified a few things that could go either way depending on how you end up reading his motivation. If you're town your life depends on you solving the game and if you're mafia your life depends on you appearing town so either way talking to people about their content is going to benefit your wincon if you do it well.

I don't really like this line of questioning it's too speculative and weird. If I get night killed there isn't anything I can do about it so why even think about it? I haven't passed over my reads on anyone, I am playing the game and analysing who I think is the most likely to be scum. I can't solve UC's alignment or anyone's at this point, nobody knows who is who except scum. I can only give my best guess.
VOTE: nancy

Not saying you get nightkilled, talking about a hypothetical world where you have to get a correct read today or you lose; a little souped up but those are basically the stakes in play when you're town. Shrugging and say why think about it always results in a loss and since we're obliged to play to our wincon playing to lose looks like a sign that you're scum; scum can't solve the game because the game is already solved for them. Your attitude here for instance is somewhat scummy because you're refusing to engage in solving the game and arguing for why you shouldn't have to be solving the game and becoming aggressive towards me for trying to help you towards being able to solve it. Your vote on me is also somewhat scummy given that you haven't put forth any reasoning for why I might be scum or displayed what the thought process was that led you to think that I'm mafia. Those two things don't automatically make you scum because town behave in scummy ways as well which is all part of the difficulty of solving but it certainly doesn't help me get a correct read on you if you are town, which should be one of your main objectives given that the rest of town has to solve the game as well and you behaving as town as possible directly helps them to be able to recognize that you're town. Does that make sense?

What do you think about Brian Skies' potshot at me for not talking about my reads so far?

[nancy]

Well I've been talking my opinions rather avidly so your potshot is even more silly for the specification.

[nancy]

I have a weird way of blending my stances into my questioning a lot of the time, and yeah walls are where I live.

[nancy]

Reading your posts this game is like watching a Nacho coaching session on steroids.

Lmao. Something must be wrong with the steroids, then.

[nancy]

Of course every time I post a wall I think why the fuck didn't I add more line breaks

[nancy]

I should've come back to this game sooner; would very much like it if people were doing a little less calling each other scum and more asking for and sharing their thoughts on things.

Can I do both at once? I prefer that.

Yeah but a little less of the former which isn't super helpful at this point and a little more of the latter which people don't seem to be doing much of would be very A+.

@garaputo

what makes you confident enough that Velox is scum to want to doublevote him? Run me through your reasoning there? Also would like to hear why you think I'm town at this point; if I told you that I've not lost a game as mafia would that affect your read at all and if so why?

Well my reaction to 140 was pretty direct. I have said that it was not a pro town action 142 and voted.

The response in 159 was exactly what I expect from someone who doesn't want to be held accountable - avoidance. Which is why my 160 reflected a wish to double down on the vote.

I have since then reiterated that I thought that post didn't reflect a town mindset 176, something that again has not been directly addressed.

Why don't you think it reflects a town mindset? Can you run me through precisely how you're reading those in terms of mafia motivation? Like exactly why is it not a pro-town action and why does it not being a pro-town action mean that it's coming from mafia? I need more than what you've given me here because I'm not seeing your actual thoughts on the page so much as a summary of what happened.

I'm also especially interested to hear why those points have given you such a strong read; confidence in your reads is good but a very strong scumread that you're doubling down on based on only two posts is pretty exceptional so I would hope to hear some pretty exceptional reasoning behind it; the only clear reasoning I think you've given me is that Velox is mafia because he didn't want to be held accountable; that's not good or helpful behavior but I wouldn't call it an alignment tell on its own and under the circumstances I don't find it convincing as a reason to scumread Velox at all. So if you do find it very convincing I hope you'd be able to show me why you do so that I can understand better where you're coming from.

Regarding why I think you are town, perhaps call it gut, but I don't get a sense that you are trying to push any specific outcome today, something that you could easily do in your position. While it is true that from a neutral point of view, it is easy enough for a scum you to ask for the sorts of things that you are asking for, it is also true that the sorts of things you are asking for align well with things that should help the town win.

Do you think that applies to anyone else as well? Do you think it's possible that mafia could also not try to push any specific outcome or are mafia always trying to push a specific outcome? How does that differ from town who have their own agenda based on their reads and are trying to push a specific outcome, presumably their scumread to get lynched? Bunch of questions here but pretty important ones; really would like to get some insight into your process and how you're determining that these things are something that couldn't come from mafia.

As for the last bit - I don't think very highly of results oriented thinking. Tf it is true that you have never lost as scum, it matters to me less the fact that you've not lost as scum than *why* you've not lost as scum. For instance if the reason why is that you've never been scum, that wouldn't be very useful information. There is a lot of variance in the outcome of these games, and it takes a large sample size for that information to be statistically relevant.

I'm very new to mafia; I've been playing for just over a year now and have only ~20 games under my belt (have probably spectated dozens more, something I definitely encourage you to do if you want to learn the game faster). I'm no more than decent as a player but I'm improving and always working to get better and since pretty much the beginning scum has been my preferred alignment and something I do better at and feel more comfortable with; when I'm scum I feel in control and untouchable and I lead my teams. People have told me that I have a very strong scumgame and while I believe that I may have potential all my wins as scum have been against pretty mediocre towns so while I don't mistake them for thinking that it's more of a "well congrats you won in little league" and not something I put a lot of stock into.

That said in all my scumgames except one where I had my team bus me because I didn't want to play anymore and one where I was confirmed scum to a townie in LyLo I've never been voted by a townie and all of them except the aforementioned bus game have been perfect wins; I've found it very easy to be townread and am extremely difficult to lynch as either alignment and I do have the ability to produce just about any manner of content as scum which means everything I'm typing right now is something I could pretty easily produce as scum.

[nancy]

garaputo is gut scum from tone
hard to explain but i'll try if anyone wants me to

Please do!

Gut should be something that informs and leads you to pursue reads, not something that comprises the whole or majority of the read. It isn't reliable and it's not really something you should expect to be very accurate (especially since you're more prone to confirmation bias when you're dealing with feelings). If you get a gut feeling about something, that's your queue to investigate and figure out why you felt that and go through your reasoning to arrive at as solid read as you're able with the information you have and usually to follow up on that by hashing out your read with the player or players in question and hopefully getting feedback from your townreads as well.

[nancy]

Brigadoon

- 6/10 through a quick iso i see some game solvign motivation from this slot

Could you expand on this a little? I'm more than a little curious about your take here especially given the most recent content from the slot. Why do you think they voted me and is that reasoning (if any) understandable to you? If you feel up to heroics, give their ISO more than cursory read-through while referring back to the game thread for context and highlight for me precisely what about their content displays solving motivation and why and whether there is any content that doesn't display that.

[nancy]

Brian Skies

- 6.5/10 whenever he has thoughts i usually agree with them or understand where theyre coming from especially 217, and gut

217 is a post that has no bearing on alignment; he's comparing my posting style to Nachomamma8 (which isn't fair at all to Nacho). If you disagree please elaborate on exactly why you think that post doesn't come from Brian Skies if he's scum. Gut is also not reasoning that I can follow at all so it would be helpful if you go into that read a little more with some thoughts that can help me get into your head a little, even if it's just one sentence.

[nancy]

@Brigadoon

You/garaputo/Brian Skies probably my strongest leads right now; don't find your read on UC to be understandable and you've been pretty resistant to talking in more depth about that so until I see something from you that convinces me that you actually are reading things the way you say you are there then you're probably going to be squarely below null for me; don't think your vote on me and how that happened makes any sense coming from town and really struggle to follow the thoughts you've presented on the game so far. Don't really see that changing unless you start engaging with the concerns and questions I've raised.

Don't find garaputo's read on Velox to be very understandable and struggle to see how he's reading into Velox's alignment in the way that he is; the reasoning he put forth really doesn't match the strength of read he's displayed; definitely looking forward to hearing back from him on that to hopefully get a better read on him and watching him try to solve the game over the course of the dayphase. Also think there's been ~2-3 things he's done outside of that that point it being possible he's mafia here that I'll mention at a later point; acting against my general preference for transparency here because I'm hoping that someone else mentions them which help me get a better read on that player + as IC I have to juggle not overly influencing other people's reads by talking about my own to the fullest extent.

Also don't think Brian Skies has done anything that feels town; don't really find the reads he's stated so far to be very believable and haven't seen any reasoning from him that would suggest that he's genuinely looking to solve the game here; his push on UC contained reasoning that seemed justified but didn't really highlight why Brian Skies thought that UC's posting showed real mafia motivation. Haven't seen many thoughts on the game from him and his most recent vote on acidphoenix looks like open wolfing that I guess I'm supposed to write off for the ironic troll persona he's adopting there; think that if he's mafia here he's voting someone he expressed suspicion of in his earlier post in order to seem like he has genuine reads but I've not seen anything from him that would make me believe that he genuinely thinks acidphoenix could be mafia here.

Honorable mention to patrick2; think that the point acidphoenix raised about him having a bunch of early townreads is a good one but think that patrick2's later post clarifying that the read on UC was the only one of any real strength makes me mostly fine with that in particular; definitely wanting to see more from the slot in the way of thoughts and reasoning on the reads he's put forth so far.

[nancy]

Thanks for the clarification; must have misread that post. Unfair to Nacho because I'm nowhere near his level. Sorry that you feel walled to death; I can try to scale them back or provide tl;dr's but it's how I play /shrugs.

[nancy]

PS if you have anything you feel like sharing about what you think would make my walls more palatable for you I'd always love to hear it; when I say it's how I'm play I don't mean that I'm going to do my thing and fuck anyone who doesn't like it, but I don't think it would be right for me to become a different player simply because I'm in a newbie game and I don't really know how to play seriously any other way. Also don't really have any intention of going easy on the newbies even if I am obviously dedicating a lot more of my posting to coaching and giving them queues than I would be in a non-newbie game.

[nancy]

Thanks for the response garaputo, I'll read it and get back to you likely tomorrow.

@Brian Skies think you'll find that my posts where I talk about my reads in a non-questioning way tend to be pretty compact; it's the posts where I dig into other people's content and try to talk to them about what they're thinking/feeling about the game that end up being pretty long. Fair few IC posts on top of that where I have a lot that I feel I need to put down for the newbies to get their head around.

[nancy]

@garaputo

the explanation for your mindset read on Velox makes sense but I think you've failed to explain how that behavior comes from mafia and doesn't come from town; I've personally seen a ton of town players provoke people for their own amusement and I think if you're reading alignment into it there has to be more than what you've given here. Couple other things still giving me pause there:

a) the strength of your read in relation to the amount of content from that slot is in my opinion exceptional and if you don't think it's exceptional could you lay out why for me? If that involves citing meta from mtgs where you've gotten hard reads from very little content as town that's acceptable but also think you should be able to argue in clear terms without that why you feel a hard scumread from ~2-3 posts here isn't exceptional; e.g., talking to Regfan yesterday he highlighted for me why he felt a particular post was scummy and how he got a strong scumread from it, think that was pretty exceptional but the depth of his explanation matched the read; not looking for lots of words from you, just something that helps me see that the behavior you're seeing strongly comes from mafia and not town; I think your desire to emphasize your vote on Velox lines up well with your earlier stated preference for using your vote to sign that you're serious but what I'm not understanding here is why and what that means to you;

b) while I can believe you genuinely think that that behavior comes from mafia based on your explanation, you're saying in the next paragraph down that you think it's anti-town behavior, which is it and where's the mix-up there coming from? Very aware that Velox's behavior is anti-town and that's really where my confusion is coming from since I don't think that anti-town behavior alone merits a strong scumread.


My question, "Do you think that applies to anyone else as well?", is referring to anyone else in this game; if you're not sensing that I'm trying to push any specific outcome is there anyone else here who also isn't trying to do that? Basically a leading question because I'm wondering why you're townreading me for this and not other players and the followup for this that I was going to ask when you responded but I'll do it now was why that alone is enough of a reason to give me a townread this early. Also not seeing you questioning the basis for that read at all even after I've told you that if I were mafia I very probably would not be letting slip any agenda which is what you're townreading me for so why are you not concerned that you're being pocketed here?

Cute kitten for levity:


The other things I was looking at that I felt were mildly scummy were your response to Brigadoon's readslist mentioning that you'd pointed out two flaws not one in UC's argumentation; think that's scummy because you don't seem interested in understanding her there nor in challenging any of her positions which I think you would be more inclined to do if you were trying to sort her alignment; think this also shows in your earlier 92 to UC where you've responded with a passive take on his post that doesn't really comment in any substantive way and doesn't display any interest in what's going on between UC and sheep wrt the tunnel and people scumreading UC for that. Not really understanding the tack you're taking in your follow-up to that in 134 or why you think that line of questioning will help you sort UC's alignment.

And finally I think the way that you play both sides of the argument in 143/145 without seeming invested in either in any way that makes me feel like you're really interested in digging into what they're thinking about the game to get a read on them is at least a little bit more likely to come from mafia than town here. None of these are strong points but they're definitely things I'm noticing and keeping in mind as I continue to try to assess my read on you.

[nancy]

Nothing else I need to add at this stage.

If you could answer my question to you in 203 that would be super helpful.

[nancy]

Liking the back-and-forth between garaputo and Brigadoon last page / top of this page; this is the kind of digging into each other's thoughts that I think will help us solve the game so definitely hoping to see more of that kind of exchange where two people sit down and talk out their thoughts with each other.

[nancy]

(Even if it was mostly theory talk.)

[nancy]

going back to that question since it was brought up again and i never answered it

it's really just as simple as i realized i was (probably) misreading him for exactly the same reason i misread him his previous game

/shrug

Could you talk a little about what you misread him for in the previous game and what he did here that's like that?

[nancy]

It also reads as though you had some sort of suspicion on him, but you don't even bring him up as an honorable mention here. I get if you're just waiting for his response, but a lack of a response shouldn't merit a change in read. I also see that you're scumreading Garaputo (or I guess Patrick), but unless you just strongly think Gara (or Patrick) is scum here, I don't really understand why you dropped this.

If you think Velox is more likely to be town here, can you walk me through on why that is?

I'm not very suspcious of UC if that's who you're referring to; not anything close to sold on him being town by any means but I think the way he argued for leaving RVS and his whole attitude around that and treatment of it was understandable and felt mostly genuine and while there are a few posts in his ISO that give me pause I don't think there's a ton of mafia motivation in the content he's put forward so far. Don't think it's a read I'm going to be able to feel good about until a little later in the dayphase.

I'm not sure why you're thinking I dropped anything as I've been waiting for a response; don't think either patrick2 or Velox had posted since my question at that point. Don't strongly think anyone is mafia right now, I tend to develop reads fairly slowly and like to take my time to interact with everyone. Velox is largely null for me at this point.

[nancy]

Firstly I don't actually believe that you want to understand why I voted and why I'm confident about it, because I've told you insist on asking me to manufacture something else retroactively.

Not sure I understand what you're saying in this sentence, specifically the "because"; could you try rephrasing it?

Secondarily just because I'm confident in it early doesn't mean I have to have some extraordinary reason. I realize that you wish to make me dance to some tune of your making and decline to do so. Regardless of my confidence in my vote, the actual impact is *one vote* and if you think I'm wrong or don't believe my read is genuine, then do what you want with that.

Think that if you have a strong read you should have strong justification and I'm not sure why you find that disputable. I'm not trying to make you dance to any tune; trying to dig into the reasoning and thoughts you've presented because I don't understand them. If you're town here it's in your benefit to help me sort you; saying "not going to and it's your problem if you don't understand" isn't much different to the kind of behavior you've said is anti-town and for which you're scumreading Velox so I'm very ??? about that, don't think it's reasonable at all of you.

I think you apply Occam's razor here: the simplest explanation for anti town behavior is anti town goals. Specifically the sorts of outcomes that come from provoking people: irritated people lashing out, something that can usually be used to drum up some sort of scum case or false outrage.

Anti-town is a little different to pro-scum in that anti-town is something that doesn't directly benefit town but doesn't necessarily directly benefit scum either; the behavior you're describing absolutely can and does come from scum but it can also come from town so there needs to be more than just that as reasoning for a scumread. Very much struggling to see how this is something you genuinely believe here.

More importantly note how velox has played since then. Velox is clearly not trying to help the town, I'm quite happy with the current trend towards lynching velox.

Could you lay out for me exactly why you think Velox is clearly not trying to help the town and why that makes him mafia? Think he's done about as little as Brigadoon or patrick2 or acidphoenix have done to help town so what's the difference between Velox and those three players that's leading you to read him as mafia over them and why is that sufficient reason to kill him?

You are injecting your assumptions into your questioning here. You are asking me if I am townreading anyone else to then in the next sentence wondering why I'm not townreading others. This shows you've just short circuited your own questions and starting working off the assumed answer.

Think you've not understood me (or if you have are deflecting). I'm looking at your townread on me and the reasoning you've given for that read and I'm seeing other players who I think also exhibit that behavior and I'm not seeing you townread them and I'm wondering why that is; if your reasoning for townreading me is something you really believe then I'd think you should also be townreading those players, and if there are other reasons for why you aren't then that's what this line of questioning from me accomplishes in finding out.

Don't think I've made any assumptions here that undermine my questioning and I'm not sure I understand why that's your approach to this interaction or how you think any of this gets us anywhere. Not getting the feeling you're interested in engaging with me honestly here.

I am fairly confident right now that your motives are good for the town, which is a fine reason for townreading you for now, regardless of whether you feel that is sufficient.

Not sure I understand how this lines up with the rest of your post; you've spent the past few paragraphs attacking my questioning and deflecting from answering my questions because you think they're misleading and bad so I don't understand how that connects with me having good motives unless your intention here is to just start buddying me while discrediting my attempts to understand you and get a read on you.

Read that aloud to yourself and realize how terrible the linkage you have between (literally correcting factual errors) and (not interested in understanding or challenging).

What I was looking at was the lack of contribution and you focusing on more or less negligible details in lieu of more meaningful points; it's me reading into you feeling that a marginal error about yourself is more important than anything else Brigadoon put forth in that post; don't understand at all the point you're trying to make about linkage or how that's relevant.

I dispute the presumption that a simple post to correct fact precludes simultaneously wanting to know more about the same post or other posts. Just because I haven't come out of the gate asking everyone every possible question I have in mind doesn't mean that I don't have those questions.

If you have those questions the only way to show other people that you have them is by putting them out there; can't read your mind so it's entirely your job to show other people what you're thinking about the game. Those questions are also not going to be answered unless you do put them out there so if you do want to get a read on people that would be a great way of going about it, no?

Again, you are assuming that every post I make has to be solely for the purpose of determining someone's alignment, where here it is clear I am looking to understand (and possibly correct flaws in) someone else's thought process.

Not assuming that at all. That's not really the sense I got from that post, if you're town and I'm misreading that could you explain how/what you were looking to understand about his thought process there and generally just give me a little more insight / something to work with? You telling me I'm wrong isn't going to help me understand you, regardless of whether it's true or not.

I again flatly refute that every post of mine has to be digging into people in order to get a read. My assessment of people's motivations can come from many places, and what motivates a person emerges holistically from the things that they consider relevant. If I am pointing out that I feel something being asked is irrelevant, I'm offering other people a data point on me.

I'm not at all saying that every post has to be digging into alignment nor was that a premise of any part of my reasoning; I think that the things I highlighted were relatively scummy because I think commenting on things that look to be irrelevant to the matters at hand and which don't contribute to discussion and appearing to not be invested in scumhunting are things that are generically more likely to come from mafia.

Also not sure how your reads emerging holistically adds up with your hard scumread on Velox; don't think you've seen nearly enough from him to be able to get a sense of his motivation in that way so that in particular from you is very ??? and need to hear more about what you mean there if I'm going to understand you here at all.

tl;dr I think you're doing a lot of deflecting and trying to derail my questioning rather than just talking to me in a straightforward and honest way here.

[nancy]

tl;dr I think you're doing a lot of deflecting and trying to derail my questioning rather than just talking to me in a straightforward and honest way here.

Quote for Brian Skies emphasis.

[nancy]

The above literally took a few posts where I was clarifying things and said "since you're clarifying things, you obviously aren't trying to figure out alignment" which I think is very weak sauce.

If you're town and genuinely think that please go back and reread the post in question; the points I raised in that section were as stated pretty minor points and not things I felt were hugely alignment indicative; nowhere do I use the kind of "obviously aren't" language and I'm not interested in making you look bad, I'm interested in trying to understand you and I brought up those points because you seemed to want me to. Sorry if you're feeling unfairly treated.

However the question I would like to ask is, why the double standard between arguing for transparency in posts like 129 and then not being transparent yourself in 239?

Why shouldn't you act in the same way you are advising everyone else. I dispute that the above points would have been so overwhelmingly powerful as to have biased other's evaluation of me, and even if it were, isn't sharing it anyways what you argued for in 129, as the downside is outweighed by the upside?

I explained this briefly in that post but I intentionally didn't comment on them because they're weren't hugely important and there's a certain level of "the IC said this therefore it holds more weight" even if I'm really just another player in this game with extra responsibilities; I have to juggle talking about my reads and letting newbies get their own reads without that influencing them.

The upside is that I don't comment on absolutely everything to the point that no one else has anything to talk about and maybe get some kind of w/w or not w/w read from it if someone does pick up on them without me, the downside is... not really anything since it's something I'd bring up eventually regardless and doesn't become irrelevant for time passing.

[nancy]

Walls are fun tho

[nancy]

Yeah this isn't a real conversation as long you continue to twist things I've said and turn my questions back on themselves.

[nancy]

Yeah this isn't a real conversation as long you continue to twist things I've said and turn my questions back on themselves.

Just ask me what you want to ask then? Like directly?

I'm not sure how to ask more directly than what I have. I don't find the reasoning for your scumread on Velox to be understandable and I don't find the reasoning for your townread on me to be understandable; I raised a bunch of specific ways in which you could resolve these points and went into a lot of detail as to what those issues were and where they were coming from; have also brought up some discrepancies in your posts that confuse me.

You strongly scumread Velox based on anti-town behavior, not scum behavior, as I understand the read; this is not good reasoning and you've not made me believe that you really do hold this read beyond insisting that you do. You townread me based on not seeming to have an agenda, as I understand the read; this is super vague and could be applied to basically anyone you chose and you've not resolved that or shown why I should think your townread is real. When I've raised these points you've done what looks to me like a lot of deflecting and discrediting and saying a bunch of words that don't really mean anything. Have seen practically zero from you in the way of reasoning on your reads.

Do you have any reads outside me/Velox that you can talk about?

[nancy]

UNVOTE: town v town?

What makes you think that?

[nancy]

Eh, I shouldn't say zero reasoning, it's the basis for that reasoning that I'm missing.

pedit if you care about the game being solved you should be working with other people, especially your townreads; saying you refuse to work with me is ??? and you can say you don't care but if I mislynch you then both of us are going to care very much. Like, I ask you questions and you basically say "I don't have to answer that if I don't want to you're doing it wrong". Not helpful to me at all doesn't do anything to convince me you're town.

[nancy]

I'm not interested in going through your posting point by point establishing how you're deflecting etc. as that's very likely just going to lead to a bunch of apathy and doesn't help me get a better read on you.

Fyi am not frustrated so if you're sensing frustration in my posts your tonal radar needs nancy adjusting.

[nancy]

Sure. Again care to be more specific about who'd you like to talk about?

Whomever you feel like talking about the most.

[nancy]

You know you've been doing a *very* effective job of taking the time I would be spending doing other useful things and putting them into reassuring you that what I actually believe is what I actually believe.

You've seemed really happy to be on one side of the questions and not really willing to answer my questions going back.

Only reason we're still here talking about this is that when I first asked you some pretty basic questions you turned it into a wallfest and started making it about a bunch of things that are very irrelevant.

Have put forth a sizeable post answering a bunch of your content so I'm not really sure where you're coming from on the latter point.

[nancy]

I would bet this entire game on patrick2 being town.

Dare I ask how you arrived at that read?

[nancy]

I would bet this entire game on patrick2 being town.

Dare I ask how you arrived at that read?

I've cleverly hidden it in a discussion you've breezed over as "theory"

Lol. And I hadn't forgotten. But you didn't display the type of read there that you'd bet the game on so what changed?

[nancy]

Thanks, that makes sense even I very much disagree that it should equal betting the game that he's town. Do you have some games on mtgs of yours that I could look at? 1-2 of mafia, 1-2 of town?

[nancy]

garaputo/Brigadoon what are your thoughts on UC? Find it very difficult to believe the progression from 238 ->297 -> 314/316 and think the way that he approached the exchange between garaputo and me to be very much what I would expect from mafia not knowing which side to take and wanting to benefit from both / incite argument with no real purpose; also don't find a few of his other reads very understandable and am somewhat less willing to write it off as playstyle after the above.

[nancy]

Fyi we're heading into the middle portion of the dayphase so this is the period where everyone should be working to get reads on ~2-3 players they suspect may be scum and work out which one of them they think have the highest chance of being mafia. You're never going to sort the whole board in one dayphase but if you end up with 1-2 townreads that you feel confident in, 1-2 townreads that you're less confident in and think need shoring up in future days and 1-2 scumreads that you feel good about lynching with everyone else in a "to sort" pile you're doing very well for day 1.

[nancy]

I watch UCV replace into my role as town in the game I was in last. I find his play consistent with his town play in that game so far.

Link please? Have you seen him play mafia?

[nancy]

I've been reading you and everyone for the entirety of the game regardless of whether I've been talking about it; asking those two because they're online right now and have been interacting with me and would like to get a better read on them in particular given I'm feeling very nebulous about their slots right now. Feel like saving garaputo the work and linking me some of your towngames and scumgames?

[nancy]

Feel free to respond to the question I asked the others re UC in 324 sheep

[nancy]

Oh it was that game? I only looked at the quicklynch wagon, thanks though. I'm guessing I have to rummage through your thread history on my own?

Fyi that's not fence-sitting, fence-sitting is when someone avoids taking a stance on something.

[nancy]

Not really sure I'm seeing what you are garaputo. I find pretty much everything from him there to be mostly understandable and easy to follow; the only time his reads moved drastically was when he reread the game which isn't unusual at all.

[nancy]

Refusing to take an official stance unless it is my full play style

The difference between me questioning a certain aspect of my read on you and fence-sitting is that I'm not refusing to stance on your alignment; it's not really a term you can apply to the process of scumhunting so much as the stances that form from scumhunting (or from whatever, not necessarily just scumhunting).

[nancy]

Are you saying you feel those things don't apply to him here?

Yeah.

[nancy]

Give me a little and I'll lay out everything I'm looking at in his ISO.

[nancy]

right now, it would be hard to meta read me because im currently trying to revise and change my play style, so things like Wishes doesn't happen again

Things like town losses, you mean? Or something else?

[nancy]

@UCV I pass the baton. Perhaps your argument about this will go off better than the walls of text nancy and I posted past one another.

Very much don't expect to get anything out of UC in the way of thought processes like I hoped to get from you so I'm not sure that's going to be likely.

[nancy]

Oh Plot was scum that game after all thank god.

[nancy]

Eh. "Why are you so confident from just a couple posts?" - "Because that's how I play I make hard reads off next to nothing there's nothing else to it" would've been very informative and is more or less where I've ended up on you given your patrick2 read. "I don't need to explain and there's nothing unusual about my read" which is where you went is what led us in circles, in my opinion. Don't think disputing and trying to undermine my line of questioning is being pretty open but it's really not worth pursuing at this point.

[nancy]

right now, it would be hard to meta read me because im currently trying to revise and change my play style, so things like Wishes doesn't happen again

Things like town losses, you mean? Or something else?

so i can avoid being confbias and lynchBait a lot.
I mean
if i had to say, my best town game was The Hero We Deserve. I was a universal town read and hammered the final scum in the last day.

Thanks, will read.

If you feel like it you could talk about some specific ways in which you're trying to change your game? Like did you identify anything in particular that you think could be causing you be confirmation biased and such?

If you're having trouble with being lynch bait there are definitely ways you can go about solving that and a couple of the best I would say are to a) not just blurt out all of your thoughts as soon as they come to you into the thread but to take a little time to think about things, then present them clearly and in a way that other people can understand, and b) be transparent/complete in how you're getting to your reads and show people the full process from A->B that led you to think someone is or may be town/mafia.

[nancy]

Gonna renege on laying out my issues with UC until tomorrow; too much nancy over the past few pages.

[nancy]

Nothing else I need to add at this stage.

If you could answer my question to you in 203 that would be super helpful.

/me pokes patrick2

Can add to that line how your change in read on UC has affected the read if at all

[nancy]

previous game he got most people to think he was scum because of his tendency to completely panic as soon as any pressure was on him at all

and this kind of looks like that

What about his content since then? Assuming you're referring to the way he responded to people scumreading him for his stuff around RVS. Would encourage you to try to find more ways to get a read on him here because meta is a very unreliable means of reading people to say the least.

[nancy]

nancy @ 239 a. when did i point out a bunch of townreads as an sr reason for patrick2
b. how the hell was your reaction to that "yeah that's a good reason"

Spoiler: a)

mostly ucvs game is filled with cringeworthy generically wolfy things, and Patrick seems noobish enough that simultaneously having a bunch of trs already and one of them being ucv seems weird, especially if he hasn't played with ucv

b) very early in the game, some of the first content from patrick2 and you both, think that the reasoning you gave of "suspicious of calling 3 people including this superficially scummy person town instantly" is pretty fair at that point; problems with it are that it wasn't what you stated originally and you haven't looked any further into it / followed up at all / seemed to reevaluate after his clarification but the bald reasoning itself that you gave I think was fine for the stage of the game we were in.

[nancy]

Nancy, why do you continue to ask Gara quesions ? As an IC, wouldn't you be more interested in the quesions they ask you? A lot of your quesions and statements your making to Gara do not help progress the game.

I continue to ask questions because I continue to want to sort him. I'm very interested in what questions he has for me, what makes you think that asking questions prevents him from asking questions, since that's what you seem to be implying here?

What do you think progresses the game and why do my questions / statements to garaputo not fulfill that in your opinion?

[nancy]

ic answering questions is more for mechanics or what's scummy or that type of bs
reads/scumhunting questions shouldnt have anything to do with ic i think

Pretty much, yeah, since I'm the only person in the game who isn't allowed to lie about game mechanics so you know I'm always telling the truth regardless of my alignment. I also like to take on more of a teaching role in newbies though, which is why you see posts like e.g., 354, 341, 326, as well as generally my approach here being much more oriented around trying to get people to play in what I think is a pro-town way rather than simply focusing on my own game like I usually would. I definitely wouldn't lie to newbies about what good townplay is even if I were scum just a personal thing, but I'm not obliged to tell the truth there as IC.

[nancy]

I understand why you would want to sort him. I actually can see the tow behind that, but why did you have to do it in such a way that it prevented him from doing much other scum hunting?

Don't believe that I did it in such a way as to prevent him from doing other scumhunting aside from being insistent about getting answers from him; go up and look at 382 and I think you have an answer to a very simple question from acidphoenix very much in the same way I think the questions I asked him could've been given a very simple answer. Don't think me refusing to answer acidphoenix and telling him why his line of questioning was flawed would be helpful of me at all, which I think is more or less what happened in my exchange with garaputo.

Pretty much seeing it as a playstyle clash since garaputo doesn't seem to think about the game in the same way as me at all. You're going to see this kind of thing pretty frequently in mafia games outside the newbie queue whenever two people talk to each other and have conflicting ideas about the same thing.

[nancy]

UNVOTE: for the moment

Were you voting me? Why the unvote?

[nancy]

i can see what youre saying however i can see him being town in this situation

Elaborate on why if you feel like it?

What I'm pointing out aren't things that I think make him undoubtedly mafia so much as things I'm noticing are a little off and wanting to dig into and talk with others about so I can hopefully get a better read on him + them.

[nancy]

I've run out of time for today so I'll have to finish sorting through UC's ISO tomorrow; only about 1/4 of the way done with it. Mostly just sifting through his progressions so if anyone else wants to take a crack at making sense of how ~1-2 of his reads exist I'll give you an award for the effort and we can compare notes afterwards.

[nancy]

If you're going to quote stuff from 290, save yourself the trouble.

[nancy]

Sorry to hear that you're unwell.

[nancy]

Brigadoon why does it make sense to you to refuse to interact with acidphoenix because you think he's being anti-town when your own play this game has been very anti-town?

[nancy]

Going to dump a bunch of thoughts on UC behind a spoiler tag; haven't gone over his reads on all the slots on the table but still holding on to my fool's hope that maybe someone else in the game will do something. If you think there's anything you can help me understand UC by running me through your thoughts on what I've touched on I'd love to hear it.

Spoiler:

There's the progression on acidphoenix, most of which makes very little sense to me; the initial townread and the reasoning presented in 54 is a very big ??? given the content from acidphoenix up to that point + the follow-up read / reasoning looks like an excuse to townread him rather than something he really thinks makes acidphoenix town. Am looking at 58 and not understanding how the townread matches up with how strongly he was emphasizing getting out of RVS as town behavior. I'm not seeing how the townread, reiterated in 238 now on the basis of gut, is moving to a nullread in 367.

Basically think the whole way his read on acid progresses from apparently a strong meta read to thinking acid needs to post more to having him as probably town due to gut to having him as a nullread is really unfounded and going to take a lot of explaining to help me understand how any of that's real.

---

There's not a lot of data on his Velox read but the shift from weakly scumreading him in 154 to townreading him in 238 isn't explained and the wording in 238 very much suggests that this is a read UC had on Velox earlier in the game, which isn't in the case and looks like UC forgetting that he'd stated a scumread on the slot; think that the timing of the townread as a response to Velox backing off him makes more sense if UC is mafia scumreading anyone who he thinks is a threat. Also think the way he mentions Velox in 228 doesn't match with Velox being a scumread there.

I don't find it very believable that he's moved Velox back to null for not posting; not posting is very much not alignment indicative in and of itself and there are several other players who didn't post over that period; UC's read on them wasn't affected by this which makes it difficult to see as something that he genuinely thinks makes Velox more likely to be mafia.

---

Find his read on garaputo to be just as difficult to understand as the others; he's townreading garaputo from very early and it seems to be his strongest read before he drops it in 164 and says he doesn't know how to sort garaputo but probably scumreads him; 228 stands out here on the garaputo read as well, find it very difficult to believe that UC genuinely believes garaputo's push on Velox is a reason to scumread garaputo when UC is stating that exactly as a reason why it doesn't make sense for sheep to be scumreading Velox. Think there's only one scenario where this is something that I can believe to be real so if you could run me through what you were thinking there in detail UC that's the only way that I'm going to be able to hopefully resolve that.

Think the reasoning in 297 is mostly fine if somewhat skewed and a little confusing in how it's articulated but I'm very much struggling to see how that connects up with 316; the swing to listing him as a hard townread in 367 is unexplained beyond highlighting that one post and UC's previous concerns with the slot aren't resolved anywhere.

[nancy]

PS deadline in 8 days, really need people to start being more active and talking about their scumreads as we need to start thinking about who we're going to lynch in 3-4 more days. Bunch of bickering isn't going to help town get anything done so please try to be civil and treat each other nicely and respectfully.

[nancy]

garaputo I'm not going to respond to your 448 because the entire post consists of questions that are very much disingenuous, some of which I have moreover already addressed; just looks like an attempt to draw me back into the meaningless argument from earlier that got a couple people calling you town where you're twisting everything on its head and I see no way that any of that helps you sort me or understand me. Really think that you need to find a better use of your time and actually do something towards solving the game here because I've not seen anything meaningful from you in that regard.

[nancy]

in brief defense
1. it is hard to explain my town read on acid.
2. those 2 posts were nearly 100 posts apart. a lot can happen in 100 posts
3. my first read i did on gara was based off one post. then as he kept posting, i changed my mind


though i have a few quesions for velox


velox, why have you not been posting lately and why are the posts you make not really scum hunting?

Not interested in a defense so much as you showing me how those reads did progress and what your thoughts were so that I can gauge whether I think the way those thoughts progressed is something I find believable.

Even if your townread on acid is hard to explain can you at least give me some words in an attempt there or even just quote for me which posts triggered what read / change in read from you? If it's too hard to give any substance on the read itself, can you talk about why the read is hard to talk about?

Definitely don't find it strange for a read to change over 100 posts, what it's important to me is to be able to track how it changed; just as an example from two of the games you linked me, in your towngame your reads were generally pretty simple to follow and could understand how and where you were getting from A->B and even when there were wild swings I could see what was triggering that; in your scumgame though when your reads changed there was a lot of empty space where I'd been able to read into your thoughts in the other game and I didn't find those changes to be understandable at all as a result.

I'm looking at your reads here and I'm not seeing much progression if any, it's not quite the same as the scumgame I looked at in that your read changes don't look entirely scum motivated and I think there's potentially room there for you to be town having those changes but so far I'm struggling to see that world so definitely hoping that you'll be able to talk to me more about that and help me believe that those reads are real. Best way of helping me in that way is just being really transparent here and opening up your brain so that I can see inside.

If your gara read was based on one post which was it? You quoted two from him around RVS; if that changed over time can you help me track that change and what brought it about?

And if there's anything I can do to help you be able to give me that info any easier please let me know; more than able to bombard you with a spoiler full of very specific questions if that will help or to point out a few points in particular that I think need more emphasis if you prefer less detail or just set aside some time to sit in thread with each other and talk through stuff live together, or anything else that you think will gel with how you play.

[nancy]

I do not like your case. Some of the things you are calling scummy, i could see from a townie.

VOTE: Sheep
this isn't just gut. I see scum motive behind his posts. I do not see the townie in him at all.

So what makes him scum and not town who sees things differently to you? What scum motivation do you see behind his posts? Why is sheep talking about his scumreads him as scum trying to make people look bad and not town bringing up things he legitimately has issues with? How are you deciding the difference?

[nancy]

sheep what did you like about Velox's recent posts?

[nancy]

He had a TR on me before I voted for him, his motivation is to get rid of me because I am a threat to him. He is more concerned with survival than finding scum which is scummy.

Mind my asking what your read on UC is?

[nancy]

Or even why you were leaning town on him earlier?

[nancy]

sheep what did you like about Velox's recent posts?

kind of gut i think im using too much gut atm
he seemed to be openly posting openly and not really being afraid of being scumread
it's a really small townlean tho

Probably using too much gut yeah. Don't think that's bad reasoning though, so you're fine there imo.

[nancy]

Chainsaw is basically attacking someone in order to defend the person they're attacking.

It can be very blatant like if I were to attack Brigadoon's scumread on you or it can be more subtle like if I were to start pushing Brigadoon on other things while he was trying to push you in order to detract from his scumread/push.

[nancy]

If you'd actually meant the questions I think you'd have then read my posts for the responses. Don't think there's anything of an emotional appeal in there, not going to belabor this as I don't think it's going to be helpful to anyone at all. Suggest you start trying to solve the game if you're town here rather than focusing so heavily on getting into weird arguments with me as the more this continues the more I think your obsession is just because you've rolled mafia and don't know what else to do.

[nancy]

When the question I've asked you is who you most want to talk about for you to then turn and ask me who I want you to talk about isn't something that makes a lot of sense to me if you're town here; if you're mafia on the other hand then you're going to want to turn that question on its head in order to hopefully avoid having to give stances that may not fit with mine. When I've asked you to talk about a read that's important you, you asking me what's important to me is a very useless approach and for you to now say "why won't you answer me" makes very little sense at all and is all part of the backwards argumentation you've been using from very early in the game when I tried to dig into your mostly baseless Velox scumread.

[nancy]

I just did.

[nancy]

This whole approach is ridiculous from you; nowhere do you show signs of being interested in understanding me (or any player this game), just in winning one argument after another.

Have asked you repeatedly to do anything towards solving the game and you've been continually intent on doing nothing but rehashing old crap to the point that it looks like your only goal here is to steep the thread in apathy. The shoe has already been on the other foot, and instead of responding to me you've argued relentlessly and pointlessly.

I'm not interacting with you any further on this.

[nancy]

Im like pretty sure your both town, so if you could get along. it would really help UC Voyegers

What makes you think he's town?

[nancy]

doesnt question why he thinks she's town is :/

Say again? No make-y sense.

[nancy]

That's not really a reason why; also doesn't line up with your previously stated read that you were scumreading a decent portion of his early game?

[nancy]

Also had this bizarre fantasy of a Nancy/UC scumteam

Can I live in your fantasies please?

[nancy]

If anyone is townread garaputo at this point I absolutely want to hear about why because I am going to be really upset if I'm in a game with several players who are townreading someone who's done very very little in the game that makes sense coming from town and quite a bit that makes sense coming from mafia just because they don't know how to read through his walls. And if you're seeing something I'm not seeing I very much want to hear about what that is because he's my favored lynch right now and I'm not interested in any of the wagons being pushed so far so convince me on why your read is right and mine is wrong please.

[nancy]

Have gone over most of it but you'd have to have read the wallposts. I'll summarize it when I get the opportunity, hopefully tonight, but you not understanding my scumread shouldn't mean you aren't able to talk about your own read there for now if you have one.

pedit @Brigadoon

[nancy]

Man this game is so dead. Pretty much everyone refusing to talk about reads, really hope you've got something good in your pocket Brian because we're heading to a "lynch the lowest common denominator" type situation here that I can't see hitting scum leaving town lacking any good information for day 2, down and IC and probably very directionless with half the board lurking into policy lynch territory and I think mafia chances of winning in that situation are 90%+.

[nancy]

@Brigadoon

think lynching garaputo has a pretty good chance of hitting scum right now because the reads that garaputo has stated in thread are very difficult to believe if he's town here; look at the level of thought and consideration he's showing about his reads in the Wishes game and compare that to what he's stated here of "Velox is a hard scumread because he's tried to incite arguments" or his lock townread on patrick2 because he stated a few weak townreads early; both of those reads are extremely weak and he's not shown any amount of reconsideration there despite the Velox read being off two very early posts and there having being a bunch of things that have happened since then + he's completely ignored the points about his patrick2 townread that I think point out how flawed that read is.

Also the way that he's be relentless in getting into useless arguments with me and twisting my words left right and center is something that makes a ton of sense if he's mafia here and doesn't know how to produce content in the form of reads and is hoping to get into tiffs like that so that people think "much words, many fight" and write it off as TvT. The points he keeps trying to make are actually frankly garbage and if he were town I think he would've stopped a long time ago and tried to come to an understanding and work with me but instead he's continued in the vein of gaslighting.

tl;dr his reads are bad, he's not produced any content that actually helps solve the game and he's actively been trying work against solving the game and instead what looks like focusing on trying to make other people read him as town in his nonsense arguments with me.


Very much open to reconsidering this read if garaputo starts to actually solve the game like I've been trying to get him to do for a while now or if someone points out convincing reasons why he's town or why my read is wrong but with the flow of the thread so far that doesn't seem likely.

[nancy]

In most cases I'd agree with you on meta and think it's not reliable in most cases but I think this one of the exceptions where it's helped me a great deal to get a sense of the who he is as a player and the kind of thoughts he put out in that game are very very detailed right from the start and he clearly cared a great deal about what he was pushing by the way he even asked me in this game whether it was really his fault; there's none of that here so unless he doesn't care about this game at all and that's why there are no thoughts from him on players' alignments I don't think there's a good explanation for that difference other than him being mafia.

[nancy]

Your point is valid I just think the difference is so drastic that it's very much relevant here.

[nancy]

And yeah thanks for contributing your thoughts on that.

[nancy]

How so? I'll go take a look.

[nancy]

meta changes
@bove

It's not so much a question of "meta changes" as "this player is capable of caring and doing far much more than he's doing here".

[nancy]

Think without the Wishes game to compare it to the point of his reads being very weak is still there but is ~10% less indicative of him being mafia since it's possible that holding those sorts of reads is just playstyle (at which point there are still issues with it but not to the same strength); since I have the other game I can see that it's not just playstyle so eliminating that from the picture leaves the interpretation of him being that much more likely mafia from it. Does that make sense?

[nancy]

(And you can't say he's not been putting in effort due to his arguments with me.)

[nancy]

Think you're very correct about Velox Brigadoon, have been writing him off as TWBAW, maybe wrongly so; do you think it's possible it's that he's demotivated due to last game? His spirit certainly seemed very crushed as that game progressed, although he's still talking about his reads even in the midst of that. Am very clueless as to how to reach him / get him to contribute more at this point.

[nancy]

PS your thoughts on acidphoenix? He's been kind of sitting as my number 2 for a while now and there's not a lot happening there so would appreciate more voices on that slot.

[nancy]

I wasn't pushing Brig/gara at that point, was just trying to talk with them / get better reads on them. Haven't pushed Brig at any point really, don't think he's very likely to flip scum.

If you could go into more detail Brian on your gara read that would be pretty helpful since what you've given me here looks like you haven't taken a deep look at what gara's actually done unless you've got a very different perspective there to me.

[nancy]

PS patrick2's done very very little but I don't think what he has done is particularly scummy, I imagine he'll be lynched day 2 or 3 when people can't agree on anyone actually producing content so /shrug. Think if garaputo is mafia patrick2 is never mafia.

[nancy]

Prefer to go over specifics after I've heard a little more about your perspective on it.

[nancy]

I love you.

Okay will now read it.

[nancy]

Putting this behind a spoiler wall since it's long and I don't intend for anyone to read it other than you.

Spoiler:

Agree with most of the stuff on him early though there's a few things you're townreading that I'm not comfortable with but the real difference in our views starts around 283; what I wanted wasn't something stronger or anything like that, I just had follow-up questions since there was stuff I didn't understand still. How does 277 read to you tonally? Because that's very much just me talking casually with garaputo and continuing on trying to dig into his head but his response in 283 is really hostile which really took me off guard.

To go into a little more detail, am interested to hear whether you think what I was asking in 277 warranted the kind of response he gave in 283, because as I'm looking at it I had really just two main questions for him there, why's the read so strong and what did he mean by anti-town, plus the follow-up on his townread on me which was partly clarification, wanting to hear about that and his process around it. Do you think those questions are unreasonable? You seem to be insinuating you do? Like he gave me the reasoning for his read and I ask him how that reasoning equals the strength of read he has because the reasoning seemed weak to me. So help me see which part of that is unreasonable scumhunting to the extent that his response in 283 is what it is?

I could go through and pick apart 283 and talk about all the problems I have with it for you if you like so that we can understand my issues here better but I'd prefer to not have to.

Very briefly the issues I have with 290 are that in response to me trying to figure out why his read is so strong and why the behavior he talked about in response to my first question only comes from scum (since I'm trying to challenge the reasoning that I disagree with) he's asking me why I even care and whether I think Velox is town instead of giving an answer, which seems very unreasonable to me.

Later in the post he's basically saying that my lack of understanding about his read is my fault and he's not going to talk about it because it's my fault? Do you think I'm reading that wrong? Referring to his "As for there needing to be more justification".

Then he misuses the concept of transparency (possibly an innocent mistake) to be a reason why I should be answering his question about who he should be townreading (rather than him just answering me straight about his reasoning for townreading me and who else that might apply to). Like it's very problematic for me to answer that since it directly undermines my line of questioning in sorting him and I think that should be fairly apparent?

And the rest of it is mostly just saying I'm wrong for asking him the questions I'm asking him and he's not going to cooperate. Few things that it looks like he's misunderstood or thinks I've emphasized much more than I intended to like the little tidbits about him not appearing invested.

If you think I'm sitting back with a little grin I've very much failed at communicating in a way you understand because I get no joy out of not understanding someone and no joy out of being misunderstood or in having these kinds of arguments. Am definitely perplexed as to why you think that's my attitude and would like to hear more about why you think I'm not interested in having a discussion / interested in hearing your take on what I've highlighted above since if that's something you're legitimately reading there then it might help me understand how he read it similarly.

I feel like there's the expectation in the position he's taken that you seem to be agreeing with that I should just accept his position at face value and not challenge it or dig into it and if that means my read on him is full of ??? then that's my problem, and that's something I very much disagree with; do you think that's accurate at all?

[nancy]

Also what is that gif from (if you know)?

[nancy]

It's a very simple, open-ended question designed to improve my understanding of your read while gauging how genuine your understanding is of your read. You're effectively asking me to tell you what your reads ought to be, as though the question is a test you can pass or fail. It's not.

[nancy]

There is no envelope, garaputo.

[nancy]

Never thought that'd be a sentence I'd be saying in a mafia game.

[nancy]

zzz

[nancy]

Nothing I've done has been done with the desire to fight with you garaputo. There's no core assumption, have not even thought about whether anyone in the game is operating with an agenda as I don't find that very AI personally, just wanted a better peek inside your head.

[nancy]

expect reading / posting / reads sometime at least 7 hours in the future

Would be very helpful as I don't find your slot very town right now and if you are town would prefer to be able to figure that out sooner rather than later so I can narrow my focus for the lynch today. /me gives you all of the motivation

[nancy]

My question, "Do you think that applies to anyone else as well?", is referring to anyone else in this game; if you're not sensing that I'm trying to push any specific outcome is there anyone else here who also isn't trying to do that? Basically a leading question

because I'm wondering why you're townreading me for this and not other players

and the followup for this that I was going to ask when you responded but I'll do it now was why that alone is enough of a reason to give me a townread this early. Also not seeing you questioning the basis for that read at all even after I've told you that if I were mafia I very probably would not be letting slip any agenda which is what you're townreading me for so why are you not concerned that you're being pocketed here?

Nothing I've done has been done with the desire to fight with you garaputo.

There's no core assumption, have not even thought about whether anyone in the game is operating with an agenda

as I don't find that very AI personally, just wanted a better peek inside your head.

Could you reconcile the underlined please?

Think you're reading into the phrasing of the first quote in a way that isn't accurate to my intentions. Can see how you're misreading it and maybe could've phrased it better but /shrug.

[nancy]

either the fight is staged or gara is a fucking idiot

Please don't use language like this.

[nancy]

This applies to you too nancy - you've had plenty of time to pick at least one player you think is scum and vote them by now.

Think I've said this before but I'm not likely to be putting down a vote until I'm comfortable with where I'm at with my reads; have a pretty good idea of where I'll be voting but still a couple slots I'm unsure on enough to not want to lock in a claim/lynch anywhere right now.

[nancy]

How has he misused it?

In that I think transparency refers to showing your complete thought process on a topic rather than showing all your thoughts immediately. Like if you're talking about your scumread and you omit 2-3 parts of the reasoning of how you got there, rather than holding back on talking about your scumread. Think the idea of transparency in mafia is more of a "when you talk, show it all", rather than "show it all always".

[nancy]

And now that Brian has responded I think I can say pretty confidently that garaputo's posting at the top of page 23 makes it very clear that his earlier posting was coming from confused and paranoid town rather than gaslighting mafia; on top of which his posts since then have looked like very decent gamesolving so I think I'm pretty comfortable slotting him as town.

@Velox

can you talk about why there's a pretty meaningful divergence in your game here to the Wishes game? You were talking quite a bit about your reads there and there's not much talk of your reads at all here to the point that you don't seem to have any at all; where's your head at right now re mafia? Your recent posts look a lot like open wolfing so if you're town here some thoughts on ~3-4 players with whatever reasoning you can manage, don't worry about whether you're wrong because that's not important, would hopefully go a long way to helping me see that.

[nancy]

What trouble are you having with them?

[nancy]

I agree with you that his push on you is defensive and incorrect but I'm not sure I understand what you mean about just wanting to survive day 1? Are there any posts in particular that give you that feeling? I have a bunch of issues with the slot myself but that didn't happen to be one of them.

What do you think of his early content around scumreading UC as that's one of the few points I think I could squint and see him being town?

[nancy]

I would settle for you telling me what your read is for each player then I guess. It feels to me a bit like you're prodding everyone else to move things along while dragging your feet some yourself.

garaputo
Brigadoon
Brian Skies
patrick2
UC Voyager
acidphoenix
sheepsaysmeep
Velox

In order of most likely to be town to most likely to be mafia.

[nancy]

He switched back to UC though.

[nancy]

Granted he wasn't actually scumreading him any longer at that point.

[nancy]

How does it seem opportunistic?

[nancy]

Gonna make a day 1 judgement call that sheep and UC are chaotic neutral.

Vote: acidphoenix

[nancy]

@sheep, opportunism happens when someone uses something that's going on in the game to their own ends, it's considered a scumtell to an extent because it can be a sign that the person being opportunistic is only interested in manipulating the situation and using the situation as a cover. Like for example if mafia latches onto a mislynch that town is pushing and uses town's push to secure the mislynch. It's a "sit back and wait until opportunity arises" type approach that doesn't really make much sense coming from town since our goal is to be actively solving the game.

Personally think UC is the only one in the game who really fits that profile.

[nancy]

acid got worse with the Velox mini-chainsaw and I don't think me putting Velox to L-1 right now is super helpful. Deadline in 5 days so in ~2 days at the latest we should start being serious about getting a claim from Velox, presuming nothing happens to make us reconsider the lynch, in which case if he hasn't claimed by then I'll move over or give intent for the claim.

[nancy]

Think acid/Velox have roughly equal chance of flipping mafia atm.

[nancy]

If I were choosing to lynch between the two it'd be acid though.

[nancy]

Pls no capitalize my name thx ♥ ♥

[nancy]

He's been prodded and has ~7 hours to post before Micc starts looking for a replacement.

[nancy]

Yeah, I'd say that's a little opportunistic the way you're describing it.

Something you have to be aware of in looking at that kind of situation is that people sometimes talk less about something if other people don't seem in favor of it and more when others do, so it's not too strange to me that town would respond to someone suspecting someone they've been suspecting by engaging a bunch more with that than they had been. Not saying that's what's going on with Brig as I haven't really looked at what you're talking about, but it's something to keep in mind when you're trying to get a read on that sort of behavior.

Distinguishing town feeling encouraged by someone else sharing their concerns from mafia manipulating people can be very difficult and that's a big part of why being transparent in your read progression is often very helpful for other people trying to sort you. Helpful to look at the player's ISO as a whole when you're trying to judge that and see if there are any patterns or signs that point to one over the other.

[nancy]

can someone state the attack on acid

If you mean why is he scum, my own read there is mostly that he's just been very lifeless this game and I haven't seen him doing things that look like he's interested in trying to get a read on anyone. What he has put out has been very ??? in that I haven't really understood how he's reaching his reads or where any of his thoughts are coming from.

Also seems super disconnected, e.g., big mismatch in his stance on me/patrick2 between 379 and 132 which both end up not looking like real thoughts as a result; interacting with Brigadoon as if he knows Brig is town despite him being his strongest scumread; + if you're acid here with your scumreads what they are in 379 I'm not understanding why you're not interested at all in trying to push those reads or why you've not talked about them even a little bit.

641 kind of tipped the scales for me in that it's been the majority of the dayphase by now and you've had a lot of time to do things with your reads and work on them and with what Brian's posted around that time all acid cares to comment on in his naked vote on Velox which is really baffling in a world where acid is town.

[nancy]

Brigadoon who do you think the team is if sheep is town?

acid + Velox?
acid + UC?
acid + Brian Skies?
acid + patrick2?

Because acid + sheep is one of the least likely teams there for me.

[nancy]

Presuming acid is mafia, obviously.

[nancy]

When with patrick2? The shade on Brian wasn't so much a chainsaw (I know I called it a mini-chainsaw) as shading Brian, which in the context that it happened I think makes them less likely to be partners.

Think about how this looks from acid's perspective if he's mafia with Velox; it looks like there's a very high probability that your partner will be lynched and the counterwagon you're pushing doesn't seem viable at all, Brian naked votes them after a sequence that looks very bad for your partner, and your choice of tactic there as mafia is to shade Brian? When Velox flips mafia that's going to look very awful for you.

On the other hand if acidphoenix is mafia and Velox is town, acid knows this is a mislynch and doesn't care that the wagon he's pushing isn't viable, has stated a scumread on Brian, Brian naked votes someone he knows is a townie who is very probably going to be lynched, and acid takes a potshot at this. When Velox flips town you have extra fuel for your scumread on Brian and you can use that to discredit him.

Think the second situation is a little more likely and makes more sense if acid is mafia here so Velox probably not the first choice for me when I'm looking for partners.

For sheep it's the strong townread with no justification, specifically the language in "ok yeah sheep is just town" is something I find much more likely to be said of town than your partner in that way, especially when sheep's posting leading up to that wasn't exceptionally town in any particular way, ends up looking more like an informed correct read than townreading a partner with sheep's response in 381. And from sheep's side you have the early content saying "let's iso acid" accusing UC of pocketing acid, think that's another thing that comes across to me as them being more unaligned than not.

[nancy]

All good!

[nancy]

But yeah once you get a grip on the above think you can probably guess pretty easily who I think is most likely mafia with acid.

[nancy]

PS

what's this supposed to mean

Sorry it's a bad joke making it obvious how old I am, it's me saying "meh I can't decide right now" although I think after rereading I'm feeling a lot less meh about it.

[nancy]

Velox if you're town you need to be doing a lot more than what you are to help us see that. Stating reads on 2-3 players who stand out to you the most in the game could go a long way, shouldn't be too difficult for you at this point to give reads with the amount of content we've had and please forget about whether or not you might be wrong because that's not important. Right now you're not playing mafia regardless of your alignment and that needs to change because you signed up for this game and it's your responsibility to put time and effort into winning here.

[nancy]

@sheep

please run me through your Brigadoon read from the start of the game to present, would like to see how your read has changed over time and what you've read in which ways, as much detail as you're able to manage there would be very helpful. You also need to do more than just skim the thread here, we're near the end of the day, the thread isn't going to read itself. If you're town here I would like to be able to see that much clearer than I'm able to right now but you need to meet me half way and showing all your thoughts on Brig is probably the best way to go about that.

[nancy]

guacamole, please get an avatar? Preferably an edible one.

[nancy]

I think it's a pretty safe bet that velox isn't town.

All-or-nothing is never a safe bet.

[nancy]

lack of effort is not alignment indicative

It actually can very much be alignment indicative, depending on context.

[nancy]

That "actually" was kind of condescending, wasn't it? Sorry.

[nancy]

Most of it's psychological, looking at what people are doing and trying to get into their head and see if what they're doing make sense coming from town (someone who doesn't know anyone else's alignment, is trying to figure the game out, is honest about their thoughts, wants town to win).

Like your number 2 that you've given me here, the reason you've noticed that mafia are nice to you is that mafia need people to like them in order to win and it's often easier to manipulate people by being nice to them. What's going on there is someone being nice to you to manipulate you rather than someone being nice to you because they think you're town and like you and want to work with you. So right there you have something to look for when you're scumhunting: is this person being manipulative? Mafia are very often nasty, as well, and are manipulative that way too.

Some stronger indicators are things like people flipping their reads around or not being able to explain their thoughts coherently. For example, in my other IC game where I was mafia in LyLo I went from townreading someone who I'd been townreading all game to scumreading them because I needed their lynch in order to win. Found all the right reasons to change my mind on the read but there was zero town motivation behind that switch and it was very difficult to understand why I changed my mind when I did if I was town there.

Another example, if you look at acidphoenix in this game, we haven't seen his flip so we don't know if it is coming from mafia but if you look at 132 he's saying he scumreads patrick2 because he doesn't think it's realistic that he townreads that many people. Skip to 379 and you have acidphoenix kind of shading me for finding the reasons he gave there to be good; he's now townreading patrick2 and scumreading me and his stance on one thing (what patrick2 did was scummy) is different at two separate points in the game, so it looks like he's just lying about why he's got the reads that he has.

[nancy]

There's not much more you can do other than talk to people about how they're reading certain things in the ways that they are and trying to figure out from what they've said if they're lying or being manipulative or whether they actually care about hunting scum and honestly believe in the things they're telling you. If you can read along and understand how someone is getting to their reads consistently all throughout their ISO that alone is a pretty decent indicator that they're town, which is why talking about read is so important to do when you're town.

[nancy]

Like /10 how helpful is that? Do you want me to write more? Do you want more specific examples? Something else?

It's something that you're going to get better at with practice so avoiding trying to scumhunt anything at all isn't going to be very helpful for you in that regard. Even if you feel like you've got no idea what you're doing, stumbling around trying to find alignment in things people are posting and sharing those thoughts with other people to get feedback will go a long way to helping you get the hang of it. And if you're not spectating games you should definitely consider doing that, as well reading the wiki, the majority of what I know about mafia is stuff I learned by example.

[nancy]

Yeah, very unfortunate. Think that if you open up Brigadoon's ISO and just focus on the things in there that have stood out to you the most rather than giving thoughts on ~everyone~ that would be the most useful thing for me in getting a read on you; his ISO is very short so it shouldn't take you more than ~5 minutes to do, think that would be the least time intensive way to help me get a better read on you. In the future I'd definitely recommend not signing up for a game when you know you've got something like finals coming up but since we're here if you could just file away ~15 minutes at some point in the next day or two to put out some thoughts on Brigadoon that would be super helpful.

[nancy]

mostly ucvs game is filled with cringeworthy generically wolfy things, and

Patrick seems noobish enough that simultaneously having a bunch of trs already

and one of them being ucv seems weird, especially if he hasn't played with ucv

See the bolded. Looks to be very much part of your read there.

Talking about why I scumread you isn't tunneling and I'm not sure why you'd think that it is.

[nancy]

c. if you're scum be more blatant about it :>

Don't understand how this statement makes sense if you've been thinking for most of the game that there's a good chance I'm mafia.

[nancy]

ye lgi

[nancy]

I don't really find the real-time "stream of consciousness" type interactions to be very helpful, if you want to interact in the thread over the period of an hour so that's much more useful to me as we both have time to order our thoughts and talk to each other in a way that's more than scattershot.

My issue isn't that you stopped thinking that what he did was scummy, it's that you've moved from holding one stance to holding another with no in-between process. In 379 it looks like you've just changed your opinion on whether or not what patrick2 did was deserving of that read in order to facilitate your scumread on me and townread on him. If it was a real thought that too many townreads is a legitimate reason to think someone is scummy at that point in the game, I don't understand how it's then also a real thought that it's not a legitimate reason later on; regardless of whether you decided you no longer agreed with that line of reasoning, me agreeing with that thought when it happened doesn't make sense as a reason to find me scummy. You might as well call yourself scummy. Does that make sense?

What do you mean by "but confbiased there anyway"? If I'm mafia it's impossible for me to have confirmation bias.

If you're town here then there are a bunch of ways to help me see that and putting a little effort into putting your thoughts on the game into the thread and responding to the other concerns I've raised about you would be a very good place to start.

[nancy]

Hearing back from you after you've slept is fine; telling me I'm wrong doesn't do anything for me, if I am wrong on that point specifically then as always the way to show me that would be to walk me through how it made sense to you and what your thoughts were around that. So far you've put out very little in the way of thoughts and there's next to nothing to work with so pretty much anything would be an improvement over what's there right now. If you don't actually remember and can't respond then it's going to have to be by addressing the other things.

[nancy]

Thanks sheep, I appreciate it.

[nancy]

nancy, what's your advice on when we should lynch in terms of deadline?

3-ish days before deadline.

[nancy]

brian - how are you making less effort in this game than i am that's legit impressive

I realize you're being ironic but it's pretty terrible honestly. Both SEs this game have done next to nothing and sadly I can't say that's an unfair representation of site culture which is what SEs are supposed to exemplify.

PS if that makes sense... do something with it? Put out reads. I'm not going to try to stop your lynch if you don't.

[nancy]

Right now I think I can find good reasons for guacamole and sheepsaysmeep to be town and pretty much no one else. That's pretty saddening and this game as a whole has been pretty saddening.

[nancy]

nancy, what's your advice on when we should lynch in terms of deadline?

3-ish days before deadline.

...which is where we're at now.

But I'm very tired and don't feel like doing what this town needs me to do so a simple question instead, what would your lynch order be here right now?

For me probably something like garaputo->acidphoenix->Brigadoon->UC Voyager->Velox->Brian Skies->guacamole->sheepsaysmeep, though that might change when acidphoenix comes back and talks.

[nancy]

I can help - you don't need to worry about me being scum.

Oh okay good to know I believe you 100% thanks for letting me know, that's a real burden off my shoulders.

[nancy]

You did a bunch of complaining that you couldn't do anything because I was scumreading you, so I townread you for a little to see if your behavior would change.

[nancy]

Yes I'm a very bad example.

[nancy]

[nancy]

So why should I be townreading you?

[nancy]

Because telling someone they're full of bullshit and awful for trying to scumhunt you isn't town behavior.

pedit what have you done that shows that you care?

[nancy]

So you're town because you care (which isn't town behavior, mafia also care), and the reason you care is "your ISO".

This is meant to convince me how?

[nancy]

Like, once again I give you a very simple question, can you give me a reason why you are town here, what have you done that's town, and this is the kind of backwards response you give me.

I think you really need to reconsider how you play mafia because trying to break people down and make them feel like shit is a really gross way to play, if I'm being very frank with you.

[nancy]

Vote: garaputo

I'm 95% sure you are mafia.

[nancy]

You're not worth my time, sorry.

[nancy]

I'm really sorry to everyone for garaputo's behavior; I wish I could say this isn't something you're going to have to deal with in the majority of games on mafiascum but I think I'd be lying if I did.

@guacamole I sort of agree with you? He's kind of a slot that I've been swinging back and forth on for a while and I feel like each time I swing he ends up feeling a little more like mafia; he's also someone I don't entirely know what to do with because he seems so scatterbrained and incomprehensible and somehow callous that I struggle to really bank on a lot of the scummy things he's done this game as coming from mafia, even though maybe I shouldn't? Idk. Where are you at with reads overall right now and was there a reason you didn't move your vote after you replaced in?

[nancy]

Brian Skies started off looking good but faded pretty badly.

I think you can probably mostly clear him just from how he handled the request for help from me; don't think he goes into the kind of detail that he does there if he is mafia and the way that he broke off with no real end-point then followed up felt very pure; think unless he's mafia with garaputo the only real mafia motivation there is "I'm going to put all this effort into something very meaningless in order to hopefully towntell from it" that just really doesn't add when you consider how much of a stretch that is + he doesn't seem concerned with looking town here at all otherwise and I don't think he ever manages to fake that kind of analysis when he's mafia with garaputo so I don't think there's a world there either. Really just don't see him being mafia after that and I doubt I'd reconsider until LyLo.

[nancy]

Scum seem to be somewhere in UCV, Velox, Brigadoon, garaputo. This is too many and I'm not sure how to narrow it down.

Do you have any aligned / unaligned reads in there? Because that's a very good way to start narrowing a PoE and especially helpful when you feel like you could shoot any one of them and have a pretty good chance of hitting scum.

[nancy]

Ftr guacamole if there are confirmed 2 mafia in those 4, you can chain lynch them and win the game because even if you lynch both town first you're going to hit both mafia in LyLo. Which would obviously be a terrible way to go about resolving the PoE, but in the sense of it being "too many", it's more scumreads than you want yes but if you're correct on the team being in there you've won. Food for thought!

[nancy]

Oh, snap.

[nancy]

So like, that's a pretty classic scumtell but I don't know if I want to latch onto it here.

/me thinks

[nancy]

It's independent of my read on garaputo, was that not clear? Unless you're a lot better at mafia than I give you credit for I don't think my reasoning is bad with the other slots that are in this game.

Why would you want me to sell you on the garaputo wagon and why is that all you have to comment on that's happened?

Did you spot the scumtell?

[nancy]

Do you have scumgames I can look at besides Civilization?

[nancy]

Ftr guacamole if there are confirmed 2 mafia in those 4, you can chain lynch them and win the game because even if you lynch both town first you're going to hit both mafia in LyLo. Which would obviously be a terrible way to go about resolving the PoE, but in the sense of it being "too many", it's more scumreads than you want yes but if you're correct on the team being in there you've won. Food for thought!

that would be nice but there are still 5 other players several of whom I can't clear from suspicion

It happens when mafia forget that they're meant to know that they're town in situations like these. You can't have a read on yourself.

[nancy]

You mafia Brian?

[nancy]

Thanks.

[nancy]

You mafia Brian?

I'm not even gonna humor this with a response.

But you were just arguing for how little sense it made to townread you?

[nancy]

I probably expressed it poorly if that's how it sounded to you. It was a "town enough to not lynch before LyLo given I have others I want to lynch more" read although I feel like you kind of ruined that by asking me to sell you on the garaputo wagon the way you did.

You look like you have a pretty good scumgame btw!

Where are your reads at? I don't remember you having any D:

[nancy]

Battlestar Galactica - I don't really count this one since I helped the town decimate my scumteam before my alignment changed. Probably closer to an SK game (without the fun SK stuff).

Jesus that's a brutal ending. This is why alignment changes are a bad thing.

[nancy]

If you're townreading garaputo why are you also considering voting him???

How am I "less town" here unless I have an amazing scumgame and if I do then the reasons you're suspicious of me like weak buddying wouldn't apply?

[nancy]

although I feel like you kind of ruined that by asking me to sell you on the garaputo wagon the way you did.

I mean, I really don't care about that. What I really care about is your reasoning for the Gara wagon and if you seriously think it will land on scum.

I've talked more than enough about that. We've talked about it. I really struggle to believe you're not wise on this.

pedit okay so then why is he not less town for instance?

[nancy]

it was less about reasoning and more

i remembered that you had just voted velox (chronologically), saw an early townread on him, opened your iso and ctrl+f'd velox and got nothing

/me runs away before more is expected (because i'm dealing with things i've stalled more in then going to bed; sorry for not doing anything today but :/)

if i get done with other things quickly i'll try to give a few minutes to this

/me expects MOAR