Newbie 1915: Africa [Game Over!]

[MaryJoLisa]

Thanks for stepping in, urap. Your comments solidified a lot of my reasoning and brought clarity where I wasn't able to see properly.

[u r a person 2]

that's why it's a team game ;P I hope you stick around, sincerely.

[skitter30]

thanks nsg!
i, uh, did not do a very good job at using the ic pt, so i guess if anyone wants me to give feedback or whatever lmk

@maryjo sorry for getting tunneled, i was lowkey aware that that was a thing i might be doing but i kinda ignored it until like today irl when the new day started, so sorry about that

i guess i do still want to know if you think i was purposefully misleading you because i was not, i answered the l-1/intent/claim/hammer thing as truthfully and as accurately as i know how to; i very very very strongly believe that lolhammering is not a good idea and would have pushed for your lynch tomorrow if spam had flipped town; i belive it's very important to get a claim whenever possible, and that this should be waived only in the event that deadline is like imminently approaching (ie like within hours or mintues)

i guess if you're still confused about this lmk so we can talk about it mroe

[northsidegal]

i do feel that i should say something regarding the fake hammer reaction testing.

i'm not entirely sure if i believe it was a

wrong

thing to do, per se. it's certainly something that happens in regular games, so in that sense it is simply an introduction to a tactic used elsewhere. on the other hand, however, i can definitely see how it might leave someone feeling tricked or lied to by people they're meant to be able to trust, even if for their own benefit (in terms of getting townread).

townslips

are

the most common in newbie games for a reason, as it's very easy for someone to not know something like that the scumteam has daytalk and thus get townread off of it. i'm not sure this is necessarily a bad thing, but i also don't think it's something that should be taken advantage of.

i guess my conclusion here is "if something like this happens naturally then it's fine but as a principle i think it's probably bad to take advantage of a newbie's lack of knowledge in a way that may leave them feeling cheated or betrayed". in this case i think it was less so a lack of knowledge and more a simple reaction test, but it definitely is something i think people should keep in mind.

(i know i didn't really take much of a strong position here but i don't really have that strong of a position)

[u r a person 2]

I hadn't considered that. Something to ponder, for sure.

[u r a person 2]

Skitter, I saw that you /in'd for nsg's mini theme and I am stoked to see you there! You seem like good people

[skitter30]

also reading the mod pt:

i apologize if i did anything that you made you feel cheated or tricked. i did my best to convey what i undertand to be site meta wrt l1-intent-claim-hammer. people don't always listen to that but i did my best to explain what the regular site meta is.

if you feel like i mislead you or took advantage of your being a newer player please let me know so we can talk about it, because that was not my intent in any way.

[skitter30]

Skitter, I saw that you /in'd for nsg's mini theme and I am stoked to see you there! You seem like good people

tyty

i greatly enjoyed playing with you too, and was super impressed by your townplay!

i might have to /out due to irl stuff but i hope i can play

[MaryJoLisa]

thanks nsg!
i, uh, did not do a very good job at using the ic pt, so i guess if anyone wants me to give feedback or whatever lmk

@maryjo sorry for getting tunneled, i was lowkey aware that that was a thing i might be doing but i kinda ignored it until like today irl when the new day started, so sorry about that

i guess i do still want to know if you think i was purposefully misleading you because i was not, i answered the l-1/intent/claim/hammer thing as truthfully and as accurately as i know how to; i very very very strongly believe that lolhammering is not a good idea and would have pushed for your lynch tomorrow if spam had flipped town;

You answered the question, but then the actions that followed (in general) didn't match the policy that you stated. I decided that I would interpret what I saw, not what you said (none of this "do as I say, not as I do"), and I was prepared to burn the bridge if I messed up.

i belive it's very important to get a claim whenever possible, and that this should be waived only in the event that deadline is like imminently approaching (ie like within hours or mintues)

i guess if you're still confused about this lmk so we can talk about it mroe

You had already tunneled me and there was no shaking you. I deemed that the potential benefits outweighed the risks and I applied the hammer policy that I understood through having watched leadership by example (by experienced players).

Overall, you did a good job, Skitter, and I appreciate your time. I think the lines got blurred there and it was confusing for me, but you were helpful and friendly and explained some terms and stuff that my head was swimming in.

[u r a person 2]

Oh hmmmm
I just read the mod thread.

my thoughts: The only people in any game that have any obligation to tell the truth to anybody about anything are the mod and the ic

and even then the ic is only obligated to tell the truth about things like setup, strategy, etc.

Skitter absolutely gave you the forum consensus on quick hammers. The community, in my experience is not good at following this consensus, but she was absolutely truthful in giving the accepted consensus about quick hammering. I also believe that skitter truly believes that consensus to represent correct play. Even people that quick hammer think quick hammering is against the community consensus, I believe.

Further, I don't actually believe anyone was trying to trick you into hammering. I told you that you shouldn't be hasty, and I meant it for all of the reasons skitter said.

And when TTTT fake hammered, that wasn't to trick you into hammering - Why would you vote at all? If you were tricked, we were in twilight. As you pointed out, there is an expectation that the kid gloves will not be on in newbie games. Personally, I think it would be a disservice NOT to play to win, and TTTT's fake hammer was definitely playing to win.

Afterwards, TTTT and I both told you that we thought a hammer was appropriate, and by that time, we both did think a hammer was appropriate.

I'm sorry that you felt betrayed, and maybe we need to do a better job of explaining this somewhere, but I think everyone acted appropriately.

[skitter30]

i guess the general policy is: l-1, intent, claim, hammer

there are nuances and occasions where getting a claim might be skipped (imminent deadline approaching and a lynch needs to happen). and i guess when the four consensus townreads are already on a wagon and just want the day to end already and are fine with a hammer happening. in that scenario, if someone just hammers they'd get less flak than randomly lolhammering before people were ready for the day to end. that's why people didn't complain too much at the start of day two, but were pretty upset with how day2 ended - people were kinda expecting day1 to end soonish so the hammer without a claim, while not great, was not the worst thing you could have done, while day2 was still in its very early stages and nobody was really expecting the day to end at that point, which is why i was annoyed.

and i guess these are all nuances that you pick up after playign a bunch of games; the general rule of thumb is: l-1, intent, claim, hammer. i would not have hammered salami there without getting a claim since we definitely had time to get one barring him just dissappearing (in which case he prob woudl have gotten hammered without a claim). it ended up working out but i don't think that's ideal play

idk i hope that kinda made sense

(i don't really count tttt's fake-hammer as being a hammer/intent for the purpose of this discussion because he was already on the wagon and his vote didn't do actually do anything)

and yeah, sorry for the tunneling, i do that sometimes :/
and i do apologize if you feel like i tricked you, i def did not do that on purpose and did not mean to make you feel that way :/
but i'm glad that i was able to help tho

p-edit i didn't read urap's post

[u r a person 2]

ic intro, adapted from lots of others!

\

And here are some helpful tips:

--->

Give "intent to hammer"

when you want to place the final vote on a player. This gives time for that player to give a final plea and to claim their power role, if they have one (or if they are lying scum). If, after that player has posted, you are still sure you want to hammer them, go ahead and place the final vote. It is also common courtesy to declare "L-1" ("1 Vote away from lynch") when you place the penultimate vote on a player.

also, what she told you was fully consistent with the "helpful tips" section of her IC post, clearly delineating this advice from the game rules posted by the mod. This is a pretty standard IC post, and I *think* the ic posts even have to be approved? maybe that's not true

[MaryJoLisa]

Oh hmmmm
I just read the mod thread.

my thoughts: The only people in any game that have any obligation to tell the truth to anybody about anything are the mod and the ic

I am not about to pick apart the exchange. It can be difficult to dismiss what you already know and view information from a uninformed perspective. You don't really know what you don't know until you finally know it.

Had it been a different player on the block, I might not have pulled the trigger. But it was Spam, and Spam had rolled scum this game and since it became clear to me (from my perspective and with my knowledge base) that we were taking off the gloves, I followed suit.

[skitter30]

no they don't, that one happens to be a bit of a common one that i want to say a player named irrelephant put together that i stole and tweaked a bit

[skitter30]

(at least, i stole it from irrrelephant, i don't know if he originally put it together)

[u r a person 2]

no they don't, that one happens to be a bit of a common one that i want to say a player named irrelephant put together that i stole and tweaked a bit

either way, I stand by my belief that skitter's play was fully appropriate, and tbh, I don't know that I would have changed a word of her explanations regarding this topic

[RadiantCowbells]

very well played town

[MaryJoLisa]

If there are nuances to this policy that are not documented, then they're meant to be learned through trial and error. This is a newbie game. This is literally the place for me to learn these mistakes so I can get a feel for the culture, rules and policies.

[MaryJoLisa]

very well played town

You must not have read through the thread, then.

Thank you just the same.

[u r a person 2]

There are no nuances to policies. There are rules, listed at the start of each game. Those are hard rules. There is advice, which is good advice, listed in the IC post and labeled as such, and given by the IC when asked for - as was done this game. And then there is the way people play, which is entirely up to each individual player.

[MaryJoLisa]

We simply don't share each other's perspective. That's okay. I still think you're a fine player and your pocket was rather nice while it lasted.

[cbynumber]

Big thanks to northsidegal for the top-notch modding throughout the game.

Major props to urap2 for replacing in and breathing life back into the game which steered us towards a town victory.

I had a lot of fun and learnt a lot as I played. (If anyone has feedback for me and the way I played I'd greatly appreciate it <3)

Well played to everyone! Hope to see you all in future games <3

[Elements]

GG everyone!
@urap@TTTT idk about you but I enjoyed this game more than the other one's i've played with you

@nmsa good job playing the as the scum team pretty much on you own. Especially for your first game. I don't think there were many things you could've done better (except your first post). you were very unlucky with salami, if he'd been active things might have been different. I'll definitly steal some of your ideas when i eventually roll scum

That was my third newbie game, so ill hopefully see you all in the world of experience!

also great job mod. the dedication to page top vote counts was much appreciated

[BBmolla]

Subject: Newbie 1915: Mafia Hideout

be careful of BBmolla

he is a good player

and looking to bait you

apparently not

at least I have meta proof now that I'm awful at this game

[TTTT]

@MaryJo
I'm not sure I'm understanding what your concerns are at this stage.
is it being tricked by the fake-hammer?
or feeling like you were given wrong advice on hammering?
I enjoyed playing with you and hope you'll stick around
so I'd like to clear up any lingering bad vibes you might have.