Blitz 14: Murder on Madness Mountain GAME OVER!
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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In post 71, Soren wrote:
>Says to see how you would reactIn post 66, Firebringer wrote:In post 63, Rob14 wrote:Fire, explain to me then why you're voting Soren. I'm open to a conversation, but on its face, your vote looks very bad.
Just to see how you would react.
No but honestly I do agree with what you said earlier, his pressuring to get me lynched is pretty scummy man.
>Makes no comment about your reaction
That read as an obvious joke to me? He followed it up by "No, but honestly....", which generally indicates a joke.-
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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In post 81, Ranger wrote:
It means exactly that: given your posting so far, I want you to be town. You're posting in a very logical way and appear to be giving off more thoughts than any other player. But while that's good posting, nothing you've done has been undeniablyRob13 wrote:That statement strikes me as odd; care to explain?townposting, if your scumgame is at all reasonably skilled. Make sense?
Yeah. To clarify my question, I was trying to get at whether this was game-related or the fact that you've been in some of the games I modded and don't want to go against me or something.-
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In post 92, Ranger wrote:Because I'm not convinced you're town, particularly if Firebringer were to flip town.
This sounds like lining up lynches, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth regarding this wagon. At the very least, I'm not ready for this day to end.
UNVOTE:-
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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Fire seems conventionally scum, but I'm leaving the option open that Fire is just a VI. I'm not 100% sure if scum or VI at the moment. Ranger saying if Fire is town, then X is town leaves a bad taste because it seems like he's planting the seeds to jump from townie to townie as scum. If Ranger is scum, then we know Fire and Ricastle are town.
If we're going the way of an information lynch, Ranger is better than Fire. Fire gives next to no information.-
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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In post 101, Firebringer wrote:In post 100, Rob14 wrote:Fire is just a VI.
I like being called scum more than VI.
Thank you very much.
From what I've seen in other games, you do play town oddly. A spade is a spade.-
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VOTE: Ranger
I've re-read a bit, and that lining up lynches thing really strikes me as unlikely to come from town. This lynch gives us a lot of information if Ranger flips scum, with both Fire and Ricastle becoming almost conf-town.
Re-reading Fire brings me closer to believing he's playing to his derpy meta than actually scum, although what scum!Fire would look like is something I don't really have an answer to. Does anyone have more complete meta info on Fire?-
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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Someone flipping town never gives much information because town doesn't know anything other townies don't know already (other than their own role I suppose). I don't see much of an alternative. If I'm reading Fires meta correctly, that's not a good lynch. You're the only other person who's done something scummy imo. Maybe there would be better lynch possibilities if we had better participation, but this is the best I've got right now. My request for more activity has gone unheeded.-
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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Re: Ricastle. I reply to things concerning me when a question is asked or someone ascribes a motive to my actions that is not correct. In those cases, I set the record straight. I do this routinely in all my games. You've not said anything about your vote on me, so I have nothing to correct. Everyone is entitled to their reads. If you care to explain yours on me, I'd be happy to respond, but that is not and will never be a priority of mine.
Re: Ranger. That's a fair point. What is the alternative you propose? Lynch blindly in the lurkers? Unfortunately, lynching someone who is actively evem somewhat scummy yields more information than lynching a lurker. It's not fair, and it's one of the weaknesses of the forum version of Mafia imo, but it is what it is. If you have a better solution, I'm all ears.-
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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In post 121, Ricastle wrote:Fair. I think really that everyone should have their metaphorical vote on you simply because you act not in a way that seems natural, but a way that is likeable and agreeable, yet is also at the same level of play which can be well faked. Resultantly I do not feel safe putting you above null at best.
I think Jackal warrants looking at beyond lurking because he's been pushing the Fire wagon without ever being on it. CN has also only disappeared since he got called out last page.
Since you seem to be expecting a response, I'll oblige, but I don't have much to say. You make a fair point. I wish I could be doing more, but with half the player list actively lurking, There's not much to go on. It's quite possible, as you said, that we've not caught any scum and they're hiding in the lurkers.
Starting to question whether I should pick a lurker to lynch via coin flip.-
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Fire needs a prod (as does our mod, who's over the limit on times between VCs).
I don't believe I can do justice to analyzing Jackal before I go to bed in around 10 minutes, so my vote is where it is for the moment. I'd much rather we lynch you, frankly, but I don't believe a vote there is productive for the same reason a vote on Jackal wouldn't be. There's no existing support there and we have no time. We've managed 6 pages in >3.5 days. What makes you think people are going to pop out of the woodwork after 10PM EST to complete a quicklynch? I have no trust in that, and Jackal's null for me right now anyway.
Ricastle deserves serious scum points in Day 2 for swapping off a wagon that's near lynch slightly before deadline and going to sleep immediately. Serious attempt to derail.-
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I refuse to go with CN. I think scum's on that wagon. It popped up incredibly quickly and close to deadline, and there's no clear reason why. Especially Jackal's vote was not good, but I need more time to examine the wagon.
We should be lynching in {Ranger, Fire, myself}. I heavily encourage everyone to swap votes onto one of those prior to deadline, or we're getting a no lynch.-
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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1) He's at L-2.
2) He's probably town.
To be honest, I'll lynch there if I'm forced to, but I don't want to. It's a horrible lynch.
@Fire: I'm at the same number of votes as the others I listed; it'd be hypocritical not to list myself. Obviously I won't vote myself and don't encourage others to, but anything for a lynch, I suppose.-
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In post 152, Ranger wrote:
Experience.Rob13 wrote:What makes you think people are going to pop out of the woodwork after 10PM EST to complete a quicklynch?
It's now midnight with 4 hours left. Not many people are likely to show up, and definitely not four people to lynch Jackal. What now?-
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We have two hours. If you'll be around at 3:30am EST, I'd recommend putting your vote on Ranger now if you prefer him and we can change later if needed. I'm going to be up until deadline most likely to make sure we don't no lynch. I'dreallyprefer Ranger over CN, though. CN's wagon strikes me as awful.
Who do you actually prefer - Ranger or CN?-
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I honestly have no idea how scum will shoot because no-one seems to have any handle on this game so far, so I'll just say, in case I die for my activity alone: Town, please step it up. This is blitz. I see most blitz games with 20ish pages at the end of Day 1, and certainly more than three a full 2 days in. There's just no hope if activity doesn't start up.-
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In post 195, davesaz wrote:Fire, Rob: why Ranger over Soren?
Ranger was lining up lynches on two players, one of which we now know is town (CN), and the other of which I think is town (Fire). This is inherently scummy.
Soren is tunneling and a bit of a derp. This is not scummy. If Soren continues to not work on reads of other players, I might be willing to consider their behavior scummy on a future day, but right now this is the low-effort wagon that I think scum wants us on.-
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In post 187, Firebringer wrote:In post 184, Rob14 wrote:I think I know what the setup is because I ran it once before as a closed bastard game.
But a massclaim is a terrible idea. Knowledge of the setup (if it is what I think it is) would not help us any.
So you know what the setup likely is but are witholding that info because it is hurtful.
Like if you are town you are asking to get night killed.
Have you never heard of "He knows too much!"
I mean, you are basically embodying that.
My information doesn't benefit the town at all if I'm right. It potentially hurts the town if I'm wrong, which is why massclaim is a bad idea.
I would not provide my information at any point in the game, because it would never be beneficial to town to know the setup.-
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
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After I called you on lining up lynches. That hardly gets you town points.
My bastard was not bastard either. That was the point - I lied about it being bastard. I'm almost positive we're thinking the same thing.
If we're wrong, PRs die.
If we're right, the setup could be designed in a way that it's impossible to tell who's scum even if all roles are claimed. There is no benefit.-
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In post 205, Ranger wrote:
Hardly gets me town points, sure, but invalidates your point. I never pushed CN, I backed off of Firebringer, that was based off of me reconsidering my reads, and I showed why. Calling me out on lining up mislynches does nothing.Rob13 wrote:After I called you on lining up lynches. That hardly gets you town points.
No, it really doesn't invalidate my point.
My mistake, it was Ricastle you lined up, not CN. My apologies.
In post 92, Ranger wrote:
Because I'm not convinced you're town, particularly if Firebringer were to flip town. If Firebringer flips scum, then I'd look to see if I thought your interactions were that of scumbuddies, but until then, you're not sending strong signals which say town.Ricastle wrote:Ranger, how come I'm so low on your list?
That post directly says "If X is town, Y is scum". That's textbook lining up lynches on town, and further, I think you killed Ricastle at night to try to dodge the argument about lining up lynches. You didn't want to have to push him or move off of him awkwardly because I had called attention to how scummy all that looked.
Moving off Fire after I noted that you were lining up lynches doesn't invalidate my point. It's you doing damage control. You can't do something AFTER I note a tell and then say "Oh, that means I never did the tell!" There's no takebacksies here. You can't just withdraw your read and walk away.-
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No, we don't know everyone's a PR. In fact, so far, no-one's been an actual PR. And you very well know that because you've been indicating that.
At this point, I think it's important to just say what I believe about the setup so people can understand the interaction between Ranger and myself. Before I say this, if you have info that contradicts it, DO NOT OUT YOURSELF. I'll explain why at the end of the post.
So far, we know that we have a miller, ascetic, and deputy. Those are all roles that, in the absence ofothertypes of roles like cop, doc, etc., do nothing. My theory is that this setup has 7 vts and 2 goons functionally. None of the roles actually interact. I ran that as a "bastard" game once before, where I advertised the game heavily as bastard, but the only bastard thing about it was that it wasn't really bastard.
DO NOT OUT IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE A ROLE THAT COULD INTERACT. Keep in mind that scum could have modifiers (such as Ninja) that prevent your role from interacting with anything in a functional sense. Do not out if you're a PR.
This is why I think it's plausible for Ranger to kill a Deputy. It could very well be that there's no cop in the setup, and killing a deputy is as good as killing anyone else. Ranger was the first to bring up this theory through her call to massclaim. I assume that's what she meant.-
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If scum didn't pick up that Ricastle was a deputy by his crumbs, they sure had an opportunity to when Ranger quoted the crumbs and said something to the effect of "I get it now. You're town."
Now that I'm looking at it, that's a much more plausible reason for the kill than Ranger being worried about my case.-
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Because keeping him alive and perpetuating the lining up lynches narrative was dangerous to your continued existence. A scum will always kill someone town-reading them if leaving that person alive risks a scum lynch. You're deliberately ignoring my entire explanation of why you would have motivation as scum to kill Ricastle in favor of attacking ... what, exactly? You're not addressing any argument. You're just saying "He was town-reading me, so I wouldn't kill him." That's WIFOM bullshit and you know it. You've never addressed my specific rationale why you would kill Ricastle except to say you weren't lining up lynches, even though it's clear that you were.
VOTE: Ranger
Not letting this scum get away. Both Jackal and Soren get the rope next for being absolutely useless, if not outright scummy.-
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There's a difference between having multiple scumreads and lining up lynches.
Having multiple scumreads and wanting to lynch them is not lining up lynches.
Lining up lynches is when you use bullshit relations back-to-back to jump from town to town fluidly. It's when you say "If X is town, then Y is scum" while voting X. This is extremely scummy because you're voting a player while positing who you should lynch next once the player you're voting flips town. If you're town hunting scum, then you would think the player you're voting and trying to lynch is scum. You wouldn't be focusing on your next lynch conditional on X being TOWN. If you're scum, you know X will flip town, and you need to start laying foundation for your next lynch.
Again, simply having multiple scumreads is not scummy, and of course my reads would adjust to new information.
Your 241 gives your supposed rationale for suspecting Ricastle, but doesn't explain why you were considering him scummy conditional on Fire being town (which is what defines lining up lynches!) or why you even had the thought process of "If Fire is town ..." in the first place. Your 222 merely restates your post. Your exact words were:
In post 92, Ranger wrote:
Because I'm not convinced you're town, particularly if Firebringer were to flip town.Ricastle wrote:Ranger, how come I'm so low on your list?
At the same time, you'revoting for Fire, but considering that he's likely town in your read for Ricastle. Like ... what? It doesn't make any sense from a town mindset.
I'm hardly ignoring Jackal. He's my vote in the next day unless something radically changes, but I feel like if I don't persuade town to vote you now, the people scum-reading you will mysteriously die and the wagon will never be a thing. If you're getting lynched, today is the day to do it. I'm happy to draw attention to myself in doing so, which I'm well-aware that I'm doing, because it forces people to look at my case. I do not feel anyone has done this so far. I don't believe a single person other than you and I has commented on my case re: your lining up lynches.-
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Your later town-read on Ricastle isnotat all related to my lining up lynches tell on you. I'm not sure if you're conflating the two to attack a strawman or just misunderstanding what I mean when I say lining up lynches, but you're bringing up your later town-read on Ricastle, NOT me.
You just said you thought he was scum YOURSELF in #249! You said scum but weakening. So which is it? Was he a weak scum read or a null read? If you're going to throw shit at the fan and hope it sticks, you might want to try to at least be consistent in explaining your rationales.
The "If" isn't the way a townie thinks. That's what you're either not getting or trying to make go away. You don't come out of the gate thinking you're wrong. Every townie realizes they could be wrong, which is why I avoid relational tells altogether, but I have never ever seen a townie post about relational tells that assume they're wrong. Ever. I've seen scum do it routinely as an attempt to move fluidly from town to town without looking like their "new" reads don't have a foundation in their posting during previous days.
Ranger, the fact that you're bringing up the townread thing makes it immediately invalid. You know that. I know that. Everyone else knows that. Why are you persisting with it? I've explained a clear rationale for you to kill Ricastle. I was pushing you based on your read of him. Scum!You didn't want to be examined closely, so you removed the reason for the push in hopes that I'd move onto something else. Killing me would have been substantially more risky because it could be more directly tied to you. If you are scum, killing Ricastle is the optimal move. Like ... are you claiming that you don't realize scum analyzes how kills could come back to haunt them when they make them? If so, maybe you should be the one going back to the newbie queue.
Trying to push CN's lynch on me when you fucking peaced out of the thread with no time left and your vote uselessly on Jackal (at L-4) is rich. It's really fucking rich. It was a deadline lynch. It was that or a no lynch after you refused to place a vote that actually mattered for anything. I even called you out on that at the time, and you promised that people would mysteriously appear before going to take a nap or some shit. GUESS WHAT. THEY DIDN'T. I had CN as a town read, which I made very clear as deadline approached, but the whole playerlist decided to vote useless wagons and leave nothing but a shitty option. That's not on me. If anything, it's on you for your Jackal vote at deadline.
I never voted Ricastle. I never scumread him. I did want to push him in Day 2 for making a useless vote, just like you, and I stand by that.
And you haven't flipped. You'll flip scum though. There's no way your rationale here is legit. If it is, you honestlyshouldgo back to the newbie queue.-
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Your entire 255 is complete WIFOM. What did I expect, though?
My reads on Jackal and you are entirely independent. I noted the possible bussing because it was obviously going to be the next question ("BUT HOW COULD THEY BE PARTNERS WHEN JACKAL VOTED RANGER THEN IMMEDIATELY UNVOTED? WHO WOULD DO SUCH A THING?!?!?" ~ idiot townies everywhere). It is not part of my read and never has been.
There were good reasons for your wagon near deadline. That's a clear difference.
Why do I give a shit if you hated the CN wagon? The point is, you were willing to no lynch. You voted Jackal where no-one else was voting then literally logged off with hours to go. And you have the fucking audacity to blame the mislynch onme?
I'm done engaging with you. I'm happy to answer any questions from other players, but my case is clear. Your defense literally doesn't make sense. It's barely coherent, and it's attacking arguments that aren't even there. You keep bringing in random other actions you've done and saying that my argument doesn't prove those actions were scummy. We're either having two totally different conversations, or you're just throwing everything you've ever done out there in an attempt to confuse my case.
My case is simple. In #92, you laid the foundation for a jump onto Ricastle if Fire was town. You were currently voting Fire. If you were town, you would not think that way; you would not have begun examining relational tells that assume you're incorrect. Especially not on page 4. On the other hand, scum!Ranger would know Fire is town and be looking for the next lynch. This post reveals a strong scum motivation and no town motivation, ergo scum.
Do not let all the other bullshit Ranger is throwing out there confuse my case. It's simple. I reduced it to one paragraph to make it extra simple.
P-edit: And there you go again, confusing things. "If statements" are not scummy. The particular way you used one in #92 is. You're attempting to say I'm attacking you for an "if statement" alone and then attack that argument. That is simply not the argument I'm making, and it's not even a reasonable reading of what I've posted. It's a blatant strawman.-
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In the face of pressure? Yeah, you would change the read! Literally the progression of events is this:
1) You line up lynches.
2) I call you on lining up lynches.
3) You swap your read.
4) You say that's proof you never lined up lynches.
That's not how it works! You can't just go back on what you did earlier and then say it never happened because you reneged. As I said earlier, no takebacksies.
In #19, Ricastle was your scummiest read (although you say it's still not strong scum). In #85, you have him only one tier above Fire, fifth in a set of six tiers. You talk about having him in a specific order of lynches in #81. How is that not a scum read? Or bordering on another example of lining up lynches, for that matter (not quite there, imo)?
No-lynching is horrible on Day 1. It gives no information. It prevents us from developing further reads. I'd rather self-vote and lynch myself than no-lynch on Day 1, because people can analyze my wagon to determine where to go on Day 2.
I literally noted 143 in my last post, where I said I did want to push him for a useless vote, just like I wanted to push you for a useless vote. That's not a scumread. It was anti-town behavior, though, and I noted it. Since you're indulging in this WIFOM game, maybe I should as well: Why would I note Ricastle as a developing scum read if I planned to kill him off that night? Feel free to either drop your WIFOM bullshit or acknowledge that I'm now super townie because of that line of thinking. You should do the former, because WIFOM is bad.
I'm not voting you for having a useless vote. That's not my case. If you want to read my case, refer to the bold in the last post I made. Another example of trying to throw all your other actions on the table and tell me all about how they aren't explicitly scummy.THAT'S NOT MY CASE.I'm feeling the need to have a macro ready for that sentence for the rest of this game.
P-edit: You're saying town players shouldn't be transparent like that? I was simply noting that I had considered the bussing element when placing the reads, mostly because I try to avoid relational bullshit pre-flips. When there's a choice between explaining myself and not or elaborating on my reasoning and not, I always go with more explaining/elaborating. It's good for the game and for the ability of others to read me.
No-lynching is not preferable to mislynching in Day 1. You're wrong.
I'm entirely done responding to you, though. I'm not going to convince you to self-vote, so it's a pointless exercise. Feel free to keep building strawmen and yammering on about things I haven't even said. I trust that others will see through that if you continue.-
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Rob14 Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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- Joined: October 5, 2012