[CHALLENGE] September Challenge

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
callforjudgement
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:30 pm

For last month's challenge, see the August Challenge thread.

We've had a lot of rules to encourage complexity and weird ways to think about Mafia in the past challenges. This month's challenge takes things in the opposite direction, though: how simple can a setup be whilst still being playable?

September ChallengeCreate a new open or semi-open setup. (A semi-open setup is a random choice between a fixed number of open setups, with the players not knowing which was chosen.)

Requirements:
  • The setup (or each subsetup individually in the case of a semi-open) must meet the Normal Game guidelines. This means Normal roles and Normal mechanics only.
  • At least 7 and at most 13 players. (As the game is also Normal, this means it's Town vs. Mafia or Town vs. Werewolves, no third parties.)
Must have:
  • The possibility of daytalk for the anti-town faction (either as part of the game rules or via an Encryptor).
  • At least as many Vanilla Townies as non-vanilla players. (In a semi-open, each subsetup must individually comply with this restriction.)
Must not have:
  • Roles which have a choice of which personal night action to use (e.g. Town Jack of All Trades and Town Cop Doctor are disallowed), or that can use multiple personal actions on the same night (e.g. Town Combined Doctor Roleblocker is disallowed).
  • Modifiers applied to non-vanilla roles (e.g. Town Neighbour is allowed, as is Bulletproof Mafioso; 1-shot Town Cop and Town Weak Doctor are disallowed). Exception: Multitasking is allowed for anti-town players.


Feel free to submit your setups in this thread all through September (and to use it to discuss other people's submissions); when October comes, this thread will then be used to vote on which of the proposed setups is the best. If there's a clear winner, they'll be in charge of the requirements for October (unless they choose to delegate to someone else). Good luck, and have fun designing setups!
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

northsidegal
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:35 pm

when did we go from [MONTH CHALLENGE] to [CHALLENGE] Month Challenge, anyways?


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Something_Smart
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:40 pm

July. Blame BNL.


(also ego)
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callforjudgement
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:46 pm

I'd been meaning to change the format as soon as I got a chance, but BNL did so first. It's more consistent to have all the challenges tagged the same way.
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

Not Known 15
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:02 pm

Mafia 1+2+Player 1112345678
1:Mafia Bulletproof + Mafia Hider + Mafia EncryptorMason+Mason+MasonMason+Mason+MasonVigilante + Vengeful + Universal BackupVigilante + Vengeful + Universal BackupVigilante + Vengeful + Universal BackupRolecop + Hider + Motion DetectorRolecop + Hider + Motion DetectorVigilante + Vengeful + Universal Backup
2:Mafia Hider + Mafia Ninja + Mafia EncryptorMason+Mason+MasonMason+Mason+MasonRolecop + Encryptor + Motion DetectorVengeful + CopRolecop + Ninja + Motion DetectorEncryptor + Encryptor + CopRolecop + Hider + Motion DetectorVigilante + Universal Backup
3:Mafia Bulletproof + Mafia Ninja + Mafia EncryptorMason+Mason+MasonMason+Mason+MasonRolecop + Encryptor + Motion DetectorVengeful + CopRolecop + Ninja + Motion DetectorWatcher + Watcher + WatcherVigilante + Universal BackupVigilante + Universal Backup
4:Mafia Encryptor + Mafia Bulletproof + Vanilla TownieNinja + NinjaNinja + NinjaEncryptor + EncryptorEncryptor + EncryptorEncryptor + EncryptorVengefulVengefulEncryptor + Encryptor
5:Mafia Encryptor + Mafia Hider + Vanilla TownieNinja + NinjaNinja + NinjaNinja + NinjaEncryptor + EncryptorMotion DetectorMotion DetectorMotion DetectorVengeful
6:Mafia Encryptor + Mafia Encryptor + Vanilla TownieNinja + NinjaNinja + NinjaEncryptor + EncryptorEncryptor + EncryptorEncryptor + EncryptorVengefulVengefulEncryptor + Encryptor


13 players.
Randomly pick a number between 1 and 8 to pick a column, then randomly pick a number between 1-6 to pick a row. Pick the roles associated with the row (2 mafia+11th player) and the intersection of the picked row and column(1-3 power roles), the rest of players will get a VT role PM.
Last edited by Not Known 15 on Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:14 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Jingle
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:31 pm

Seems like a good chance to take a stab at a new newbie setup, tbh.
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TemporalLich
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:37 pm

Normal Setup #639 players

1 Mafia Multitasking Rolecop
2 Mafia Goons
1 Town Neighborizer
1 Town Vigilante
4 Vanilla Townies

A Normal setup.

All PTs have daytalk.
My micro normal is in signups in the Micro Queue.

time will end

callforjudgement
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:47 pm

6:3? I'd expect that to be very scumsided. (Add four VTs and it's possibly balanced, but might even then be scumsided.)

NK15, how do I read your table?
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

TemporalLich
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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:49 pm

In post 7, callforjudgement wrote:6:3? I'd expect that to be very scumsided. (Add four VTs and it's possibly balanced, but might even then be scumsided.)

NK15, how do I read your table?
Pure Vig is treated as a ridiculously powerful role in that setup.
My micro normal is in signups in the Micro Queue.

time will end

callforjudgement
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:52 pm

It's strong, but I don't think it's that strong. (Admittedly, last time I ran a Micro vig setup the vig was northsidegal, so town wrapped it up pretty quickly, but you can't rely on that happening every time.)
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

OkaPoka
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:22 pm

uh # of vts >= non vanilla including or excluding non town aligned players?

chennisden
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:33 pm

by wording i assume ALL players including mafia

popsofctown
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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:37 pm

All vigs are either northsidegal, or northsidegals wearing fetters of doubt in their own majestic beauty and power. EVs not calculated accordingly are erroneous.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"

callforjudgement
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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:23 am

In post 10, OkaPoka wrote:uh # of vts >= non vanilla including or excluding non town aligned players?

Including non-town-aligned power roles. (Excluding Mafia/Werewolf Goons, who are vanilla.)
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

OkaPoka
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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:55 am

Vig 10PDaytalk standard blah blah
1x Town Vigilante
7x Vanilla Townies

1x Informed Mafioso (You know that one of these three town-aligned players are a Town Vigilante)
1x Goon

TemporalLich
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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:31 am

Normal Setup #63 v1.111 players

1 Mafia Multitasking Rolecop
2 Mafia Goons
1 Town Neighborizer
1 Town Vigilante
6 Vanilla Townies

A Normal setup.

All PTs have daytalk.
Hopefully this is closer to EV-balanced.



I may create an actual setup, but the challenge requirements don't provide much in innovation. My current setup is just called Normal Setup #63 because it's a normal setup.
My micro normal is in signups in the Micro Queue.

time will end

Spangled
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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:48 am

ego
Radical idea — semi-open could also be defined as a setup where it has the possibility of being maybe 9 different, but similar, open setups?

Not Known 15
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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:52 am

In post 7, callforjudgement wrote:NK15, how do I read your table?

I think you should be able to read it now(I edited it).

Something_Smart
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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:36 am

Carbon CopyRandomly choose one of the following subsetups, all equally likely:
  • 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Town Gunsmith, 1 Ascetic Townie, 5 Vanilla Townies
  • 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Town Gunsmith, 1 Town Vanilla Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies
  • 2 Mafia Doctors, 1 Town Gunsmith, 1 Town Vanilla Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies
  • 2 Mafia Doctors, 1 Town Vanilla Cop, 1 Ascetic Townie, 5 Vanilla Townies
"I didn't have time to write a short post, so I wrote a long one instead."
~Mark Twain, probably

popsofctown
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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:36 am

@NK15: Are the Ninjas in Row 4 Column 1 intended to function as named townies who share a name with eachother but don't have meaningful power?

If so I would suggest, for identical functionality and slightly more elegance, that they be Informed Townies, information: "You know that there is only two mafia." or "You know that there is one other Informed Townie".
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"

Something_Smart
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Post Post #20  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:38 am

There are town ninjas in 3-scum setups too, though. Presumably they're meant to serve as potential millers for the town rolecop.
"I didn't have time to write a short post, so I wrote a long one instead."
~Mark Twain, probably

popsofctown
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Post Post #21  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:47 am

S_S are you -also- doing named townies?
Gunsmith gets "no result" on ascetic townie and knows to clear the slot, which is a sane innocent result the same way it would be if he investigated a VT.
Vanilla Cop gets "no result" when investigating the Ascetic townie. That lets him immediately clear the slot rather than wait for the first flip as with the VTs, I guess, but that's so very marginally different from getting a "Vanilla" result, since in the only subsetup where a town vanilla cop can hit the ascetic townie, the slot will -eventually- be clear.

It doesn't break the setup or anything, I guess. It's just kinda weird.


pedit: ah. I scanned for ninjas in the 3 scum setups but didn't see the ninjas sprinkled in there.
That's true. I can't think of a vacuous informed modifier to use, then.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"

Something_Smart
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Post Post #22  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:57 am

In post 21, popsofctown wrote:S_S are you -also- doing named townies?

Pretty much, yes.

The original version of the setup had VT's instead of ascetic townies, but I realized that it was way too easy for guiltied scum in setups 1 and 4 to get away with claiming the missing investigatives and that made these setups significantly more scumsided than the other two.

I did ascetic because it was a named townie with the neat perk of being 100% confirmable on being checked. I'm not totally happy with it, but I definitely think it's better.
"I didn't have time to write a short post, so I wrote a long one instead."
~Mark Twain, probably

Something_Smart
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Post Post #23  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:59 am

Gunsmith doesn't get an immediate clear on VT's, btw-- mafia doctors also return no gun. Absent a scumflip or a massclaim, neither investigative can 100% clear any VT's.
"I didn't have time to write a short post, so I wrote a long one instead."
~Mark Twain, probably

popsofctown
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Post Post #24  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:06 pm

In post 23, Something_Smart wrote:Gunsmith doesn't get an immediate clear on VT's, btw-- mafia doctors also return no gun. Absent a scumflip or a massclaim, neither investigative can 100% clear any VT's.

Yeah I don't play enough Normal games to learn these things.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"

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