[OLD] Open/Semi-Open Design Challenge

[BBmolla]

Alternatively:
1 Beloved Princess/Innocent Child
1 Bodyguard
1 Mafia Suicide Bomber
1 Goon
4 or 6 VTs

Holy shit, Voided I literally posted an almost identical setup earlier today in the hidden forums
(Also, according to the card atm, the Beloved Princess is the version that causes the next day to be skipped if lynched.)

8 player setup:

In Another Castle

1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Suicide Bomber
3 Vanilla Townies
1 Town Bodygaurd
2 - Choose from

• [Town Beloved Princess, Vanilla Townie]
  
• [Town Lover, Town Lover]

Edit: Here's the other setup I suggested.

9 player setup:

Son of the Cop

If the miller dies, the cop may not investigate at night anymore.

2 Mafia Goons
1 Town Cop
1 Town Miller
5 Vanilla Town

Edit2: No Jester in the deck, sorry folks. There is a lyncher and serial killer.

Edit3: Here's a bunch of birds with one stone.

12 player setup:

Classic Rivals

1 Mafia Ninja
1 Mafia Godfather
1 Mafia Doctor
1 Town Cop
1 Town Tracker
1 Town Vig
6 Vanilla Town

Player size might be arguable, but every PR can affect 2 out of the 3 mafia if all 3 mafia are alive, and I think that's very elegent.
12 players - 3 (lynch, kill, vig) = 9 which is ideal imo.
I feel like this is an existing Epicmafia setup but idk

Edit4: Innocent Child is version that chooses when they want to flip.

[BBmolla]

iller is an auto-claim; it *might* present an interesting choice for the scum whether to counter or not, but I don't think they can, in which case the Miller may as well be an Innocent Child. If they counter and one is lynched at random, you have a 50% shot at the town being in amazing shape (scum probably has to try to pick off the Cop on no info, if they miss it's really bad), and a 50% shot at the Miller being lynched followed by scum the next day, down to 1:4 possibly with the Cop still alive to claim and act as the IC.

This is the challenge with the Miller, avoiding a situation where he won't be an uncountered claim day 1. Probably the only reasonable way to do it is make it semi-open. Something like:

?

Read the italics, if the miller dies, the cop can't investigate anymore. The Miller is a cop enabler. AKA, you claim, cop is boned.

[BBmolla]

x1 Town Miller[recieves VT PM]

Stuff like this won't work btw.

[BBmolla]

Just wanted to throw in my support for BBMolla's 12-player set-up. Elegant is a good word for it. I wonder if adding the condition of the Miller/Cop tie in the 9-player set-up is good for the sake of simplicity/clarity? I feel like for a card-version of the game, each role card needs to function the same. I feel like if I buy a card-version of mafia, I'm going to want to introduce it to my group of friends, who play party games similar to mafia, but aren't involved in forum mafia and are thus less familiar with its nuances. Basically, added complexity can needlessly limit your potential player pool, if that makes sense.

Perhaps I'm a bit off-base and don't fully understand the project?

While I agree, I just used the setup with the miller a couple nights ago when introducing some players. I just tried to rationalize it by saying the miller was the son of the cop, so if he dies the cop quits his job out of grief, for how could he possibly think his son was mafia.

1. What does this mean?

It means that the Innocent Child is not revealed at start, instead may reveal themselves as IC at any time.

@mith: Claiming d2 is probably optimal yeah.
I know extra rules are bleh, but this has worked really well in practice.

[BBmolla]

For K9, mafia get really screwed in the setup with Miller. Tracker gets counter claimed, ensuring his demise one night or the next. Wouldn't it be better if it were flipped like this:

K9

1 Mafia Tracker <-- Both to make use of it again and because I know what the art is <_<
1 Town Cop
5 Vanilla Town
2 Choose:

• Mafia Goon, Vanilla Town
  
• Mafia Godfather, Town Miller

In the second setup in this case, Tracker is probably boned, but Mafia aren't as screwed cause they have Godfather.

Miller always claims d1 obviously, which is just how Miller is going to be in base setups.

Unless I'm misunderstanding optimal strategy

[BBmolla]

Oh. I'll just scratch the setup then. Wasn't my fav to begin with.

Lemme tell you why, sorry. Everyone is passed out a card, and most of the times the open setups will be run without mods the first nights. Meaning making someone a secret miller would be very difficult.

I suppose you could take the person lynched day 1, have them tell all VTs to raise their hands while everyone is asleep, and assign one of them miller, but that's kind of complex.

9 player setup:

Son of the Cop

If the miller dies, the cop may not investigate at night anymore.

1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Mafia Goon
1 Town Cop
1 Town Miller
5 Vanilla Town

Adding Rolecop should fix this setup a bit, no?

P-Edit: Oooooooh got it. That's easy to mod, just have whoever is announcing stuff say "Godfather if you exist, raise your hand." Your original is fine, it makes sense. Really nice actually.

[BBmolla]

Actually flipping it the way I did might work better.

If the Tracker's fake claim goes well, the cop literally can't find any Mafia in setup 1 and is useless. However in the other setup, he can find two of them. If you flip it, he can find one and one which I think is more balanced?

[BBmolla]

That's only if the fake claim goes well, though, which is a big if. The other thing is that in either version, if the non-Tracker scum flips, town now knows if the Miller claim was legit. The Tracker claim would be extremely risky... but is probably still worth it some small percentage of the time.

The other fix is to randomize both and just tell the scum if there is a Miller or not, but that's inelegant.

Once again you're right. Makes sense.

[BBmolla]

Maybe making Miller a sticker would be more interesting. Miller-Beloved Princess could be fun in a semi-open; Miller-PR wouldn't be as likely to claim immediately.

Definitely not a terrible idea. My only gripe with it is I absolutely love the miller art.

Edit: Why not both?

Edit2:

[BBmolla]

11 player setup:

Thrill On A No Kill

1 Mafia Suicide Bomber
1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Traitor
1 Town Doctor
1 Town Jailkeeper
6 Vanilla Town

Atm, my Traitor card says "You do not know who the mafia are. You learn their identities if you are targeted by their kill" but this setup assumes recruitment upon being nightkilled and being told who mafia are at the start.

No kill could mean so many things, which will also help with the balance of having 3 scum in 11 players. Suicide Bomber is in play to stop Jailkeeper from claiming day 1.

[BBmolla]

90% certain cult is in expansion atm.

[BBmolla]

Private forums, I'd divulge everything but I don't know what mith wants to say and what he doesn't want to.

[BBmolla]

11 player setup:

Thrill On A No Kill

1 Mafia Suicide Bomber
1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Traitor
1 Town Doctor
1 Town Jailkeeper
6 Vanilla Town

[BBmolla]

We did agree though that claiming D2 was probably optimal.

+Rolecop or not, what do you think AP

[BBmolla]

Possibly don't make the lover IC? Allow scum to counter claim if they really want to?

Probably doesn't do much in the long run, but adds some options in playing the setup.

[BBmolla]

Scumsided = Balanced face to face.

I still say make one lover not an innocent child and give the option of claiming or not/allowing mafia to counter claim if they want.

[BBmolla]

As in allowing mafia to counter claim lover day 1 if they want. Obviously it's dumb, but hey, it could possibly out the other lover.

I mean, the setup will probably be played with one lover claiming anyway, so why not?

[BBmolla]

hmmm

I think going into n1 with the lovers unknown actually slightly decreases the expected town win rate, because chance that the lovers will be shot goes up drastically if JK is picking at random.

If that's the case, then it's in town's interest for one of the lovers to claim during day 1 anyways, so it might be a moot point. (or worse, punishes casual players)

Could allow the jailkeeper to be played more offensively though, which your setup currently denies.

[BBmolla]

Sure, but could allow it from the start

[BBmolla]

In addition, millers should not know that they are a miller, and to them will just appear as a VT.

Once again, not possible in face to face.

[BBmolla]

But why play a setup face to face with a mod

Edit: Why play an open setup face to face with a mod

[BBmolla]

8 player setup:

Odd Couples

1 Mafia Goon
1 Town Vigilante
2 Vanilla Townies
4 - Choose 4 from

• [Town Beloved Princess, Mafia Roleblocker]
  
• [Town Supersaint, Mafia Rolecop]
  
• [Vengeful Townie, Mafia Suicide Bomber]
  
• [Town PGO, Mafia Vanillaizer]

[BBmolla]

Oy vey I mistyped. It should be 2:6, Mafia Goon should be Vanilla Town. I was wondering what the best power role would be and you're right that Vanillla Cop would be best.

If you add Vanilla Cop we can also add Cold Stone

[BBmolla]

Sorry, really tired, Vanilla Cop was for the above setup not mine. It'd work in mine instead of Vig though I think.

[BBmolla]

Look forward to "A Role That Flips" mafia in the micro queue

[BBmolla]

I played We Need a Fifth followed by Vengeful for literally 3 hours the other night.

4 you play WNAF
5 you play Vengeful
6 you play Hotline or Lovers Nightless
7 you have a ton of options

[BBmolla]

Hotline

AKA mini scumhunters 8p

[BBmolla]

less than 1 scum in a setup is pretty terrible imo, just cause the fun part of mafia is connections

But I know not everyone shares my opinion

[BBmolla]

8 player setup:

Odd Couples

1 Town Vigilante
3 Vanilla Townies
4 - Choose 4 from

• [Town Beloved Princess, Mafia Roleblocker]
  
• [Town Supersaint, Mafia Rolecop]
  
• [Vengeful Townie, Mafia Suicide Bomber]
  
• [Town PGO, Mafia Vanillaizer]

Could add another PR if needed, but town will already have three named roles so.

Definitely a bit more of a wacky setup.

[BBmolla]

8 player setup:

Odd Couples

1 Town Vigilante
3 Vanilla Townies
4 - Choose 2 pairs from

• [Town Beloved Princess, Mafia Roleblocker]
  
• [Town Supersaint, Mafia Rolecop]
  
• [Vengeful Townie, Mafia Suicide Bomber]
  
• [Town PGO, Mafia Vanillaizer]

Beloved Princess is version that only skips next day if lynched. Vanillaize resolves before PGO.

Should be more clear?