[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[LicketyQuickety]

"If there is not a switching mechanic, it is just too town sided" is not equivalent to "it is a good idea to have a switching mechanic".

If you get to day 3 with both Cops alive, and you haven't already lynched scum, that means there is only one Townie left. It's certainly possible that the Cops will be able to piece together whether they have been switched or not (investigating the same player on different nights would do it),

if

there is no counterclaim, but if you are in this situation obviously one of the scum will claim Cop and muddy the results further.

If you don't get to day 3 with both Cops alive, as Jason points out there is not enough information for the remaining Cop to go on.

When you say "investigate your strongest reads", what you seem to be implying is that you should rely on those reads to determine what your sanity is, rather than relying on your results to determine what your target's alignment is. Which you should be doing anyway, so what is the Cop role adding?

[edit]Also, if what you're after is "Cops should try to stay alive so they can solve the game day 3", just make that their role:

2 Masons
5 Townies
1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Mafia Goon

If both Masons are alive when there are 5 players remaining, town wins.
[/edit]

You make good points, I can't argue that. The thing is though, that you seem to be taking the game section by section and not as a whole. I don't think the cop is necessarily a wash if one cop dies because they can investigate the same person more than once. So if there is a switch, it is known that their reads can be reliable from that point onward. If there are more VT added, this gives a better chance that Cops survive to claim. Alternatively, everyone can say who they are going to investigate that night and leave their peeks then next day. This way, it provides cover for cops in the case that one dies. if the game goes long enough, a cop can peek the same person again to see if they have switched yet (I am not married to the amount of VT in this game). Also, there is a different between mason and Cop in this context because mason deals with collaborative information while Cope deals with singular information.

Investigating your strongest reads tells the cop how certain he can be of his reads primarily, not necessarily that his checks will be correct. I admit that Cops primary role in this game does not really function as an alignment checker, but more as a confidence meter. If the Cop wants, they can check the same person every night until there is a switch and then he can then depend on his alignment checks.

Masons work differently in many ways in the setup you suggest as replacement. For one, the collaborative component is something that is not found in the setup I have put forth. With masons, you can do things like coded messages that you can predetermine before hand which is not something you can do with a sane and insane cop. Another difference is that if Cop plays the part of what alignment a player is as a single player with a clear result either way. This is different than mason in that masons can disagree on reads or agree on them or a mix of both. I would also argue that masons in a game like this could be much more exponential in the info Town has to work with as the game goes on rather than linear. The reason for this is that masons have an exponential amount of info coming in as the game goes on based on the fact that they can clear each other and this in combination with the fact that as time progresses the masons can get closer to agreeing on reads thereby making synergy a factor not to be ignored. With this said, two masons pushing the same player(s) is not something you get with a sane and insane cop since Scum can CC.

IDK if I have argued my point well enough. I have a hard time explaining what my actual thoughts are sometimes. There is prolly more I can say about this given structure to work with.

[mith]

I know what the difference between a Mason and a Cop is; I wasn't suggesting that they are equivalent. All I am saying is that in the setup as presented (with 9 players), there is a very small chance of the Cops getting useful information out of their abilities, that that very small chance primarily lies within the case where both of them survive to day 3 and can compare results, and that you can get the same feel of "try to survive to day 3" without the investigative nonsense. (Making the two survivor roles Masons is just a twist to make the setup more interesting - it gives the scum something to look for, vs. having two named townies who don't know each other.)

The fact that you're suggesting it might be a good idea for a Cop to investigate the same player repeatedly until the result changes is just emphasizing the point that these "Cops" are basically useless. Further problems with this idea include:

There's a chance the Switch will be the day 1 lynch, in which case they will never get a different result.
There's a chance their target *is* the Switch, in which case they will never get a different result until their target dies and they have to change targets, and won't know that the switch has happened when they start getting results on that target.

Now, I grant that I am stating all of this a little strongly. There are chances for a single Cop to get

something

useful (if only in terms of probabilities rather than certainties). But these considerations don't outweigh the badness of a hidden santiy-switching role.

(A setup with a single Cop who doesn't know his sanity might be reasonably balanced at 2:7; by day 3, if he survives, he will at least know whether two players have the same alignment or not, and if either of them has died he will know what the other one is. That plus the named townie effect might be enough of a boost to get the town to a reasonable EV. Of course, we can get around the "sanity" thing entirely by just defining a new type of investigative role who gets results of same/different alignment from a reference chosen night 1 (or night 0).)

[LicketyQuickety]

I know what the difference between a Mason and a Cop is; I wasn't suggesting that they are equivalent. All I am saying is that in the setup as presented (with 9 players), there is a very small chance of the Cops getting useful information out of their abilities, that that very small chance primarily lies within the case where both of them survive to day 3 and can compare results, and that you can get the same feel of "try to survive to day 3" without the investigative nonsense. (Making the two survivor roles Masons is just a twist to make the setup more interesting - it gives the scum something to look for, vs. having two named townies who don't know each other.)

The fact that you're suggesting it might be a good idea for a Cop to investigate the same player repeatedly until the result changes is just emphasizing the point that these "Cops" are basically useless. Further problems with this idea include:

There's a chance the Switch will be the day 1 lynch, in which case they will never get a different result.
There's a chance their target *is* the Switch, in which case they will never get a different result until their target dies and they have to change targets, and won't know that the switch has happened when they start getting results on that target.

Now, I grant that I am stating all of this a little strongly. There are chances for a single Cop to get

something

useful (if only in terms of probabilities rather than certainties). But these considerations don't outweigh the badness of a hidden santiy-switching role.

(A setup with a single Cop who doesn't know his sanity might be reasonably balanced at 2:7; by day 3, if he survives, he will at least know whether two players have the same alignment or not, and if either of them has died he will know what the other one is. That plus the named townie effect might be enough of a boost to get the town to a reasonable EV. Of course, we can get around the "sanity" thing entirely by just defining a new type of investigative role who gets results of same/different alignment from a reference chosen night 1 (or night 0).)

So basically, the right answer for me to have given was flips?

Can you talk a little more about the chance of a new role, how that works and possibly what the +EV play is for them? You are basically saying to create a role where they are told if the person they investigated the night before is the same as the one current investigation, correct?

[Edit] I can see this working where they get a N0 check and there is 3P involved. IDK if the check would be randomized or picked. I also don't know if this is the kind of role that would be best in a small game or big game. How would this work if there are more than one of them in the game? It seems it would be relatively easy to solve the game with 2 of them (that are aligned with Town).

I noticed you didn't say anything about the amount of VT in the setup I suggested. I was thinking (possibly naively) that with more VT this gives the Cops a better chance at surviving long enough to be useful, but you disagree? What if the Cops got a N0 peek? iirc, you are saying my setup is just plain a bad idea?

[mith]

I guess what I'm saying is that roles like a "hidden sanity switcher" are a really bad idea unless there is a really compelling reason to have them, and that you haven't established that this game is such a compelling reason. The closest comparison is dethy, which was as much a puzzle as a Mafia game (IIRC, town can either win outright or get it down to a 50/50 with best play, and the scum is at the mercy of the claim order in affecting which happens). This setup is not as interesting a puzzle, the puzzle is unsolvable most of the time, and neither side has much control over whether the puzzle ends up solvable or not.

[LicketyQuickety]

I guess what I'm saying is that roles like a "hidden sanity switcher" are a really bad idea unless there is a really compelling reason to have them, and that you haven't established that this game is such a compelling reason. The closest comparison is dethy, which was as much a puzzle as a Mafia game (IIRC, town can either win outright or get it down to a 50/50 with best play, and the scum is at the mercy of the claim order in affecting which happens). This setup is not as interesting a puzzle, the puzzle is unsolvable most of the time, and neither side has much control over whether the puzzle ends up solvable or not.

K, I think I understand your viewpoint much much better now. You are basically saying if it isn't necessary then there is no point and that I haven't proven that the switching mechanic is necessary. I will just say that without it and with a sane cop and insane cop, the game is too townsided (a point you agree with iirc) in that there is a very clear way to solve the game because at the very moment that there is a flip on someone who has been investigated, the game is very close to being solved. My intent with the setup was to not give Town an overwhelming advantage but keeping in two cops for fun factor. It gives the Cops in the game a lot to chew on and this might impact the game in intangible ways.

But your point is seen. It is unnecessary because I cannot argue that it is as the creator of the setup.

Dang, I really thought that had potential.

[Ircher]

Follow the Scum

Mafia Seer

Mafia Insane Seer

Werewolf Cop

Werewolf Insane Cop

Town Neopolitan

Town Insane Neopolitan

Town Vanilla Cop

6 * VT

Sanity is not known, but will flip properly.

[LicketyQuickety]

Follow the Scum

Mafia Seer

Mafia Insane Seer

Werewolf Cop

Werewolf Insane Cop

Town Neopolitan

Town Insane Neopolitan

Town Vanilla Cop

6 * VT

Sanity is not known, but will flip properly.

I have some questions.

do mafia share a chat and werewolf share a chat? Do they get their investigations in the shared chat thread or in a private chat?
can mafia and werewolf investigate and do the NK at the same time?
What is the point of 2x Neapolitans (sane and insane) when half the game is already checked as non VT?

[Ircher]

1) Duh! I'd prob. do night talk only tho
2) They can submit it like they do faction kills
3) Hrm... Good Q --> Which is better for balance?
4) Finding scum prs.

[xyzzy]

Copmaker

2 Mafia
7 Town

At the beginning of the game, a random townie will become the Copmaker, who gets to select one player each night to receive an investigative result. If the Copmaker dies, a new random townie will be selected as the Copmaker.

The Copmaker will not have their identity revealed as such when they die. If the player the Copmaker targets is also targeted by the Mafia factional kill, that player's identity as the Cop for the night will not be revealed.

[callforjudgement]

Who chooses which player the investigative result is about?

Anyway, I suspect this is townsided, because the Copmakers can prove their towniness via claiming (or else end up in a 1v1); they don't have to fear being NKed by scum as that doesn't actually hurt town's chances, so they can just claim as soon as they get the role. It has a lot of similarities with the closed/semiopen setup Cop + 6 VT vs. 2 Goon (which is known to be balanced); both have one investigation result per night, and one player who can claim and is either counterclaimed by scum (leading to a 1v1) or confirmed. The difference is that there's no way for the Cop to die early here (they can only be suppressed for one night), so some of the worse possibilities for town are much less likely, and that probably makes the setup townsided overall.

[implosion]

I had an incredibly silly idea for an open setup a couple nights ago inspired a bit by greatest idea (or whichever _____ idea it is).

Choose-your-own-adventure C9++

Generate 3 games with the player list according to the rules of C9++ (or JK9++ or any other variants). Send every player in the game presumptive role PMs from all three setups (so player x might learn that they're a cop in game 1, a vt in game 2, and a mafia godfather with players y and z in game 3).

There is then a pre-day 1 phase where players vote on which game they'd like to play, with a majority vote required to choose a game. Once that vote happens, the setups for the other two games are publicly revealed and the game starts as normal.

There is a bit of trickiness with what "play to your win condition" means in the pre-day phase. Obviously it would be against the rules to say something like "I hate playing as scum and i'm only scum in setup 3 so pick setup 1 or 2." I haven't really thought it through much, I just thought it seemed interesting.

[callforjudgement]

You could have the setup vote done via PM, then have the votes revealed at the end of the signups. At that point, scum would know that they were scum and could fakeclaim with knowledge of that. (This would require a plurality rather than majority vote.)

I suspect it'd be townsided, though, as there's still a lot of things that could trip scum up. In particular, do they fakeclaim what their roles in the nonchosen setups were too?

[xyzzy]

Who chooses which player the investigative result is about?

Anyway, I suspect this is townsided, because the Copmakers can prove their towniness via claiming (or else end up in a 1v1); they don't have to fear being NKed by scum as that doesn't actually hurt town's chances, so they can just claim as soon as they get the role. It has a lot of similarities with the closed/semiopen setup Cop + 6 VT vs. 2 Goon (which is known to be balanced); both have one investigation result per night, and one player who can claim and is either counterclaimed by scum (leading to a 1v1) or confirmed. The difference is that there's no way for the Cop to die early here (they can only be suppressed for one night), so some of the worse possibilities for town are much less likely, and that probably makes the setup townsided overall.

the player the Copmaker selects decides who to investigate; if I were running this, if just have each townie submit a result for who to investigate if they get chosen.

another factor is that it's possible for the mafia to be chosen by the Copmaker; if a townie is lynched D1, for instance, then N1 there's a significant chance that no living town player gets a result. I forgot to mention this in my original post, but one crucial detail is that the mafia knows if they're selected by the Copmaker, which makes fake claiming investigative results more interesting—in particular, claiming a town result on your partner is actually feasible here, because there's less of a guarantee that a player who is "confirmed" town will be killed at night because of some WIFOM-y interplay between the mafia and the Copmaker (if you're the Copmaker, do you pick the "confirmed" player and hope they don't die? if you're mafia, do you kill someone who's for real confirmed, or do you pick a town player you think the Copmaker will select?).

[BBmolla]

Sharing is Caring was run here.

It was also run over at Mafia Universe I discovered (won't link for obvious reasons). The mass agreement was it was too townsided because you can have like 4 clears day 2 if everyone mass claims and suggested replacing Mafia Doctor with Jailkeeper. It's also noteable the framer died over there night 1.

Wanted to get some thoughts. I'm pretty okay changing Mafia Doc to Jailkeeper and I think the reason it seemed more balanced here is less than ideal play from town PRs.

[callforjudgement]

As I see it, the basic problem is that town gets more benefit from spamming their roles than scum do. One cop scan gives you one confirmation. Two vig kills gives you two confirmations (because if you shoot town twice, you end up gaining a mislynch which neatly cancels out the two dead townies). The JK probably shouldn't act until later in the game, because JK shots are more valuable the longer the game goes on and you want to conserve roles for the other power roles early. Meanwhile, the scum's power roles are a lot more marginal. Framer doesn't do anything unless it hits the cop's target (and scum's frame is only one-way; inno results from the cop are reliable, and more common than guilty results). Doctor doesn't do anything unless it hits the Vigilante's target. Rolecop is the most useful role there, and it doesn't have an immediate effect (basically it lets you shut down a power role two nights later, because it takes one night to scan them and another to NK them).

In a shared-shot-reservoir setup like this, therefore, having a larger number of shots available will help out town much more than it will scum. Scum don't really have much to do with their number of shots (and in Open 634 which you linked, it's possible to observe scum wasting their shots on marginal actions simply because they had no better use). Town, meanwhile, can make excellent use of all six of their shots. That is, I suspect, what causes the townsidedness of the setup.

In order to fix it, either the scum need more useful roles, or the number of total shots available needs to start lower. JK versus JK sounds like an action resolution nightmare to me, so might not be the best fix, but it's thinking along the right lines. I might also consider decreasing X and Y to 3. (The setup is obviously scumsided with X and Y at 0, so there's likely a balanced number somewhere in the range.)

[Realeo]

I have a question. Does a setup with EV of town/mafia/SK = 33/42/25 can be considered balanced enough?

[JasonWazza]

I mean i don't think an SK should ever have a 25% EV, let alone town only having a 33% EV.

[callforjudgement]

Arguably, the only balanced EV in multiball is 50/50/50, but that'd take some very bizarre win conditions to get right.

Speaking more seriously, it's unclear to me whether 50/25/25 or 33/33/33 is a better balance to aim for in a multiball game.

[BBmolla]

I was under the impression 40/50/10 was the ideal in a town/maf/sk scenario.

SK winrate should be very low.

[LicketyQuickety]

I was under the impression 40/50/10 was the ideal in a town/maf/sk scenario.

SK winrate should be very low.

Why?

[BBmolla]

Because SKs lose if they're lynched. Other factions have a bit more room for error. Imagine if lynching one town lost town the game. Or if lynching one mafia lost mafia the game.

Unless I'm misunderstanding EV, most possible scenarios should result in an SK loss.

[Realeo]

I thought that I should make it as even as possible (33/33/33) because a lot of people start to hate SK for being impossible like skill-less survivor.

[Realeo]

I may as well throw in the idea I have in my hea

Russian Roulette Mafia

7 Vanilla Town
1 Town Roleblocker
2 Mafia Goon
1 Terrorist (Roleblocker Immune)

Town wins when both mafia and serial killer are eliminated and at least 1 Town member is alive.
Mafia wins when both mafia and all town are eliminated (or nothing that can prevent that) and at least 1 Mafia member is alive.
Terrorist wins when all mafia member and all town member are eliminated (or nothing that can prevent that). Terrorist is not required to be alive.

Mafia does not necessarily win with majority.

Day phase:
Classic Mafia with majority vote.

Night phase:
At the beginning of the game, each player has an empty revolver.

• Each town member will secretly give a bullet to another player.
  
• Roleblocker may block a plyer from using his bullet action.
  
• The Mafia faction will have factional 2 bullets that they can send secretly. If both mafia are alive, they can split the bullet (ie. Have each goon send 1 bullet to different target/same target). If only 1 goon is alive, the goon must send both bullet to one target
  
• The terrorist will kill a player directly without the Russian Roulette mechanism.

A revolver has 6 chambers. If a player has at least 6 bullets, the player is night-killed. If in a night phase, no one is night-killed due to the "6 bullets rule", the player with the most bullet is night-killed. If there is a tie, no one is night-killed due to the bullet.

Bullets from previous night carries on to the next night.

Action Resolve:
1. Roleblocker
2. Bullet
3. Terrorists kill
4. 6 Bullet Rule
5. No nightkill rule

Kingmaker prevention:
If a dayphase starts with Town Roleblocker / Terrorist / Mafia Goon, the game thread is locked and the game enters the special phase. The Town Roleblocker is given 48 hours to guess who is the Serial Killer. If Town Roleblocker guesses correctly, Town/Terrorist joint-win. If Town Roleblocker guesses incorrectly, Terrorist wins alone.
Town Vanilla / Terrorist / Mafia Goon is not a kingmaker situation.

EV:
According to computer simulation--The EV is 33% for Town, 42% for Mafia and 25% for terrorist.

Caveat:
It is for Terrorist's favour to not kill Town Roleblocker to help Terrorist compensate for Mafia. When both mafia are eliminated, Town Roleblocker essentially become Named Townie and it is in Terrorist's favour to kill him.
In a 3 way lylo with Roleblocker, it is wise for Roleblocker to claim.
"""

[Zyf]

This is sort of separate but
Are there any matrix6 games that are not in newb queue?

[callforjudgement]

This is sort of separate but
Are there any matrix6 games that are not in newb queue?

Micro 180, Micro 188, Micro 247. (Only one's linked, because I found the other two by searching for the signup threads.)