[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[Jingle]

Technically not mafia, despite being hidden information (there's no informed minority). EV is exactly 50% if you change it to 3:3:3 and probably plays out similarly to BoP Mafia. (50/50 in each hood so all right and all wrong are equally likely, 50/50 in the final trio). There is a slight townsiding influence in that the IC in the second round knows at least one hood chose wrong, but it's not really useful from a POE stance because they don't know which one or whether said player is even in the final grouping.

For reference, BoP is observably balanced, but has a third townsiding faction instead of the ICs.

Notably: you could have a separate queue for the IC roles to allow players to self select whether they want to be in that role.

Also notably: the EV remains unchanged for every setup where the size is n:n:n.

[Irrelephant11]

Technically not mafia, despite being hidden information (there's no informed minority). EV is exactly 50% if you change it to 3:3:3 and probably plays out similarly to BoP Mafia. (50/50 in each hood so all right and all wrong are equally likely, 50/50 in the final trio). There is a slight townsiding influence in that the IC in the second round knows at least one hood chose wrong, but it's not really useful from a POE stance because they don't know which one or whether said player is even in the final grouping.

For reference, BoP is observably balanced, but has a third townsiding faction instead of the ICs.

Notably: you could have a separate queue for the IC roles to allow players to self select whether they want to be in that role.

Also notably: the EV remains unchanged for every setup where the size is n:n:n.

I think making it 3:3:3 would make it mafia and make it easier to fill, so this is good feedback!

[RH9]

Technically not mafia, despite being hidden information (there's no informed minority). EV is exactly 50% if you change it to 3:3:3 and probably plays out similarly to BoP Mafia. (50/50 in each hood so all right and all wrong are equally likely, 50/50 in the final trio). There is a slight townsiding influence in that the IC in the second round knows at least one hood chose wrong, but it's not really useful from a POE stance because they don't know which one or whether said player is even in the final grouping.

For reference, BoP is observably balanced, but has a third townsiding faction instead of the ICs.

Notably: you could have a separate queue for the IC roles to allow players to self select whether they want to be in that role.

Also notably: the EV remains unchanged for every setup where the size is n:n:n.

I think making it 3:3:3 would make it mafia and make it easier to fill, so this is good feedback!

I agree.
Though, if keeping it at 12 players is preferred, 4:4:4 is also a good idea.

[TemporalLich]

Mostly posting this to see if anyone would want to create a Dark Creature setup... here is 2d3 but with Dark Creatures:

Dark 2d3

One row and one column are selected randomly to provide 2 town and 1 dark creature role, and the remaining slots are filled with 5 vanilla townies and 1 dark creature to create a 9 player setup.

	A	B	C
	Dark Creature Roleblocker	Dark Creature Role Cop	Dark Creature
Row 1	Town Darkseeker and Town Neapolitan	Town Darkseeker and Town Tracker	Town Darkseeker and Vanilla Townie
Row 2	Town Ordinator and Town Lightbearer	Town Ordinator and Town Tracker	Town Ordinator and Vanilla Townie
Row 3	Town Darkseeker and Town Lightbearer	Town Neapolitan and Town Lightbearer	Town Tracker and Town Lightbearer

Dark Creatures have a factional Plunge in Darkness ability, roleblocking their target and causing them to die at the end of the next Night. Dark Creatures have inherent multitasking and daytalk.

Darkseeker checks for Dark Creature or Not Dark Creature.

Lightbearer protects from plunging into darkness, and also prevents a death from plunging into darkness.

Ordinator roleblocks as well as acting as a Lightbearer. Dark Creatures and Roleblockers act before Ordinators.

Normal roles act as their Normal counterparts.

I doubt this would be balanced, and maybe the Lightbearer ability should be weakened to simply preventing plunging into darkness.

[Jingle]

Factional poisoner instead of kill is one of those roles that supports an evens setup, so this might be better off as an 8p or 10p. Otherwise, the play for D1 is probably optimally to no elim with no discussion, which is just kind of feels bad. It looks pretty close to runnable as an 8p, which is a setup number we don't have a ton of options for anyway, but would need significant tweaking imo to be a 10p.

This is probably slightly more scumsided than regular 2D3 as an 8p (very slightly more likely to lim scum D1, slightly less information netted N1, same phases to victory math), not sure how the stats on that shake out.

[GrandpaMo]

how do yall think of this setup. this would be classified as bastard i believe.

so the setup would be this.

Open Setup

Players:

5 (3 town, 2 mafia)

Mechanics:

Nightless but with 24 hour twilight where mafia has another check. However I think this should be played in blitz mode. 1 hour days / 30 min nights?

Town:

2 x Vengeful Townie (Martyr)
1 x Miller

Mafia:

2 x Head Start Informed Cop

Vengeful Townie:

Just a VT, but when condemned they have the opportunity to shoot another player with them.

Miller:

VT that is sided as mafia. Both Mafia are informed about this role.

Bastard Mechanic:

Both Town roles will be given a normal VT role instead, they do not know if they are a vengeful townie or miller.

H

ead Start Informed Cop:

Mafia are uninformed to each other (no mafia pt/daytalk). Mafia is informed about miller's identity. Submits a pregame alignment check.

Town Wincon:

Martyr shoots mafia cop or condemn mafia cop.

Mafia Wincon:

Mafia cop condemns miller.

Basically the point of this setup is to have the two mafia cops check in pregame to find each other. This is the point of the setup; for mafia to find each other and win by wanting to condemn the miller.

How to win:

In the pregame phase, the cops will check so they can receive a guilty result. If they receive a guilty result, they found their mafia partner and can help soft that to their partner during the day but they can't make it obvious. They have to basically tell their partner that hey I know who the miller is so listen to me.

The main goal for mafia is to push the miller out because if they do that, they auto win. but if both mafia push, it will be obvious to the martyrs who the possible mafia is. Martyrs can try to fake being a mafia cop by pushing someone or softing but the other martyr might get suspicious of that. If mafia fails to get miller but instead get martyr, this is only town's second chance if martyr can shoot correctly. If they do, they go to day 2, with 2 martyrs, 1 miller, and 1 mafia. Now mafia just has to play smart here and has another chance.

Now this can be played with either alignment reveal or role reveal off. Role reveal will be more difficult but way more fun. It is preferred to play it RR off because if they condemn mafia, town won't know if its patsy or mafia and mafia has a better chance at winning as solo scum.

Just to make you aware, this is a ported mafia setup as a VC setup that I think will be very fun here

[GrandpaMo]

i plan on modding this btw ^

[Jingle]

Looks reminiscent of WNAF.

60% town ev, which is kind of high, but not outrageous given game size. Perfect EV if you add a Miller and have mafia win if they both survive N1.

[Jingle]

Also, bastard doesn’t really mean much in the context of opens. Everyone knows the bastard element so they don’t need a warning.

[GrandpaMo]

Looks reminiscent of WNAF.

60% town ev, which is kind of high, but not outrageous given game size. Perfect EV if you add a Miller.

60 isnt bad but what is WNAF?

[GrandpaMo]

Also, bastard doesn’t really mean much in the context of opens. Everyone knows the bastard element so they don’t need a warning.

ah ok gotchu

[Jingle]

WNAF is we need a fifth. 2 maf 2 town setup that’s usually popular around marathon times.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ed_A_Fifth

Technically not mafia by modern standards because no informed minority, I think, but fun nonetheless.

[Jingle]

Or used to be.

[GrandpaMo]

WNAF is we need a fifth. 2 maf 2 town setup that’s usually popular around marathon times.

what happened to marathon mafia? when do those usually get up because this setup is better for that

[GrandpaMo]

also any title suggestions?

[Jingle]

Marathons are usually don 2-3 times a year around holidays. TBone schedules them, but there’s usually on in feb and one in november

[GrandpaMo]

Marathons are usually don 2-3 times a year around holidays. TBone schedules them, but there’s usually on in feb and one in november

ok thanks ill just mod it in micro then probably

[Jingle]

You could also run it in the discord if you had enough people around, although people don’t often actually use the discord play games role.

[Invisibility]

Lightbearer protects from plunging into darkness, and also prevents a death from plunging into darkness.

does the first part of the ability refer to the roleblock?

[TemporalLich]

does the first part of the ability refer to the roleblock?

if a Lightbearer protects you from being plunged into darkness, you don't get roleblocked or poisoned.

[Jingle]

To clarify, if lightbringer and plunge both target X on N1, X is neither roleblocked nor set to die N2. If Lightbringer targets x N2 after plunge targets X N1, X is roleblocked N1 but will not die N2. Correct?

This was my initial understanding, but I think it is a more clear way to make it explicit if other people were confused.

[TemporalLich]

To clarify, if lightbringer and plunge both target X on N1, X is neither roleblocked nor set to die N2. If Lightbringer targets x N2 after plunge targets X N1, X is roleblocked N1 but will not die N2. Correct?

This was my initial understanding, but I think it is a more clear way to make it explicit if other people were confused.

That is indeed how the lightbearer works

[Jingle]

I never did weigh in on that setup, but my thoughts are that it's a bit townsided as is. My suggestion would be to split ordinator and lightbringer so that one blocked a kill attempt made the same day and one blocked a kill attempt made the next day. Particularly because the case where exist seems to be the worst offender and also because my issue with the setup is that it seems too likely that a kill would be stopped.

I don't think it's unplayably townsided as is though.

[TemporalLich]

I never did weigh in on that setup, but my thoughts are that it's a bit townsided as is. My suggestion would be to split ordinator and lightbringer so that one blocked a kill attempt made the same day and one blocked a kill attempt made the next day. Particularly because the case where exist seems to be the worst offender and also because my issue with the setup is that it seems too likely that a kill would be stopped.

I don't think it's unplayably townsided as is though.

Ordinator (which is a placeholder name) is intended to be the Jailkeeper equivalent for Dark Creatures.

for a nerf, I'd probably make the lightbearer and ordinator only protect from plunging into darkness, instead of also clearing the "poisoned" lingering effect. (i.e. a lightbearer won't prevent a N2 death if they target a player on N2)

[Jingle]

I think there is an interesting split in design in having one role be able to save on same night targeting and one only on night after targeting, is my point. I understood the original intent. I agree that your change would also have the desired effect, though.