[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[TemporalLich]

as of now here's what I'd do with the Nobility and the Dark Angel setup:

To avoid weird endgames, make the Dark Angel autowin if it gets to a LYLO scenario with them in it.

Disable both kinds of nobility altogether (both elections and votes) if a LYLO scenario ever happens. Basically with this and the above change, LYLOs are played out like normal Mafia.

Make it clearer hidden nobility is for non-Mafia (unless allowing Mafia to hidden noble themselves is more fun).

[TemporalLich]

Nobility and The Dark Angel v1.4

12 players

1 Dark Angel

2 Mafia Goons

9 Vanilla Townies

In addition to voting for lynches, the Town may also vote to elect a noble for the next day. Noble election is by plurality vote and is decided when the lynch is decided.

An elected noble is announced to have an extra lynch vote, and counts as two people for lynch majority. If the Dark Angel is ever an elected noble, the game instantly ends in a Town win, with the Mafia and Dark Angel losing.

A Noble election vote can either use bold e.g.

ELECT: TemporalLich

or or heal tags e.g. HEAL: TemporalLich

You can't vote to lynch and elect the same player. Voting No Noble is allowed.

There are no Nobles, Hidden Nobles, Noble elections, or Hidden Noble appointments during LYLO.

In addition to the factional nightkill, the Mafia may attempt to appoint a hidden noble. The mafia may multitask.

A hidden noble has an extra lynch vote. They count as one person for lynch majority. A hidden noble knows they are a hidden noble, but hidden nobility is not public.

The Mafia may not kill the noble that has been elected the previous day.

If the Mafia appoints the Dark Angel as a hidden noble, the Dark Angel exits the game in a loss and the Mafia gets a 1-shot daykill to be used in the Mafia PT.

The Dark Angel instantly loses if they become a noble. The Dark Angel wins if the game ends before this happens or the Dark Angel dies.

The Dark Angel exits the game in a win if the game hits what would be LYLO without the Dark Angel (2 townies and 1 mafioso, or 3 townies and 2 mafiosi).

Mafia win when they outnumber Town or equal Town.

Town win when the Mafia are dead or the Dark Angel becomes an elected noble.

Mafia may privately communicate at any time.

Dark Angel wins and exits the game in 2:1:1 and 3:2:1, nobility is disabled altogether in LYLO.

This version still allows Mafiosi to be hidden nobles, because otherwise hidden nobility would allow for ICs (which is kinda unfun tbh).

[popsofctown]

I programmed this thing up.
The first time I messed it up by not calculating how the mafia is twice as good at finding the Dark Angel as the town was, that version had to best 3rd part winrate ever. Alas it cannot be so.
The winrates are not that bad though. Assuming I got everything right this last time which might be a shaky assumption, the EVs I got are:

Mafia: 56.8% Town 43.2% Angel 41.8%.
Usual third party winrates are way more abysmal than that.

These assume compulsive lynching (once I account for the mafia's better Angel hunting tweaks seem to show compulsive lynching is optimal) and no preference for lynching players who are confirmed non-angel versus possible angels.
43% winrate is where sadistic people like me want to see the town winrate but TL might want to prop that up somehow. It's a "bad" 43% because the doublevoting should be antitown on balance and the EV can't account for it. Hidden nobling someone who has terrible reads is way of mislynching town without losing any towncred. I would run this anyway. Just roll vt onto 9 players with awesome perfect reads and be awesome and perfect. EZ.

[TemporalLich]

hmm, Angel winrate is pretty low but still in the acceptable range...

how bad would it be if I made Nobility and The Dark Angel a 13p (10:2:1) setup with compulsive lynching and electing? (since 43% town is in acceptable range but the doublevoter power makes this a bit more scumsided than EV can tell you...)

[popsofctown]

If I increment the VTs, I get Mafia: 54.54% Town: 45.46% and Angel 42.5%

That's probably preferable, I expected that to tank the Angel winrate for the angel to need to survive longer, but it must provide a needle in a haystack benefit

or it's all bugged

[popsofctown]

I forgot to add a chance that the town lynches someone the mafia knows can't be an angel, but the town think is possibly an angel.
That should nudge the 3rd party EV up a little bit actually.

[popsofctown]

That made it M: 54.1%, T: 45.87%, A: 42.95%. Very marginal change (That's still with the 10th townie in).

[TemporalLich]

Nobility and The Dark Angel v1.6

13 players

1 Dark Angel

2 Mafia Goons

10 Vanilla Townies

In addition to voting for lynches, the Town may also vote to elect a noble for the next day. Noble election is by plurality vote and is decided when the lynch is decided.

An elected noble is announced to have an extra lynch vote, and counts as two people for lynch majority. If the Dark Angel is ever an elected noble, the game instantly ends in a Town win, with the Mafia and Dark Angel losing.

A Noble election vote can either use bold e.g.

ELECT: TemporalLich

or or heal tags e.g. HEAL: TemporalLich

You can't vote to lynch and elect the same player. Voting No Noble is allowed.

There are no Nobles, Hidden Nobles, Noble elections, or Hidden Noble appointments during LYLO. LYLO happens if the game reaches 2:1 or 3:2 and lasts for the rest of the game.

In addition to the factional nightkill, the Mafia may attempt to appoint a hidden noble. This cannot be the same target as the nightkill. The mafia may multitask.

A hidden noble has an extra lynch vote. They count as one person for lynch majority. A hidden noble knows they are a hidden noble, but hidden nobility is not public.

The Mafia may not kill the noble that has been elected the previous day.

If the Mafia appoints the Dark Angel as a hidden noble, the Dark Angel exits the game in a loss and the Mafia gets a 1-shot daykill to be used in the Mafia PT.

The Dark Angel instantly loses if they become a noble. The Dark Angel wins if the game ends before this happens or the Dark Angel dies.

The Dark Angel exits the game in a win if the game hits what would be LYLO without the Dark Angel (2 townies and 1 mafioso, or 3 townies and 2 mafiosi).

Mafia win when they outnumber Town or equal Town. The Mafia are endgamed if the Dark Angel becomes an elected noble.

Town win when the Mafia are dead or the Dark Angel becomes an elected noble.

Mafia may privately communicate at any time.

Added a tenth VT (making this setup start at odds, thus removing the need for compulsive lynching and nobling). This is probably the best balanced this setup can get, and the strictly better EVs make adding a tenth VT a no-brainer.

[PMysterious]

Jungle Republic- Stronger

Based on: Jungle Republic (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... e_Republic)

EXTRA Additions
The Mafia gets a 1-shot Night kill they can use, but they only get 1, so they need to make it count.
The town gets a Cop to detect Mafia to compensate for the power the Mafia now has.
A Lone Wolf is added to the Werewolf team. The werewolves are not told who the lone wolf is.

Town (10)
1 Seer (Can only detect Werewolves)
1 Cop (Can only detect Mafia)
8 Vanilla Townies

Mafia (2)
1 Mafia Vanilla Cop (Can detect power roles)
1 Mafia

Werewolf (2)
2 Werewolves

Third Party (1)
Lone Wolf (Part of the Werewolf team, but only wins if he is the last player left standing.)

This is probably a little ridiculous, but I did like the original Jungle Republic, so I thought I'd make some changes to make it more interesting.

[popsofctown]

It's impossible for the Lone Wolf since either Lone Wolf + Wolf claims a wolf victory and Lone Wolf loss immediately, or Lone Wolf + townie can't cause further player deaths, or Lone Wolf + Mafia can't cause further player deaths.
Oh, I guess the 1-shot kill could be used to crosskill exactly on the last night of the game, but that's not enough EV.

The mafia balance in original Jungle Republic is probably close to about right. The idea that you could gift them a single one-shot nightkill and a vanilla cop and punish them with removing one of their players AND adding two townies AND adding a cop and have something balanced after you're done is absurd, and could easily be sanity checked by the Nightless Expectation rule.

What is the goal with this? The contrast between the mafia having no nightkill and the werewolves having one is the centerpiece of the setup, so redesigning it with that element softened seems hard to square with: "I did like the original Jungle Republic".

[Jingle]

SK inside a scumteam is a thing that works, pops, although I'm not sure how much it really adds to the setup. I'd wager it ends up being significantly more townsided due to the lack of internal scum cohesion.

[BBmolla]

Hope Plus One

9 player:

3 Mafia Goons

1 Town Cop
2 Macho Doctors
7 Vanilla Townies

• Daystart
  
• If both Doctors target the same player, the protections will fail.
  
• If one Doctor dies, the cop becomes Macho.
  
• Mafia have a Factional 1-shot Vanillaise.

Hey this setup is townsided, I think this should fix all the situations that have been issues of late? Can give Mafia a Tracker as well if scum is still too underpowered.


Also just for fun

Hope Plus One Reloaded

9 player:

3 Mafia Trackers

1 Town Cop
2 Macho Doctors
7 Visitors

• Daystart
  
• If both Doctors target the same player, the protections will fail.
  
• If one Doctor dies, the cop becomes Macho.
  
• Mafia have a Factional 1-shot Vanillaise.

[Blatant Scum]

This is semi-open.

I am really bad in naming things, if you have a name suggestion, I am all ears

8 player:

3 Regretful Disarmingly Bulletproof Mafia Goons

// disarmingly bulletproof = if attacked, doesn't die and attacker permanently loses all killing abilities

3 Vanilla Townies

Plus either:
a)

2 Town Lovers

b)

Vanilla Townie
1-shot Weak Visitor

c)

Vanilla Townie
Hated Disarming Bulletproof Townie

• Daystart
  
• Scum doesn't know each other
  
• Each scum can make killing action every night
  a) if he targets town, both die
  b) if he targets scum or bulletproof townie, attacker loses his active ability and is noticed about it
  c) if more than one scum targets one target, all but one are roleblocked (random, roleblocked scums will not die nor lose their ability)
  d) if all living scum should die because of their night action, random scum is roleblocked
  
• Town must lynch. In ties who had their final vote cast first gets lynched.
  
• Town lovers have private day and night chat. If one of them is lynched, they both die. If Lover or Attacked Lover is attacked by scum, he becomes Attacked Lover (he isn't aware of it, attacking scum will be noticed and doesn't die nor loses his ability) and doesn't die.
  
• If scum attacks Lover while other Lover is already an Attacked Lover, both Lovers and attacking scum die. If both Lovers haven't been attacked before and are attacked at the same night, both Lovers die and one random scum which attacked them dies.
  
• In case of 1v1 all dead players decide who gets lynched.

[Blatant Scum]

I knew I would forget something.
Wincon:
town: lynch all scum.
Scum: >50% of living players are scum.

[BBmolla]

I mean it’s not really Mafia. There’s no informed minority.

[BBmolla]

Keyword being informed

[Blatant Scum]

It's possible to rename some roles. SKs who win together?

[Micc]

Without an informed minority, it’s not a game of Mafia. Adjusting role names isn’t going to change that. An informed minority is necessary so that the town can search for partner connections. Without it a fundamental part of the game is lost.

[popsofctown]

That doesn't mean it's not a social deduction game it's just not a mafia game.

[Jingle]

That's also not to say it's not a valid game. There are 'mafia' games we play that are not really mafia, such as Dethy or low playercount AitP.

Scum should p much never shoot unless prs out, in which case one should qh and claim to be shooting that night. Thus, this is functionally 5v3 nightless. None of the setups seem like they'd have enough power to compensate for that, especially when you take into account that the game is functionally randomlynching. You could probably turn it into a decent enough large, but even still it'd be better run as a closed with little to no replay value.

[Jingle]

Monty Hall Mafia

3 Goon
6 VT

Plurality, standard nightkills.

At the halfway point of the dayphase, if there are fewer than three wagons, the lynch occurs immediately. Otherwise a random player who is being voted. If no player who is being voted can be confirmed to be town, Mafia immediately loses.

I haven't looked at balance much as this is a rough draft, but does anyone see any immediate concerns?

Edited to remove leashing as necessary.

[Blatant Scum]

Mafia should attack revealed townie every night, making the reveal not very powerful.
After one mislynch, if town fails to build highiest wagon on mafia before midday, they lose.

[popsofctown]

I think this setup's fun-ness could be improved by more closely matching the mathematically special part of Monty Hall and skipping the part where the metaphor of how Monty Hall is usually explained suggests doing a certain thing.

The metaphor is usually presented as "Alice picks door 3, hopeful it has a million dollars instead of a goat, but the gameshow host interrupts her to provide her some information." The metaphor is actually mathematically identical, though, if instead it is "Alice picks door 3 and promises never to pick that door for the rest of the game", or "Alice says door 3 is the ugliest door" or much more to the point, "Alice selects door 3 the be the only member of 'the set of doors that are not eligible to participate in the procedure where Monty identifies a door with a goat and opens it'".

The player with the most votes, pops ofc town who of course has zero votes, and the moderator Jingle are all three identical in that they will not be part of the procedure where a slot is selected to be revealed to be town. Requiring "the wagon with the most votes" to exist and be part of the precondition for the IC effect to trigger mimics Alice's exciting effort to lunge for a million dollars off the bat in the colloquial explanation of Monty Hall without actually mimicking the mathematical properties of Monty Hall. Those properties are already mimicked by having town select the group of two players eligible for ICing (or 3 to 4 if they're badz), everyone who's not eligible for ICing is equally ineligible.

Role Call I demonstrated getting people to agree on leashed stuff can be painful, slow, and unfun, so wherever you can achieve your setup goals with less leashed stuff surely you want that. This setup should be strictly better if it is just changed to : "a random player who is being voted is revealed to be town if there are two or more wagons".

[Jingle]

Mafia should attack revealed townie every night, making the reveal not very powerful.
After one mislynch, if town fails to build highiest wagon on mafia before midday, they lose.

I think you misunderstand the conceit of the setup. As long as there are 3 options, option 2 or 3 is revealed town halfway through the day. 3 options could be 7 votes for A, 1 vote for b, 1 vote for c.

The immediate lynch only triggers if there aren’t three options, which any individual group of three players can guarantee. Otherwise you continue the day with a conftown and theoretically it’s mathematically optimal to not lynch the person who had been the highest wagon (thus Monty hall).

I can dig the pops change though.

[RadiantCowbells]

God I hate conceited setups