[SETUP] Paired Mafia.

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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[SETUP] Paired Mafia.

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:52 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

8 players. 2 groups of 4.

Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
VT
VT

Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia


Hidden 3p
Hidden 3p




Group 1:
Hidden Town (Negative Utility)
Hidden Town (Positive Utility)
VT

Hidden Mafia

Hidden 3p

Group 2:
Hidden Town (Negative Utility)
Hidden Town (Positive Utility)
VT

Hidden Mafia

Hidden 3p



Possible Roles:


Town:


Welcome [player X], you are a
Vanilla Townie
aligned with
town
.

You have no special abilities.

You have 2 HP.
Welcome [player X], you are a
Watcher
aligned with
town
. You are Positive Utility.

During the night you may investigate someone to learn who, if anybody, targeted that player that night (but not what actions were performed on that player).

Possible Results are:
Players [X, Y, Z ect.] targeted this player or no one targeted OR N/A

You have 3HP.
Welcome [player X], you are a
Sherif
aligned with
town
. You are Positive Utility.

During the night you may investigate someone to learn what alignment they are.

Possible Results are:
Player is Role X OR N/A

You have 3HP.
Welcome [Player X], you are
Doctor
Aligned with
Town
. You are Positive Utility.

During the night you may protect someone from Night Kill.
Welcome [Player X], you are
5 HP Townie
Aligned with
Town
. You are Positive Utility.

You have 5 HP instead of 3
Welcome [Player X], you are a
Town Enabler
Aligned with
Town
. You are Negative Utility.

When you die a random TPR will lose their ability to do a Night action.

You have 3HP.
Welcome [Player X], you are a
Millar [Survivor OR Jester OR Cultist OR Malicious Savior]
Aligned with
Town
. You are Negative Utility.

Upon investigation, you will show up as a 3p role not in the game.

You have 3HP.
Welcome [Player X], you are
1 HP Townie
Aligned with
Town
. You are Negative Utility.

You have 1 HP instead of 3.
Welcome [Player X], you are an
Actor
Aligned with
Town
. You are Negative Utility.

You may only make the Hammer Vote or be ModKilled.

You have 3HP.

Mafia:
Welcome [player X], you are a
Agent
aligned with
Mafia
.

During the night you may investigate someone to learn what who visited this player and who that player visited that night and may execute the Night Kill.

Possible results are:
Player visited [Player Y] and was visited by [Player(s) A, B, C].
Welcome [player X], you are a
Detector
aligned with
Mafia
.

During the night you may investigate someone to learn what exact Role that player is and may execute the Night Kill.

Possible results are:
Player is [X] Role.
Welcome [player X], you are a
Consort
aligned with
Mafia
.

During the night you may Roleblock a player that night and may execute the Night Kill.
Welcome [player X], you are a
Sacrificer
aligned with
Mafia
.

If you are lynched, you may pick a player that night to have their Night Results given to your remaining Mafia partner and may execute the Night Kill.

3p:

Welcome [player X], you are a
Jester
and are
3p
.

You win when you are lynched.
Welcome [player X], you are a
Survivor
and are
3p
.

You win when you survive the other 3p.
Welcome [player X], you are a
Cultist
and are
3p
.

During the night, you may attempt to recruit a player to join your cult. If you bring a players HP to 0 and recruit someone, you win. Recruiting takes up 1 HP.
Welcome [player X], you are a
Malicious Savior
and are
3p
.

During the night, you may attempt to restore a player's HP. If you successfully restore a player's HP and live to see Mafia win, you win.

Possible results:
You have successfully restored a player's HP OR You have not successfully restored a player's HP.

you will be told who Mafia is when the game starts.
Win cons:
Town:
Lynch all mafia with at least 1 Town player remaining.
Mafia:
Gain a majority of the original members of any one group.
Jester:
Get Yourself Lynched
Survivor:
Out survive the other 3p.
Cultist:
Gain a majority in any of the original members of any one group.
Malicious Saviour:
Add a point to someone's HP who has lost HP and live to see Mafia win the game.

Order of Operations (OoO):
Sherif
Detector
Agent
Night Kill
Lookout
Cultist
Doctor
Malicious Savior
Consort

Special mechanics:
Each day a Group is picked (odd and even days) to vote someone off from. All parties can vote for someone from that group. Once one group has eliminated the mafia OR 3p from that group The groups join into one group. Winning survivor is taken out of the game if they achieve their win con, but that may or may not end the game. Each player gets 3 HP. Getting lynched counts as 3 points taken away and getting NKed counts as 2 point taken away. Players are told if they have a point(s) taken away.
Mafia must NK someone from the previous group to Lynch from.
Game ends when Town or Mafia Win. Cultist can try to recruit someone which takes 1 point.
If Cultist depletes the target of HP then that person becomes part of the cult.
Once Cult fulfills their win con then both they and the person they have recruited are taken out of the game. This may or may not end the game.

Lookout is paired with Enabler. Sheriff is paired with Millar. Doctor is paired with 1HP Townie. 5HP Townie is paired with Actor. Millar will be checked as a 3P that is not in the game. Agent is paired with Consort and Detector is paired with Sacrificer. Survivor is paired with Cultist and Jester is paired with Malicious Savior.

Pairs are randed.

I realize this is a highly unconventional game and is prolly bastard, but I'd like to hear people's thoughts on it.
Last edited by LicketyQuickety on Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:15 pm

Post by BBmolla »

There is no uninformed majority.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:30 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 1, BBmolla wrote:There is no uninformed majority.
Right, but there is 3p who play a big part in how the votes go. I felt I might have to rework the entire point system if I added a VT to each group since it makes it way too hard for Mafia to get enough NKs and there is a guaranteed 3p that has a special way of working with the points. Anyways, if I added a VT to each group, what would you have to say about the game then?
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:12 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

OP Edited. Added condition to Malicious Savior and added VT to each group to keep game from being auto solvable.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:36 pm

Post by BBmolla »

Massclaim day 1 creates a clear so that's probably ideal way to play.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:37 pm

Post by BBmolla »

creates two clears*

If you claim "pos town" and "neg town" you can also do so while hiding a possible doc
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:38 pm

Post by BBmolla »

I guess opt strat is for scum/3p to cc vt and pos town in which case neg town becomes confirmed town
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:57 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 5, BBmolla wrote:creates two clears*

If you claim "pos town" and "neg town" you can also do so while hiding a possible doc
In post 6, BBmolla wrote:I guess opt strat is for scum/3p to cc vt and pos town in which case neg town becomes confirmed town
Yeah, I'm aware of the clears. Scum is forced to claim VT and then its up to Scum hunting and NA.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:01 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

Look for striked out sentences. Made 2 more changes.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:11 pm

Post by BBmolla »

I'm really bad with setups that need math for balance or have a bunch of swing so I'm not one to ask.

I can try to really brainstorm some stuff tomorrow about it. But I do think playing a game that is 2:1:1:6 would be kind of daunting as town to deal with, that's just my two cents.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:32 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 9, BBmolla wrote:I'm really bad with setups that need math for balance or have a bunch of swing so I'm not one to ask.

I can try to really brainstorm some stuff tomorrow about it. But I do think playing a game that is 2:1:1:6 would be kind of daunting as town to deal with, that's just my two cents.
I see your point. You think its Scum sided because its 2:1:1:6.. That's what the point system is for. I know this is going to do me no credit and will prolly end up making me look like and arrogant ass, but I'm not using math either, I'm eyeballing it. Thing is though, I'm pretty good at eyeballing shit. As per example, I never took calculus in High School but somehow managed to score better than 93% of my peers for trig or calculus or science and reasoning or whatever the hell that section is called on the ACT because I'm good at eyeballing stuff.

That said, I would in fact appreciate it if people could tell me how far off the mark I am with EV talk.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:35 pm

Post by BBmolla »

Yes, the balance is a bit different in the fact that town almost have 1-shot BP vests.

But like I said I have no idea how that affects things.

I think with the presence of a maybe jester/cult the setup can not be balanced by mafiascum standards. But that isn't particularly important.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:44 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 11, BBmolla wrote:Yes, the balance is a bit different in the fact that town almost have 1-shot BP vests.

But like I said I have no idea how that affects things.

I think with the presence of a maybe jester/cult the setup can not be balanced by mafiascum standards. But that isn't particularly important.
Was going to ask why presents of jester/cult in this setup can not be balanced by any mafia standards, but then I saw that you said mafiascum standards. Then you say that isn't particularly important and I am wondering why you said that.

Perhaps you think mafiascum operates by a different standard than other mafia sites? In what ways does setup analysis operate differently here than elsewhere?
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:54 pm

Post by BBmolla »

What I mean by that is it's highly unlikely a setup with a variable jester/cult would enter the open queue rounds if that makes sense.

I guess it depends on your intent. But as an example, if my 3p are survivor/jester I think I'm significantly more likely to win than if the scum are malicious savior(aka a mafia traitor)/cult.

I do have a question about the cult, does being culted change your alignment? Or is it more like Aids Giver from Anything Goes? (Alignment unchanged but told they were given "Aids." Wins in addition to whoever else wins if everyone has Aids.)
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:58 pm

Post by BBmolla »

In post 12, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 11, BBmolla wrote:Yes, the balance is a bit different in the fact that town almost have 1-shot BP vests.

But like I said I have no idea how that affects things.

I think with the presence of a maybe jester/cult the setup can not be balanced by mafiascum standards. But that isn't particularly important.
Was going to ask why presents of jester/cult in this setup can not be balanced by any mafia standards, but then I saw that you said mafiascum standards. Then you say that isn't particularly important and I am wondering why you said that.

Perhaps you think mafiascum operates by a different standard than other mafia sites? In what ways does setup analysis operate differently here than elsewhere?
Mafiascum operates under creating the most balanced setups as possible. Jester/Cult reward play that is counter-intuitive to mafia.

Jester because his role creates an environment that discourages lynching scummy people, which is literally the point of the game.
Cult because alignment changes create unfun situations many of the time. Imagine you're town and you found all of the cult members and killed them all, but then get culted and lose? Wouldn't you be upset for putting so much work in only to lose due to an uncontrollable alignment change?

People put a lot of effort into their games, they go on for months and months. The more investment you get in the game, the more frustrated one will feel if they felt like the odds were unfairly against them.

Other sites don't care about this as much.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:00 am

Post by BBmolla »

SC2mafia, for example, tends to have games extremely focused on nightplay. As more players from SC2 and ToS come over to MS you've kind of seen a shift in some of the queues to these more night action heavy games with more swing.

The Open Queue is run by Llamafluff, who is kind of in charge of what setups get played in it, and Llamafluff especially is a person who tries to enforce a focus on open setups with dayplay and balance.

That's kind of a rundown of site meta atm.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:01 am

Post by BBmolla »

Another example to support this is we literally play mountainous games here and there, something I never see at any other site because it's "boring."
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:17 am

Post by BBmolla »

With that being said, I come from EpicMafia, a site where d1 mylo was common and typically reliant on choosing between counter claims and with some ranked setups with a jester. This makes complete sense for chat mafia.

In addition, you'll notice a lot of the setups run in Marathon tend to be silly: Grand Idea was run multiple times and it's probably the most unbalanced setup in existence.

My point is, if this was designed to be run as a quick game with like 48 hour deadlines or something, it might be fine. I have a hard time judging because I wouldn't play in a setup that I feel would screw me over from the start unless it was intentionally horrendously balanced like Grand Idea.

I do want to point out that you'll see a lot of Mafiascum setups designed specifically around Jester and Cult that get run time to time, but they're designed with those roles in mind and balanced specifically for them. With the jester and cult only being 2 of 4 possible 3p roles, I don't feel like that's the case here.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:19 am

Post by BBmolla »

Imagine if you were playing a setup and it said "Town gets two of the following roles: Cop, Voteless Townie, Double-Voter, Baker(hands out bread every night, when he dies anyone without bread dies)"

Wouldn't you feel ripped off if you played in the voteless townie/baker setup?
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:22 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 13, BBmolla wrote:What I mean by that is it's highly unlikely a setup with a variable jester/cult would enter the open queue rounds if that makes sense.
This game is being reviewed off site as well. Thought I would see what people thought of it here. So far it looks like you have been the only person to look at it and have deemed it to be unbalanced, but I am not sure if you are clear enough on your reasons other than saying that mafiascum doesn't do setups like this here.
I guess it depends on your intent. But as an example, if my 3p are survivor/jester I think I'm significantly more likely to win than if the scum are malicious savior(aka a mafia traitor)/cult.
Uh-huh.. why is that? Is it important for all factions to have an equal shot at winning? What are the exceptions?
I do have a question about the cult, does being culted change your alignment? Or is it more like Aids Giver from Anything Goes? (Alignment unchanged but told they were given "Aids." Wins in addition to whoever else wins if everyone has Aids.)
No, its not. What gave you the idea that it was similar? I gave the whole setup in the OP, not sure why you thought it was like aids at all. The way cult works in this game is that once a player is recruited they die and their win con remains the same and the Cultist is then taken out of the game once they have fulfilled their win con. The difference between this aids concept (which I find offensive) and mine is that the only NA that effect a persons recruitment is the Cultist targeting that player and bringing their HP down to 0. So if the Watcher were to target the same player the same night as the Cultist, the watcher would not at all affect the targeted players HP while the Cultist's recruitment would lower the HP of that player by 1.

P-Edit X2: right right, just wanted to see what people had to say about this game here. If I were to run it here (which I probably will not knowing the sites meta for setups is a bit rigid) I would run it as a bastard game in an appropriate queue. But I'm not sure why my setup isn't balanced. Could you explain that?

What is a mountainous game? Is that like, a game where a ton of people play in it, cuz I know of another site that does that too.

P-Edit:
I do want to point out that you'll see a lot of Mafiascum setups designed specifically around Jester and Cult that get run time to time, but they're designed with those roles in mind and balanced specifically for them. With the jester and cult only being 2 of 4 possible 3p roles, I don't feel like that's the case here.
Why is that?

P-Edit: Not sure what you're getting at.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:35 am

Post by BBmolla »

In post 19, LicketyQuickety wrote:This game is being reviewed off site as well. Thought I would see what people thought of it here. So far it looks like you have been the only person to look at it and have deemed it to be unbalanced, but I am not sure if you are clear enough on your reasons other than saying that mafiascum doesn't do setups like this here.
My main reason is that the variance in the 3ps can create such vast difference in setup that one could play the same and lose or win depending on which 3p are in play.
In post 19, LicketyQuickety wrote:Uh-huh.. why is that? Is it important for all factions to have an equal shot at winning? What are the exceptions?
No, but it is a general expectation that one does not get screwed via which setup was randomed. For example, a big issue with the old newbie setup 2of4 was how significantly easier some setups were for town than others. Doc/Jailkeeper's winrate was far significant to say that of solo Doc. Losing from luck in general is a frustrating thing when you have as much investment in a game as people put in here.
In post 19, LicketyQuickety wrote:No, its not. What gave you the idea that it was similar? I gave the whole setup in the OP, not sure why you thought it was like aids at all. The way cult works in this game is that once a player is recruited they die and their win con remains the same and the Cultist is then taken out of the game once they have fulfilled their win con. The difference between this aids concept (which I find offensive) and mine is that the only NA that effect a persons recruitment is the Cultist targeting that player and bringing their HP down to 0. So if the Watcher were to target the same player the same night as the Cultist, the watcher would not at all affect the targeted players HP while the Cultist's recruitment would lower the HP of that player by 1.
Just so I have it correct, basically the Cultist has a night kill that deals 1 damage and wins if he kills a player?

(the aids concept to describe the mechanic isn't mine, you can go tell UT or Quadz that you're offended)
In post 19, LicketyQuickety wrote:What is a mountainous game? Is that like, a game where a ton of people play in it, cuz I know of another site that does that too.
Where there are no power roles.

In post 19, LicketyQuickety wrote:Why is that?

P-Edit: Not sure what you're getting at.
This setup is specifically designed with the jester role in mind. It has a way of dealing with the jester and the jester is the focal point of the setup.

With yours, town has no adequate way to dispose of a jester and with the variant setups. In general with jesters players get annoyed post game when they don't expect it or their scum reading is hampered because they do expect it. A jester in general has a huge negative impact on a game.

Your cultist isn't really a true cult, he's like a mini sk, so I don't have as much trouble with him anymore.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:37 am

Post by BBmolla »

Does Jester end the game? If not, what is the reasoning to not just ask them to claim day 1 and lynch them?
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:43 am

Post by BBmolla »

Also keep in mind I'm not the authority of open setups so I can be wrong and you can disagree.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:34 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 20, BBmolla wrote:
In post 19, LicketyQuickety wrote:This game is being reviewed off site as well. Thought I would see what people thought of it here. So far it looks like you have been the only person to look at it and have deemed it to be unbalanced, but I am not sure if you are clear enough on your reasons other than saying that mafiascum doesn't do setups like this here.
My main reason is that the variance in the 3ps can create such vast difference in setup that one could play the same and lose or win depending on which 3p are in play.
Assuming people would play the same given the role they have disregarding the other roles in the game, you would be correct. And I agree that 3p have a huge influence over how people should play - that's actually the point of this setup.
In post 19, LicketyQuickety wrote:Uh-huh.. why is that? Is it important for all factions to have an equal shot at winning? What are the exceptions?
No, but it is a general expectation that one does not get screwed via which setup was randomed. For example, a big issue with the old newbie setup 2of4 was how significantly easier some setups were for town than others. Doc/Jailkeeper's winrate was far significant to say that of solo Doc. Losing from luck in general is a frustrating thing when you have as much investment in a game as people put in here.
IMO, the paired 3p counterbalance each other in a way that allows a dynamic shift in play for all roles in the game.. Jester is not going to want to get NK, Survivor is not going to want to get lynched. Cultist is going to want to target someone who gets targeted at night. Malicious Savior is going to want to keep mafia from getting lynched. Survivor with Cultist is going to mean Cultist will prolly want to target Survivor and Survivor is going to want to play Townie. Jester with Malicious Savior is going to mean Malicious Savior is going to want to target Town and Jester is going to want to act Sus. What this means is that the meta of the game is going to either be Townie or Scummy depending on 3p.
In post 19, LicketyQuickety wrote:No, its not. What gave you the idea that it was similar? I gave the whole setup in the OP, not sure why you thought it was like aids at all. The way cult works in this game is that once a player is recruited they die and their win con remains the same and the Cultist is then taken out of the game once they have fulfilled their win con. The difference between this aids concept (which I find offensive) and mine is that the only NA that effect a persons recruitment is the Cultist targeting that player and bringing their HP down to 0. So if the Watcher were to target the same player the same night as the Cultist, the watcher would not at all affect the targeted players HP while the Cultist's recruitment would lower the HP of that player by 1.
Just so I have it correct, basically the Cultist has a night kill that deals 1 damage and wins if he kills a player?

(the aids concept to describe the mechanic isn't mine, you can go tell UT or Quadz that you're offended)
Yes, that is how Cultist works.

I'm not going to tell UT or Quadz that I'm offended. No need in throwing mud around where its not my place.
In post 19, LicketyQuickety wrote:What is a mountainous game? Is that like, a game where a ton of people play in it, cuz I know of another site that does that too.
Where there are no power roles.
Oh, yeah, that makes more sense.
In post 19, LicketyQuickety wrote:Why is that?

P-Edit: Not sure what you're getting at.
This setup is specifically designed with the jester role in mind. It has a way of dealing with the jester and the jester is the focal point of the setup.

With yours, town has no adequate way to dispose of a jester and with the variant setups. In general with jesters players get annoyed post game when they don't expect it or their scum reading is hampered because they do expect it. A jester in general has a huge negative impact on a game.

Your cultist isn't really a true cult, he's like a mini sk, so I don't have as much trouble with him anymore.
This is a decent point. I can only say that Malicious saviour will want to keep Jestere alive. There is a reason for this: If Jester is killed the Groups are conjoined. If the Groups are conjoined, then it makes it much more difficult for Malicious Saviour to fulfill their win con for a reason: There is no longer any reason for Mafia to NK someone from Group 1 (If there are 2 groups, then Mafia get to LyLo sooner granted a Townie was lynched day 1). This makes it more difficult for Malicious Savior to target the right person to heal. This is also why when I added VT that they only have 2 HP - so that if VT are targeted for NK then they die right away and this makes it more difficult for Malicious Savior to heal someone at night. So Malicious Savior has the option of targeting Positive Utility and Negative Utility (1HP Townie can be healed if they are not targeted for NK). Jesture is prolly not looking to get targeted for NK so Malicious Savior will prolly know by their play that they shouldn't target them for heal. I think Jester is the wrong role for this game, I agree.
I was anything worse than you! Anything worse than you was I!

You was doided teh aposit_tisopa het dedoid saw em.
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