[SETUP] Triad of Love and Hate.

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[SETUP] Triad of Love and Hate.

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:43 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

11 players

Town (7):
2x Lovers
6VT

Mafia (2):
2 Goons

3p (1):
1 Lover Killer

  1. Lovers know who each other are and share Night Chat.
  2. Goons have day chat
  3. Lover Killer has the ability to spy on a person at night and learn if they are Lover or not
Win cons
Town: Eliminate Mafia and Lover Killer
Mafia: Gain majority in game or nothing can prevent this and kill Lover Killer
Lover Killer: Get Lovers Killed and see Mafia win.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:46 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

Added a VT
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:22 am

Post by Cass »

I don't really get the Lover Killer. Couldn't she just play really badly, get herself lynched Day 1 and bank on the odds of the lovers dying at some point? And still win the game? Or must she first get the lovers killed and then die? It looks like the role must get themselves killed to win as well, is that intentional?
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:37 am

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 2, Cass wrote:I don't really get the Lover Killer. Couldn't she just play really badly, get herself lynched Day 1 and bank on the odds of the lovers dying at some point? And still win the game? Or must she first get the lovers killed and then die? It looks like the role must get themselves killed to win as well, is that intentional?
First they have to find out who the lovers even are. If they just end up lynching themselves they are not playing to their win condition. Its kinda like a Lyncher in that they need their target dead (that would probably be a better role for this game I guess).

The idea I was trying to get across is that the Lyncher has to be crafty in pushing their lynch while not getting themselves killed. If they just get themselves lynched day 1 then they have made zero progress on their win con. The tricky part is going to be making up a believable case against a Town member(s) who may or may not act Townie, which is why they can continue to investigate for the other lover to see if that player is easier to lynch or not.

This game is working on some recent concepts that I have been thinking about. I wanted a system where two Town players are working in unison because of a conversation I had with Mith. I also wanted to add a role that that the setup was built around because of what BBMolla said about Jester being a role where the whole setup should be built around that role in an Open game. I also wanted to not make it overly complex because I have a problem with making games that are too complex without enough backing behind them in what I know about balance.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:44 am

Post by callforjudgement »

The Lovers are effectively just a single player slot in this setup; as such, town have no real benefit/detriment to them dying early, late, or not at all. As such, they should probably claim to act as an Innocent Child (pretty much forcing the scum to kill them eventually, as scum can't get majority with the Lovers and the Lover Killer alive). This will force scum to start third-party hunting, meaning that they can't take out townies at night like they'd normally want to. The end result probably isn't townsided because town have so little power, but it helps bring town up to balance (the setup is scumsided if town aren't trying something like this, although I'm unsure which scum offhand).

The Lover Killer doesn't really work in the setup because they have no real ability to influence whether the Lovers die (they can claim to avoid a lynch, and the Lover Killer doesn't have a nightkill, so the groupscum will control the death there).
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:13 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 4, callforjudgement wrote:The Lovers are effectively just a single player slot in this setup; as such, town have no real benefit/detriment to them dying early, late, or not at all. As such, they should probably claim to act as an Innocent Child (pretty much forcing the scum to kill them eventually, as scum can't get majority with the Lovers and the Lover Killer alive). This will force scum to start third-party hunting, meaning that they can't take out townies at night like they'd normally want to. The end result probably isn't townsided because town have so little power, but it helps bring town up to balance (the setup is scumsided if town aren't trying something like this, although I'm unsure which scum offhand).

The Lover Killer doesn't really work in the setup because they have no real ability to influence whether the Lovers die (they can claim to avoid a lynch, and the Lover Killer doesn't have a nightkill, so the groupscum will control the death there).
Can you explain the first part a bit more, the part about the lovers effectively being a single slot? The way I see it is that its a little more complicated than just a single slot because you have 2 people voting and they also function as Mason partners as well. It seems like the only real way they function as a single slot is that they both die at the same time. If that's the case then there would really never be a good reason to have lovers in this setup. I'm just giving my perspective here knowing that you know way more about setup spec than I do. Also, you say that it is optimal for Lovers to claim right out of the gate. So while this would give them the advantage of having two confirmed Townies right away, it also paints a huge target on their back and shortens the effectiveness that they could have if they were coordinating behind the shadows. If they claim right away, that gives them no way for POE later in the game for an easy solve. I guess my query is why would Lovers want to out themselves so early in the game when more can be gained from them claiming later in the game like on Day 2 if only VT have died or day 3 if a mafia has been lynched? My thought process here is that the Lovers can lead a wagon with 2 votes and coordinating Scum hunting.. Two Town on the same page like that going into day 2 could be pretty powerful. What do you think of this?

Also, I wanted the Lover killer to be able to win through means of manipulating Town or Scum into killing the Lovers through what they say and I did give them a means to find out who the lovers are. Ofc they can win by chance as well. How would you change the Lover killer while trying to keep the same concept alive in this setup? As an aside, the Lover Killer kinda works like a Traitor who the Mafia have to kill.

We are clearly seeing the setup differently. I see it as Town having two roles that are connected to each other that can either function the same or differently in the game. They have more knowledge of who is Town and can coordinate and Scum hunt together. Meanwhile, the mafia has Two targets of interest (the lovers and the lover killer) and they have to balance priorities on what target to try and go after first (Obv they are going to take anything they can get as opportunists). Then you have a 3p that has an investigative role and can use the knowledge gained from investigations to try and skillfully try and lead Town down a path to try and get enough votes on one of the lovers so they have to claim, there by fulfilling their win con one way or another (either by getting them lynched or night killed). The only threat that the lover killer poses to the Mafia is that the mafia have to kill them. Otherwise the lover killer is essentially helping to get one of the mafias targets killed.

Would this setup work better as a 13 player game where you would have for Town: Lovers (2) Cop (1) and then VT (6) For Mafia: Goons (3) and 3p: Lover Killer (1)? The reason I ask is because of what I stated earlier how Lovers give up some equity from being able to solve more of the game if they claim later and this would give them EV for claiming later, I think.

I just say all this trying to understand more about setups, so any explanation would help.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Thu Sep 01, 2016 5:57 am

Post by callforjudgement »

The basic issue is that it's very unlikely for the Lovers to survive to endgame (there's one player who needs to kill them, and two who want to kill them, and the design of the setup means that few players will be alive at endgame). This makes them effectively a hydra Doublevoter (and a town Doublevoter has basically zero balance impact apart from the ability to confirm their role, as there's nothing forcing their reads to be any better than anyone else's).

The only setup in which an endgame can possibly be reached with both the Lovers and Lover Killer alive is 2 Mafia: 2 Lovers: 1 Lover Killer. This is highly unlikely, and leads to a Mafia + Lover Killer victory anyway (lynch the lovers, then Mafia NK the Lover Killer to fulfil both factions' win conditions). As such, by the time endgame is reached, we're highly likely to have dead Lovers. So the Lover Killer doesn't need to actively do anything to meet their win condition. (Actually, I'm not 100% sure that they aren't just mathematically equivalent to a Traitor in this setup.)

I can see some potential sense in the Lovers waiting to out themselves until they're at L-1. They basically function as an Innocent Child, but nothing's forcing them to out immediately.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:42 am

Post by TierShift »

It's basically a 6:2:1 setup without PRs

Which is not balanced ever
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:09 pm

Post by LicketyQuickety »

In post 5, LicketyQuickety wrote:Would this setup work better as a 13 player game where you would have for Town: Lovers (2) Cop (1) and then VT (6) For Mafia: Goons (3) and 3p: Lover Killer (1)? The reason I ask is because of what I stated earlier how Lovers give up some equity from being able to solve more of the game if they claim later and this would give them EV for claiming later, I think.

I just say all this trying to understand more about setups, so any explanation would help.
I see no one took notice of this. I was originally thinking that the lovers would act as a double edged sword where if they keep hidden they can work together as 2 town members who know each other as Town, but I guess I am the only one who sees it that way. That's why I proposed this second setup, which is more normalized with an added cop and a more regular kind of setup with 9 town, one of which being a PR..
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:13 pm

Post by TierShift »

Lover killer still sides with mafia. Also, a random mafia kill is really likely to take out both lovers. If you remove a goon and add a VT it might just work.
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