[SETUP]

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
LicketyQuickety
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:58 pm

Just want to check for balance, I don't think I will be running this game. I just want to get a better idea of what a balanced setup is, that is all this is.

Town:
5/6 VT
1 Cop
1 Millar who is give and VT role.

Mafia:
2/1 Goon

Which setup is more balanced?
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Infinity 324
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:27 am

6 VT and 2 goon is the most balanced of these I think
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LicketyQuickety
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:04 am

I'll be honest, I was not thinking of a 10 player game here.
"...(I also think that meta-diving LQ proves that he's a "non-traditional" player (whatever that means) more than his words do)." ~Nachomamma8
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Infinity 324
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:34 am

Well I don't think anything else is balanced. 5 VT and 1 goon is way townsided, and 5 VT 2 goon is scumsided.
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LicketyQuickety
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:49 am

In post 3, Infinity 324 wrote:Well I don't think anything else is balanced. 5 VT and 1 goon is way townsided, and 5 VT 2 goon is scumsided.


What are your thoughts on the case of having 3 possible guilties for the cop as opposed to 2 and how that correlates with the number of Town in the game?
"...(I also think that meta-diving LQ proves that he's a "non-traditional" player (whatever that means) more than his words do)." ~Nachomamma8
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Infinity 324
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:00 am

I don't know exactly. If there wasn't a miller 7:2 might be balanced, but
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Infinity 324
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:02 am

but I still think town might need another power role to even it out on that case*

Now that I think about it though, 6:2 is evens and that gives scum an advantage. So idk
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TierShift
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:43 am

You need at least 2 scum because otherwise it is not mafia. You will wamt to have 5 VT because otherwise you will be at evens which is detrimental to town.

6 VT, 1 cop and 2 maf is pretty balanced so I'm not seeing where you are going with adding the miller. You just hurt town's chances to win for no reason at all. If you want to make it balanced I guess you would need to increase the number of VT so cop gets more investigations on average. However, that would not increase the fun factor.

Having fake guilties just isn't that much fun in practice.

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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:34 pm

In post 7, TierShift wrote:You need at least 2 scum because otherwise it is not mafia. You will wamt to have 5 VT because otherwise you will be at evens which is detrimental to town.

6 VT, 1 cop and 2 maf is pretty balanced so I'm not seeing where you are going with adding the miller. You just hurt town's chances to win for no reason at all. If you want to make it balanced I guess you would need to increase the number of VT so cop gets more investigations on average. However, that would not increase the fun factor.

Having fake guilties just isn't that much fun in practice.


Ah, well I might have a different outlook on setups because I have played other places where these kinds of setups get run. To each their own, some people like setups with millers and the like. Reason being is it adds an element of unpredictability that some people are attracted to.
"...(I also think that meta-diving LQ proves that he's a "non-traditional" player (whatever that means) more than his words do)." ~Nachomamma8
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TierShift
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:44 am

Sure, but the balance skews to the scum side if you include a miller.

chamber
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:29 am

I'm thinking 6VT 1Cop 2Goons is still scum sided. Probably quite a bit.
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TierShift
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:38 am

Newbie stats give 29/60 for town although I would have to do statistics to determine between which rates the actual winrate is likely to be.

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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:57 am

In post 10, chamber wrote:I'm thinking 6VT 1Cop 2Goons is still scum sided. Probably quite a bit.


This is interesting because I always thought a 13 player game with 3 goons and one cop was balanced.
"...(I also think that meta-diving LQ proves that he's a "non-traditional" player (whatever that means) more than his words do)." ~Nachomamma8
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callforjudgement
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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:12 pm

In post 12, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 10, chamber wrote:I'm thinking 6VT 1Cop 2Goons is still scum sided. Probably quite a bit.


This is interesting because I always thought a 13 player game with 3 goons and one cop was balanced.

I've seen arguments that it is as an Open, although I'm not sure if I agree with that. It very much skews the game because town has to focus on hiding the Cop whilst getting the Cop results into the open.

As a Closed game, it's definitely scumsided (not disastrously so – town will win sometimes – but enough so that I wouldn't call it balanced).
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:05 am

In post 13, callforjudgement wrote:
In post 12, LicketyQuickety wrote:
In post 10, chamber wrote:I'm thinking 6VT 1Cop 2Goons is still scum sided. Probably quite a bit.


This is interesting because I always thought a 13 player game with 3 goons and one cop was balanced.

I've seen arguments that it is as an Open, although I'm not sure if I agree with that. It very much skews the game because town has to focus on hiding the Cop whilst getting the Cop results into the open.

As a Closed game, it's definitely scumsided (not disastrously so – town will win sometimes – but enough so that I wouldn't call it balanced).


Statistically I think it is pretty balanced. I can't be arsed to find the stats, however. Just know that I have heard that stats on this setup relies on info not necessarily from this site (I know this site tends to think pretty highly of themselves).
"...(I also think that meta-diving LQ proves that he's a "non-traditional" player (whatever that means) more than his words do)." ~Nachomamma8
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callforjudgement
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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:50 am

Well, if a setup's scumsided here but balanced elsewhere, it could be because they're better at playing town, or it could be because we're better at playing scum. So it's hard to tell anything about the skill level of a site from the balance of setups there.

(This particular setup would need a metagame built around the setup, though; there are sites where having a defined strategy for specific setups is popular, but this isn't one of them, because we tend to discourage setups that would benefit from them. So I can well imagine town doing better in the setup elsewhere.)
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

LicketyQuickety
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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:37 pm

In post 15, callforjudgement wrote:Well, if a setup's scumsided here but balanced elsewhere, it could be because they're better at playing town, or it could be because we're better at playing scum. So it's hard to tell anything about the skill level of a site from the balance of setups there.

(This particular setup would need a metagame built around the setup, though; there are sites where having a defined strategy for specific setups is popular, but this isn't one of them, because we tend to discourage setups that would benefit from them. So I can well imagine town doing better in the setup elsewhere.)


Yeah, "leaving cover" is pretty much the way to go with this particular setup. If that's not a thing here, sure as hell that is going to make a difference.
"...(I also think that meta-diving LQ proves that he's a "non-traditional" player (whatever that means) more than his words do)." ~Nachomamma8
Surreptitious II: Secrecy and Misdirection is in the works.
Wiki up to date.


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