[Setup] VJK

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MarioManiac4
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:05 am

I'm probably going to be running this in the Micro queue as an open setup. Any advice would be appreciated.


Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Town Jailkeeper
Town Vigilante

Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon


Mafia have daytalk.
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randomidget
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:23 am

seems swingy but balanced. as long as the JK isn't killed early this is a very strong setup.
also if hte vig shot fails they can confirm the Jk results
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TesXX
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:18 am

I would say this is townsided because vig and jailkeeper are both powerful town PRs, but the the vig and jailkeeper can get in the way of eachother. I'd say it's balanced and it seems like a good setup.
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:30 pm

only way this becomes unbalanced during the game is vig + JK dying night 1 but if town plays well that won't happen.
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MarioManiac4
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:47 pm

Thanks for the feedback!
Yeah, I chose the Jailkeeper primarily because it's a strong power role to use against the scum in case the vig goes wrong, but it also gets in the way of the vig to some extent, and since Vig could shoot JK without them being able to claim, they both mess with each other but have very strong town utility independently. I'm glad to see people think this one is balanced!
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randomidget
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:52 pm

normally 2v7 mountainous is balanced by two strong town PRs or 3 PRs, so this should be balanced. only issue i can potentially see is the possibility of the game ending night 1 but that is pretty unlikely.
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mhsmith0
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Thu May 04, 2017 8:25 am

In mayrix6, where towns are generally worse than other queues, jailkeeepr alone makes 7v2 balanced in a semi open. Therefore this is almost certainly townsided.
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Thu May 04, 2017 11:16 am

vig isnt necessary town utility though
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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Thu May 04, 2017 11:23 am

It's overall protown even tho sometimes vigs are awful shots.
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MarioManiac4
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Thu May 04, 2017 11:24 am

a) scum don't have daytalk in matrix6
b) vig isn't always town-utility; could help scum win early
c) JK+Vig counter each other.
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TesXX
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Sat May 13, 2017 2:54 pm

Maybe to make it less town sided make JK or vig #-shot?
I tried to think of something to put in here but I can't think of anything
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Sat May 13, 2017 3:14 pm

In post 9, MarioManiac4 wrote:a) scum don't have daytalk in matrix6
b) vig isn't always town-utility; could help scum win early
c) JK+Vig counter each other.

JK and Vig are both super strong in a micro (especially once the first of them dies), so not really? Like if vig shoots jk and gets shot, town is hosed, but that's pretty unusual. Barring that, you have a vig who scum can't stop, who can light up the scumspects (and frankly, probably shouldn't be shooting n1 barring a jk lynch or a jk claim [in which case you shoot outside the jk claim]), and you have a jk who scum can't stop.

I'd almost say that scum should have a 1-shot bp AND a 1-shot strongman in this kind of setup for balance, though admittedly I haven't deeply thought on it.
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callforjudgement
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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:00 pm

Is JK + Vig versus 2 scum going into night a scum win (due to scum = town), or play on (because town can block one scum and shoot the other)? That may well have an impact on the balance, and is something that needs to be decided in advance.

Anyway, I agree with the other commenters that this is townsided. (A simple experiment that should convince you of this: if town massclaims day 1 and no-actions every night, which is clearly a terrible town strategy, the game effectively becomes a 5:2 nearly-nightless with a scum kill day 3. That's almost balanced in its own right (mildly scumsided, but only mildly). Now give town the power to kill, block kills, keep their role secret until they're about to be lynched, etc., and it's clear that this is mindbogglingly townsided.)
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:25 am

Breaking strategy for town: vig never shoots until a kill is stopped (except in the unlikely case where the vig and JK are the only town players left alive); JK focuses primarily on players who are considered good lynches; both town power roles claim at L-1 or lylo.

If the JK stops a kill, JK claims, lynch the JK target (they were looking like a good lynch anyway), and then the vig shoots in the following night. This should give town an overwhelming advantage.
If only one scum is left, anyone the JK targets is confirmed as town if the kill goes through that night, and if the kill doesn't go through, it means that the vig (if still alive) effectively buys town an extra lynch.
If 3:2 lylo is reached with both power roles alive, lynch in the VT claims (unless two players claim the same power role; if two players claim vig, no-lynch and have those players shoot each other, if two players claim JK, lynch within the JK claims).

All this doesn't guarantee town a win, but they clearly have a huge advantage.
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:11 pm

How this game would work on a 10:3?
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MarioManiac4
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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:01 pm

i do think this is pretty heavily townsided but i'm not 100% on how to change it

perhaps an ic would work well here, or a 1-shot jailkeeper
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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:02 pm

Maybe give mafia a conditional roleblocker that only works if both PRs are alive
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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:32 pm

Or just give them a roleblocker period.

Like,

Roleblocker
Goon

vs
Vig
Jailkeeper
5 VTs

is AT WORST about even and probably overall a bit townsided.
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Gamma Emerald
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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:15 am

That makes it really bad for Vig to claim then.
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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:58 pm

In post 18, Gamma Emerald wrote:That makes it really bad for Vig to claim then.

That sounds like a feature not a bug

Also it prevernts the jailkeeper from hitting the vig which is also not terrible for town?
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