[SETUP] Justice for Cassandra

[BlackVoid]

If you remember the time when you had a strong scumread and wanted to lynch them but the dumb town

just wouldn't listen

while the obvscum ran amok all over the thread while the town mislynched you, this is the setup for you! If you're town there's about a 50% chance of you drawing a role where you either won't be lynched, can kill your scumreads, or can make the people that lynched you pay dearly for their crime.

17 Player Game:

13 town

vs

4 mafia

. Mafia have daytalk. 1 week days, 24 hour nights.

7 Vanilla Townies
1 Innocent Child (will be announced at gamestart)
1 Town Vigilante
1 Town Backup Vigilante (receives Vanilla Townie Role PM)
1 Town Backup Backup Vigilante (receives Vanilla Townie Role PM)
2 Vengeful Townies (receive Vanilla Townie Role PMs)

4 Mafia Goons

My biggest concern was how optimal it would be to massclaim D1 to reduce the odds of vig hitting one of the backups. That would create a lot of named townies which might lead to heavy POE and break the game.

So, here's how the setup works: At the start of the game, 11/13 townies (all except the IC and Vig) receive VT role PMs. When the Vig dies, the first backup vig will receive the vig role PM. When both the vig and the backup die, the second backup vig will receive the vig role PM. The Vengeful townies only find out that they are vengeful after they get lynched. So, they'd be fighting against their lynch on the 11 in 13 chance that they are not vengeful. That ties in with my theme that a frustrated townie who did everything to prevent their lynch gets to take a shot at their scumreads.

Pregame, I'll give mafia two pieces of info: 1) I'll randomly pick one VT and inform the mafia that they are definitely a VT. 2) Mafia can pick a second player and I'll tell the mafia whether that player is definitely a VT or not. The players in question will not have this information. This is to help mafia POE so they don't get too many surprises lategame.

Thoughts on the setup would be much appreciated. I think it's scumsided at first glance but the town almost certainly has a townsided nightkill for at least three nights in addition to the lynch so I think it evens out. I'm toying around with the idea of adding an extra VT to make it an 18 player game to reduce swing.

[MarioManiac4]

this would be balanced if town had some sort of investigative in place of a vengeful or summat IMO.
An extra VT wouldn't go amiss

[BlackVoid]

I don't really want to do investigatives. I want to see if a setup based mostly on town killing roles would work.

The problem with investigative roles in my opinion is that it doesn't take much skill to use them. You can investigate

anyone

and still have it be useful. It's fine as a balancing mechanism to make some people unlynchable but I wanted this setup to be for those people who had a moment where they really wanted someone dead but nobody listened to them.

If it's scumsided, I would actually add a treestump in place of one of the vanilla townies. It would be hidden of course but once lynched, the treestump can still speak in thread. They just won't have a vote and would be "dead" for endgame purposes.

[Regfan]

13:4 - D1 Lynch (1)
11:4 - N1 Kill & Vig Shot (2)
10:4 - D2 Lynch (3)
8:4 - N2 Kill & Vig Shot (4)
7:4 - D3 Lynch (5)
5:4 - N3 Kill & Vig Shot (6)
4:4 - D4 Lynch (7)

Mafia need 7 mslynches/misvigs to win the game, that feels like an awful lot given town can probably afford to have the IC & Vig out D1, mafia can shoot the IC sure but it prevents it from being misvigged and means that if the mafia don't shoot the vig the following night town maintain a clear in the open and if they do another player can claim and become cleared.

This feels pretty town sided, obviously vengeful lynches and shots change the maths a bit but only in a more town sided manner.

[Regfan]

I'd have to imagine that mafia just never shooting the claimed vig is the optimal play for them mathematically given shooting it doesn't reduce the clears alive the following day and does reduce the amount of uncleared players for town. I may run some maths on it later but I can't help but think this'll be quite town sided if town lynch / the vig shoots randomly even and with scumhunting involved and the fact that scum kind of can't fake claim at all this feels like a dull game for mafia.

Eh but then there's the issue of if mafia aren't shooting the vig they're shooting a VT and still reducing the amount of unclears in the setup via doing that which means the difference in terms of maths between shooting VT's / The Current Vig are pretty irrelevant, the only difference is in practice shooting a VT you know which unclear player you're removing from the game whereas with the vig any unclear can become clear.

[BlackVoid]

Hmm, vig outing D1 wasn't really what I was hoping for and I agree that in this case it would be optimal strategy and scum won't shoot the vig unless they are really good. Seems like a consequence of trying to keep the other roles hidden.

What if I add in a scum roleblocker? That gives the vig a lot of motivation to stay hidden. That still doesn't give the scum any motive to actually kill the vig though since if they find out who it is, they can just roleblock them but if they kill the vig, new player unknown to the mafia will get it which actually makes it a bad idea to kill the vig. I'd maybe add in a backup roleblocker for the scum just in case the roleblocker goes to lynchbait scum. Or maybe just give scum a factional roleblock which means vig really has to stay hidden. Also considering ditching the IC if that'll make it more balanced.

[BlackVoid]

Actually I like that the vig outing means that they'll be perpetually roleblocked and town misses out of several other potential clears. So, vig has a ton of motivation to always conceal their role. In fact, if the vig is at L-1 with intent to claim, it might be higher EV to claim VT and get lynched than to claim vig.

[Regfan]

Okay so ignoring Vengefuls potential to change numbers town have absolute minimum 10 kills to kill 4 mafia inside a 17 player game which involves two players that are absolutely unlynchable/unkillable based on the vig claiming if ever run up if not already claimed D1 element and IC just claiming D1 with the element that if the vig gets shot another player replaces them as unlynchable/unkillable, got to be town sided.

Heck town don't even have to have the IC claim D1, they can just "Vote to lynch -> If IC is ever getting run up they activate" and -> "Vote for the vig shot -> If the IC is ever getting voted to be shot as vig they activate" making it even more town sided since scum can't fake claim IC even then.

[BlackVoid]

I was thinking of ditching the IC in the change I was making, but if I kept it, it would be the kind that is announced at gamestart.

[Regfan]

Yeah, I don't particularly see the point of the IC here and it increases towns EV rather significantly in this setup since there's ways to make sure it's never vigged. If it's the kind where it's announced on game start then it just always dies N1 since there's never any reason for the scum not to shoot it and no way to protect it, it feels like giving someone a "Play D1 and fuck off" role PM. I'd remove it here?

I think scum having some form of roleblock to give them options and ways to work around a claimed vig is a good idea and prevents D1 claims.

I just feel like this would be a pretty unfun setup to play as scum though but that's not particularly a good reason not to go ahead with it.

[BlackVoid]

You are probably right in it being unfun for scum and I'm going to change that. My reason for making it was more to experiment with what'll happen if townies are given a way to follow-through on their urges. But I'd rather have it slightly scum-sided than make it too hard on the scum having to dodge all the vigs.

I was thinking of replacing the IC with a treestump (if they are lynched, they are dead but can continue talking in thread. If they are nk'd they die normally. They are given a VT role PM at first). Reasoning is more along the theme of a frustrated townie getting lynched can now use their flip as more reason to push their scumreads. They have a voice but not a vote.

So, 7 VTs, 2 Vengefuls, Treestump, Vig, Backup vig, Backup Backup vig, against 4 goons with a factional roleblock every night. What would be optimal strategy for town and scum?

As town, the only "clear" would be a vig claim but if the vig claims, that completely changes the game into a 13:4 mountainous with a clear and basically reduce town's odds by a lot. So, vig has to hide. In fact, if vig is outed, lynching the confirmed town vig may not be a bad idea in order to basically change the setup from a mountainous to one where town has potentially two kills per cycle.

As scum, I'd obviously be looking really hard for vig tells so I can spot and roleblock them. Assuming the vig stays hidden, mafia still need 7 mislynches/misvigs to win but there are no clears.

[Regfan]

I'd be fine with the factional roleblock if you removed your "Scum have information pregame" plan.

Sure changing the IC to a VT that flips as a treestump is a fine change in theory, I find that in practice though treestumps and roles of that sort kind of flake or lurk once they've flipped and generally have very little actual game impact but with the shorter deadlines maybe they'll be more inclined to follow along?

You're not wrong in that town may be better of just outright lynching their vig if they've been forced to claim given that without the vig shots to increase towns KP it'd be a scum sided setup, a lot of this will come down to how well they hide and them making sure they don't get roleblocked / forced to claim. There's a few weird plays scum can make, if they ever get run up fake claiming vig and attempting to bait the CC (Rather than the optimal vig route of shutting up and shooting them in the face) is a ballsy play they can make, if that doesn't work they'll probably have information on who the vig is/isn't based on peoples reactions.

I certainly prefer the amended version with IC out, VT (Treestumped at lynch) version with scum having a factional roleblock here.

I'm heading to bed soon but I'll mull on it a bit more tomorrow and let you know my thoughts then.

Towns optimal strategy is probably just a "Flat out scumhunt & don't have anyone claim" plan, can't see anything better for them.

[Randomnamechange]

could have a scum X-Shot Doc?

[Regfan]

I feel like that detracts from the point of the setup though.

[Randomnamechange]

fair enough. doesnt it accomplish a similar role to an RB though?

[Regfan]

fair enough. doesnt it accomplish a similar role to an RB though?

Not really? Roleblocker stops the vig from being able to outright claim inside the setup, doctor does not.
Roleblocker doesn't reduce the odds of the vig hitting mafia whereas Doctor does.

[Randomnamechange]

ok i see what you mean i was looking at it from the scum perspective mb

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, with doc, whether or not the vig manages to kill someone becomes a matter of hitting the

right

scum as opposed to any scum which I think introduces some randomness that isn't entirely dependent on the vig's scumhunting ability. But with a factional roleblock, the vig just needs to adopt a standard PR-trying-to-hide strategy.

I think I'm going to go with the amended setup and get rid of the pregame scum info. Regarding the treestump, if they lose interest, they become functionally the same as a VT so I'm not hugely concerned.

What queues can I run it in? It's an open game but it seems like Open setups need to be approved and I'm not sure who to ask for that. I can't run it as a Mini/Micro since it's 17 players and I think a smaller game with so many killing roles would be a bit too short/swingy like Mini 1897. That just leaves the Large Theme Queue which I'm not qualified to run games in.

What are the chances of this getting approved as an Open or a Large normal?

[Gamma Emerald]

I wouldn't suggest as a normal since the setup is already in the open

[BlackVoid]

Do normals necessarily need to be closed?

[Gamma Emerald]

The only open one I've seen was open due to a mistake

[mhsmith0]

It's not a hard and fast rule, but it is definitely an expectation that normals will be closed.

[Toto]

I'd replace IC with a named townie.

See here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=71850