[SETUP] Fighting Fate Mafia

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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[SETUP] Fighting Fate Mafia

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:40 pm

Post by mastina »

First time doing this so I'm probably fucking up massively with it, but I thought of this:
Envisioned as a micro, but possible to scale up in size (if tweaked).
(Has absolutely nothing to do with the mafiascum user. Presumably.)

Fighting Fate Mafia Setup
  • 2 mafia goons
  • 1 town oracle (see below)
  • 1 town doctor (see below)
  • 5 vanilla townies
  • Mafia have daytalk
  • Delayed kill/protect mechanic
The game features a
"delayed"
mechanic.

Each
day
, the mafia select a player to be nightkilled. (The mafia may select one of their own members to be nightkilled.) This player will not be nightkilled the current night phase, but the
following
night phase. E.g. the mafia decide to kill Player A on D1. Player A will die N2. The mafia may submit no nightkill should they choose to. (And they can fail to submit one.)

Each
day
, the doctor selects a player to be protected from the nightkill. This player will not be protected the current night phase, but the
following
night phase. E.g. the doctor decides to protect Player A on D1. Player A will be protected N2. This protection is not compulsive, thus, the doctor can choose to no action/fail to submit an action. The doctor
is
capable of self-protecting. However, the doctor must be alive to protect a player; if the doctor is dead (be it via lynch or nightkill), their protection will not go through.

Each day after D1, the town oracle will receive the name of the player set to die for the current night phase. E.g. if the mafia submitted Player A on D1, then on D2, the oracle would be told that Player A is set to be the nightkill N2.

Once in the game (other than N1), during the night, the mafia may choose to change their nightkill for the
current
night. E.g. If the mafia chose to kill Player A on D1, then during N2 they may consume their one-shot change to change their nightkill to Player B for N2. (This will not impact their already-locked-in N3 nightkill.)

Once in the game (other than N1), during the night, the town doctor may choose to change their protection for the
current
night. E.g. If the doctor chose to protect Player A on D1, then during N2 they may consume their one-shot change to change their protection to Player B for N2. (This will not impact their already-locked-in N3 protection.)

NOTE:
I deliberately envisioned the oracle as a role, rather than as a public reveal mechanic (the alternative mechanism for delivering the information about the nightkill). I felt that, overall, while it did risk the potential for the mechanic to be lost reasonably early on, it gave flexibility both in townplay and scumplay. Plus, it gives town two power roles which are either confirmed town or enter 1v1s with mafia players. (The mafia can fake being the oracle; the mafia can counterclaim doctor just like in any other game.)

Since there's guaranteed to be no N1 nightkill, town gets to be on evens from essentially the onset and learn information from two lynches before a nightkill is fired off. If a single kill is prevented, then the town gains an extra lynch. That, plus the conftown, plus the knowledge of which player is going to die in advance, is meant to balance out what would otherwise be a close-to-mountainous game.

Sample Role PMs
Mafia GoonHello and welcome to Fighting Fate Mafia,
Playername
.
You are a
Mafia Goon
.
Your partner,
PlayerX
, is also a goon.
You may talk in this private topic at any time.

During the current day phase, you may target a player. During the next night phase, that player will die.
Once in the game, during the night, you may choose to override your nightkill for the current night phase.

You win when
the
mafia
control 50% of the town, or nothing could prevent this.
Please confirm your role via PM.
The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, and have fun!

Town DoctorHello and welcome to Fighting Fate Mafia,
Playername
.
You are a
Town
Doctor
.

During the current day phase, you may target a player. During the next night phase, that player will be prevented from being nightkilled. You may self-target.
Once in the game, during the night, you may choose to override your protection for the current night phase.

You win when all threats to
the
town
are eliminated.
Please confirm your role via PM.
The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, and have fun!

Town OracleHello and welcome to Fighting Fate Mafia,
Playername
.
You are a
Town Oracle
.

Each day after D1, you will receive a name. That name will be the player set to die during the current night phase.

You win when all threats to
the
town
are eliminated.
Please confirm your role via PM.
The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, and have fun!

Vanilla TownieHello and welcome to Fighting Fate Mafia,
Playername
.
You are a
Vanilla Townie
.
Your only tools are your voice and vote.

You win when all threats to
the
town
are eliminated.
Please confirm your role via PM.
The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, and have fun!
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:44 am

Post by Mathdino »

I'm worried that the mechanics wouldn't work as well in a micro setting. Micros, on average, only have about 3 NKs anyway.

A few things that would make this swingy:
- The WIFOM of when the doc switches and when the mafia switch could end up turning the game
- The mafia can use their one switch to make it look like they're killing mafia; the oracle can reveal (leading to a doc switch) or breadcrumb the original kill
- Any game whose mechanics fundamentally revolve around protection isn't a great call for a micro IMO. Leads to no lynching becoming viable too often.

I'm wondering if there's a way this could be made interesting as a mini, while also removing some of the WIFOM shell game between the doc and the mafia. My preliminary guess is that both shouldn't be allowed to switch.

This is actually pretty similar to Marked For Death, which has been running lately, and could be considered a variation/expansion on that delayed NK mechanic. I think it's pretty interesting!
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:05 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 1, Mathdino wrote:I'm wondering if there's a way this could be made interesting as a mini, while also removing some of the WIFOM shell game between the doc and the mafia.
Scaled up to be a mini, I had the thought of adding in a town tracker (I actually originally envisioned the setup with one but realized it couldn't work in an open micro), who submits during the night and tracks for the
current
night.

This would PROBABLY replace the town oracle (with the oracle mechanic still being public) because this being an open setup having three conftown with a protect, investigative, and mechanic may be atrociously townsided, so that'd create the setup of:

Fighting Fate Mafia Mini A
  • 3 mafia goons
  • 1 town doctor
  • 1 town tracker (CURRENT night)
  • 8 vanilla townies
  • Mafia have daytalk
  • Delayed kill(must specify killer)/protect mechanic
  • Publicly known nightkill mechanic

...Or if having the town oracle
isn't
townsided, then:


Fighting Fate Mafia Mini B
  • 3 mafia goons
  • 1 town doctor
  • 1 town oracle
  • 1 town tracker (CURRENT night)
  • 7 vanilla townies
  • Mafia have daytalk
  • Delayed kill(must specify killer)/protect mechanic

Intuitively, the latter feels townsided; the former feels closer to balanced but may still favor the town especially if the mafia cannot switch (which seems like the one who would have their switch removed if someone had their switch ability taken away).

Sample tracker PM:
Town TrackerHello and welcome to Fighting Fate Mafia,
Playername
.
You are a
Town Tracker
.

Each night after N1, during the night, target a player. You will learn who, if anyone, that player visited.

You win when all threats to
the
town
are eliminated.
Please confirm your role via PM.
The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, and have fun!
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:16 pm

Post by mastina »

Incidentally, mafia needing to specify who the killer is could in of itself without the need for a tracker be enough on its own to create balance, given that the mafia have to protect the killer for two day phases (the day phase where they submit the kill and the day phase following) in order to ensure the kill goes through. So, alternatives to the above would be:

Fighting Fate Mafia Mini C
  • 1 town doctor
  • 9 vanilla townies
  • Mafia have daytalk
  • Delayed kill(must specify killer)/protect mechanic
  • Publicly known nightkill mechanic


Fighting Fate Mafia Mini D
  • 3 mafia goons
  • 1 town doctor
  • 1 town oracle
  • 8 vanilla townies
  • Mafia have daytalk
  • Delayed kill(must specify killer)/protect mechanic

...In this instance, intuitively, C feels like it might be a bit scumsided in spite of them needing to protect the killer (a potential mitigation is removing the mafia's ability to switch); D is more in line with the game as in the OP (as the micro) and feels more close to the mark balance-wise (and would probably not have the switch removed as a result).

Between the four setups I've got for the mini-sized ones, I'd think that A (potentially modified to weaken the town if it's townsided), C (potentially modified to weaken the scum if it's scumsided), or D (probably the one which needs the least amount of modification) are the most viable overall.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:24 am

Post by mith »

In post 1, Mathdino wrote:I'm worried that the mechanics wouldn't work as well in a micro setting. Micros, on average, only have about 3 NKs anyway.

A few things that would make this swingy:
- The WIFOM of when the doc switches and when the mafia switch could end up turning the game
- The mafia can use their one switch to make it look like they're killing mafia; the oracle can reveal (leading to a doc switch) or breadcrumb the original kill
- Any game whose mechanics fundamentally revolve around protection isn't a great call for a micro IMO. Leads to no lynching becoming viable too often.
The Micro version is also almost certainly broken by massclaim; town is guaranteed to get 4 lynches because of the lack of N1 kill, so Mafia can't counter both roles. Doctor being able to self-protect also means doctor doesn't lose anything by claiming. No counter claims reduces it to at worst two Innocent Children with one unkillable, and the Doc ability in particular can potentially gain an extra lynch at the cost of a small risk of dying (there would be a sort of WIFOM game between Doc and Mafia switching their choices). Too lazy to calculate lower bound EVs right now, but I'd be surprised if this isn't at least 60% for Town. Maybe Mafia should counter one role, but if it's Doc then it may be best for Doc to switch protection to Oracle (Mafia killing Doc means outing the counterclaim); and if it's Oracle, Mafia has to give the true Oracle result most of the time or be caught requiring too many switches (plus a confirmed innocent unkillable Doc is just too strong).

The Mini setups are almost certainly better, though I would still get rid of the self-protecting Doc.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:01 am

Post by Sukima »

Can't you just make the doc non-consecutive night same target in that case?
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