[SETUP] Round and Round

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
Irrelephant11
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:58 pm

Okay so I had this idea for a setup. I have little interest in modding ever but I still like to think about setups.

10 town
3 scum

Both teams are placed randomly on a rotating “wheel” of power roles and vanilla slots.

Town Wheel:
1 Vanilla townie
2 Vanilla townie
3 Vanilla townie
4 Tracker
5 Doctor
6 Vanilla townie
7 Town slotcop
8 Vanilla townie
9 Vanilla Cop
10 Vanilla townie
11 1-shot bulletproof

Mafia Wheel
1 Mafia Rolecop
2 Mafia Roleblocker
3 Mafia goon
4 Mafia goon

Note that one slot is randomly empty on both wheels.

Players receive role PMs at the beginning of the game, but goons and vts will have no way to know what slot they start on.

Between each night phase and the following day phase, every player is moved down a slot, and they receive a new role PM (if any).

Whenever a player is killed by any means, their role, alignment AND slot flip, and are removed from their respective wheel. All slots below it on the wheel “collapse” upwards to keep even numerical order. Example: The first lynch is “7 Town slotcop”, Mafia Wheel remains unaffected, Town slots 1-6 remain unaffected, and Town slots 8-11 move up to 7-10.

Wheels are public information at all times.

Slotcop receives as a night result the slot number currently occupied by the player. As the wheels currently stand, a result of “3” could mean either VT or goon, while a result above 4 is always town.

When shot at, the 1-shot bulletproof role becomes “0-shot bulletproof” for all future role PMs.


I like a lot of the ideas I put into this, but am clueless about EV calculation. I’d love if anyone shared those or if any experts shared instinctual balance thoughts.

northsidegal
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:41 pm

is it not just broken by massclaim?
washed up (?)

Irrelephant11
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:27 pm

How so? Mafia can kill the doctor and roleblock an investigative if they know who they are, removing those roles from the game

Irrelephant11
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:29 pm

*removing doctor from game and preventing much town info

chamber
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:41 pm

Even if you only massclaim what you were the previous night, surely that causes a lot of issues. (especially if no lynching twice is considered).
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Irrelephant11
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:09 pm

Explain “causes a lot of issues” - for mafia? For the setup? If either of you have suggestions to fix the problems you see, I’m open to them!

I tried to somewhat discourage claiming tracker by making the next thing doctor... should there be more power roles back to back?

mith
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:53 am

It's not so much about what the roles are. Consider the following scenario:

D1: No lynch, no one says anything about their role.
N1: Maifa kill someone with no information - maybe they get lucky and kill the Cop, Slotcop, or Tracker. All the town roles do something, and then everyone moves slots.
D2: Everyone first claims whether they had a power role or not D1/N1, in some random order (or popcorn).

Now you've forced the scum to either fake claim having had a power role. If none of them do, you've got 3-4 power role claims (if scum got lucky, 4-5 if they didn't) with at most one fake. That's a ton of information about likely innocents, and at most one of those (legit) claims still has a power role (Tracker -> Doctor) so scum don't even get the normal benefit of outing a role. If several of them do, now you've got a bunch of power role claims and you know some of them are scum - at this point, town could go ahead and get full claims from all of them, including investigative information, locking scum into a slot claim, and again have a ton of information to work with. Probably 1-2 scum want to fake claim power roles?

And then you can no lynch again and do the same the next day.

Some of this could be fixed by not making the order of the wheel known up front. But even just the knowledge of what power roles are possible and how many is a lot of info, and adding the slot progression on top just makes it worse for scum.

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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:09 pm

What if lynch was mandatory? Though it doesn't really solve the problem of Town being able to out info without fear of losing the utility of the power role due to getting NK'd. Also it's not a cop, it's a vanilla cop.

Irrelephant11
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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:24 pm

I mean, tracker won't be outing D2, as they'd die as doctor, the vanilla cop can only verify one person's Pr/not PR claim (not necessarily their alignment), and if the slotcop gets a "guilty" (#1-4), that player can easily say "Oh, well I got vanilla townie twice in a row, so that makes sense". Also, if everyone claims D2 what they were the previous day, scum can reasonably shoot for a PR with a fair chance of success (with both NK and roleblocker).

What if slots 8 and 9 swap?

1 Vanilla townie
2 Vanilla townie
3 Vanilla townie
4 Tracker
5 Doctor
6 Vanilla townie
7 Town slotcop
8 Vanilla Cop
9 Vanilla townie
10 Vanilla townie
11 1-shot bulletproof

This makes claiming even less beneficial, as scum know another PR location for sure.

Also, I had originally set this up where scum has a slotcop instead of a rolecop. Sounds like that would help with balance, yes?

Irrelephant11
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:28 pm

I don't think there's that much information to be gained, on average, by asking the three investigatives for their results, and both scum AND doctor have incentive to lie about being a vt the night before, making it hard to discern who's lying and why.

Another thought that might balance things - after D1, only scum knows which slots are dying, while town only receives the role/alignment?

mith
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:35 pm

Again, it's not the roles themselves that matter much (though having investigations doesn't hurt). It's simply the fact that there are (so many) named roles and that town can use that knowledge to force scum into claiming a slot. It doesn't matter that claiming Tracker would expose the current Doctor to being nightkilled, if by the start of D3 every player is locked into a slot or two.

I'd be a little surprised if town couldn't force a win in this setup even if the named power roles didn't actually do anything.

Irrelephant11
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:55 pm

What about something like...

1 Vanilla townie
2 Vanilla townie
3 Vanilla townie
4 Tracker
5 Doctor
6 Vanilla townie
7 Vanilla townie
8 Vanilla townie
9 Vanilla townie
10 Town slotcop
11 Vanilla Cop

This would leave five townies unsure of their slot by D2, and two town PRs somewhat incentivized to hide their slot D2. Not to mention, if mafia can figure out the empty town slot, they can safely claim it. Actually, is that what would be more helpful? A couple more empty slots on the town wheel?

Or perhaps even mafia being told at gamestart which slot is empty? Though, that might be overcompensating...

Irrelephant11
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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:05 pm

Another wheel, with more room for mafia fakeclaims:

1 Vanilla townie
2 Vanilla townie
3 Vanilla townie
4 Tracker
5 Doctor
6 Vanilla townie
7 Vanilla townie
8 Vanilla townie
9 1-shot Bulletproof
10 Vanilla townie
11 Vanilla townie
12 Town Slotcop
13 Vanilla Cop

Three slots are empty. If scum can manage to get town to claim first, they can claim the three empty slots and know where the PRs are. If they're forced to claim first, this wouldn't work, but in that case "mafia git gud".

Then some possible rule changes:

Slots are only revealed to mafia on death, while everyone learns role/alignment. This gives mafia more cover to claim "townie twice" and keep that claim consistent all game.
and/or
Mafia rolecop becomes mafia day slotcop.

Obviously part of my goal here is to share power - any town who lasts four days gets to play a PR, assuming reasonably good town play (not letting all the PRs die early).

BBmolla
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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:35 pm

Better solution is to make one big wheel that the mafia are a part of. Currently the issue is the separate wheels give town knowledge scum do not have.

Irrelephant11
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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:59 pm

Telling mafia which roles were randed empty would somewhat fix this, no?

BBmolla
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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:41 pm

That’s an okay fix too.

Irrelephant11
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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:57 am

Edited version:

10 town
3 scum

Both teams are placed randomly on a rotating “wheel” of power roles and vanilla slots.

Town Wheel:
1 Vanilla townie
2 Vanilla townie
3 Vanilla townie
4 Tracker
5 Doctor
6 Vanilla townie
7 Vanilla townie
8 Vanilla townie
9 1-shot Bulletproof
10 Vanilla townie
11 Vanilla townie
12 Town Slotcop
13 Vanilla Cop

Mafia Wheel
1 Mafia Rolecop
2 Mafia Roleblocker
3 Mafia goon
4 Mafia goon

Note that there are always empty slots. Mafia are told which town slots are empty at gamestart.

Players receive role PMs at the beginning of the game, but goons and vts will have no way to know what slot they start on.

Between each night phase and the following day phase, every player is moved down a slot, and they receive a new role PM (if any).

Whenever a player is killed by any means, their role, alignment AND slot flip, and are removed from their respective wheel. All slots below it on the wheel “collapse” upwards to keep even numerical order. Example: The first lynch is “7 Town slotcop”, Mafia Wheel remains unaffected, Town slots 1-6 remain unaffected, and Town slots 8-13 move up to 7-12.

Wheels are public information at all times.

Slotcop receives as a night result the slot number currently occupied by the player. As the wheels currently stand, a result of “3” could mean either VT or goon, while a result above 4 is always town.

Edit: When shot at, the 1-shot bulletproof role becomes “0-shot bulletproof” for all future role PMs. When shot at, the 1-shot bulletproof's 1-shot is used up for the rest of the game (i.e. the "1-shot" doesn't just reset every time a new player has the role). Future players who move into this slot are notified by a separate PM that the shot has been used.
Last edited by Irrelephant11 on Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gamma Emerald
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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:39 pm

When shot at, the 1-shot bulletproof role becomes “0-shot bulletproof” for all future role PMs.
This isn’t standard, are you sure you want to keep this because it could be confusing
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Irrelephant11
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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:56 pm

Yes, I want that slot to read as “not Vanilla” to the Vanilla cop and to only help town survive one shot.

Are there other setups that involve changing role PMs and x-shot bulletproofs?

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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:30 pm

I don't think any include both
When a OS BP is hit its role is the same but the shot is expended. You can definitely still keep it how it is without making anything drastically different I'm just making a note since a new mod might mod this and the thing you wrote isn't the standard usage.
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Irrelephant11
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Post Post #20  (ISO)  » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:34 pm

I guess all I'm saying is that when a vanilla townie moves into the bulletproof slot, they know if the slot still has a bulletproof shot or not. Regardless, the slot never becomes vanilla. However mod wants to make that clear is fine.

I think we're saying the same thing, actually. the shot is expended, and anyone who becomes that role knows it.

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Post Post #21  (ISO)  » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:42 pm

Okay, that sound closer to some stuff I've seen in the past though it's still not the standard. What I'd do is just PM the person that it has been used rather than change the role name. also keep in mind that rolecop is affected by a role name being changed.
Other than that I guess it's good
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Irrelephant11
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Post Post #22  (ISO)  » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:45 pm

Ohhhh right I don't want rolecop to get that info. Okay let me edit that.

callforjudgement
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Post Post #23  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:03 am

The town wheel has to be almost entirely vanilla, because otherwise town players will quickly figure out which slot they're in. Imagine a system where players claim which slot they're in when they're run up, and any player who becomes aware that they're in that slot (immediately or later) counterclaims. The game will likely devolve into a series of 1v1s (unless scum are lucky enough to guess at a vacant slot and claim that).

In your edited version, by D3, every town player will know which slot they're in apart from the players currently in slots 3 and 8 (who won't know which of those two slots they're in). At most one scum can realistically claim to be in a "3 or 8" slot (if two players claim to be in that slot, anyone else in one of those slots can counterclaim). So by day 3, you'll have three pools of players of size 3, 2 and 2, each of which is known to contain one scum (unless scum guess a vacant slot, which will be easier the fewer townies have been run up). This is on top of any information gleaned from the power roles (the slotcop being the most powerful; town can likely get a lot of use out of it via hypocopping).
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

Irrelephant11
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Post Post #24  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:18 am

@callforjudgment, I think you missed the part where scum are told which three town slots are empty, giving them realistic fakeclaims

This is specifically only in the edited version, but I’m pretty sure it addresses the claiming strategies from town

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