[SETUP] Double Election

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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[SETUP] Double Election

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:29 pm

Post by BNL »

3 Mafia
7 Townies

Every Day, town vote for 2 people.

-If 2 Townies are voted for, both are lynched
-If a Townie and a Mafia is voted for, the Mafia is lynched
-If 2 Mafia are voted for, the Mafia choose one of those Mafia to be lynched

If Town lynch randomly each Day, the EV is 13/27, or 48.15%. I'm not sure that's the best strategy though, because I believe upon a M/? lynch, the ? has a >rand chance of being town than scum, although I believe this is compensated by the Mafia killing them >rand amount of the time.

This setup is interesting because, unlike normal Mafia where you are more likely to mislynch than lynch, here you are more likely to lynch than mislynch. To compensate, you need more lynches than you can afford mislynches.

Also, I'm not sure how the winrate will differ from EV due to mechanics.
Last edited by BNL on Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:36 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

this is
a very spicy setup
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:37 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Can you tinker with the same lynch mechanics and make a viable nightless setup?
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:23 pm

Post by Invisibility »

cool
Invisibility is actually AWESOME!
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:38 pm

Post by Creature »

Should scum have an already set priority order they can change whenever incase two of them are lynched so game doesn't need to be paused?
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:19 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

I like the concept but am not a fan of the numbers of people dying in each scenario being different. Reminds me of another setup, double investigation.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:44 pm

Post by Irrelephant11 »

In post 2, RadiantCowbells wrote:Can you tinker with the same lynch mechanics and make a viable nightless setup?
In post 5, Gamma Emerald wrote:I like the concept but am not a fan of the numbers of people dying in each scenario being different. Reminds me of another setup, double investigation.
Whenever scum dies, they get a vengekill
It's nightless

That way it's:
always two deaths, like a normal game
and it's nightless

And also it leads to the fun situation where scum vengekills someone other than the other lynch so as to fake spew that other slot red
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:27 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I mean nightless without giving scum vengekills.
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:33 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Nightless with scum vengekills is hardly nightless tbh
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:57 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

mm. Well, I tried!

Nice sig btw
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:01 pm

Post by BBmolla »

this one is solid
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:05 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

Ooh I just realized that 1/3 (usually mylo) becomes lylo in this setup
fascinating
I think this gets a lot harder for scum when there's only one scum remaining - mafia really needs to stay alive as a group to win. I think this will end up having a lot of unique bussing gambits
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:27 pm

Post by BNL »

I don't think 1/3 is achievable in this setup; I think only 1/2, 2/3, 3/4, 1/5, 2/6, 3/7 are possible notwithstanding a no lynch.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:55 pm

Post by BuJaber »

In post 7, RadiantCowbells wrote:I mean nightless without giving scum vengekills.
What happens if all townies are 'hated'? Would that make it balanced for nightless?

L-1 would essentially become hammer. If it isn't hammer it's a guilty. But at the same time town are easier to lynch.

It also makes town much more hesitant to join wagons which could add an extra layer of WIFOM.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:42 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

1 scum dies
1 scum dies
two townies die
two townies die

1/3

edit:nvm I was thinking nightless

@BuJ idk how that works if one wagon is town and the other is scum - only scum should die there, but I think the town would get confirmed by reaching a lynch first
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:19 am

Post by BuJaber »

In post 14, Irrelephant11 wrote:@BuJ idk how that works if one wagon is town and the other is scum - only scum should die there, but I think the town would get confirmed by reaching a lynch first
As I was writing a response I realized I don't actually know how Bullet is imagining the voting would work.

Is each player forced to vote for 2 people at the same time?
Or is it voting is normal but as soon as a hammer occurrs that player is treated dead until a 2nd hammer and then the flip occurs?
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:58 am

Post by BNL »

I currently envision it as voting for a pair of players rather than two separate votes
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:21 pm

Post by BNL »

Seeing how well received this setup is, I want to test it out after I have completed modding my mini theme. Hence any further discussion would be appreciated :)
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:53 am

Post by BuJaber »

Tbh I think it's town-sided.
I feel like the lynch resolutions give away too much info.

Though now that I say that I don't know how much things change is scum choose NOT to kill for 1, 2, or 3 nights? That might actually be their best shot because it increases the odds of mislynching during the day.

In fact if you consider the option of not killing during the night, you can end up with many different day ratios, including the 1:3 elephant was talking about.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:21 am

Post by callforjudgement »

I assume there's a regular scum nightkill here?

The setup is somewhat swingy, as town only have one mislynch. That can make the balance fairly hard to calculate. (Come to think of it, this game is more or less the exact opposite of a 7:2 vanilla game; instead of town winning with two correct lynches and scum winning with three mislynches, we have town winning with three correct lynches and scum winning with two mislynches.)

The basic Happily Ever After scenario (1:3 with a no-lynch being good for town and a no-kill being good for scum) is in full force here. As such, I'd recommend must-lynch must-kill, unless we want to intentionally break the symmetry as a method of adjusting the balance of the setup.

I don't think a direct EV calculation is the right thing to do here: after a correct lynch, if scum don't kill the other player who was targeted for a lynch (and they probably won't), the situation is now asymmetrical. Town has two strategies: including the same person in the lynch again, or lynching an entirely disjoint pair. There's no particular reason to expect those strategies to have the same EV as each other (in fact, they probably don't), so an EV calculation needs to take optimal town strategy into account rather than just assuming random lynches (a better way to think about it is that an EV calculation assumes random
reads
, but that town make full use of any setup-based breaking strategies). I'm a bit tired/busy to do that right now, though.
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· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:37 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

When a scum gets lynched, the second "lynched" player is 4.3x more likely to be town than scum (on day 1)
When a scum gets lynched, every other player is 3.4x more likely to be town than scum (on day 1)

Assuming this sort of math holds true for other days, it is mathematically always better to choose a brand new pair to lynch
The only problem being... both of the lynch choices are likely to be the two scummiest d1 players. So really, in practice, it should just be like a "oh, the other one flipped scum? Fine, you get like 1 point of towniness for sitting next to them", since that player is already >rand scum according to the reads of a majority of players
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:55 pm

Post by mith »

I like this one. And the EV calculation would indeed be nasty. Not today. Maybe sometime though.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:24 am

Post by BNL »

This game is being run in the Blitz queue at 3:7!

I have also changed the title of the setup to differentiate it from one in the wiki.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:32 am

Post by singletonking »

Bumping this. Should a 2v1 ending keep the double elimination or be changed to a standard single elimination?
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:56 am

Post by Isis »

balance aside the dynamic of all players wanting to vote the other two players is a really bad social deduction game phase
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