[SETUP] Anyone up to go crazy?

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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[SETUP] Anyone up to go crazy?

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:29 am

Post by Creature »

BlurbOnce upon a time there was a very small villager where nobody knew each other. All the peasants lived peacefully even though they never ever met each other. Until three ambitious men (and/or women) decided to dominate the villager. In the process, the villager's old wizard is hurt badly and has only one day left. Upon his/her death, (s)he'll perceive everyone's hearts and must choose a hero to find out the impure. It's up for the hero and the innocent villagers who never met each other before to find out the three big baddies.

Mechanics1x Innocent Child
9x Vanilla Town
3x Mafia Goon

Scum's factional kill N1 is basically locked on the IC.

At the start of N1, the IC will know everyone's alignments and must choose one town to succeed him/her.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:58 am

Post by BNL »

Does the next IC get also inherit this power?
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:01 am

Post by BNL »

I feel like this can be semi-broken. By selecting who is chosen as IC the existing IC can give the town a lot of information.

E.g. Among the remaining 11 people, choose a person (cyclically ignoring lynched person and IC) below a scum as the new IC
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:19 am

Post by Creature »

In post 1, BNL wrote:Does the next IC get also inherit this power?
No, it's only one IC who can select another.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:21 am

Post by Creature »

I don't think it's broken, but town can get plenty of conftown depending on how well they do D1.
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:32 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

This is one of those setups that's clearly blatantly scumsided
unless
you break it, so the main balance consideration is in just how much advantage you get from the break.

There are (12×11×10)÷(3×2×1) possible scumteams in this game, that's 220. Assuming that the D:1 lynch is on town (if it's on scum town should have no real problem winning from there), there will be (11×10×9)÷(3×2×1) or 165 possible scumteams going into N1. The IC can choose between 8 different VTs N1; therefore, we can organize the possible scumteams into 8 groups of (165÷8) = 21, indicating the group via the choice of Innocent Child, and at the start of D2 there will be only 21 possible scumteams remaining. (The actual Innocent Child advantage via which the chosen player can confirm themself as town is irrelevant here, as it must necessarily duplicate the information transmitted by the original IC via the choice; the original IC can't choose a scum player to be the backup IC.)

As an attempt to visualise how useful this information is, let's consider a possible strategy for the IC: out of the 11 remaining players, there must somewhere in the player list (cycling around the end if necessary) be a sequence of a Mafia player, followed by three VTs in a row (there are 8 VTs left and not enough Goons to separate them into four groups of two). One example of a possible plan would be "find such a situation in the player list, then choose the first of the three consecutive VTs as the backup Innocent Child". Town will be going into day 2 with a guilty and three innocents; thus at the start of day 3, town will have two confirmed innocents and 5 VTs, against scum's two Goons. That's equivalent to a 5:2 vanilla game with N1 and N2 skipped; especially given that the scum kills are effectively all forced, and yet town has been free to lynch scummy players and VIs, I'd consider this to be townsided in practice (despite the EV being below 50%), as town normally do very well when scum can't get rid of their key players.

However, the strategy considered there is a bit suboptimal, as it only narrows down the number of possible scumteams to (8×7)÷(2×1), or 28, whereas 21 is possible. That said, the difference between 28 and 21 doesn't seem so huge that I'd expect town to have a pure break on this; they can probably make the setup clearly townsided after a D:1 town lynch (and outright break it after a D:1 scum lynch), but not more than that. "Clearly townsided but not 100% broken" is probably not balanced enough to run, though (assuming that players would even enjoy playing a setup that worked like this).

My first thoughts about trying to balance this would be to remove one VT and the D:1 lynch. D:1 would therefore become a discussion period where players tried to suggest plans for N:1, tried to arrange plans so that scummier players ended up in scummier slots, etc., but that ends with no result once people are ready. That makes the control-of-deaths more balanced, too (as neither side has an influence on who dies until after the IC's supercop information becomes public).
scum
· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:38 am

Post by BNL »

The IC's role doesn't sound very fun to play as.

How about this modification:

3 Mafia
9 Town

The first time a Town is lynched, he instead survives, and gets that IC's powers.

The thematics are broken but this eliminates the unfun IC role.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:30 am

Post by Creature »

Okay, that's better.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:45 am

Post by Ramcius »

i was thinking and came up with 2 ideas:

a) 10 v 3 mountainous, first town to die at night gets to pick IC

b) keep IC at start, but don't reveal them. If they die during night, they can chose IC from living town players, but they lose this ability, if they reveal themselves as IC. It would make game little more crazy
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:30 am

Post by yessiree »

any mechanic involving someone knowing everyone's alignment and choosing an IC IS EXTREMELY BROKEN for reasons mentioned by callforjudgement

you are guaranteed 3 clears and 1 guilty
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:35 am

Post by yessiree »

because in the playerlist, there is a guaranteed pattern of ... | scum | town | town | town | ...
note you have to treat the playerlist as a circle by going back to the start after the end when looking for this pattern
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:54 pm

Post by mith »

FWIW, 3:9:1 with a bulletproof IC (which is effectively what this is for EV purposes, after fixing the broken part) has EV of 34.38%.

One way to fix the broken part is to let Mafia choose the next IC (effectively choosing their kill in advance)... which is what my recent setup suggestion (popcorn) is, basically. Another is to let the IC choose M+1 options for next IC and Mafia get to pick from those (potentially prevents Mafia from just picking the most beneficial player for them).

(The 3:9 first town lynch becomes IC idea is just not balanced.)
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