[FEBRUARY CHALLENGE] Voting!

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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Post Post #50 (ISO) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:37 pm

Post by BBmolla »

In post 49, Not Known 15 wrote:
In post 48, BBmolla wrote:If there is a unanimous vote on a player in the Wilderness (excluding the player being voted), that player is lynched at the end of the night phase.
That means if the Town puts two people into the Wilderness they vote each other and both get lynched, correct?
I’ll try to make wording more clear

If 8 people are in the Wilderness, in order to lynch a player, every single other player must vote that person, meaning 7 players need to vote one player. Technically unanimous means the player would have to vote himself which is all I meant to clarify.
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Post Post #51 (ISO) » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:44 pm

Post by BBmolla »

On the contrary, during the day it only takes each player getting one vote in order to be sent to The Wilderness. So Player A could vote Player B, Player B could vote A, they both go to the Wilderness. In theory everyone could just be voted into The Wilderness, but because you need at least one person not in The Wilderness who is town, that's suboptimal. There should be multiple votes on some players just as fillers.

Day votes are public if that's not clear.
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Post Post #52 (ISO) » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:33 am

Post by Jingle »

Hmm...

First, it's unclear, but I assume each guesser can only guess once.

Second, I wonder what forcing scummy players to make a guess in the thread does to confirm them as not Mafia Head. You could probably guarantee a D1 scumlynch.
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Post Post #53 (ISO) » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:49 am

Post by BBmolla »

In post 52, Jingle wrote:Hmm...

First, it's unclear, but I assume each guesser can only guess once.

Second, I wonder what forcing scummy players to make a guess in the thread does to confirm them as not Mafia Head. You could probably guarantee a D1 scumlynch.
I would just say fake Guesses are disallowed and result in Modkill.

Unless you think that’s a fun mechanic to include.
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Post Post #54 (ISO) » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:49 am

Post by Not Known 15 »

In post 51, BBmolla wrote:On the contrary, during the day it only takes each player getting one vote in order to be sent to The Wilderness. So Player A could vote Player B, Player B could vote A, they both go to the Wilderness. In theory everyone could just be voted into The Wilderness, but because you need at least one person not in The Wilderness who is town, that's suboptimal. There should be multiple votes on some players just as fillers.

Day votes are public if that's not clear.
Yeah, so I thought about the possible strategies and something horrible came up.
This setup isn't Mafia. At least it isn't how it should be played. The mafia can openwolf Day 1 and all be found out Day 1 and they can still win(headhunter has only 1/3 chance there). As long as 2 Mafia are alive they can send themselves to the Wilderness and... win...
Two things should be tweaked:
A lynch in the Wilderness needs two votes to go through.
I think there should be a possibility for the Town to make a Last Stand vote to single out all the remaining Mafia. If wrong, Mafia wins. If right, Town wins.
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Post Post #55 (ISO) » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:53 am

Post by BBmolla »

Other option is getting rid of Self Shot completely

This allows Wilderness results to be more controlled

Let me think on it.
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Post Post #56 (ISO) » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:23 am

Post by Jingle »

I'm opposed to modkills as a balancing agent. You could make it so that guesses are submitted via PM and a valid guess is published by the mod and not have to deal with modkills being in the setup rules.

I think modifying the wilderness is preferable than a hail mary, but that's just me. You could also make Wilderness lynch an N-M threshhold, where N is the number of players and M is the number of living mafia.
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Post Post #57 (ISO) » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:22 am

Post by Something_Smart »

three strikes2 Mafia Lovers
1 Town Innocent Child
7 Vanilla Townies

Nightless. Town win if a Mafia member is lynched. Mafia win if they are both alive at the start of Day 4.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #58 (ISO) » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:42 am

Post by Jingle »

Um... Doesn't that have an 83% town win rate?

2/7+5/7*1/3+5/7*2/3*2/5
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Post Post #59 (ISO) » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:47 am

Post by Something_Smart »

Your math is with 5 VT's, not 7.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #60 (ISO) » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:47 am

Post by implosion »

7s should be 9s bc the lynchpool is 9 people.

And the easier way to do the calculation is to calculate the scum EV which is just (7/9)(6/8)(5/7) = 5/12. So town EV would be ~58%.
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Post Post #61 (ISO) » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:49 am

Post by implosion »

Alternatively, the fun way to do the calculation is to say that town gets to pick 3 people out of 9 and the mafia win if they pick 3 townies, so mafia winrate is (7 choose 3) / (9 choose 3).
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Post Post #62 (ISO) » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:59 am

Post by northsidegal »

that doesn't seem more fun to me
wiki | modded | Newbie NewD3 Stats | scripts

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Post Post #63 (ISO) » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:15 am

Post by implosion »

that's okay, some people are incorrect about things sometimes!
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Post Post #64 (ISO) » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:29 am

Post by Not Known 15 »

In post 55, BBmolla wrote:Other option is getting rid of Self Shot completely

This allows Wilderness results to be more controlled

Let me think on it.
An organized town has a strategy.
1. Voting is not allowed prior to discussion.
2. 3 people are selected to go to the Wilderness. The 3 most scummy players. Whoever votes someone else is treated as confirmed Mafia.
Wilderness: The most scummy player is lynched. The players cross - shoot each other.
If this doesn't happen then there is a scum majority in the Wilderness. Then Headhunter shoots one of them, and five players are selected for the Wilderness. The town in the Wilderness kill the confirmed scum. Then town looks for the last scum.
Of course, should Headhunter be erroneously selected to go to the Wilderness (be one of the 3 most scummy) then they shoot immediately.
This variant has an optimal strategy closely following... established lynch practices.
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Post Post #65 (ISO) » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:49 am

Post by Jingle »

In post 63, implosion wrote:that's okay, some people are incorrect about things sometimes!
Yes. Subtraction is hard. :shifty:
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Post Post #66 (ISO) » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:15 pm

Post by BBmolla »

The Wilderness

14 players:

1 Mafia Head

2 Mafia Goons

1 Town Headhunter

10 Vanilla Townies

  • This game features
    The Wilderness
    .
    • All players may discuss and privately vote during the day phase. Votes are messaged privately to the moderator.
    • At deadline, the player who receives the most votes is lynched. In the case of a tie, the player to have reached that number of votes first is lynched.
    • Once all votes have been placed, any who recieved at least one vote and is not the lynchee is moved into
      The Wilderness
      , a Private Topic where all members may talk amongst themselves, for the night.
    • There are various things players may do in
      The Wilderness
      • Players may
        talk
        amongst themselves as much as they please.
      • All players within
        The Wilderness
        are participating in a game of
        "Ready, Aim, Fire!"
        that resolves upon the end of the night phase. They must privately submit one of the following actions:
        • Shoot PLAYER
          - Assuming the player is not protected or shoots themselves, the player dies.
        • Shoot SELF
          - If any amount of players shoot you, they die. If no one shoots you, you die.
      • Any invalid action will be switched to
        Shoot SELF
        .
      • Any shot player is killed and flips upon the start of the day phase.
      • The Wilderness
        is locked and is not to be used again. A new one is made for each night.
  • The
    Headhunter
    is an alternate win condition for the Town.
    • During the day, the
      Headhunter
      may privately message the moderator to guess the identity of the
      Mafia Head.
      If he is correct, town immediately win.
    • During the day, the
      Mafia Head
      may privately message the moderator to guess the identity of the
      Headhunter
      If he is correct, the
      Headhunter
      dies, and the
      Mafia Head
      becomes
      Deathproof
      .
      • Once
        Deathproof
        , the
        Mafia Head
        may still be voted into
        The Wilderness.

      • Once
        Deathproof
        , the Mafia win condition becomes White Flag.
    • The
      Mafia Head
      cannot
      Shoot SELF
      .
    • If the
      Headhunter
      shoots the
      Mafia Head
      in the
      The Wilderness
      and he dies, town immediately win.
    • Once a guess is made, the other Role may not guess.
    • If the guess is incorrect, the Mod posts in thread
      "An incorrect guess was made,"
      and the game continues.
  • Mafia do not have a nightkill.
  • If going into the night phase, all remaining town players are in
    The Wilderness
    , the game ends in a Mafia victory.
  • Town win if all Mafia are eliminated or one of the other Town win conditions are met.
  • Mafia win if they equal or exceed the number of remaining Town going into the dayphase or one of the other Town win conditions are met


Most of the time there will X players going to the wilderness where X is the number of Mafia, and that's probably fine.
Last edited by BBmolla on Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #67 (ISO) » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:37 am

Post by Not Known 15 »

In post 66, BBmolla wrote:
The Wilderness

14 players:

1 Mafia Head

2 Mafia Goons

1 Town Headhunter

8 Vanilla Townies

  • This game features
    The Wilderness
    .
    • All players may discuss and privately vote during the day phase. Votes are messaged privately to the moderator.
    • At deadline, the player who receives the most votes is lynched. In the case of a tie, the player to have reached that number of votes first is lynched.
    • Once all votes have been placed, any who recieved at least one vote and is not the lynchee is moved into
      The Wilderness
      , a Private Topic where all members may talk amongst themselves, for the night.
    • There are various things players may do in
      The Wilderness
      • Players may
        talk
        amongst themselves as much as they please.
      • All players within
        The Wilderness
        are participating in a game of
        "Ready, Aim, Fire!"
        that resolves upon the end of the night phase. They must privately submit one of the following actions:
        • Shoot PLAYER
          - Assuming the player is not protected or shoots themselves, the player dies.
        • Shoot SELF
          - If any amount of players shoot you, they die. If no one shoots you, you die.
      • Any invalid action will be switched to
        Shoot SELF
        .
      • Any shot player is killed and flips upon the start of the day phase.
      • The Wilderness
        is locked and is not to be used again. A new one is made for each night.
  • The
    Headhunter
    is an alternate win condition for the Town.
    • During the day, the
      Headhunter
      may privately message the moderator to guess the identity of the
      Mafia Head.
      If he is correct, town immediately win.
    • During the day, the
      Mafia Head
      may privately message the moderator to guess the identity of the
      Headhunter
      If he is correct, the
      Headhunter
      dies, and the
      Mafia Head
      becomes
      Deathproof
      .
      • Once
        Deathproof
        , the
        Mafia Head
        may still be voted into
        The Wilderness.

      • Once
        Deathproof
        , the Mafia win condition becomes White Flag.
    • The
      Mafia Head
      cannot
      Shoot SELF
      .
    • If the
      Headhunter
      shoots the
      Mafia Head
      in the
      The Wilderness
      and he dies, town immediately win.
    • Once a guess is made, the other Role may not guess.
    • If the guess is incorrect, the Mod posts in thread
      "An incorrect guess was made,"
      and the game continues.
  • Mafia do not have a nightkill.
  • If going into the night phase, all remaining town players are in
    The Wilderness
    , the game ends in a Mafia victory.
  • Town win if all Mafia are eliminated or one of the other Town win conditions are met.
  • Mafia win if they equal or exceed the number of remaining Town going into the dayphase or one of the other Town win conditions are met


Most of the time there will X players going to the wilderness where X is the number of Mafia, and that's probably fine.
Day 1, ten seconds after the start of the Day: "/Guess [name of Mafia Head] as Mafia Head"
Game over!
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Post Post #68 (ISO) » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:39 am

Post by Awoo »

The Boardroom


6 Townies

2 Mafia Goons

Daytalk
Nightless


During the day, one player is elected to go into the boardroom by majority vote. The elected player chooses two others to bring with him.

The game enters night phase for 2 IRL days and the thread is locked. During the night, the three players in the boardroom go into a private topic and participate in a 3-way vote and whoever gets 2 votes is lynched. If they don't reach a conclusion within 2 days, the mafia privately choose one of them to be lynched. To keep the timers flowing smoothly, this could be done any time during the night. The survivors return to the game after the timer is up, and it is announced which player was lynched, and the next day begins.

If two mafia and one townie enter the boardroom, the townie is automatically lynched without any discussion and the night phase still lasts 2 days.


Hopefully this meets the definition of a new associative group.

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Post Post #69 (ISO) » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:59 am

Post by BNL »

Ooh, that’s really interesting! I like it.
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Post Post #70 (ISO) » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:05 am

Post by Something_Smart »

So a scum lynch confirms two players as town, and scum can't kill them, which is game over...

Regardless of whether it's an associative group, you accidentally included Mafia Lovers :lol:
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #71 (ISO) » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:12 am

Post by BNL »

Oh yeah, that’s a major hole in the setup.

Remove 2 Mafia v 1 Town resulting in town dying and it should become roughly like 2:6 mountainous nightless?
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Post Post #72 (ISO) » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:38 am

Post by Something_Smart »

I know it wouldn't work for the challenge, but it would be interesting at 5:2 with the current rules. 4:2 with mafia lovers is balanced (Lovers Mafia), but I wonder if the ease with which selected scum can lynch townies (just add their buddy) and the lack of accountability for lynches would balance that.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #73 (ISO) » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:43 am

Post by Awoo »

The Boardroom 2: Corporate Secrets

6 Townies

2 Mafia Goons

Daytalk
Nightless


During the day, one player is elected to go into the boardroom by majority vote. The elected player chooses two others to bring with him.

The game enters night phase for 2 IRL days and the thread is locked. During the night, the three players in the boardroom go into a private topic and participate in a 3-way vote and whoever gets 2 votes is lynched. If they don't reach a conclusion within 2 days, the mafia privately choose one of them to be lynched.
The alignment of the lynched player is only revealed in the boardroom private topic.


To keep the timers flowing smoothly, this could be done any time during the night. The survivors return to the game after the timer is up, and it is announced which player was lynched
without an alignment flip
, and the next day begins.

If two mafia and one townie enter the boardroom, the townie is automatically lynched without any discussion and the night phase still lasts 2 days.


This should be a bit better.
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Post Post #74 (ISO) » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:49 am

Post by Something_Smart »

Okay, THAT's cool.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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