[SETUP] Guns & Roses

[FakeGod]

Everyone chooses a day and either a

gun

or a

rose

. This decision is sent to the mod and kept secret.

During their chosen day, players are revealed to have a gun or a rose.

People with

guns

have double-vote during their day, and 1-shot vig during their night.
People with

roses

have lynch immunity during their day, and night-kill immunity during their night.

I'm thinking a 3 Mafia vs 14 Town setup.

[singletonking]

Can’t Mafia keep choosing roses to win since they can’t ever be killed?

[Lycanfire]

The powers are day/night specific.



Are mafia able to act and kill?

[FakeGod]

Yes, they kill as normal.

[Lycanfire]

I think the question I asked and the one you thought I asked may be different. Are scum able to vig and kill in the same night? Is there a hard limit of 3 kills from the scumteam in a single night?

[FakeGod]

Oh, I don't know.

Do you think they should be gated?

[Awoo]

EVERYONE!

PICK!

GUN!

ON!

DAY!

ONE!

[FakeGod]

[Awoo]

ANYONE!
WHO!
DOESN'T!
HAVE!
A!
GUN!

IS!
SCUM!

[FakeGod]

It's true that if the players decide to collude, scum is in trouble.

Maybe I won't declare who picked what. Lynchproof and doublevotes are now invisible.

[Lycanfire]

I was thinking of game strategies to help anyone that wanted to calculate EVs, but Awoo said it more simply than I could.

It seems to me that early ability seeking behavior will be encouraged, due to the lynch mechanic and the lack of a rapport players will be able to build with one another in the pre-game. Once powers are chosen a strategy involving no lynches is probably off the table.

... Or anyone that doesn't have a gun is scum like Awoo said.

A night 0 start with a short pregame phase might be a bandage in some communities but I think you have to cut doublevotes all together on MS.

[FakeGod]

Invisible doublevotes sound like pain in the ass to mod.

What alternatives do you guys recommend?

[RadiantCowbells]

i would take protection as town and a gun as scum.

[the worst]

I'd just park roses

[RadiantCowbells]

have you not yet realized that you only get 1 day

[Lycanfire]

Some of those that work forces are the same that park roses
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me

[singletonking]

Oh, I somehow missed that each player chooses only one on only one day.
I don't think collusion is possible because choosing the power happens pregame.

I think it would be interesting if

guns

were revealed but

roses

are not revealed

[Lycanfire]

That's already the case. Guns are revealed through double vote. The dominant strategy would be D1/N1 guns. Town would prove they selected a gun (more protown than not dying which is for scummy mafias). Mafia would have to comply. This is the new game.

[singletonking]

Yeah this degenerates into a N1 killfest
You could rule "Everyone dies" as a Mafia win, but that doesn't fix the issue with the setup

Maybe this should be made similar to Diffusion of Power, the random night cop/doctor game

[FakeGod]

I could randomize the days, but then I feel like the whole point of the setup is undermined.

I'll keep thinking.

[implosion]

I like the idea.

Idea to avoid breaking strategy without undermining it: add a short (48h? 72h? less?) discussion phase to the start of the game, pre-d1. After this, each player chooses their gun or rose, and the mafia get a chance to intercept *every single player*. For each player, the mafia guess what day that player chose, and whether they chose gun or rose. For each player, if they're correct on both, they intercept it and that townie will not get it. I think this is better if the townie is not informed of this failure until their chosen day (though it could be fine to inform them immediately as well). Mafia should also be given the option to opt for neither (or they could just pick like day 1000, but better to make it explicit) if they want to fakeclaim that they were intercepted. But obviously they have to make that choice along with everyone else.

[FakeGod]

That is very interesting.

It does add an additional bit of overhead for the mod, to keep track of which player got what vs what mafia guessed, but it does solve the game-solve of d1 all guns.

However, I don't think it's a perfect solve, since I think the dominating (but not perfectly dominating) strategy becomes mafia to intercept d1 guns for every player, and every player to pick d2 guns.

[implosion]

If the mafia thinks that everyone is going to pick d2 guns, then they should intercept all of the d2 guns :p. Or if they're afraid of "all d1 guns" and "all d2 guns" as possibilities, they can intercept half the players as d1 guns and the other half as d2 guns.

I think the optimal strategy for town under that might be SOMETHING along the lines of "roll a die in your head; pick a gun for the day it lands on." Probably a 3-4 sided die. If each townie randomly picks a d1 gun, d2 gun or d3 gun, then the mafia will be able to intercept ~1/3 of them. They'd be able to choose if they want to e.g. intercept all of the d1 guns or intercept a fractional amount on each day, etc.

[implosion]

Another thing that might make sense is to buff roses, since in terms of raw power guns are probably stronger. Perhaps make them hidden; don't announce the lynch immunity or kill immunity, so that they have a chance of eating a scum nightkill if savvy/lucky town predicts a night they're gonna be shot. Probably other good ways as well, though it's certainly not necessary and might just make more sense if the setup were run a second time after 0-1 people picked roses the first time (which might not happen).

[FakeGod]

Interesting. Do you believe that invisible roses are better for town?

I'd predict that there are many more town-controlled vigs running around than scum controlled ones.