[Setup Concept] Twins

[mutantdevle]

This is more of a role concept than a setup concept tbh, and I'm just wondering how y'all think such a role would fit into a setup:

The role is a third party faction. This (loaf faction) got me thinking about this idea and I think that with a few adjustments this could be a genuinely fun 3rd party to play as. Basically, the twins are survivors. They don't care whether mafia or town has majority, they just want to be with each other. As such, they can only win if BOTH of them are alive at the end of the game. However, that leads to the problem of what happens if only 1 of them dies. It's not fun to keep playing if you can't win and I'd say it's too boring to have the 2nd twin just leave the game also (not to mention a boring way of handling the situation). So instead, I think it would make sense for the surviving twin to become distraught over their twins's death and turn to the life of being a serial killer (no bulletproof, just a night kill). They'll also have a PT to communicate in both day and night. Of course, if one partner wins as the SK then they both win.

I think that this makes for an interesting dynamic. Through the PT they can plan how to manipulate situations to try and ensure they aren't on the receiving end of votes. But there's a risk/reward involved with this. If they heavily defend each other, there's a higher chance their partner will remain alive. However, if they fail, then it's going to heavily implicate them as their partner meaning they won't get far as a SK. So do they distance themselves instead to maximise the chances as a SK?

I'm not sure whether or not the twins winning should prevent other factions from winning or, whilst not in SK form, they should have the chance to win alongside both other factions? Ultimately, their objective will be to end the game as quick as possible. If they can win alongside other factions, then the other factions would acknowledge this. Lynching 3 scum in a row ends the game quickest. But can the town trust that they'll work with them? Because if they side with the mafia then that's one less form of death. But if they claim their roles to the town and promise to help them then that can also eliminate the chance they get lynched which achieves the same effect. But if they claim, the mafia are likely to kill them if they try to act as confirmed 'town'. And if the mafia are losing, they're bound to want to activate a second night kill in order to boost their chances albeit at the risk of their own life. Not that it would matter, because as soon as 1 twin dies, if the town knows the other's identity they're just going to lynch them which plays heavily into the mafia's hands.


I doubt that just replacing 2 townies with this faction in a 13 player game would be balanced. So what roles would each other faction need to make it so? I personally think that this concept would do best without any PRs in the game tbh. So how many players would be needed to make the game balanced for everyone? If I'm ever bored I'll try and work out the EV but, in the meantime, general thoughts on this concept are appreciated. Maybe I'm alone in thinking that this would make for a fun 3rd party faction :P

[Awoo]

Wow, that setup looks horrible. I hope no one actually plays it.

Also you know that by definition, lovers both die when one of them dies? That's not swingy, that's uh... lovers. Turning a player into an SK randomly, now that's fucking swingy right there.

[Psyche]

think awoo is being overly blunt but definitely agree that serial killer conversion is quite a bit more swingy than the suicide lovers traditially do after a member's death
still, the situation is considerably less swingy than, say, just having a second mafia group in the game; this setup can be considered a weaker version of that
it's definitely not as horrible as what awoo is implying

[mutantdevle]

Lovers may not be the right term for it, but I didn't have any other ideas at the time. Perhaps 'twins' would be a more fitting name?

They don't have to necessarily become SKs. If y'all have another idea for what they could become when one of them dies then that'd be great.

The main concepts of the role are that A) They both have to be alive at the end of the game to win (initially), B) Them both dying when one does is a boring resolution, and C) There should still be a point for the surviving member to still play the game.

[Awoo]

I'm talking about the link in the OP, not the concept.

[Awoo]

Though I would like to say I 100% disagree with dying being a boring resolution. We already do it with mimes, traitors, the town when they cannot win etc. It's called endgaming. Changing win conditions are BAD.

[Psyche]

if the info about the shift is present in the original role pm, AND it's public information when the shift happens (one of the pairing has died/flipped), idk what makes it so bad

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah the wincon doesn’t change actually
The wincon is “at least one must endgame” which is a common wincon
This is a mafia team which only gains a nightkill when one of them dies, basically

[Psyche]

well, with one big exception that if neither dies they can with the town

[mutantdevle]

I'm talking about the link in the OP, not the concept.

Yeah, fair enough. EE isn't a mafia focussed forum. There's about 1 game every half a year or something like that, day phases are 72 hours and nobody takes it seriously. Naturally, almost every game that gets run there is crappy but it's still fun.

Though I would like to say I 100% disagree with dying being a boring resolution. We already do it with mimes, traitors, the town when they cannot win etc. It's called endgaming. Changing win conditions are BAD.

I consider it boring in the sense that we already have those roles that die. This concept would be nothing new if there wasn't a different resolution.

Yeah the wincon doesn’t change actually
The wincon is “at least one must endgame” which is a common wincon
This is a mafia team which only gains a nightkill when one of them dies, basically

well, with one big exception that if neither dies they can with the town

I think this is a good way of looking at it. Whilst both are alive, they're not a threat to the town. But the fact that they

could

be a threat to the town, and the fact that the mafia can actively make them a threat could cause some tensions. But does that make for a fun concept? I personally think it does but I don't know if others do. Would this concept actually work this way or would both the mafia and the town just leave them alone?

[BBmolla]

so basically a mafia faction that gains a nightkill when one of its members dies

[callforjudgement]

Please bear in mind that (even regular) survivors are a

huge

threat to the town, and a similar priority for lynching as scum are.

If the number of scum + survivors ever gets equal to or greater than the number of townies, the survivors can immediately win by intentionally throwing the game to the scumteam (this isn't a kingmaker situation, as the survivors can't engineer a town win without knowing who the scum are). Because of this, survivors and scum have an equal impact on the town's victory condition.

[RadiantCowbells]

Please bear in mind that (even regular) survivors are a

huge

threat to the town, and a similar priority for lynching as scum are.

If the number of scum + survivors ever gets equal to or greater than the number of townies, the survivors can immediately win by intentionally throwing the game to the scumteam (this isn't a kingmaker situation, as the survivors can't engineer a town win without knowing who the scum are). Because of this, survivors and scum have an equal impact on the town's victory condition.

this is a terrible way of looking at it btw

[RadiantCowbells]

whether you lynch the slot or ignore it doesn't change the amount of mislynches that you have even if you assume that the survivors are 100% going to scumside.

and if you lynch the survivors you're going to lose valuable townies that would otherwise participate in the lynches and help town win.

[Psyche]

are you saying that the

survivors

would otherwise participate in the lynches and help town win?