[MAY CHALLENGE]

[popsofctown]

Are semi-opens allowed? My post 14 has mutated into one.

[Jingle]

Not only are they allowed, they were explicitly required a couple of months ago.

OTOH, if you wouldn't mind updating your setup with major changes into new posts it helps me to see where your thought process leads and also I'm more likely to actually realize you updated your setup. (I don't look back at the early pages as much.) If not it's cool, I just think it's easier if we can look back at what has changed to get an idea of what you actually want in your setup while giving advice.

[callforjudgement]

Dragon Capturer v3

11 players

1 Dragon

2 Mafia Goons

8 Vanilla Townies

In addition to voting for lynches, the Town must also vote to Capture (jailkeep) a player. Capturing is by plurality vote and is decided when the lynch is decided.

A Capture vote can either use bold e.g.

CAPTURE: TemporalLich

or hurt tags e.g. HURT: TemporalLich

You can't vote to lynch and Capture the same player.

In addition to the factional nightkill, the Mafia may attempt a factional Capture. The mafia may multitask.

If the Mafia Captures the Dragon with the factional Capture, the Dragon exits the game in a loss and the Mafia gets a 1-shot daykill to be used in the Mafia PT.

The Dragon instantly loses if Captured. The Dragon wins if the game ends before this happens or the Dragon dies.

Mafia win when they outnumber Town or equal Town.

Town win when the Mafia are dead or the Dragon is Captured by the Capture vote.

Mafia may privately communicate at any time.

I really really really wanna break that. But I don't see a way to. :(

NK15, CFJ ATTACK!

If one of the Mafia members dies, the other is pretty much screwed; town's factional JK confirms one player as town every night if the scum kill goes through, so the game pretty much turns into Nightless whether scum kills or not (if scum kills, they pretty much have to kill in the confirmed townies to prevent a town auto-win, and yet those were players that town thought were scummy).

Scum's choice of capture targets seems pretty weird; their choice only does anything if it's the Dragon, so it all comes down to which players would be most beneficial for scum to eliminate

if

they're the Dragon. That's probably a prediction for town's capture choice the next day (town capturing the dragon is an immediate town win, so scum need to prevent that).

Whether the Dragon wins or not seems pretty much random. They're probably best off playing as an Unjester and hoping to eat the scum nightkill, because if they end up on town's lynch list, it'll probably be a coinflip which of the scummy players gets lynched and which gets captured.

[Something_Smart]

I had a silly idea. I don't know if this will be my final submission but I want to at least write it down.

Undertale Semi-Open

2 Mafia Goons

8 Vanilla Townies

1 Town Character

(One randomly chosen out of six options that will be explained later)

Each day, town must vote to

Kill

one player (HURT: or VOTE: ) or

Spare

one player (HEAL: ). Votes are made to either Kill a specific player or Spare a specific player, and a player can only have one vote total across both options. This is mandatory so if no majority is reached on either option by deadline, plurality wins out. The mafia can kill a player each night, prior to Night 4. (Obviously, this does not count as a capital-K Kill for any other mechanics.)

If a player is

Killed

, their role is revealed and they take no further part in the game.

If a player is

Spared

, their role is not revealed, and they are temporarily removed from the game. However, they may possibly rejoin the game, if the

Core

is reached.

If both mafia members are Killed, town immediately wins. If both mafia members are Spared, mafia immediately wins. Otherwise, the

Core

is reached immediately after the end of Day 4. At this point, one of three things will happen:

Pacifist Route:

If no players were Killed, the game enters the Pacifist Ending. There is no Night 4 kill. If all four Spared players were town, town immediately wins. Otherwise, all players still in the game are immediately removed from the game without flipping, and the Spared players are returned to the game. The game then continues with only the Spared players alive.

Neutral Route:

If at least one player was Spared and at least one player was Killed, the game enters the Neutral Ending. All Spared players rejoin the game, and the number of Spared mafia members (but not their identities) is revealed. The mafia get one kill on Night 4, plus one more if a mafia member was Spared. If this causes mafia to gain parity they win immediately, otherwise, the game continues with the previous living players and the Spared players both alive.

Genocide Route:

If no players were Spared, the game enters the Genocide Ending. There is no Night 4 kill. The game continues with no further change.

After the

Core

is reached, regardless of the ending, the game will continue as a normal game of mafia, with lynches and nightkills, and no-lynching allowed. Mafia win at parity, town win eliminating all mafia. (In the Pacifist Route lynching can be reflavored as

Saving

because, you know, Pacifist.)

The possible Town Characters are:

• Toriel: As long as no player has been Killed, Toriel can protect another player from a kill each night.
  
• Alphys: If the
  Core
  is reached in a Pacifist Route and Alphys is still in the game, she can immediately choose another player still in the game to be Spared, causing the Pacifist Ending to be played out with five players instead of four.
  
• Papyrus: On each even night, if at least one player has been Spared and at least one player has been Killed, Papyrus will learn the alignment of all Spared players.
  
• Asgore: If the
  Core
  is reached in a Neutral Route and Asgore is still in the game, he may jailkeep one player each night (starting Night 5).
  
• Undyne: On Night 2, if no player has been Spared, Undyne may choose any player, including herself, to be permanently bulletproof. They are not informed of this. This goes away if a player is ever Spared.
  
• sans: If the
  Core
  is reached in a Genocide Route and Sans is still in the game, he can immediately kill one player.

[popsofctown]

I can go with the convention of reposting.
This is what I currently favor the most as a submission.

V2 was the same as this, but with secret captains and key re-gifting. Bad idea.

Titanzar Mafia V3

Semi-open
1

Town Voting Captain

2

Voting

Captains

of

Random

Alignment

: Town, Scum, Spaceship Lyncher, or Spaceship Unlyncher

8 Town Passengers

2 Scum Passengers

Evil saboteurs rigged the engine of the Titanzar cruise spacecraft to explode soon! Captains must go down with the ship, but some passengers can be saved in the limited escape pods. A good captain would help save the passengers that aren't part of the organized crime that ruined the engine... but it's not clear all of our captains are good..

Each day, all players collectively vote one player to grant an escape pod key. The voted player will receive the key and be scheduled to escape when the ship is going to explode. A captain can never escape in an escape pod, they must go down with the ship. They can vote, but can't be voted.
When six escape pod keys have been distributed each passenger holding a key gets into an escape pod. Then, one of the town captains yanks one escape pod passenger back into the ship and sets the autopilot of the escape pod to a well-known comet instead. (The survivors will never be discovered and rescued unless we make something noticeable happen in this star system, too bad if that means one fewer pod!)

Then the pods land on a nearby desert planet, and the space ship explodes killing and flipping all 3 captains and the 5 remaining passengers.

Each captain beyond the first has a randomized alignment, decided by a d18.
1-9 Town
10-12 Scum
13- 14 Evil Spaceship Lyncher
15 Good Spaceship Lyncher
16-17 Evil Spaceship Unlyncher
18 Good Spaceship Unlyncher

Lyncher and Unlyncher do not receive their "good" or "evil" flavor in their role pm, only in their flip. Spaceship Lynchers win the game if their target dies in the spaceship explosion and lose if their target survives the spaceship explosion. Spaceship Unlynchers win the game if their target survives the spaceship explosion and lose if their target dies in the spaceship explosion. "Good" flavored roles are targeted in a way that benefits the town win condition.
When Lynchers and Unlynchers flip, the survivors learn whether they were Good or Evil, but the survivors do not learn who the target was.
After escaping the explosion, the five players living on the desert planet play a standard game of mafia with nightkills.

[popsofctown]

Undertale mafia seems like it has lots of even player number days in it.

[Jingle]

Toriel: As long as no player has been Killed, Toriel can protect another player from a kill each night.
Alphys: If the Core is reached in a Pacifist Route and Alphys is still in the game, she can immediately choose another player still in the game to be Spared, causing the Pacifist Ending to be played out with five players instead of four.
Papyrus: On each even night, if at least one player has been Spared and at least one player has been Killed, Papyrus will learn the alignment of all Spared players.
Asgore: If the Core is reached in a Neutral Route and Asgore is still in the game, he may jailkeep one player each night (starting Night 5).
Undyne: On Night 2, if no player has been Spared, Undyne may choose any player, including herself, to be permanently bulletproof. They are not informed of this. This goes away if a player is ever Spared.
sans: If the Core is reached in a Genocide Route and Sans is still in the game, he can immediately kill one player.

First of all, the numbers on this seem . If you go with the pacifist route, it's the goal to BARELY have a majority of town players for the last phase, which is pretty :/

Alphys is a named townie. If you go pacifist route, she ALWAYS claims day 4 and gets saved. If she chooses to add to the Spared pool, odds are she's adding mafia. (2 mafia spared ever means that there's a maf win, so you're going from 1/4 max mafia to potential autolose if Alphys picks the second scum. If there aren't scum in the 4 original spares, it's already a town autowin.)
Papyrus and Asgore both seem strong if you go into Neutral from 3 spare/1 kill.
sans is a vig or a named townie, which means he's identical to Alphys in the pacifist route.
Undyne is a deathproof townie (assuming they survive D1)

Optimal strat is probably Spare->Spare->Spare->Claim if not Papyrus/Asgore ->Spare claim or kill if no claim, obviously tailored if someone flips. If a named player (other than the mentioned) is about to be spared, they claim and get spared anyway. Kill D4 if no claims made at that point.

Undyne is the only one for which this strategy doesn't get the most out of the role (1/6) and even then, the

chance

of a bulletproof IC isn't worth losing the utility from every other role IMO.

[Jingle]

Undertale mafia seems like it has lots of even player number days in it.

It shouldn't, no. It still has a Lynch/NK, it's just that some of the lynched players can come back later.

Only reason you have evens is pacifist ending (in which case it's just MYLO, unless pacifist becomes nightless), successful Doc or Successful JK. Which is fine.

[popsofctown]

Undertale mafia seems like it has lots of even player number days in it.

It shouldn't, no. It still has a Lynch/NK, it's just that some of the lynched players can come back later.

Only reason you have evens is pacifist ending (in which case it's just MYLO, unless pacifist becomes nightless), successful Doc or Successful JK. Which is fine.

Genocide route is also evens, isn't it?

[Jingle]

sans is the only character for which you go genocide route ever, and he vigs.

Also, genocide route is Lynch 4 Kill 3, so you enter the core at 2 alive. Sans literally says if you have gotten to the genocide route and Sans is still alive, town wins.

[popsofctown]

Oh.
That sounds boring.

It'd take a lot of work and maybe be impossible, but maybe the Named Townie issue could be removed from the setup by making a full setup of characters with fully or mostly mutually exclusive triggering conditions, and no guarantees about their alignment. So you know there's a Sans in the game, you know he will kill someone if you take the genocide route, but you have no info regarding whether Sans is town or scum. And then you engineer it to not be too rolemadnessy, Sans can't actually kill anyone unless Papyrus was Killed, and wouldn't you know it, Papyrus is the other guy with a genocide route ability, etc.

[Jingle]

That setup would probably just be better as a closed, tbh. (Which is a thing, we've had an undertale mafia before and it worked well iirc.)

Also, named townie isn't an 'issue' here. It's just a thing with opens.

[RadiantCowbells]

we've had an undertale mafia before and it worked well iirc.

[Jingle]

blah

Eh, given that scum is considerably more likely to catch the dragon than town is and they get 2 functional extra kills from it, I don't really see the admittedly high utility of the towncapture as an issue. It's only super good for town after a scum lynch. If scum is lynched D1, the setup turning into 1v8 with every scumkill confirming a town and a potential for a free doublekill down the line seems harsh, but not unreasonable.

[Jingle]

I can go with the convention of reposting.
This is what I currently favor the most as a submission.

V2 was the same as this, but with secret captains and key re-gifting. Bad idea.

Titanzar Mafia V3

Semi-open
1

Town Voting Captain

2

Voting

Captains

of

Random

Alignment

: Town, Scum, Spaceship Lyncher, or Spaceship Unlyncher

8 Town Passengers

2 Scum Passengers

Evil saboteurs rigged the engine of the Titanzar cruise spacecraft to explode soon! Captains must go down with the ship, but some passengers can be saved in the limited escape pods. A good captain would help save the passengers that aren't part of the organized crime that ruined the engine... but it's not clear all of our captains are good..

Each day, all players collectively vote one player to grant an escape pod key. The voted player will receive the key and be scheduled to escape when the ship is going to explode. A captain can never escape in an escape pod, they must go down with the ship. They can vote, but can't be voted.
When six escape pod keys have been distributed each passenger holding a key gets into an escape pod. Then, one of the town captains yanks one escape pod passenger back into the ship and sets the autopilot of the escape pod to a well-known comet instead. (The survivors will never be discovered and rescued unless we make something noticeable happen in this star system, too bad if that means one fewer pod!)

Then the pods land on a nearby desert planet, and the space ship explodes killing and flipping all 3 captains and the 5 remaining passengers.

Each captain beyond the first has a randomized alignment, decided by a d18.
1-9 Town
10-12 Scum
13- 14 Evil Spaceship Lyncher
15 Good Spaceship Lyncher
16-17 Evil Spaceship Unlyncher
18 Good Spaceship Unlyncher

Lyncher and Unlyncher do not receive their "good" or "evil" flavor in their role pm, only in their flip. Spaceship Lynchers win the game if their target dies in the spaceship explosion and lose if their target survives the spaceship explosion. Spaceship Unlynchers win the game if their target survives the spaceship explosion and lose if their target dies in the spaceship explosion. "Good" flavored roles are targeted in a way that benefits the town win condition.
When Lynchers and Unlynchers flip, the survivors learn whether they were Good or Evil, but the survivors do not learn who the target was.
After escaping the explosion, the five players living on the desert planet play a standard game of mafia with nightkills.

Spaceship lyncher and unlyncher probably just always claim, tbh. Lyncher target has a 2/3 chance of being scum, which is better than random by a considerable amount. Unlyncher target (if claimed) is confirmed post explosion. Both seem like they're really annoying for scum. To fix this, I'd suggest making the target's alignment irrelevant to the roll and just having Lyncher/Unlyncher Captains. Even still, they probably should just claim and agree to townside if the town agrees to let them win with them.

[popsofctown]

I don't like for the lynchers to claim day 1. (actually, I can imagine a setup where I would like it, just not this one)
I set it up the other way, any given lyncher has a 1/3rd chance that their target is scum because the lyncher has a 2/3rds chance to be born evil. But actually that is still higher than 1/5, now that I look at it..

The unlynchers work, there is a 2/3rds chance they are trying to save only part of the scumteam, revealing they are trying to save a 67% scum amongst a town of 20% scums does not make their target attractive for reeiving a key.

I like the lynchers way less anyway, so I'm inclined to just cut them.

[Jingle]

You still as town want the unlynchers to claim and to save their targets, because when they flip as good/evil it confirms the alignment of their target. At worst, that turns 5p LYLO into 5p LYLO with a conftown. At best, it makes the game autowin for town.

Seems like other than an interesting fakclaim choice for scum they don't actually change much in the setup though, so removing them or making their target unconfirmed and normal randomization both seem like completely fine options to fix that and maybe make them interesting.

[popsofctown]

Ooooh I didn't think about that.

I do like the setup a lot just with straight town and scum captains, I don't think the unlynchers or lynchers were critical.

I'll simmer a bit about other elements too for my next revision.

[Jingle]

FWIW, I think scum captain is the most interesting role to play in the setup.

[Something_Smart]

Optimal strat is probably Spare->Spare->Spare->Claim if not Papyrus/Asgore ->Spare claim or kill if no claim, obviously tailored if someone flips. If a named player (other than the mentioned) is about to be spared, they claim and get spared anyway. Kill D4 if no claims made at that point.

What makes you say that? I don't really think this is optimal.
On Pacifist, town EV in post-Core MYLO is 1/3, because they no-lynch and force a kill first. That doesn't change if the PR claims D4 and is spared because they are always the kill.
On Neutral, did you forget that scum get to kill after D4? Both Papyrus and Asgore will die before they can do anything if they claim D4. (Papyrus won't even get N2 info because it was still Pacifist at that point.)

(And by the way, the issue in Pacifist you pointed out where the last day is 3:2 was very much intentional. Have you ever played Reverse Mafia? It's a very cool negative feedback mechanism, and it helps to balance out the fact that Pacifist almost certainly has the highest EV.)

[Something_Smart]

Jingle, if you want to help me work on this setup more, I can make a thread for it. I feel the idea is very cool and you're probably right that the mechanics are not ironed out in the best way. (I also don't really care if it remains challenge legal. I care more about making a good setup than winning the challenge.)

[Irrelephant11]

chaos vs. order

5 Order Goons
6 Chaos Townies

During the day, lynch a player
During the night, if Order is equal to Chaos, one goon must flee. Otherwise mafia nightkill a townie.

Chaos town wins by consecutively lynching 3 players of alternating alignments
Order scum wins by consecutively lynching 3 players of the same alignment.

In a draw, the team that was lynched more often loses.

Is this more balanced? Working on it...

[Jingle]

Yes. Does the game end after Lynch 5 or is the last surviving player lynched? I assume the former, given the draw criteria, but it is worth asking.

5 lynches, each team has a 25% of a D3 win, a 12.5% chance of a D4 win, and a 6.25% chance of a D5 win. Therefore there's a 12.5% chance of a tie. Within that 12.5 is a slight preference towards a scumwin, but not a large one.

[Jingle]

Undertale Brain Dump:

I'm fine with starting another thread for this, I just had already decided to do this when I saw that.

Spoiler: Trivial analysis setups

Genocide: Toriel, Alphys, Papyrus, Asgore

7v2 with a named townie, significantly scumsided.

Pacifist: Alphys, Papyrus, Asgore, Undyne, sans

7v2 with a named townie, vote to save mechanic for first 4 days.

Neutral: Alphys, sans, Undyne (inactive), Toriel (inactive)

7v2 with a named townie. One day (at least) is a no lynch, no kill on N4 Significantly scumsided.

Spoiler: sans Genocide

7v2 with a named townie. If the named townie would be endgamed, instead the named townie wins. Sans should never claim unless about to be lynched or 3p LYLO. Still significantly scumsided.

Spoiler: Toriel

Pacifist: As with trivial pacifist, but with Doctor.

Neutral: As with trivial Neutral, but with X shot doc. Still kind of scumsided.

Spoiler: Papyrus

Neutral: If Papyrus survives N4, town probably wins. Otherwise, strictly worse than Genocide route, thus Papyrus NEVER CLAIMS pre N4.

Spoiler: Asgore

Neutral: If Asgore survives N4, difficult slog for town. If town lynch, and mafia saved, D4 starts with 3v2. If 2 townlynches, already endgamed. If Asgore doesn't survive N4, scum probably ROFLstomp. Very swingy based on whether town ever spares scum.

Spoiler: Undyne

Active:

Neutral: Same as Neutral but with full BP named town. Strictly worse than Genocide.
Genocide: 7v2 with full BP IC.

tl;dr: most of the setups are probably scumsided. I think I've convinced myself that Asgore probably claims and gets spared D4 since the potential for scum sweep with Asgore neutral is really strong. Pacifist unless Papyrus is probably still the most viable choice for town.

[Something_Smart]

viewtopic.php?f=115&t=79730
And, I think you got the faction ratios wrong... it's 9:2, not 7:2

It doesn't affect most of your analysis but it makes all the setups less scumsided.